agni wrote: << how you expect to "secure the channel" and how can you identify who is who or what is what ? >>
Lynne wrote: << I find this to be extremely worrisome. When you open yourself up like this, you are basically inviting STS participation. I would really think twice before doing this. You never know who'll pop in. >>
agni and Lynne (and others) seem to be pointing out that we don't really understand anything about popping open channels and communicating telepathically. The C experiment is one of long duration, a single channel, and carefully "verified" as well as can be. LordBucket, I don't know if you've read CHANNEL WATCH 013 - Parts 1 and 2 (in this forum section http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/signs/forum/viewforum.php?id=43), but it goes into why we think it might be easy for this kind of communication to be compromised easily by 4D STS. I tend to agree that we, as mere beginners, could be fooled and distracted quite easily.
I'm not disparaging the idea, just trying to understand, and wondering if this concern has been considered fully. We know there are loads of people out practicing supraliminal communication without a clue who they're talking to.
Lynne wrote: << I find this to be extremely worrisome. When you open yourself up like this, you are basically inviting STS participation. I would really think twice before doing this. You never know who'll pop in. >>
agni and Lynne (and others) seem to be pointing out that we don't really understand anything about popping open channels and communicating telepathically. The C experiment is one of long duration, a single channel, and carefully "verified" as well as can be. LordBucket, I don't know if you've read CHANNEL WATCH 013 - Parts 1 and 2 (in this forum section http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/signs/forum/viewforum.php?id=43), but it goes into why we think it might be easy for this kind of communication to be compromised easily by 4D STS. I tend to agree that we, as mere beginners, could be fooled and distracted quite easily.
I'm not disparaging the idea, just trying to understand, and wondering if this concern has been considered fully. We know there are loads of people out practicing supraliminal communication without a clue who they're talking to.
Well, you've just provided enough serious concerns to make any rational human being want to run a mile from this idea IMO. All of it sounds like some kind of sordid internet chat room meet up where everyone's most intimate parts are exposed to one another and no one in control except the most psychopathically-minded.LordBucket said:
Geez. Count me out.
Joe
L
LordBucket
Guest
Absolutely. The question is: what is your perception of "self?"
Are you unwilling to communicate with yourself, because you are STS?
In my mind, some of this appears to support what I'm proposing, some of it contradicts, some of it is off-base. Keep in mind that I'm not proposing contact to an outside 'other' at all. I'm proposing contact between "we, us, ourselves." There may be risk in individual contact to the network, but if Ra suggests that we channel in 'groups,' I don't see any better way of accomplishing the 'group' than by establishing a network of 'us.' If five people in a room is less susceptible to influence than one person singly, is it reasonable that the collective network of all of humanity would be even less susceptible?
I'm fairly irrelevant to the proposal. You wouldn't want to make contact with "me." But you might want to make contact with "humanity."
To omit the risks and present only the benefits would have been an untruth that would have corrupted the potential of the seed.
I believe so. Having one's 'circuitry fried' is a very real possibility. Though, personally I'm far more concerned about the systemic risks than the individual ones.
Fair enough. Nobody should be convinced to participate in such a thing
Bucket Man
Maybe an analogy might clarify this exchange. What you propose sounds like : we have walkie talkies (but no batteries), anyway let's try to talk to each other through the walkie talkie.LordBucket said:
The Work might provide the batteries enabling walkie talkies (higher intellectual centers) discussions.
By the way the mission of this forum : "building up colinear objectivity" might not be very far away from this higher centers egregore.
agni
Dagobah Resident
This STS is part of me. I have no choice in communicating with it. Do I need willingly communicate with additional STS? I don’t know about you, but I’d rather not. I would rather be communicating with STO. Besides, don’t you have enough STS caused thoughts in your head ?
It’s not an idea of telepathic communication being wrong, question is are you ready for this ? Are you sure it’s not going to mess up your psyche ? STS can do pretty nasty stuff to your head. Will you be able to deal and handle this ?
The problem is we do not live in a natural environment. We live in the matrix or World 96 of Gurdjieff, (the level of the moon or the world of 'false personality') and so we are literally on the butt end of the universe. In the matrix ‘absurdity’ reaches is limit. So how can you form an objective ‘telepathic network' when you are beginning from the maximum level of absurdity to begin with?LordBucket said:
Surely you would be deceived and how would you know the difference? By what method could you make proper differentiations between what is real and what isn’t real (imagination). To add to the problem how do you know that some kind of technology will not be used to subvert such a group using “synthetic telepathy" to make you think you are telepathic? Just implant a thought in one persons head and then simultaneously plant the same thought in another's head and suddenly you have “telepathic contact.' What criteria do you use to make proper differentiations between what is real telepathy and what is not? Then there is the ego that wants special “super powers' and telepathy might be one way that the ego will use to make itself special since it will put up a fight to the very end for its own survival.
It seems to me that getting caught up in super-sensory experiences and telepathy experiments is to ask to become enslaved by them. Yep, the doctor who is experimenting will, methinks, become the patient!
Maybe as we become more aware we can become more telepathic naturally, in the same way that chemicals can develop new properties when fused together but to “seek telepathy' is, in my view, seeking enslavement and opening oneself (or a group) up to ponerization.
L
LordBucket
Guest
I suppose if I thought that were an accurate appraisal of our situation, I might agree with you. :P
Well, like you said previously:
I've considered the possibility that pursuing what I've proposed as an end unto itself may be seeking 'symptoms' of a state rather than the state itself, but I'm not convinced it's not possible, nor am I convinced there's no value in the attempt. As I said in my initial post, though, to date my own personal efforts have been inadequete. I suspect it's something that's possible for an individual to pioneer on behalf of the group, but an individual trying to build a network is more than a little bit self-contrary.
I feel the discussion of the original topic is approaching a close, but if we don't mind a little tangent...
...would you stop if you could...?
Why are you here then? Why are you talking to me? Do you avoid talking to people on the street? They're all STS. Do you have friends? Family? Pets? Aren't they all STS, too?
I don't subscribe to this way of thinking. STS is part of my being. I don't think of it as some vague and nebulous "other" that is "out there, somewhere" trying to "get" me.
Oh...there may very well be dark and nefarious STS things out there trying to get me...but at some point, you may have to face the notion that you are the darkness from which you flee. I don't think enlightenment is likely to come from denying and ignoring your own self. With free will comes the capacity to change your nature...but it might help to know what it is first.
But, you do. In fact, you've already demonstrated it by virtue of your existence here in this realm. What is third density, if not a state of fractionalized awareness of "All?"
But do we really want to fractionalize ourselves even more?
Have the courage to look into your own heart.
Couldn't this reasoning be applied to just about anything? You and I presumably live in more or less the same realm of absurdity. If I can't be objective about my pursuits, what makes you think you can be objective about yours? Even if we conclude that neither of us can be objective, what exactly do you propose? Sit around and do nothing? Wait and hope for the best? Listen to a guru and hope that fate delivered us to the right one?
There are times when even incorrect action is better than no action at all. When you put your hand on the stove, it may be uncomfortable, but if you pay attention you might just learn something in the process.
What exactly is 'unnatural' about seeking something? Are you only an observer, or are you also a participant in this universe?
...if I may quote your signature...
Bucket Man
Even if we disregard everything that was responded previously, what Kenlee just said contains clues enough for anyone who knows how to listen properly
LordBucket:
So when you look into your heart, what are the reasons you want to start telepathically comunicating with others?
LordBucket:
So when you look into your heart, what are the reasons you want to start telepathically comunicating with others?
Adaryn
The Living Force
Sure... so, we can also seek to astral travel, or why not channeling ?LordBucket said:
The way I understand it, is before seeking to "do" anything that *beforehand* requires a mastering of the 3rd level stuff, why not FIRST mastering the 3rd level stuff ? It sounds logical, doesn't it ?
I would go for the fact that seeking any "capacity" that doesn't comes naturally, as the result of the process of the Work on the 3rd lower level AND its limitations, is as Kenlee said a way to enslavement.
I agree with others - most people on this planet cannot even communicate VERBALLY - look at the chaos already on this planet as a result of people's inability to communicate verbally because of confusions and distortions and inability to think clearly or understand most things clearly or objectively. Much of this is a result of the pathocracy distorting concepts and ideas and understandings and words, and much of it is simply our own confusion and STS tendencies that result in wishful thinking and programs etc. They say, "as above so below". Talking telepathically will at best enhance the chaos, which is a result of corrupted and confused and ignorant thinking, it won't make things "clear". Clarity and understanding comes from working on yourself and getting your own mind in order, and when our minds are capable of functioning objectively and consciously, it won't matter what form of communication we use.
And as others have already said, we are not talking telepathically in this world and look at how easily the pathocracy controls us because our minds are weak, confused, emotional, and have a tendency to believe and assume. We will be much more easy to control if the psychopaths are given the opportunity to LITERALLY "get into our heads". They are very influencial verbally and in writing, and very intimidating and can really throw a person off balance and befuddle someone's mind. Imagine the power they will hold when they are able to transmit their distortions directly into your mind. The "psychic communication" is not better in and of itself, it is only better if the population is ready on many other levels for this. Otherwise it only ENHANCES whatever the situation is on the ground. If the situation is confusion, chaos, manipulation, lies, control, etc - this will only be enhanced and much more effective when they are made much more "direct". Just as you enhance your ability to communicate, you enhance the ability of the liars to be much more effective as well. As above, so below.
Our problem is not lack of communication - our inability to communicate clearly stems from our inability to think clearly. We gotta fix that first, I don't see how anything else can be fixed or improved without learning to think clearly and critically first.
And as others have already said, we are not talking telepathically in this world and look at how easily the pathocracy controls us because our minds are weak, confused, emotional, and have a tendency to believe and assume. We will be much more easy to control if the psychopaths are given the opportunity to LITERALLY "get into our heads". They are very influencial verbally and in writing, and very intimidating and can really throw a person off balance and befuddle someone's mind. Imagine the power they will hold when they are able to transmit their distortions directly into your mind. The "psychic communication" is not better in and of itself, it is only better if the population is ready on many other levels for this. Otherwise it only ENHANCES whatever the situation is on the ground. If the situation is confusion, chaos, manipulation, lies, control, etc - this will only be enhanced and much more effective when they are made much more "direct". Just as you enhance your ability to communicate, you enhance the ability of the liars to be much more effective as well. As above, so below.
Our problem is not lack of communication - our inability to communicate clearly stems from our inability to think clearly. We gotta fix that first, I don't see how anything else can be fixed or improved without learning to think clearly and critically first.
agni
Dagobah Resident
I would bring it to perfect balance, if I could.
Do not confuse our 3d interactions vs. telepathic communication. Words are quite different from thoughts.
I am aware that all is one. I am not fleeing from it, what happens happens. It is what it is. This is not a question of ignoring STS. You are talking about direct and willing telepathic link to STS.
Do you know what it is when you receive personolized STS attention ? When they directly "work on you" ?
You are right from absolute standpoint. Level of my awarenes does not allow me to make a clear choice yet.
But it does not mean you have to constantly burn yourself or try to experiment with high teperature ovens to learn the lesson or get more out of it. To be aware that I get burned by oven I do not need to touch it from time to time. It's not because I am ignoring it, it's because there is no need there for me ! If it's going to happen accidently, be it. But I am not going to be looking towards burning myself intentionaly !
Cyre2067
The Living Force
Overall its seems like a bad idea and anyone who's been around the material here long enough will see why.
Bucket Man, if you can't understand why perhaps you should read the wave and adventure series, most of us here have already and they both illuminate numerous reasons why the kind of activity you're promoting is dangerous.
Bucket Man, if you can't understand why perhaps you should read the wave and adventure series, most of us here have already and they both illuminate numerous reasons why the kind of activity you're promoting is dangerous.
Tigersoap
The Living Force
Imagine if we could share our thoughts right know, I think we'd go insane with all the chatter going on.
It would be like hearing a thousand radio stations all tuned up to something different.
I would not want to impose my insanity on others. Others are already imposing much insanity around me, osit.
It would be like hearing a thousand radio stations all tuned up to something different.
I would not want to impose my insanity on others. Others are already imposing much insanity around me, osit.
L
LordBucket
Guest
In truth, about a week ago I was praying to be presented with a means of serving humanity that I was suitable for. This came to mind. Though it wasn't exactly a new idea. I've certainly considered it before, as Axel_Dunor mentioned, it is an "outcome of The Work," and there is even literature that discusses it. For example, Serial Experiments Lain touches upon the idea, though the wiki writeup doesn't do it a very much justice.
...some have. Would you say it was foolish for them to have done so? Have the rewards not been worthwhile?
The way you've slanted the question, yes, of course it sounds logical. I simply dispute that telepathy requires mastery of 3rd level 'stuff.' Even your own material appears to dispute this:
Second density communicates telepathically. I've asked what makes people here think we could not also. So far the only answer I've been given is that "such a network could not be objective, because we live in Gurdjieff's matrix." To this I have two responses:
1) Yes, and second density is right here along with us in that matrix. Doesn't seem to stop them, does it?
2) You're right, objectivity would be an issue. But, so too is it an issue would all other forms of communicating and networking we have available to us. Should we have never developed them because they're we cannot be certain of their objectivity?
You cannot even believe your eyes. Would you do away with those also?
What do you mean by "natural?" If a person lifts weights for the purpose of becoming stronger, is that unnatural? Why is it unnatural if the purpose is mental or spiritual instead of physical?
1) Why do you disclude the possibility that humans creating a telepathic network could be a manifestation of "the work?"
2) Are you open to the possibility that all elements of humanity may not necessarily perform identically the same functions in the process of ascension? There may not be "only a single way" and ascension of the whole may depend on a variety of functions performed by the various elements. Your work may be valuable, even needful, but it is possible that it is insufficient without complementary "Work" being performed by others. I am not asserting that this is the case, but I am asserting that it might be. I would encourage you to not dismiss the rest of humanity that does not do as you do, as irrelevant. They may be just as necessary to the whole as you are.
There may be "Work" that is not "Your Work."
What messages are you reinforcing in your mind when you call "Your Work", "The" work?
The written word, the radio, the telephone, the Internet...which of these things enhanced chaos? Which of them would you say we would be better off without?
HAARP is on the way. I propose that we already have experience dealing with direct mental communication by the time it goes into full operation.
A road will be built more quickly if you build from both ends simultaneously.
In what way is their difference relevant? Would your statement be so very different from a cow at a slaughterhouse telling another cow: "Spoken language is quite different from smelling and mooing. We shouldn't try to learn to speak, because if we did third density would surely take advantage of us."
...and, once again...to reiterate the quote that has already been given:
I read that to mean: Telepathic communication is the norm, even at second density. Verbal communication is limiting, and that's why we've been conditioned to use it.
So, yes...as you say:
They are indeed. They are different because they are part of what limits us.
I am talking about direct and willing telepathic contact with self serving HUMANS. Yes. I am asserting that increased quality and quantity of communication between and amongst humans would be good, helpful and beneficial. Despite the fact that we are STS. And I am asserting that "we" as a collective entity would benefit tremendously from a willigness to look into our collective hearts and minds, in exactly the same way that we, as individuals, benefit from looking into our own.
Seems to me that a considerable portion of my original post was describing possible dangers. In particular, the very two first items on the list largely summarized most of the objections that have been raised since.
What exactly is it you think I don't understand?
Hmm.
I have read them, yes.
Imagine if could create automobiles that could move people faster than 20mph. I think we'd be crushed by the sheer force of the speed.
Bucket Man