finding partners...

[Beau]

As the C's have said, "The reward for learning the lesson is learning the lesson."

But if your better choices (because of knowledge) brings you new reality that could also be reward, right?

It can be, but one must be careful not to anticipate and therefore expect that to occur. If one acts in an open-ended way without an expectation of result, that is when one is likely to find their choices bringing a new reality. If one acts with expectation of reward, then that energy can be constricting and not allow for the generation of a new reality. That's why it is recommended for those who seek their "polar opposite" to simply Work as hard as they can on themselves and in becoming the person that their soul mate will want and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[skycsil]

That's why it is recommended for those who seek their "polar opposite" to simply Work as hard as they can on themselves and in becoming the person that their soul mate will want and let the chips fall where they may.

Based on my experience, I would also recommend not seek for your polar opposite at all. Searching, even unconciously, brings along expectations, and those expectations can (and most probabbly will) lead us to damaged people who will drain us and distract us from work. This is where the Love Bite thing comes in, since we haven't experienced meeting the polar opposite in this life we have no idea how is like, except that we will know when it happens. And those pesky 4D STS can really mess up with our minds and feelings to make us fall into thinking we found it when we didn't.

 

[BHelmet]

Based on my experience, I would also recommend not seek for your polar opposite at all. Searching, even unconciously, brings along expectations, and those expectations can (and most probabbly will) lead us to damaged people who will drain us and distract us from work. This is where the Love Bite thing comes in, since we haven't experienced meeting the polar opposite in this life we have no idea how is like, except that we will know when it happens. And those pesky 4D STS can really mess up with our minds and feelings to make us fall into thinking we found it when we didn't.

Yeah - major "bravo" on all this. Just know of the possibility and be aware of it but don't obsess over it. It will happen when it is meant to happen; like a function of nature. But yeah, on one hand, uncertainty is part of the reading error of the machine; and on the other hand, you pays your money and takes your chance.

 

[BHelmet]

How about this aspect of it all: (from the : "Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse" category...)

We are hypnotized/programmed to interact with those who will cause the most drainage of energy compliments of 4D STS.

Boy does that ever throw a monkey wrench into the whole 'finding the perfect polar partner" thing.

Would that little bit of info mean that the polar opposite would not feel quite what we expect, (or perhaps not what we feel we desire?) since we are basically wired up to respond in a major way to the 'wrong' person based on all the 'wrong' signals?? (including emotional, physical and mental 'signals')

Sheesh...

Although...knowledge IS supposed to protect...

 

[CelticWarrior]

We are hypnotized/programmed to interact with those who will cause the most drainage of energy compliments of 4D STS.

Boy does that ever throw a monkey wrench into the whole 'finding the perfect polar partner" thing.

Would that little bit of info mean that the polar opposite would not feel quite what we expect, (or perhaps not what we feel we desire?) since we are basically wired up to respond in a major way to the 'wrong' person based on all the 'wrong' signals?? (including emotional, physical and mental 'signals')

My experience would suggest that you're going to meet A LOT of STS folks that will want to draw upon your better qualities. Don't bite the hook! Be investigative/inquisitive about your quest for a prospective "polar-aligned" partner. The 'wrong' signals that you speak of are only temporary issues. Every approach taken should be with caution in mind, although if you're asking all the 'right' questions there ought to be a true gut feeling revelation after a few encounters. Of course, the STS programming or at least the remnants of it are there in anyone so remember to have a bit of patience, tolerance (external consideration) including your newly enlightened outlook of that individual through your observations.

I'm really an optimist just with an edge of caution. So it's always good to give certain people a chance if they're open to say how they feel about themselves and their perspective on desired relationships when it comes up. Depending on what kind of society you're living in it's a struggle for sure, so keep vigilant in all your pursuits of an ideal mate or friendship.

Chances are people are willing to learn what you have to offer. That's a huge signal that can last well into many years of a "perfect" patner. Certain characteristics that you may see can be molded or shaped, and as long as they are willing to jump in for that ride to seek real knowledge.

 

[luke wilson]

I have journaled about it... but I have to confess it...

I don't hate women or dislike women or have any issues against women... but... when it comes to attraction... I am only attracted to 'attractive' women! It's biology... and it always saddens me... to know that I act at a level where in attraction, you disregard what really matters, who someone is, for their physical appearance as the primary factor... and even this definition of what attractive is, I have found that I am a victim of environment... in that where I am, I fall into the environmental definition of what is attractive i.e. I don't have my own definition, it changes.

I also hate that I don't envy those who are with women who don't qualify this definition... I hate that I say, I would rather die alone than accept a woman for her just being a woman... for her just being female.... I hate that I am ok being alone.... if I can't be with her who meets my definition... I hate that I would look at someone and see their other half and think immediately before feeling bad for myself for being still single, is she someone who meets the criteria... I hate that I think other men who are with women who don't meet this 'criteria' are failures... men who were overcome by fear of being alone... and so they sold out... I hate all this, yet even though I don't want to think it... I think it. And in a way, the fact that the world has been so brutal to me about being alone, I feel as justified karma, for thinking the way I do... It's so horrendous... I don't know why I think this way, it for sure isn't conscious... and I am surrounded by women who wouldn't meet this definition.. thank God! For these women I wouldn't want to think of in such terms.. they are just people... to compensate for this apparent failure I swing to the other extreme and act as noble as I can towards women and refuse to act on instinct... How do you fight biology, if deep down you agree with biology.. it's biology after all... why compromise, when you can go for gold, why settle for silver? this is the mindset... I used to think of it as not compromising... only the soulmate.. obviously the soulmate will satisfy all the main criterias... for one, she would be absolutely stunning to look at... but now, maybe this is just a mask, for a biological programme... one that I fight against, by feeling shame! So much shame that I deny how I feel... but how I feel is not conscious, it's biological... and I accept biology, it makes sense but I know on another level it doesn't... you shouldn't look at the world through these eyes...

I look at the world through competitive eyes... and I always denied it... I thought it only applied if you won... so I chose to lose... this is proof that you aren't competitive.. but it's a mask! in everything competition... and competition is always about the gold. It doesn't matter what sacrifice you make, it doesn't matter how long you have to wait.. it doesn't matter how much of your self importance you have to sacrifice... the eye is on the prize. That's the goal. I don't understand how it became this way. That I became such a performance animal and that to hide this from myself I compensated on the opposite, willingful loses.

I always wondered how I can be such a loser but pull it out of the hat when it really mattered... when you were right on the edge of the "true" lose, the one that you can't come back from, a part of you that was hidden becomes apparent. Then it slowly dawns on you that you are divided. On the one hand you have a very extreme way of interacting with the world, and on the other, to hide it from yourself because you have a heart and you don't understand how a part of you can see the world in such a heartless way, you compensate by swinging entirely to the opposite side.

I'm not a bad person, or psychopathic.... biology plays a very strong role in who I am and part of that is that I am competitive, I have my eyes on the bottom line, but I am also lazy, so lazy, dangerously lazy, I only call upon it when it matters, it's not about having what it takes all the time, it's about having it when it matters. So yes, my environment has created this aspect of competition in me, and something else has masked it in the opposite. In the aspect of competition, their is the view of the heartless.

I journalled a bit about it, but I just needed to share it because I don't like like sometimes seeing the world in a heartless way!

 

[Ruth]

From what you (Gurdjieff) saying, my programs has chosen my partner, profession, hobbies, place for living and everything else. My opinion that my acts in the past lead me to this future is wrong.

From what I can see this varies in accordance to each person's awareness of what programs they run (some people are very programmed, others not as much, especially as they start to observe why they do the things they do).

I think this variability happens when individuals start taking a long hard look at WHY they do the things they do. Then they discover a program, and once seen, can take measures to counteract it or observe it. Maybe choosing to act differently.

Much of our programing comes from our parents and then from society. First, you have to figure out what programs you have. :)

 

[Ruth]

I have journaled about it... but I have to confess it...

I don't hate women or dislike women or have any issues against women... but... when it comes to attraction... I am only attracted to 'attractive' women! It's biology... and it always saddens me... to know that I act at a level where in attraction, you disregard what really matters, who someone is, for their physical appearance as the primary factor... and even this definition of what attractive is, I have found that I am a victim of environment... in that where I am, I fall into the environmental definition of what is attractive i.e. I don't have my own definition, it changes.

Kind of looks to me to be one of those 'life lessons'... Like it's trying to say not to value physical 'beauty', or appearance, over pretty much everything else. I don't think it means that you have to be 'attracted' to ugly women in order to overcome this, just that you have to start to downplay the importance of appearance to yourself. The appearance of others as well as how you look as well.

What is the consequence of not 'learning', or maybe 'seeing' this lesson? Well, try being hit (really very hard) by the ugly stick for a number of lifetimes?!!
It would probably be enough to make you sad too! It would reinforce that appearance shouldn't be the driving force for relationships between people.

Perhaps this is a different take on something which only has an indirect relationship to relationships?

 

[luke wilson]

Hi Ruth,

For me it is for sure a life lesson! I tried ignoring it for so long but the way life has panned out, it can't be anything other than a really big lesson.

What is the consequence of not 'learning', or maybe 'seeing' this lesson? Well, try being hit (really very hard) by the ugly stick for a number of lifetimes?!!
It would probably be enough to make you sad too! It would reinforce that appearance shouldn't be the driving force for relationships between people.

I can't speak to whether the universe has hit me with the ugly stick in this life or previous lives. I think I'm in the average range of the spectrum, just another person in a sea of a billion people. The media hasn't really bombarded my gender with specific definitions of what it is to be ugly or beautiful, so it's not something that eats away at me inordinately. If anything, the program that my gender faces in terms of projection of "ugliness" or "beauty" is character (in the sense of projecting socially defined masculine attributes)/personality/humour/charm etc. You know inanimate things mostly. If you can project those qualities I suppose as a man you qualify as beautiful, if not then ugly.

If we change the definition to that, then I'm probably ugly and the universe has been bashing me with this stick since forever. So, hmmm... I suppose from my eyes, the problem changes... it's not that appearance should be the driving force or it shouldn't... it's that people should be attracted to other people based on who the other person is. Attraction should transcend socially defined criteria, where actors on both sides have to play to the tune of certain pre-defined things which ultimately act to mask their true nature. Lol! I'm so silly, ultimately attraction is about evolution and about basic survival... transcend socially defined criteria?!?!... talk about having ones head in the clouds!!!

Who is a person? Who are they really? In my eyes (which is probably incorrect) a person is what you know of someone when you strip away all the attributes they have whose sole purpose is to get them something. These are attributes that they have taken on to help them survive in a society that demands they must have them in order to get something which allows them social acceptance. It's not that taking on attributes such as charm or humor is a bad thing, it's that it is a dictatorial decree upon a whole society. What about those people who don't have the genetic pre-disposition to be funny or charming or having socially defined masculine qualities but they are nonetheless good people! What about them? You force the person to suffer for no justified reason!!

Anyways, at some point at school, boys stopped being boys... they stopped being boys towards each other and they started to be men and the reason they started to be men is girls. The playground became a strategic environment, where relationships were forged and broken between boys based on strategy of getting nearer to girls. Naturally all these happened unconsciously. I was left wondering what the hell was going on and once it clicked what was happening, I was to late in entering the field which had evolved to new heights.

I suppose I'm just struggling with these stuff...

 

[Ruth]

I can't speak to whether the universe has hit me with the ugly stick in this life or previous lives. I think I'm in the average range of the spectrum, just another person in a sea of a billion people. The media hasn't really bombarded my gender with specific definitions of what it is to be ugly or beautiful, so it's not something that eats away at me inordinately. If anything, the program that my gender faces in terms of projection of "ugliness" or "beauty" is character (in the sense of projecting socially defined masculine attributes)/personality/humour/charm etc. You know inanimate things mostly. If you can project those qualities I suppose as a man you qualify as beautiful, if not then ugly.

Hi Luke, what I meant is that if a 'life lesson' isn't learned then a soul may chose to take on the characteristics of the life lesson it hasn't learned in future lives.... and that might really suck. But, I suppose we all do that with whatever life lessons we haven't come to terms with yet... :(

It's interesting to get the male perspective.

 

[lilyalic]

I also hate that I don't envy those who are with women who don't qualify this definition... I hate that I say, I would rather die alone than accept a woman for her just being a woman... for her just being female.... I hate that I am ok being alone.... if I can't be with her who meets my definition... I hate that I would look at someone and see their other half and think immediately before feeling bad for myself for being still single, is she someone who meets the criteria... I hate that I think other men who are with women who don't meet this 'criteria' are failures... men who were overcome by fear of being alone... and so they sold out... I hate all this, yet even though I don't want to think it... I think it. And in a way, the fact that the world has been so brutal to me about being alone, I feel as justified karma, for thinking the way I do... It's so horrendous... I don't know why I think this way, it for sure isn't conscious... and I am surrounded by women who wouldn't meet this definition.. thank God! For these women I wouldn't want to think of in such terms.. they are just people... to compensate for this apparent failure I swing to the other extreme and act as noble as I can towards women and refuse to act on instinct... How do you fight biology, if deep down you agree with biology.. it's biology after all... why compromise, when you can go for gold, why settle for silver? this is the mindset... I used to think of it as not compromising... only the soulmate.. obviously the soulmate will satisfy all the main criterias... for one, she would be absolutely stunning to look at... but now, maybe this is just a mask, for a biological programme... one that I fight against, by feeling shame! So much shame that I deny how I feel... but how I feel is not conscious, it's biological... and I accept biology, it makes sense but I know on another level it doesn't... you shouldn't look at the world through these eyes...

Have you never met a girl whom didn't instantly fit this "criteria" of yours, really got to know her and then suddenly found her attractive?
I don't even think all of this falls down to biology, I'd say mostly years of watching Pornography and the media outlets of "perfect" men and women.

Do you still watch porn? forgive me if I'm totally off here.

Also, with you thinking these things, and then condemning yourself for doing so - you're de-validating that part of yourself. Why not try showing that part (Although not favorable) some self compassion? Show understanding of it's wants and desires, listen to its thoughts and "invite it to tea?" Maybe it'll help going over the Dialectic toolset thread: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,38752.msg591289.html#msg591289

FWIW: A useful thing my therapist said to me was that if we're trying to get rid of or control a certain part of ourselves, we are giving it power .. therefore probably making it stronger and not just letting it go.

 

[placematt]

Who is a person? Who are they really? In my eyes (which is probably incorrect) a person is what you know of someone when you strip away all the attributes they have whose sole purpose is to get them something. These are attributes that they have taken on to help them survive in a society that demands they must have them in order to get something which allows them social acceptance. It's not that taking on attributes such as charm or humor is a bad thing, it's that it is a dictatorial decree upon a whole society. What about those people who don't have the genetic pre-disposition to be funny or charming or having socially defined masculine qualities but they are nonetheless good people! What about them? You force the person to suffer for no justified reason!!

Anyways, at some point at school, boys stopped being boys... they stopped being boys towards each other and they started to be men and the reason they started to be men is girls. The playground became a strategic environment, where relationships were forged and broken between boys based on strategy of getting nearer to girls. Naturally all these happened unconsciously. I was left wondering what the hell was going on and once it clicked what was happening, I was to late in entering the field which had evolved to new heights.

I suppose I'm just struggling with these stuff...

Hey Luke,

don't forget that women find different things charming and not. Even myself as a male, can find something about another male charming. It's dictoral for sure, but up to a certain point. As most people, even if they don't admit it, are attracted to different things.

Maybe it's me, but being funny can be learned. And some of the people I know who aren't funny, well in that odd occasion where they are, their stuff packs a punch. I think everyone can be funny. i don't think it's genetic. I could be wrong though. But those attributes you talk about, I'm sure they are learned. Like sarcasm etc. A lot most likely is from parents and their influence.

Im curious when you get to know someone why you would want to strip away their attributes? Thats some of the most important stuff, because its a window into who they are. Like yourself no doubt. If a female wanted to push aside your attributes, that charming thing you do or don't, that funny idiosyncrasy. Sure it's not identifying essence, but its apart of it. Because in the work, we seem to look at these things, observe these things and we learn and grow through that. SO wanting to disregard that, i don't know why? Sure there's a time and a place and a lot of worth in knowing someone, but isn't it important to know all of them? Ying and yang?

I can't speak to whether the universe has hit me with the ugly stick in this life or previous lives. I think I'm in the average range of the spectrum, just another person in a sea of a billion people. The media hasn't really bombarded my gender with specific definitions of what it is to be ugly or beautiful, so it's not something that eats away at me inordinately. If anything, the program that my gender faces in terms of projection of "ugliness" or "beauty" is character (in the sense of projecting socially defined masculine attributes)/personality/humour/charm etc. You know inanimate things mostly. If you can project those qualities I suppose as a man you qualify as beautiful, if not then ugly.

Hi Luke, what I meant is that if a 'life lesson' isn't learned then a soul may chose to take on the characteristics of the life lesson it hasn't learned in future lives.... and that might really suck. But, I suppose we all do that with whatever life lessons we haven't come to terms with yet... :(

It's interesting to get the male perspective.

Hey Ruth, I think this is a very sound way of looking at it as i too have thought similar. Becoming that which we disregard, teaches us the lesson in a different, more slowly developed way.

Sorry if i piped in at the wrong time, but I'm learning a lot from this thread and wanted to give some value. :)

 

[luke wilson]

Hey, my first post was just an offshoot from some stuff I was journalling about and now I've lost my trail of thought.

Lilyalic asked about porn (a loaded question!)... below are my ever evolving views on porn

Why do people become addicted to porn? Its because it taps into a primal part of the brain... This is exploitation of biology... the same way food companies force feed the masses bad food by making it so that it taps into addictive areas of the brain.

Regarding food, the bottom line is that it's a human requirement to eat. The question then becomes what it is you will eat. I think the same applies for sexuality, at some point, unless you have a very strange biology e.g. being 'a-sexual' you have a sexual thing that will descend upon you when become of age. And so it becomes how it is that'll be dealt with. Good luck with starvation.

For me, as with many people in the last 20 years or so.... the first introduction to sexuality was porn. Recently it dawned on me that this was sexual abuse. God dammit, I'm a victim of sexual abuse! It was something that was put into me without my knowledge of what it was. Firstly, my first encounter of it was being with a bunch of friends and we were watching a movie (days of vcr) then at some point one of them said he had a porn tape. Out of curiosity the rest said to put it on, I was shocked and walked out. First encounter was that of shock naturally. Then I next encountered it on the first 2nd hand computer I got in the files there. Shock moved to curiosity and curiosity moved to addiction.

Nowadays, I watch it every now and again, haphazardly, mostly when I'm bored and sometimes if I feel a really strong push from the brain, usually when both combine. Currently, I haven't seen it in 3 weeks or so... I'll be honest and say I don't really feel guilty about it nowadays especially given the frequency is drastically less than before. Over the years the frequency and the need is going down naturally but I'd be lying in saying it has gone down to zero. In the situations where the need arises, bad combo of boredom and need, what kills the guilt is acknowledging it offers a portal to satisfying a biological need. What am I meant to do? Guilt trip myself to oblivion?

I've tried the cold turkey thing and the body simply answers, "No!". There is something about the body knowing what it is you are trying to accomplish and it saying "No". Basically in-line with this

FWIW: A useful thing my therapist said to me was that if we're trying to get rid of or control a certain part of ourselves, we are giving it power .. therefore probably making it stronger and not just letting it go.

I can't go cold turkey without not-knowing I'm going cold turkey and as soon as you know it, then you are in for a battle and if my mind had the sort of power to nullify my body, I wouldn't need to eat food to begin with.

So my strategy is life & environment. The environment plays a big role, where you are and what is normal where you are... my body will naturally re-adjust to fit in... life... the act of living, engaging in life, flow of time... It took years for the addiction to take hold, it will takes years for it to go down to zero. I'm on the downward slope but not at the bottom.


Btw, I dont think porn is responsible for me being single. It may play a role but not the primary role. Many non-single males are horribly addicted. My addiction is more like a pint of beer every now and again as compared to multiple pints every single day... there are levels of addiction, just before the judgements start flowing in. And using the alcohol analogy, mine ismore like a pint of cider here and there, not shots of spirits. Again just putting it out there..

 

[lilyalic]

Although you say you're slowly weaning off this sort of addiction, maybe it'll help to read/watch these videos.

http://www.sott.net/article/231669-This-Is-Your-Brain-On-Porn

Have you read Gabor Maté's book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction"?

Here's a really good video!!

https://youtu.be/gRJ_QfP2mhU

I know it's hard, but I don't think you can just "dip" in and out of addictive behaviors. - and No you probably don't have to guilt yourself into oblivion, but maybe it is best to know exactly what happens to your brain when you watch porn. When I read your post about battling with thoughts in regards to what you find as attractive in women etc - I instantly thought "he watches porn" - but maybe that's because I've done quite abit of reading into this, watching mostly videos tbh. And probably a harsh judgement on my behalf.

I'm not saying all these thoughts you are having are because you watch porn, I have no idea why. I'd say a combination of all the factors you've described yourself.

 

[luke wilson]

If your thought was 'he watches porn' you are about 80% right or a similarly high number with the young male demographic with access to technology nowadays... I'm sadly no different! Basically saying there was no miracle I was going to grow up in this day and age without coming across this and when the inevitable happened, there was very little chance that I wasn't going to be addicted. So, in that way, I like to think of the whole ordeal as entirely normal. Normal albeit a victim of exploitation by forces that took advantage of our natural wiring.

Uhmm, yeah, I watched the videos, read the articles, read the forums, read individual accounts, read about addiction in the brain, reward circuitry in the brain and such... Still no luck. Its the gradual descent, not the overnight miracle for me. If any new ways are out there, I'm all ears. I'm just glad I'm on the slope downwards, maybe its a sign im getting old... Youthful days will soon be but a memory.