Another hit for the Cs - Cashless Society - VISA 666!

neonix

Jedi Council Member
We can easily counteract cashless idea by saying that if hackers block the Internet infrastructure, the whole economy collapse.

If black economy is big, then the only culprit is the government, who do not know how to govern properly.
 

Windmill knight

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
neonix said:
We can easily counteract cashless idea by saying that if hackers block the Internet infrastructure, the whole economy collapse.
Cashless society is a bad idea at many levels. It's not just issues with hacking, but also accessibility to technology as a prerrequisite to make commerce, which is unfeasable in a world in which the majority are under the poverty line. That's just one example of a problem.

But the main thing is that if all money is just entries in databases, then someone is in control of those databases and that is not the common people. Someone effectively controls all of people's money at all times, and that is just a formula for totalitarianism. If you dissent you simply may find yourself unable to buy or sell anything. Pretty devious, isn't it?

So yes, it's a bad idea, full of problems, but because of its potential for control, it is very attractive to the elite.

If black economy is big, then the only culprit is the government, who do not know how to govern properly.
I think they will try to put this argument on its head to sell the idea. Something like this: 'Because there is black market, as well as unpredictability of people's behaviour, which negatively affects the economy, we should have an absolutely controlled system via technological means! Then black money could be tracked, financial collapses avoided, etc.'
 

DonnieG

Padawan Learner
Perhaps no one caught on to the fact the barcode would be a neutral color or clear if you will, so as not to be seen, good luck with copying that.
 

itellsya

SuperModerator
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FOTCM Member
Kinda related but more so with the data base society:

Concern as Derby City Council makes benefits forms online only

NEW applications for housing benefits, help with council tax and free school meals in Derby must now be made online after the authority scrapped its paper-based method.

The spokeswoman said, according to the Office of National Statistics, 89.5% of people in Derby aged over 16 had accessed the internet


http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Concern-Derby-City-Council-makes-benefits-forms/story-27869325-detail/story.html
The problems here are manifold: 1) the Billion £ 'universal credit' (*shudder*) system has proven to be a failure and 2) that stat about 'access to the internet' as someone who is in my 30's and in 2011 had little money and troublesome access (at times), the idea that anyone unfamiliar will be able to access the very benefits that keep them alive, is farcical. This borough has probably been chosen due to an obvious lack of community strength and a high number of claimants (who don't have the money to fight back since 'legal aid' has been withdrawn).

But again, it's all on the computer and your benefits - a misnomer if there ever was one, more accurately, the only income you have and probably paid for out of your salary- can be stopped for weeks without your knowledge at the mere utterance of: "computer says no".

95% of the people who contest these 'sanctions' (for countries and people apparently) WIN.

Volunteer law project wins 95% of 'fit for work' test appeal cases
http://www.theguardian.com/society/patrick-butler-cuts-blog/2015/sep/02/volunteer-law-project-wins-95-of-fit-for-work-test-appeal-cases
As has been shown before, the minute these systems stop working, all hell is ready to break loose. The seaside town Blackpool, UK is near me and they've been 'populating' these areas for the last few years with claimants; shipping them out of London and concentrating already deprived areas with more of the same.
(2013) http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/12/us/food-stamp-system-failure/ Computer failure temporarily halts some food stamp payments
http://twitchy.com/2013/10/12/riot-time-food-stamp-users-in-near-panic-over-ebt-card-failures/
 

itellsya

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FOTCM Member
There's already been an article posted on Sott about it: http://www.sott.net/article/312611-Cash-is-being-gradually-taken-away-as-banks-seek-economic-monopoly

but i thought this was an interesting summation of the possible reasoning they'll push - and more so because it's from Time:
http://time.com/money/4226174/kill-100-dollar-bill-500-euro-phase-out/

In an op-ed for the Washington Post, Summers cites a new study from Harvard’s Kennedy school by banker Peter Sands—he’s President Emeritus of Harvard—that made a strong case for the elimination of the £50, the €500, the Swiss CHF 1,000, as well as the $100 because large currency notes such as these are the “preferred payment mechanism of those pursuing illicit activities, given the anonymity and lack of transaction record they offer, and the relative ease with which they can be transported and moved.”

The elimination of high-denomination bills has precedent: In 2000, Canada got rid of its $1,000 bills and Singapore ditched its $10,000 bills. In the U.K., there are already calls to scrap the £50 note. Still, Switzerland, famous for its financial discretion, doesn’t appear to be rejecting its massive CHF 1,000 note—the most valuable in the G10.
Their reasoning, or one of their arguments (almost ridiculous but tugging on the usual heart strings):

“If a drugs gang collects up to £1m in twenties from its clients on street corners, those notes will weigh more than 50kg – about 50 bags of sugar,” the BBC reported five years ago. “The equivalent in 500 euro banknotes weighs just over 2kg.”
No comment on how heavy the drugs might weigh..
 

Dirgni

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
itellsya said:
There's already been an article posted on Sott about it: http://www.sott.net/article/312611-Cash-is-being-gradually-taken-away-as-banks-seek-economic-monopoly

...
Their reasoning, or one of their arguments (almost ridiculous but tugging on the usual heart strings):

“If a drugs gang collects up to £1m in twenties from its clients on street corners, those notes will weigh more than 50kg – about 50 bags of sugar,” the BBC reported five years ago. “The equivalent in 500 euro banknotes weighs just over 2kg.”
No comment on how heavy the drugs might weigh..
If you want to save your money as cash because you do not trust (bank) system, then larger notes could be hidden easier than smaller ones. And what they fear very much is a bank run from people, who are still saving a bit of money. Cash hidden somewhere could not be used by the banks for their leverage games and it could also not be used to save banks, governments, economy, or whatever.

The drug gangs, criminals, terrorists etc. will most probably find other ways to do exchange without cash and also without having attention "of the public" on their activites.


Just my 2 cents.
 

Windmill knight

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
itellsya said:
There's already been an article posted on Sott about it: http://www.sott.net/article/312611-Cash-is-being-gradually-taken-away-as-banks-seek-economic-monopoly

but i thought this was an interesting summation of the possible reasoning they'll push - and more so because it's from Time:
http://time.com/money/4226174/kill-100-dollar-bill-500-euro-phase-out/

In an op-ed for the Washington Post, Summers cites a new study from Harvard’s Kennedy school by banker Peter Sands—he’s President Emeritus of Harvard—that made a strong case for the elimination of the £50, the €500, the Swiss CHF 1,000, as well as the $100 because large currency notes such as these are the “preferred payment mechanism of those pursuing illicit activities, given the anonymity and lack of transaction record they offer, and the relative ease with which they can be transported and moved.”

The elimination of high-denomination bills has precedent: In 2000, Canada got rid of its $1,000 bills and Singapore ditched its $10,000 bills. In the U.K., there are already calls to scrap the £50 note. Still, Switzerland, famous for its financial discretion, doesn’t appear to be rejecting its massive CHF 1,000 note—the most valuable in the G10.
Their reasoning, or one of their arguments (almost ridiculous but tugging on the usual heart strings):

“If a drugs gang collects up to £1m in twenties from its clients on street corners, those notes will weigh more than 50kg – about 50 bags of sugar,” the BBC reported five years ago. “The equivalent in 500 euro banknotes weighs just over 2kg.”
No comment on how heavy the drugs might weigh..
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Basically they are using the same argument in favor of draconian measures - that it is to protect us from terrorists - but now in the economic sphere. Eventually we'll take away physical money and will therefore have a whole more control over you people, but it's all for your security!
 

Mike

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Of all the things that seem to be in our future this move toward a cashless society/system makes me the most frustrated and angry. It just seems so over the top in terms of trying to control the free will of all people and subjugate them to the whims of tyrants and the totalitarian/pathocratic state and system. The last few weeks after reading the recent news and exposure about the topic has me seeking dissociation from what is taking place in a general sense and overall in a funk. It is one thing to think about it possibly taking place some time in the future and actually seeing it take shape and start to be implemented. I think I struggle most with wanting to shake people I know to wake up, etc and realizing the sad state where most people I know and interact with on a daily basis would just think I was a crazy person if I even broached the topic. It is scary to see so many people in lala land and I'm sad for all the pain and confusion taking place all over the world and for those not touched by it yet what seems to be coming ahead.
 

Eboard10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I recently came across an interesting article describing the current push towards the digitalisation of money and weighing the pros and cons of a cashless society to understand whether our demand for quicker and more convenient payment types is worth giving up our financial freedom for.

A Cashless Society? Be Careful What You Wish For

Cash is being rapidly dethroned as increasing numbers of countries focus on digitalizing their economies. Scandinavian countries are leading the way, with Denmark seeking to be cashless by 2030.

Denmark’s central bank has already stopped manufacturing physical money and around a third of the nation’s population already uses Danske Bank’s mobile payment system. Even Copenhagen’s mobile street food vendors are readily accepting contactless payments. In Sweden, 95% of the country’s retail transactions are digital, banks are ceasing to hold cash and redundant ATMs are being removed from the streets.

Global tech giants such as Apple and Google are making single ‘tap’ payments ubiquitous. Whilst authorities have been quick to laud the benefits of a cashless society, this convenience is not without its dangers – constant surveillance and massive personal data collection and storage, as well as complete dependence on government imposed fiscal policy.

One benefit of digitized currencies is their relative cost effectiveness in comparison to cash, which is expensive to produce, maintain and handle. It costs twice the coins’ monetary value to produce American cents and nickels, leading a McKinsey survey to conclude digitizing the US currency would increase the nation’s GDP by almost 0.5%. Significant costs are accrued in secure transportation and handling – influencing the Danish government’s view that cash imposes too many ‘administrative and financial burdens’ on retail businesses.

Already suspicion surrounds requests for cash-in-hand payment, now associated with tax avoidance and criminality. A world without cash would see reduced tax avoidance and minimized underground markets, especially useful in countries like Greece where tax evasion is endemic.

Cash has always fuelled Black Markets (although the equally anonymous yet digital Bitcoin did have its reputation tarnished following its use as the payment method for Silk Road, an online dark-net platform for purchasing narcotics, which was shut down by the FBI in 2013) so the eradication of cash would reduce this type of crime. However, as one area of financial crime diminishes, significant increases in cyber crime and identity theft occur. A stolen £20 note carries no personal information, whereas breaches of digital accounts not only provide access to funds but also a host of personal details.

Losing physical cash is annoying, but losing identity information could be devastating; whole accounts wiped and details used to open fraudulent bank accounts and to apply for credit. Sweden provides a good example of the crime problems faced in an almost cashless economy – in the past 10 years card fraud cases have doubled, and between 2000 and 2011 instances of digital monetary fraud increased six fold. Practically no digital server is incorruptible or immune to hacking, and it would be worryingly naive to think the reduction of physical financial crime would necessarily outweigh the dangers of digital crime.

You do not need to be in possession of aggressively Libertarian views to recognize that a cashless society requires the relinquishing of freedom
. A cashless society could be almost Orwellian with regard to the control a government would possess over its population. Denmark’s goal is a central bank responsible for all current accounts, with any international bank branches drawing funds from this central bank rather than individual depositors.

Whilst in stable, democratic nations it is hard to imagine a situation where this control is leveraged by the government to manipulate the population, such as limiting access to funds in the face of strikes, in corrupt and dictatorial regimes, ultimate governmental control over access to funds could be especially dangerous – whole currencies could be invalidated, payments declined, funds frozen. An electricity outage, either deliberate or unavoidable, could immobilize the funds of a whole population.

A cashless economy would also place the population’s deposits at the total mercy of fiscal policymakers. The list of nations with negative interest rates for financial institutions is ever growing – with the Bank of Japan introducing negative rates last week. This penalty for holding cash overnight will trickle down, until depositors of both high and low value are affected. With $2trn of bonds trading globally with negative interest, some investors have begun to liquidate portions of their investments – including a selection of Swiss pension funds that have moved the majority of their investments into cash.

]Having an entire nation’s accounts in a single, central institution would provide authorities with total control over the public’s economic behaviour. Whilst this is beneficial from an economist’s point of view, countries could more effectively control economic fluctuations, few people are wholly comfortable with the prospect of their money being subjected to negative rates as and when the government wants to stimulate spending and increase the ‘velocity of money’. When saving is preferable, negative interest would be dropped and perhaps even transaction taxes implemented.

Jim Leaviss, Head of Retail Fixed Interest for M&G’s mutual fund range, and an advocate of a cashless society, claimed ‘such an approach would be a far more effective way to dampen an overheated economy than today’s blunt tool of a rise in the central bank’s official interest rate’. It may be more sensible from a purely economic view, but human populations rarely behave or think as economists do – and any implementation of this policy would, and should, be greeted with scepticism.

Ultimately we are the victims of our own demand for convenience. Digital currencies are not being forced upon us; we have an insatiable demand for quicker, more convenient payments and services. An economy untethered from physical cash would be initially beneficial for all, but is it worth allowing governments to gather startling quantities of personal data, forcefully directing our financial habits, and potentially making a nation’s bank accounts vulnerable to fraud? Does the convenience and ease of a digital currency, from the point of the public, really outweigh everything we would have to sacrifice? I suspect not.
 

itellsya

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FOTCM Member
So we've seen this push for going cashless, and the propagandists seem to be piggy-backing on the Nordic countries reputations, among the west, to make it more appealing, and probably less threatening.

One of the first digital currencies to hit the headlines was BitCoin, particularly promoted by Max Keiser. In one of his most recent shows he mentioned that BitCoin was to become a physical currency ad a quick search brings up:
(Feb 2016) http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/25/japan-to-make-bitcoin-legal-currency

Japan’s governing Liberal Democratic party is planning to propose legal changes that would define bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as currencies.

The changes would mean bitcoin could be more tightly regulated and taxed, and are likely to lead to more investment in developing cryptocurrency infrastructure in Japan.
(2 days ago)
https://www.corbettreport.com/satori-coin-new-physical-bitcoin-introduced-in-japan/
Today James talks to Yoshi Kan of Raimu Inc. about Satori Coin, a new physical bitcoin that is being introduced in Japan. They discuss the need for physical bitcoin and show how a Satori Coin works. For more details see satoricoin.jp.
To me, it seems to be just another system which can be used to steal your money. And is little different to going cashless.

There was a bit of discussion here: Show #14: Bitcoin, Gold and the Cashless Society about how dire Japan's economic outlook is, as everywhere, but perhaps that's one reason they're eager to find alternatives, and are more likely to be gullible. The technological hook seems to work there, while the 'free society' hook works up north, osis.
 

bjorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Windmill knight said:
A video of a dude paying with the chip in his hand, and being very excited about it. :rolleyes:


https://youtu.be/hTBJ6OIGkzc
They must been thinking it's some kind of magic of sorts. New technology is like pretty much the only thing that get's this zombies worked up. Especially the younger generations.
 

Martina

Jedi Master
This is my biggest fear alongside forced vaccinations and similar global Nazi crap. I can bear comets and volcanoes, ice age and other environmental catastrophes, but the fact that someone wants to take my illusion of freedom and imaginative liberties hits me hard. But there are people who survived Nazi camps with their strong will...
 
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