Re: The tie between psychopathic motivation... removing free will... the devil?

Is freewill defined by a certain amount of options / choices available or simply that an option or choice is potentially always available? If a person's behaviour is defined completely by his programming, his behaviour is 100% predictable. You could say then that he doesn't excercise his freewill, or that he uses his will in one direction only. Would this mean there's no potential to excercise one's will in a different direction once "locked in" or simply that its just harder (needs work) to do otherwise? For me, the key is that the potential to choose otherwise remains, however difficult it is. If this is true, then at any stage of development we can use our will freely to choose one way or another.

Talking about free will, psychopaths seem to have very limited to no range of emotional experiences, to argue that this allows them to have more experiences and so a greater capacity to use freewill is to deny the fact that feelings are experiences. It also denies the fact that feelings opens us up to have richer and more fuller experiences, with potentially an unlimited range therefore of experiences to have. One who is emotionally shutdown cannot exercise his or her freewill to explore this or at least in a very limited way. This means a psychopath's freewill is constrained and limited and therefore much more predictable.
 
Broken piano said:
You have ignored my questions regarding your specialty

Broken piano, this is a discussion about YOU, not about me.

So, I understand you are not able to apologize sincerely and openly. This is already plus (for this discussion). We have learned something about you.

But we want to learn more. Therefore next problem:

You stated

"Psychopaths have the greatest capacity of free will in the realm of anti-social personality disorders as they lack the confines of social dysfunction, comprehension, OCD, mannerisms, etc. "

This is another extraordinary statement (because you imply that it concerns ALL psychopaths and that they have the GREATEST...) , therefore it needs extraordinary proof.

Can you provide such a proof? Or will you also escape by the back door like it was with your first misleading statement? Reading what you wrote I am again suspicious. You are behaving like an artist, not like a scientist.

But I can be mistaken. Were YOU again mistaken writing the above?
 
Broken piano said:
Someone who feels bad or scared to do wrong to another or commit an unethical act has a safety net; it is easy to "choose to behave" when it's difficult to strike down our principles and be something different. When one has no boundaries and can do anything, with complete and true free-will, it is very difficult to will oneself to stop and follow rules that are essentially invisible and non-existent (to the psychopath). It takes far more effort when one doesn't have fear.
What you wrote looks to me as new age package of psychopaths. You converted being "different" to "true free-will". You didn't care of why empathic peoples does what they does for their offspring or to the society for the ultimate benefit of sustenance of the speicies. Because you can't understand, so it didn't exist for you. you simply considered it as a their weakness to project your self as viable alternative. You did some charity that became a sign of being good. You haven't seen people doing charity in your surrounding, that became a general statement. You didn't care to research why normal people programmed to be obedient by extraordinary circuses for thousands of years by the psychopathic elite. You simply took as your greatness and their weakness. It's all about YOU, no concern for any thing else. What you are saying pretty much what researchers of psychopaths are saying over and over again. Just another slick packaging.
 
I wrote the suggestion that my participation may be of some benefit to others to encourage the allowance of my presence. I understand that my thoughts are read with a closed and judgmental mind here once I opened up with a psychopathic personality.

I benefit in no way from manipulating people here into agreeing my personality is a facet of being a person, of human nature. For the statistical scientists in the crowd, nearly five percent of the population demonstrating APD personailty hardly seem an accident by evolution.

I would like to note that as an administrator, Ark, one is normally expected to conduct their business with a professional demeanor and etiquette. Others in this group have demonstrated a far greater level of fairness and courtesy, and written responses towards the whole of the expression, rather than semantics and personal differences. I offered general background to your term as a scientist, to which I might add, no "scientist" in academia or research with whom I have studied or worked have called themselves by such a generic and popularized title. While I have a difficult time taking offense to attacks as shame and humility are not qualities I honestly possess - awareness and social manners are. The point being I do not feel motivated to contribute when it is made to be a great effort and only heard half-heatedly.

I would like to admit that I must be wrong in my natural instinct that one person has a greater free will. Alchemist (sp) so aptly wrote that the execution of free will is the point. A psychopath naturally believes they are superior in making decisions without fear of consequence, inhibition, or social pressure. Of course the emotional loss blinds one from seeing the other side of this. Emotions very well may obscure logical connections, but I understand that the awareness of others and their feelings provides satisfaction, deep connections, and (importantly to someone like me) more information with which to make effective decisions.

I understand why you would hesitate to align with a predator with all the classic ideas such as the scorpion stinging the turtle as they cross a river. However as many psychopaths and the like are engaged as heads of states and businesses, operate as doctors, and protect us as officers of law or of the military, it appears as though positive and mutually beneficial co-existence is quite viable. Some types with schizophrenia and serious mental conditions compounded with psychopathy are a risk and need adequate assistance and control, but fall into the realm of mental disease which compromises the ability to execute the free-will we talk about. Would you rather battle an enemy you see with compassion, respect, and love, or fear an invisible predator walking among you?

The spectrum of human empathy is a scale. It would be arbitrary to select a point or percentage of which determines who is a person and who is not. That is the kind of thinking demonstrated by extreme personalities like narcissists, or by ignorance.
 
Broken piano: we have learned even more about you: you are misleading other people, and you do not even notice it. This feature seems to come naturally in you. It suggests to me a hypothesis that you do not have free will. Am I wrong?
 
Broken Piano, I have given some thought to the issues you bring up with the following result:

1) if you are a psychopath, as you claim, then lying and conning is a fundamental part of your nature, in which case, I cannot believe what you are saying. Even when they speak the truth on occasion, psychopaths do so only for entropic reasons, and it is always and ever mixed with lies or out of context.

2) If what you are saying about your inner landscape is true, then you are not a psychopath, you are misinformed and the issue of why you would adhere to this raises other issues.

As for the Kevin Dutton-style argumentation, I'll let an expert respond to that:

Martha Stout demolishes Kevin Dutton's book on the 'wisdom' of psychopaths

The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success, by Kevin Dutton

Years ago, as a student, I attended some lectures by a prominent anthropologist who regaled his listeners with odd and engaging stories about a group of indigenous people he had lived among in a far-flung corner of the planet. The tales stuck in the mind. Indeed, some of them were so amazing that I came away from his talks sure that counterintuitive but vital truths about human behavior had just been revealed. Only during the final lecture was I granted an inkling that these truths might not bear much relationship to reality. Fairly gleeful in her disdain, one of his indentured graduate assistants whispered to me that, in the field, the anthropologist had offered his subjects chocolate bars in exchange for stories about themselves - the more fantastic the stories, the more plentiful the candy. Avidly scrawling notes, his audience had become an illustration of how easily the foreign and the fascinating can assume the aura of science.

Though I have no reason to think chocolate was involved, I am concerned that a similar phenomenon may occur among readers of The Wisdom of Psychopaths by Kevin Dutton, a research psychologist at the University of Oxford. Dutton's eye-catching thesis is this: "Psychopathy is like sunlight. Overexposure can hasten one's demise in grotesque, carcinogenic fashion. But regulated exposure at controlled and optimal levels can have a significant positive impact on well-being and quality of life." Psychopathy, proposes Dutton, is "personality with a tan."

Strangely, nowhere in this book about psychopathy does Dutton accurately define psychopathy, so I will do so here. Psychopathy is a disorder of brain and behavior, the central characteristic of which is the complete absence of conscience. All of its other pathological features (such as callousness, habitual lying, and ruthlessness) emanate from this defining deficit. Yet, as a tip-off to the major fallacy in his argument, Dutton does not once discuss the concept of conscience, and, in the entire body of his book he mentions the word itself - conscience - a total of four times, and then only in passing.

What Dutton does include are elegant metaphors, a generous number of extremely well-written personal stories, and many allusions to intriguing psychological and neuropsychological studies. Unfortunately, most of the science that he cites possesses a relationship to his thesis that is equivocal at best, and at worst downright misleading. Overall, the book leaves its reader with the impression that psychopathy consists of fearlessness, "irrepressible irreverence," and a life unburdened by what other people think. The reality is more literal: no one matters to a psychopath.

Dutton's claim, if stated in language that is starker and more straightforward than he is willing to use, would be this: people who are devoid of conscience offer us some wise lessons. In particular, our leaders need to consider the mental and behavioral instruction that conscienceless people can provide. To support his argument, he asserts that Neil Armstrong's ability to control his fear while executing a near-impossible lunar landing involved a temporary version of the psychopath's permanent emotional detachment, which leaves the psychopath preternaturally calm. (For readers interested in how people achieve ideal performance, I recommend any of the books on the concept of flow by the eminent psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, whom Dutton mentions only glancingly and inaccurately.)

There are other surprising misunderstandings related to the ostensible lessons psychopaths can impart: Dutton confuses "mental toughness" and "turning the other cheek" with just not giving a damn, and the mental discipline of mindfulness with the psychopath's indifference to future consequences. He conflates the permanent lack of emotion in "functional psychopaths" with the normal person's ability to regulate emotions when decisions must be made under pressure. He seems to view normal emotional responsiveness as a maladaptive distraction. And he decides that, since the psychopath is fearlessly drawn to risks, the psychopath is better equipped to handle an emergency: a psychopath would be more likely to race into a burning building to rescue someone within. Really? Why an individual who feels neither conscience nor caring would wish to save another's life is difficult to imagine, and Dutton's repeated assertions that one might turn the predator's ice-cold focus toward humane endeavors reveals an essential misunderstanding of the nature of the predator.

Dutton's real argument seems to be that sometimes we could all use a little of what he terms "the seven deadly wins" - ruthlessness, charm, focus, mental toughness, fearlessness, mindfulness, and action. Yes, I daresay we could - but those behavioral features do not represent a "dose of psychopathy," to use Dutton's expression. In reality, a touch of psychopathy would mean a malignant streak of brutality, oiliness, predatory single-mindedness, callousness, carelessness, exclusive self-involvement, and clinical impulsivity.

Perhaps the most surprising obfuscation of all occurs as Dutton plays fast and loose with the definition of empathy. He blurs the distinction between cognitive empathy (knowing that someone is experiencing a feeling) and emotional empathy (the ability to experience that feeling oneself), and having created this fuzziness, he declares - despite the mountain of scientific data to the contrary - that psychopaths are emotionally empathic.

Like so many of us who have good hearts, Dutton would like very much to demonstrate that not every psychopath is utterly heartless. (The first sentence of the book is a startling declaration that his own father was a psychopath.) He summons a conjectural subset, called "functional psychopaths," who are somewhat warmer. As it happens, there is an existing diagnostic term for the nearly psychopathic - the self-centered, unempathic people who nonetheless, in their own way, can love. The term is narcissism; and, reading with a psychologist's eye to the distinction, I suspect that a number of the undiagnosed individuals described by Dutton, including perhaps his charismatic father, were narcissists, rather than living beyond the boundary line in the icy wasteland of psychopathy. If Dutton had titled his book "The Wisdom of Narcissists," he might have made a more credible case: psychologists largely agree that human beings need a certain amount of "normal" narcissism to be healthy. But narcissism varies by degree. The emotional black hole of consciencelessness does not.

It is quite true that the majority of psychopaths are nonviolent, and that all too many "use their detached, unflinching, and charismatic personalities to succeed in mainstream society." (This fact has been emphasized by several writers before Dutton.) But - unsettling as it may be to understand - these mainstream-society-dwelling individuals do not constitute some special type of tamped-down wannabes who have retained a "functional" level of human warmth, as Dutton proposes. They are psychopaths, cold and conscienceless. We judge some of these people to be worse than others because some of them exhibit more horrific behaviors. We consider the psychopathic serial killer more terrifying than the psychopathic person who steals his employees' pensions. But the underlying pathology is the same. Psychopathy is a profound and tragic disorder, one for which, at present, there is no cure. No matter how successful he or she may be, the psychopath is not wise. He or she is a loveless and empty individual whose life will be wasted, inexorably.

If you are entertained by well-written tales from a research psychologist who has used himself as a subject in a questionably pertinent neurological lab procedure, has toured Italy's Museum of Serial Killers, and has visited some actual psychopaths at Broadmoor Hospital in England; and if you have an interest in reading about famously pathological criminals - such as the serial killer who inspired Hannibal Lecter - then perhaps you will enjoy Kevin Dutton's book. If you want a scientifically informed argument that speaks meaningfully to the arresting question raised by its title, you will be disappointed. The book neither answers that question nor validly associates psychopaths with stoic saints and contemplative Buddhist monks. As a professional who has spent decades studying the bleak disorder of consciencelessness, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that there is no wisdom in psychopathy. There is only an irredeemable emptiness that should not and cannot be served up in "doses."

Martha Stout, Ph.D., is the author of The Myth of Sanity, The Paranoia Switch, and The Sociopath Next Door.
 
However as many psychopaths and the like are engaged as heads of states and businesses, operate as doctors, and protect us as officers of law or of the military, it appears as though positive and mutually beneficial co-existence is quite viable. Some types with schizophrenia and serious mental conditions compounded with psychopathy are a risk and need adequate assistance and control, but fall into the realm of mental disease which compromises the ability to execute the free-will we talk about. Would you rather battle an enemy you see with compassion, respect, and love, or fear an invisible predator walking among you?

I don't know in which world you live, Broken Piano, but if I look around, all I can see is misery, corruption, death and destruction - and in my books the majority of this is on account of psychopaths. There is no "mutually beneficial co-existence" between a predator and its victim - the benefit lies squarely on the side of the predator - food! And I also don't think that any victim will feel much "compassion" towards its predator. So there is a third option - to learn to SEE "the invisible predator walking amongst us", and then to fight it with everything at my disposal.

So my option still remains the same - putting as much distance between me and a psychopath as possible, as the risk to incur damage is so much bigger than any benefit that I can perceive.

Godspeed!
 
nicklebleu said:
However as many psychopaths and the like are engaged as heads of states and businesses, operate as doctors, and protect us as officers of law or of the military, it appears as though positive and mutually beneficial co-existence is quite viable. Some types with schizophrenia and serious mental conditions compounded with psychopathy are a risk and need adequate assistance and control, but fall into the realm of mental disease which compromises the ability to execute the free-will we talk about. Would you rather battle an enemy you see with compassion, respect, and love, or fear an invisible predator walking among you?
I don't know in which world you live, Broken Piano, but if I look around, all I can see is misery, corruption, death and destruction - and in my books the majority of this is on account of psychopaths. There is no "mutually beneficial co-existence" between a predator and its victim - the benefit lies squarely on the side of the predator - food! And I also don't think that any victim will feel much "compassion" towards its predator. So there is a third option - to learn to SEE "the invisible predator walking amongst us", and then to fight it with everything at my disposal.

So my option still remains the same - putting as much distance between me and a psychopath as possible, as the risk to incur damage is so much bigger than any benefit that I can perceive....

Laura said:
Broken Piano, I have given some thought to the issues you bring up with the following result:
1) if you are a psychopath, as you claim, then lying and conning is a fundamental part of your nature, in which case, I cannot believe what you are saying. Even when they speak the truth on occasion, psychopaths do so only for entropic reasons, and it is always and ever mixed with lies or out of context.


Seems everthing of essence (to this topic) have already been said, so I'll just "mop up" with a tune from Henry Rollins which IMO perfectly describes the essence of a psychopath:
__http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awY1MRlMKMc

I thus take for granted that You, Broken piano, understand that nothing good can be built on a lie.
 
Broken piano said:
I wrote the suggestion that my participation may be of some benefit to others to encourage the allowance of my presence. I understand that my thoughts are read with a closed and judgmental mind here once I opened up with a psychopathic personality.
I'd say this falls under black and white thinking. If I understand correctly, what you're saying is if we don't "encourage the allowance of your presence" then we are closed minded and judgmental. It seems you are attempting to control our perception of the choices we have down to two. In other words, you are attempting to use emotional manipulation (our desire to be 'good', benevolent, etc) in order to get what you want. If you are indeed a psychopath, then the reality of the situation dictates that those who are not should keep this idea firmly in mind and do what they can to prevent being swayed by this argument.

Being "open minded" means that one is willing to consider information they may initially find distasteful in order to see things more objectively - in other words seeing things as they are. Black and white thinking is subjective - a projection of what's really inside of the mind of the person displaying this behavior.

The above quote reminds me of shaming:
A most ironic fact is that almost no one is as expert on the topic of neurosis as is the disturbed character. Individuals with disordered characters know full well that those with well-developed consciences tend to feel guilty easily if they think they’ve done something wrong. Such individuals also have a big sense of shame when they think they’ve behaved in a manner that reflects negatively on their character. Neurotics try hard not only to project a positive image, but also to do the right thing. Disordered characters know this very well. So, when the person with a disturbed character wants to manipulate a good neurotic, all they have to do is somehow convince them that they’ve done wrong or behaved in a manner they should feel ashamed of.
_http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/02/24/shame-guilt-neurotic-manipulation/

Your quote above makes the next statement interesting as it attempts to deny the very thing you just did:
Broken piano said:
I benefit in no way from manipulating people here into agreeing my personality is a facet of being a person, of human nature. For the statistical scientists in the crowd, nearly five percent of the population demonstrating APD personailty hardly seem an accident by evolution.
Yet you use the "open minded" argument at least twice so far. A very subtle form of emotional manipulation in order to convince. For someone who claims not to care, the fact that you keep making this attempt says otherwise.

Broken piano said:
I would like to note that as an administrator, Ark, one is normally expected to conduct their business with a professional demeanor and etiquette. Others in this group have demonstrated a far greater level of fairness and courtesy, and written responses towards the whole of the expression, rather than semantics and personal differences. I offered general background to your term as a scientist, to which I might add, no "scientist" in academia or research with whom I have studied or worked have called themselves by such a generic and popularized title. While I have a difficult time taking offense to attacks as shame and humility are not qualities I honestly possess - awareness and social manners are. The point being I do not feel motivated to contribute when it is made to be a great effort and only heard half-heatedly.
The part in bold, to me, can be placed again, under the general heading of manipulation. It's an attempt to put Ark "in his place" (not only in his own mind, but the minds of those reading as well) - to separate him from the heard so to speak. Interesting that you would mention shame. You may not feel it, but are aware that others might and thus use it against them.

Leveling:

Leveling is a slick tool which manipulators use to try and “level the playing field” or field of interpersonal contest.

<snip>
One of the more subtle but nonetheless highly effective responsibility-avoidance and manipulation tactics is “leveling.” Leveling refers to the disturbed character’s attempt to put himself on equal standing with others of different character. It generally takes two forms: setting oneself up as a person of equal stature to a person in authority; and trying to equate one’s own character, personal value, integrity, etc. with someone else’s, especially one of more mature or superior character.
_http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/04/01/leveling-as-manipulation-tactic/

Broken piano said:
I would like to admit that I must be wrong in my natural instinct that one person has a greater free will. Alchemist (sp) so aptly wrote that the execution of free will is the point. A psychopath naturally believes they are superior in making decisions without fear of consequence, inhibition, or social pressure. Of course the emotional loss blinds one from seeing the other side of this. Emotions very well may obscure logical connections, but I understand that the awareness of others and their feelings provides satisfaction, deep connections, and (importantly to someone like me) more information with which to make effective decisions.

I understand why you would hesitate to align with a predator with all the classic ideas such as the scorpion stinging the turtle as they cross a river. However as many psychopaths and the like are engaged as heads of states and businesses, operate as doctors, and protect us as officers of law or of the military, it appears as though positive and mutually beneficial co-existence is quite viable. Some types with schizophrenia and serious mental conditions compounded with psychopathy are a risk and need adequate assistance and control, but fall into the realm of mental disease which compromises the ability to execute the free-will we talk about. Would you rather battle an enemy you see with compassion, respect, and love, or fear an invisible predator walking among you?

Manipulation via servant role:

One of the more subtle ways that a person hell-bent upon power and control can veil their will to dominate is to cloak it under the cover of subservience to a higher cause or the purported desire to be of service. <snip>
_http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/03/25/manipulation-via-servant-role/

If you are a psychopath as you say, then the fact is that you have no ability to feel compassion, respect or love for people. Interesting that you see nothing wrong with asking something from others which you are unable to give.

Broken piano said:
The spectrum of human empathy is a scale. It would be arbitrary to select a point or percentage of which determines who is a person and who is not. That is the kind of thinking demonstrated by extreme personalities like narcissists, or by ignorance.
One last attempt to hook. This again shows a split in thinking that reveals more about your internal state.

edit: clarity
 
... and not to forget playing the victim:

Broken piano said:
Sustainability is key and I believe finding the right tools and exposing ones nature are crucial. Make it nearly impossible to deceive and hide, and a co-operative effort is left. Of course those around you must understand the nature of the motivation and see the positive results is can produce instead of fearing understanding it.

Broken piano said:
If a psychopath is understood, and given the right motivation to do well and play by the rules, they may succeed. If their stigma remains, and they remain segregated to do as they want, they will. Random people, seemingly normal, break years of normal behaviour and shake our society, often through violence, because they was no guide or support for the individual. A label is a powerful thing.

None of us can perfectly feel what another does, or know exactly what they are thinking. It seems somewhat contradictory from my experience that people of an empathetic and human nature would seek to exclude members of our race who are different. I believe that if I, with my disposition, have the will to be a part of the team, then others can too. Thinking, reasoning, growing, evolving together - that seems to make humans people.

M.T.
 
The C's would probably put it this way: "A broken piano does not play 'in tune' with this group!".
 
I wonder:

"Broken Piano" - Frank Turner

As I walked out one morning fair,
I found myself drawn thoughtlessly
Back to the place we used to live,
And you still do, now without me.

Around the back, away from the road,
Behind the bins, beneath your window,
I found the hulk, the rusting bulk
Of a shattered old piano.
Someone had torn out some of the keys
With cruel care, not thoughtlessly,
In such a way that one could only play
Minor melodies.

So I sat down in my sadness, beneath your window,
And I played sad songs on the minor keys of a broken piano;
A sinner amongst saved men on the banks of the muddy Thames.

As I have wandered through this city,
Like a child lost in the London fog,

From Highgate Hill, down to the river,
Then washed downstream past the Isle of Dogs,

I've had time enough to think upon
The question of what kind of songs
That you would choose to listen to
Now that I am gone.
And as I drift beneath that bridge,
Just down the road from where you live,

I've often thought I might have caught
Your voice upon the wind.

But as I stroked those broken keys
You did not join in harmony.


Narcissistic, self-pitying appeals for sympathy. I am different but special. It would be of benefit to you to bring me, and those like me, into your hearts.Society has got it wrong.

BP has found a place in another forum: _sociopath-community.com/topic/2014-02-11/motivation-1

He mentions his physical fitness, necessary for a violent predator. But I think he says that because he thinks it will ingratiate him with the others there, or provide the hint of a threat that might frighten them into respecting him, much the way many insecure, under-developed males do in macho environments.

My own sense is that he is not a fully paid up member of the socio/psychopath club - but thinks he would like to be. Possibly in the mould of Sherlock who actually describes himself as a 'high-functioning' sociopath (Brilliant series. Benedict Cumberpatch is superb as the modern Sherlock Holmes) This is the very dynamic that has been discussed on the forum, and has been promoted by the likes of Kevin Dutton: Psychopathy is trendy.

Or I could be completely wrong. Perhaps BP will let me know.
 
Sherlock Holmes was in no sense a sociopath. The buzzword is just being used nowadays to "popularize" psychopathy.
 
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