I have 2 questions for cassiopaeans

Gonzo said:
Hi Howe,
I still don't understand how you differentiate between "the divine", your ego and ideas being broadcast directly to your mind by beings more clever than most can imagine.

Howe said:
...
I can only say that the knowledge is deep within and when the divine permits it will surface in my consciousness.
...
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Well, I'd like to add something here. Many people receive messages, visions or similar during meditation, dream or in awake state. The Home of ALL KNOWLEDGE is in every living human being (I don't know about other entities and species). One should build a path to it bringing brick by brick of knowledge. Howe, you suggest that your development as a spiritual being has nothing to do with YOUR efforts, but with the will of the divine. I think you should reconsider your attitude toward yourself.


by Gonzo: By focussing on the apparent failures of methods you deem of lesser value, you automatically put the ones you believe to be better on a pedestal, far removed from critical assessment. It might be wiser to assess all against a stable, consistent set of criteria, where nothing is sacred and above inspection.
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The messages and/or visions received should be taken as road signs pointing the way not the destination. It is up to us to understand the message and stabilize it in our consciousness by filling the gaps by learning and confirming with known facts. You should trust your insights in order to explore the meaning and to test them, what was the actual message. Belief and Knowledge are not on the same road.

Also, I wanted to explain my understanding of the 7th D you asked earlier.
Can you imagine a fountain (the type with recirculating water system)? The pump lifts the water up through the pipe to its top were it disperses in drops and water falls into a basin where the pump suck it in the pipe, lift it up again and again. So, in this image the 7th D could be positioned at the top of the pipe were all water disperses around. During the dispersion it changes the energy level/quality and becomes available to pump (1st D) to bring it up to the next level. Quality of energy changes with every centimeter the water distance from the ground, as well as our journey to the light. I think that this comparison is not too bad as an attempt of explanation of the 7th D.
Our task as human beings is not to be lifted up but to lift up ourselves. That's the pump. Who would pump for you or anyone other? But if we all pump for us, we actually provide more energy to lift us up ALL TOGETHER. This means that coherent pumping will bring more energy to all than a sum of individual pumping efforts. This also means that pumping with others you pump for yourself.
I don't know if this make it easier to understand the 7th D or more difficult.
S.
 
Well,I guess my level of universal intelligence is far below most of you,but I am forever learning.
Practice your meditation and the time will come when you can feel what is true and what is false.It is useless to try to explain or convince those who have not reach that stage where they will feel the truth and what is correct and what is not.It is within you yourselves to evolve and elevate to that state of awareness where you know the true feeling of what is true and what is not. No body can do that for you!
Be patient,you will reach that stage of true awareness within yourself.

After posting the last reply,I felt a strong need to meditate,but I could'nt find the peace to. I had these floating into my consious mind for about three days and on the 17th I setup my notebook to post these words.:-
"I have a favour to ask. Please delete my member account here and wipe out all traces of my existence in the forum. Just take it that I never existed.Thank you for your hospitality.Please respect my wishes on this."
but I had an important thing to do first.As it turn out I did not have the time as I had not finished with the tasks in hand.That night I finally found the time to meditate and through it I realise that some force or other wanted me to disappear completely from cassiopaea's forum. The words above are as close as what came into my consiousness to cause a real urge to post it and quit the cassiopaea websites.
In my meditation I realised that some force wanted me to disappear from the forum for fear that I might discover some deep dark secret or some sinister plot.Another thing is that I may awaken people to see what there is to see. well, the divine knows about it now.
I have to my original path and work to do and I must not be distracted by what goes on here.
Please Do Not misunderstand what I said. This is what happened and I am maintaining an open mind and maybe In time I may understand why or what it is.
 
Try not to look at things through your limited human mind.Meditate as

often and as much as you can so that you can reach a level where you are

able to comprehend things.The true feeling within you will manifest and

you will be able to experience true awareness.

If you do not try to help yourselves nobody else can help you!
 
Howe said:
Well,I guess my level of universal intelligence is far below most of you,but I am forever
learning.
Practice your meditation and the time will come when you can feel what is true and what is false.It is useless to try to explain or convince those who have not reach that stage where they will feel the truth and what is correct and what is not.It is within you yourselves to evolve and elevate to that state of awareness where you know the true feeling of what is true and what is not. No body can do that for you!
Be patient,you will reach that stage of true awareness within yourself.
Click to expand...

There are many ways of meditating and inside those ways there are infinite states of
consciousness, concerning the level of being of the meditator.
Now it seems common to experience subjective emotional states believing we are experiencing higher conscioussnes states.

In states of introspective meditation we found ourselves more in contact with our emotional life, and we can confuse these emotional states with higher states of consciousness or contact with the higher self, specially if in our day to day life we had been suppressing emotions.

ISOTM said:
"I do not know what you call 'cosmic consciousness,' " said G., "it is a vague and indefinite
term; anyone can call anything he likes by it. In most cases what is called 'cosmic
consciousness' is simply fantasy, associative daydreaming connected with intensified work of the emotional center. Sometimes it comes near to ecstasy but most often it is merely a subjective emotional experience on the level of dreams.
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ISOTM said:
"In order to understand what the difference between states of consciousness is, let us return to the first state of consciousness which is sleep. This is an entirely subjective state of consciousness. A man is immersed in dreams, whether he remembers them or not does not matter.
Even if some real impressions reach him, such as sounds, voices, warmth, cold, the sensation of his own body, they arouse in him only fantastic subjective images. Then a man wakes up. At first glance this is a quite different state of consciousness. He can move, he can talk with other people, he can make calculations ahead, he can see danger and avoid it, and so on. Istands to reason that he is in a better position than when he was asleep. But if we go a little more deeply into things, if we take a look into his inner world, into his thoughts, into the causes of his actions, we shall see that he is in almost the same state as when he is asleep. And it is even worse, because in sleep he is passive, that is, he cannot do anything. In the waking state, however, he can do something all the time and the results of all his actions will be reflected upon him or upon those around him. And yet he does not remember himself. He is a machine, everything with him happens. He cannot stop the flow of his thoughts, he cannot control his imagination, his emotions, his attention. He lives in a subjective world of 'I love,' 'I do not love,' 'I like,' 'I do not like,' 'I want,' 'I do not want,' that is, of what he thinks he likes, of what he thinks he does not like, of what he thinks he wants, of what he thinks he does not want. He does not see the real world. The real world is hidden from him by the wall of imagination. He lives in sleep. He is asleep. What is called 'clear consciousness' is sleep and a far more dangerous sleep than sleep at night in bed.
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Howe said:
After posting the last reply,I felt a strong need to meditate,but I could'nt find the peace to.
I had these floating into my consious mind for about three days and on the 17th I setup my notebook to post these words.:-
"I have a favour to ask. Please delete my member account here and wipe out all traces of my existence in the forum. Just take it that I never existed.Thank you for your hospitality.Please respect my wishes on this."
Click to expand...
The Ego feels a strong need of escaping when is exposed and vulnerable, something you may want to think about and carefully observe, if you really want to know the truth about yourself.


Howe said:
but I had an important thing to do first.As it turn out I did not have the time as I had not
finished with the tasks in hand.That night I finally found the time to meditate and through it I realise that some force or other wanted me to disappear completely from cassiopaea'forum. The words above are as close as what came into my consiousness to cause a real urge to post it and quit the cassiopaea websites.
In my meditation I realised that some force wanted me to disappear from the forum for fear that I might discover some deep dark secret or some sinister plot.Another thing is that I may awaken people to see what there is to see. well, the divine knows about it now.
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Your ego is fearing the consecuences of being here, and generates ways of defense to ensure its survival.

You may want to assess the possibility, that it is your ego and its delusions of grandeur fueled by the identification of the sleeper/you what is running the show.

Howe said:
I have to my original path and work to do and I must not be distracted by what goes on here.
Please Do Not misunderstand what I said. This is what happened and I am maintaining an open mind and maybe In time I may understand why or what it is.
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It is up to you Howe, now anyone aspiring to no less than truth should take into account not only their internal experiences but also the outside input and here there is a network ready to do it.

You can ask yourself:
Wich degree of control i have over myself?
How objective am i able to see others and the world i live in?
Wich purpose do i serve and how?

'Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.' -- Cassiopaeans, 09-28-02
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Quote:howe, I get the impressions from a couple of remarks you have made that you may think that the label “Disturbance in the Force” was some sort of judgement on you. Just in case that is how you have interpreted it, let me clarify that all new members of the forum are welcomed with the category “A Disturbance in the Force”.

I am really tired of all the misunderstanding in this thread, of having the wrong ideas,wrong impressions of and jumping to the wrong conclusions about me and what I am saying in the replys.
Lets end this thread so that there will be no confusions.
 
howe said:
Quote:howe, I get the impressions from a couple of remarks you have made that you may think that the label “Disturbance in the Force” was some sort of judgement on you. Just in case that is how you have interpreted it, let me clarify that all new members of the forum are welcomed with the category “A Disturbance in the Force”.

I am really tired of all the misunderstanding in this thread, of having the wrong ideas,wrong impressions of and jumping to the wrong conclusions about me and what I am saying in the replys.
Lets end this thread so that there will be no confusions.
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From what I have read of this thread, there is no misunderstanding, wrong ideas, wrong impressions and jumping to the wrong conclusions about you.

What you have posted in this thread sounds very much like a strong self-importance program running. This is normal and not unusual at all. We all have them. The fact that you seem to think that all you have to do is meditate and you can know yourself, is only partly right. Knowing yourself takes Work. And I agree with everything that Ana has posted. It is very easy to start dreaming that we are awake. The predator's mind is very manipulative in making us believe that we are awake and aware, all the while we are only dreaming.

In order to really know ourselves, to free us from the numerous programs that are running us, takes more than meditation, although that is a catalyst in getting our repressed emotions moving up to the surface so that they can be dealt with. But we also need knowledge of what they are, what caused them in the first place and how to let them go.

That's why there are the books in the recommended reading list. Just sitting there meditating is only part of the equation. The rest is hard Work on cleaning our machines.

Receiving "messages" while in a meditative state can be dangerous to ones progress to self-knowledge and overcoming our programs if not looked at in an objective manner. Who know who/what is really sending those messages? One of the best well-laid plans of 4D STS is to look like divine guidance when, in fact, it is taking us down the path of entropy. It is very dangerous, or so I think, to simply believe something someone receives while in a meditative state as "truth" when, in fact, it could be pure disinformation to lead us astray.

There should always be that critical thinking that looks and inspects everything that pops into our minds. Knowledge protects after all.
 
I have something to say here.........


reading this post has left me aghast at the lack of care and plain bullying that has taken place.

This poor person, Howe, has some questions that he/she is courageously sharing with earnest and sincerity, and has received nothing but plain bullying in return.

I have seen it before on this site and it's a plain disgrace.

Assumptions that this person has not read "the recommended material" that they are not doing "the work" and accusations that they are full of self importance, followed by a continual barrage of unsolicited advice that had nothing to do with the initial questioning they began the post with - ie, that is all off topic.

Nienna Eluch, you are obviously quite a young person and I can make some allowance, but I have come across you before in a discussion (see Qs to the Cs about cancer and aids), and I experienced nothing but awful self righteousness and self importance from you, just as this person Howe has had to contend with. Even when Howe politely requests to end this thread so that there will be no confusions, you continue to disregard his request in place of your own predator mind's desire to overpower him, steam rolling him again, to gratify your own need to feed your self importance and righteousness. Incredibly rude, and you really ought to pull your head in.

I feel for you Howe, I hear exactly and clearly where you are at. There is no misunderstanding there. I am saddened that these other people have let this whole Cs experience run away with them. It happens all the time in this world - religion is a prime example, whereby, a certain few become self righteous and all knowing, and push their own agenda onto others, without the compassion and empathy that is the underlying and true message of whatever doctrine they are advocating for.

Like I said, I am aghast and really feel for you Howe.

Laura, you ought to know better, and really should consider pulling some of your people into line. This is not how it is supposed to be at all.
 
Laura said:
howe said:
I can only say that the knowledge is deep within and when the divine permits it will surface in my consiousness.
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Too bad that way of getting knowledge does not seem to be serving you well as your complete misunderstanding of nearly everything said so far indicates.
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Did you really have to go on the attack because a newbe is grappling with concepts that you have mastered?
 
iloveyoghurt, have you read this thread? http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=19418.0

iloveyoghurt said:
I have something to say here.........

reading this post has left me aghast at the lack of care and plain bullying that has taken place.
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What you see as "lack of care" and "bullying" is nothing of the kind. You seem to be interpreting the dynamics of this forum through your own programs. That's quite normal, but the point of discussions here is to identify those programs, so that they don't control us. And to offer feedback when those programs are running IN ORDER to be able to see them in ourselves. It might help for you to reread whatever replies are bothering you, and seeing how they make you feel. Then try reading them again, trying to see the real intent. If a person writes, "Knowledge comes from within. From that knowledge I have learned that 2+2=5", and if another replies, "2+2 does not equal 5. Your way of thinking is wrong", then is that rude? Or is it just the truth? We're not here to "be nice" per se, but to offer objective feedback. More often than not, it's hard to hear, but that's why it's called the Work!

This poor person, Howe, has some questions that he/she is courageously sharing with earnest and sincerity, and has received nothing but plain bullying in return.
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Seems like identification and projection here.

I have seen it before on this site and it's a plain disgrace.

Assumptions that this person has not read "the recommended material" that they are not doing "the work" and accusations that they are full of self importance, followed by a continual barrage of unsolicited advice that had nothing to do with the initial questioning they began the post with - ie, that is all off topic.
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Again, have you read the thread above?

Nienna Eluch, you are obviously quite a young person and I can make some allowance, but I have come across you before in a discussion (see Qs to the Cs about cancer and aids), and I experienced nothing but awful self righteousness and self importance from you, just as this person Howe has had to contend with. Even when Howe politely requests to end this thread so that there will be no confusions, you continue to disregard his request in place of your own predator mind's desire to overpower him, steam rolling him again, to gratify your own need to feed your self importance and righteousness. Incredibly rude, and you really ought to pull your head in.
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Have you considered that it is YOU whose predator's mind is in control? That your biases, programs, and conditioning are what is causing you to misread what goes on here because of your own filters of perception?

I feel for you Howe, I hear exactly and clearly where you are at. There is no misunderstanding there. I am saddened that these other people have let this whole Cs experience run away with them. It happens all the time in this world - religion is a prime example, whereby, a certain few become self righteous and all knowing, and push their own agenda onto others, without the compassion and empathy that is the underlying and true message of whatever doctrine they are advocating for.

Like I said, I am aghast and really feel for you Howe.

Laura, you ought to know better, and really should consider pulling some of your people into line. This is not how it is supposed to be at all.
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If you are so certain that the approach on this forum is "not how it is supposed to be at all", why are you here? Are you so certain the way you see the world is correct? That you know how it SHOULD be? Do you want to learn? Or to teach? If you want to teach, there's no one stopping you from creating your own forum based on whatever ideals you think are "correct"... fwiw
 
Hi iloveyogurt,

I read through this entire topic and I don't see the bullying that you see. If anything, everyone has been trying to be as helpful as possible to howe. Laura rightly pointed out to a member that a newbie here cannot possibly know "external consideration" and to his/her credit s/he apologized for it. Could you please point out where in this topic you see "bullying"? :huh:
 
I'll get back to you soon properly (I have to go to a meeting),

but to answer you Vulcan, I see that that 's what Laura did initially, ie, pointed out to a member that a newbie here cannot possibly know "external consideration", and I thought that was great to see - it really seemed to be going out of control (the bullying) and I was cringing for poor Howe. But then later she dug the boots in (joined the bandwagon) with the comment: "Too bad that way of getting knowledge does not seem to be serving you well as your complete misunderstanding of nearly everything said so far indicates." And this was only in response to him not understanding that her initial comment was directed at correcting the other member.

My point is - and it's just a heartfelt plea - take it easy on us, our resources, networks, time, experience...etc are not all equal. Surely some restraint is helpful when you see error in another who has not reached the same level of understanding as your own.

I have been sincerely shocked and disappointed at the responses I've seen, and experienced. The Cs work is amazing, and like others probably, I was so grateful to find a network of query of the same level as myself (ie, stretch the awareness to the limits), it's been kinda heartbreaking to be, and see others just fully shot down by others that are more advanced.

My perspective is as valid as another's, and therefore I expect helpful to the group as a whole.


For exact examples etc I will post later. I think that would be helpful, yes.

:(
 
Hi iloveyoghurt,

When people who are used to discussions using all of the formalities based in social programming come to a forum that is attempting to be void of such things, there will occasionally be the perception of ganging up or jumping on the bandwagon as you say.

But generally what really transpires is members speaking without emotions or ego influences, comments void of programs like the make nice program and the turn the other cheek program.

For those witnessing, who have not identified their programs, they will experience sensations of over empathizing, cringing and squirming as someone gets challenged on a program, opinion, a counterproductive belief structure or for asking something to be handed to them on a silver platter without at the very least, catching up on the basic concepts discussed here.

To cater to the programs serves no human. To hand things over without the requestor investing their own effort and energy creates imbalance and karmic indebtedness, not to mention hinders the requestor by giving them a shortcut.

This is not a forum for anything but researching objective truths and testing the Cassiopaeans' insightful messages while concentrating on eliminating programs, healing physical and emotional wounds and progressing the self in accordance with Gurdjieff's fourth way concepts,

Your reaction is precisely this. You are identifying too much with Howe and felt that everyone should allow howe to hold opinions or beliefs that are counterproductive to the work.

While howe was certainly trying to be polite and considerate, I felt he (assuming he's a he, apologies if I'm wrong) seemed unable or unwilling to challenge himself vis a vis discernment. For example, his certainty that he was receiving messages from the divine may be true, but it may also be a trap he has fallen into. Messages from the divine are often tools of entities most undivine, mixing truths with just enough lies so that the messages ring true and the recipient forms opinions that could include lies and eventually become entrenched as beliefs.

Instead of opinions, we work with facts and try to form working hypotheses, based on objective analysis through a network of like-minded individuals, furthering the level of exploration and discernment. These hypotheses are subject to change with new information.

If someone is rigid in their thinking and they want to participate here, they need to be open to the possibility that their opinions ore just that, opinions not facts. There are no sacred cows allowed here.

The moderators do an excellent job assessing whether members contribute or take away from the forum's objectives. Often, the go to great pains, discussing among themselves how long they should tolerate a member's inability to see where they need to make changes, as a member unable or unwilling to look objectively at themselves causes great disturbance and constant effort to support.

They have to protect the forum as much as help a member clear their eyes that they may see.

Occasionally a member might get overzealous in pointing out another member's programs, especially if they forget or were unaware the member they were trying to help was new. This usually gets corrected quickly and things move forward.

But I have never witnessed an occasion where anybody gangs up on another, unless you call several members agreeing that someone is having difficulty seeing a sacred cow ganging up, in which case, you should examine your own reactions. That is what we all are supposed to be doing constantly.

It would be helpful to remember that this is a private forum and not a public forum. There is no democracy here. There is a required level of authority invested in the moderators by the owners that they may protect the forum members from distractions, predatory behaviour, disinformation and energy drains. And I cannot convey enough gratitude for the difficult and amazing work they do.

I hope you are able to go over areas where you felt people were being rude or ganging up on someone and try to identify what you are feeling on a deeper level and see if you can consider where you projected yourself onto a situation and overidentified with the situation. Try to consider that these people were actually being objective and unemotional and were trying to help not harm.

Everything is done here with the deepest love I have even known from relative strangers but it can look like something else to someone unfamiliar with the approaches and methods used here.

If you continue feeling the way you do, perhaps this isn't for you or this isn't your time for this. That's fine. It is your choice after all.

But if you decide you recognize that you erred, were quick to judge and projected your feelings onto someone else, it would be most helpful if you would explain the process you went through to come to that realization so that others reading this may benefit.

Whatever you chose, I wish you well.

Regards,
Gonzo
 
Hi Gonzo,

I hear what you are saying, and I see that I did act passionately. I wanted to express my frustration; I do empathise with Howe and see his/her perspective and level of query - perhaps from projection, as I have been in his situation. I see also, as others here have, where he is struggling and perhaps where his questioning is circular. Most of us are sincere questioners though. We do the work ourselves, when we hit a brick wall in our own enquiry, we bring it to the forum. It's jumping the gun a bit to assume that one is not doing the work and wanting things on a platter, just because someone poses a question. (For example pointing people to The Wave series on just the 2nd or 3rd post, without even asking whether the questioner has explored the material).

It's very difficult when you post a query and instead of having that query explored, the whole thing reels off to an analysis of the questioners level of self awareness, by self appointed redeemers. Ie, Howe didn't ask for this analysis of his person - that would be another topical post no? It's very difficult to post a query period - questions of the type that this forum attracts are rather multi-layered, esoteric, abstract and difficult to bring up to a level of consciousness that is able to be clearly articulated. Unfortunately amounting to much room for confusion and misunderstanding. I am not advocating for the cultivation of "make nice program" of course, but to give people a bit of room and space, and understand that we do - for right or wrong - struggle with our own veils.

I didn't mention any "ganging up", sorry if this was implied, I don't feel that this was the case I see that mostly the posts have been within boundaries of the initial query Howe has posted, but the jabs here and there, and from the usual posters, are less conducive to bridging understanding, and cultivating an open space to do so, imo, - it kinda just shuts a person down, and that's just a shame, and I felt it would be irresponsible for me not to post my perspective, and support Howe a bit here.

As mentioned, writing is rather difficult as it is multi-layered. Much easier face to face. I hope I have explained a bit more. I am learning too.
 
truth seeker said:
Hi iloveyogurt,

I was unable to find an intro for you. Perhaps I missed it. Did you happen to post one? :)
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Will do this weekend truth seeker. No I didn't happen to post one as yet :)
 
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