Crushed & Confused...

O

Ominous

Jedi
I've been reminded in a crushing way how much progress I HAVEN'T made towards STO. I have not been strong enough to extricate myself from a very destructiue & painful (for me) situation. My personal selfish feelings won't allow me to let go of the cause of my suffering. I'd rather live w/ pain anxiety & stress than w/out it seems. Its very sick, & I'm wondering if I'm not truly going insane. I hang onto wishful thinking like a life raft. My reason & intellect know its unhealthy, but what I perceive to be my heart won't allow me to make changes because the emotional pain is so unbearable that extremely erratic & uncharacteristic thoughts pop into my head. People tell me to get a backbone or man up, but I feel like only a half a man anyway. Its worse than drug addiction at this point. Very confused...
 
Exactly the same here man, and I mean word for word.

Anesthetized, unable to help anyone, unwilling to help myself even in the most basic ways.

Have always been so empty inside, there was never a "spark" there in the first place, maybe the darkness was chosen? Doesn't make sense any other way, any affirmation that there is anything good inside is just a lie.

Chicken noodle soup?

Not every turtle ever makes it out to sea after all.
 
Ominous said:
I've been reminded in a crushing way how much progress I HAVEN'T made towards STO
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Hello Ominous,

Maybe you are putting the cart before the horse there.
I think it is very difficult for anyone to be striving toward STO without working on "cleaning up your machine".
If you can barely walk you cannot hope to run.
If you are not psychologically stable enough and if the conditions around you aren't more or less stabilized it might prove difficult for you to see things clearly (although you seem aware that you present situation isn't really helping) at least for the moment osit.

Maybe professional help would be beneficial at this point ?
 
If you can barely walk you cannot hope to run.
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well , very good point.
Ominous, i ll tell you how i am trying to deal with it now.
I also had similar problem.
Currently , i am trying to help my friends in need.
Thing is that i got a lot of computers , because it is my passion ( or was ;P )
In my country , there are still a lot of people who cant afford one.
So whenever my friends needs one , i am just giving it to him with no regret.
Other help i try to give to other is for example simple help when repairing a car or helping out when friends need it when building house.Anything , simply anything that you can offer , just do it.
After several tries you will see that they are very greatfull for your help , then you will see more and more things , and you finally will reach another step. New visions will arise along with new problems.
That was my way of getting out of this circle of madness that you just mentioned.
 
Novelis said:
Exactly the same here man, and I mean word for word.

Anesthetized, unable to help anyone, unwilling to help myself even in the most basic ways.

Have always been so empty inside, there was never a "spark" there in the first place, maybe the darkness was chosen? Doesn't make sense any other way, any affirmation that there is anything good inside is just a lie.

Chicken noodle soup?

Not every turtle ever makes it out to sea after all.
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Dark night of the soul uh ? ;)
I maybe wrong on this but why are you beating yourself up like that ?
Is there a part of you that enjoys it ?
Maybe now is the time to fight it as much as you can, even for one split second, to refuse to take part in this descending spiral.
I don't know if its much help but try to remember that it's not all of you although it may seem that way for the moment.
 
I have gotten professional help for this situation (which has been ongoing since January) but it didnt really help at all because they told me nothing new. I KNOW what the logical thing to do is; I just lack the babkbone to do it. I'm talking about an 8-year relationship with the mother of my children totally going to hell over financial stress, drug addiction and infidelity. The financial stress led to the other 2, so she claims. There are things involved that I don't want to go into, but that is the crux of the matter. As long as she gives me hope, I cannot seem to let go. I try to put the children first, but my personal feelings are so strong its a constant battle. I just want my family back. Thats all.
 
Continue to defend your lies to yourself as if they are the truth and you are lost, Ominous. There is no 'hope' she gives you - that is a LIE.

The brain chemicals released when we are 'in love(lust)' are addictive - we are addicts in our own skin.

And, ultimately, we suffer until we learn not to; until we learn the lesson that keeps us in our suffering - though 'giving up' our suffering can be the most difficult thing of all.

Gurdjieff said:
We have already spoken enough about the meaning of being 'born.' This
relates to the beginning of a new growth of essence, the beginning of the
formation of individuality, the beginning of the appearance of one
indivisible I.

"But in order to be able to attain this or at least begin to attain it, a
man must die, that is, he must free himself from a thousand petty
attachments and identifications which hold him in the position in which he
is.

He is attached to everything in his life, attached to his imagination,
attached to his stupidity, attached even to his sufferings, possibly to his
sufferings more than to anything else.

He must free himself from this attachment. Attachment to things,
identification with things, keep alive a thousand useless I's in a man.
These I's must die in order that the big I may be born.

But how can they be made to die? They do not want to die.

It is at this point that the possibility of awakening comes to the rescue.

To awaken means to realize one's nothingness, that is to realize one's
complete and absolute mechanicalness and one's complete and absolute
helplessness.

And it is not sufficient to realize it philosophically in words. It is
necessary to realize it in clear, simple, and concrete facts, in one's own
facts.

When a man begins to know himself a little he will see in himself many
things that are bound to horrify him. So long as a man is not horrified at
himself he knows nothing about himself.

A man has seen in himself something that horrifies him. He decides to throw
it off, stop it, put an end to it. But however many efforts he makes, he
feels that he cannot do this, that everything remains as it was.

Here he will see his impotence, his helplessness, and his nothingness; or
again, when he begins to know himself a man sees that he has nothing that is
his own, that is, that all that he has regarded as his own, his views,
thoughts, convictions, tastes, habits, even faults and vices, all these are
not his own, but have been either formed through imitation or borrowed from
somewhere ready-made.

In feeling this a man may feel his nothingness. And in feeling his
nothingness a man should see himself as he really is, not for a second, not
for a moment, but constantly, never forgetting it.

"This continual consciousness of his nothingness and of his helplessness
will eventually give a man the courage to 'die,' that is, to die, not merely
mentally or in his consciousness, but to die in fact and to renounce
actually and forever those aspects of himself which are either unnecessary
from the point of view of his inner growth or which hinder it.

These aspects are first of all his 'false I,' and then all the fantastic
ideas about his 'individuality,' 'will,' 'consciousness,' 'capacity to do,'
his powers, initiative, determination, and so on.

"But in order to see a thing always, one must first of all see it even if
only for a second.

All new powers and capacities of realization come always in one and the same
way. At first they appear in the form of flashes at rare and short moments;
afterwards they appear more often and last longer until, finally, after very
long work they become permanent.

The same thing applies to awakening. It is impossible to awaken completely
all at once. One must first begin to awaken for short moments.

But one must die all at once and forever after having made a certain effort,
having surmounted a certain obstacle, having taken a certain decision from
which there is no going back.

This would be difficult, even impossible, for a man, were it not for the
slow and gradual awakening which precedes it.

"But there are a thousand things which prevent a man from awakening, which
keep him in the power of his dreams. In order to act consciously with the
intention of awakening, it is necessary to know the nature of the forces
which keep man in a state of sleep.
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Fascinating you could 'whip' one addiction and this addiction to your lies and to the woman of lies is too strong for you. You never had 'a family' - it was all lies - you have children - you have a liar for a wife - you never had this imaginary 'family' - yet you'll fight to the death for something that never existed and will never exist. That's your choice, of course, but don't expect to be told it's not a LIE.
 
It may be a lie now, but it WAS once a familly. She and I met in treatment, and were both on medication which helped us to stay sober, return to society, keep our jobs, get a house, start a family. We decided last year to get off of the meds. She got off hers first at the end of last year, and shortly thereafter things started downhill. More than one Dr has diagnosed her as bi-polar. Anart, you're right; I can't stop myself from believing her lies. When she attempts to quit, she begins to morph back into the loving partner/mother that I love so dearly; then she slips up and its horrible. She is going into a treatment program next week (if she still wants to), and this is where my hope lies. Hope Lies. I guess my machine must enjoy being hurt. I know I don't, but as I explained, I cannot or will not extricate myself from her. It'd be like lopping off a limb.
 
Ominous said:
I cannot or will not extricate myself from her. It'd be like lopping off a limb.
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Then you've made your decision, so your misery is yours and no one's fault but your own. Believe a lie and the chaos increases - it can be NO other way. I don't see why you are continuing to come to this forum and feed on the concern of those around you when you have no intention - on any level - of changing.

You love playing in the dirt too much to change - you love your suffering - that's fine, but this forum is not for such things.
 
I apologize for wasting your time. Contrary to what you think, I was not looking for sympathy but rather perhaps some kind of answer that would spark a strength I see now that I do not possess. I immensely enjoyed the time I have spent on this forum, and you are right again...I do not enjoy playing in the dirt, as you put it, but have obviously made up my mind to suffer because I am too weak to change. Maybe next lifetime. Best wishes to all.
 
Ominous said:
I apologize for wasting your time. Contrary to what you think, I was not looking for sympathy but rather perhaps some kind of answer that would spark a strength I see now that I do not possess. I immensely enjoyed the time I have spent on this forum, and you are right again...I do not enjoy playing in the dirt, as you put it, but have obviously made up my mind to suffer because I am too weak to change. Maybe next lifetime. Best wishes to all.
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I figured you would react this way because you are not thinking clearly - it is a 'reaction' because you are not hearing what you want to hear - your lies to yourself are not being supported. I never suggested that you should leave the forum, just that if you have no intention of changing or even seriously considering the information you've already been given, then there is no reason for you to continue to post about how miserable you are.

Argue for your limitations and you get to keep them - argue for your misery and it is yours for the rest of your life - keep doing what you've always done and you'll keep getting what you always 'got' - it's really very simple and nothing that isn't plainly clear to see.

If you had ever had a 'real family' you would not be going through this - if you were 'really in love' you would not be going through this - but you refuse to look at the reality of the situation because you LOVE your suffering SO much that nothing - NOTHING else - matters more - not even the well-being of the children involved who will be, without a doubt, damaged by your refusal to see the truth.

They learn, every day from you, that lies are more important than the truth - that what you want to be real is more important than what is real - that dysfunction is normal - guess what that sets them up for later in life? These are all things you have to understand on some level - you're not a dumb guy.

So - leave the forum if you choose to. You're already choosing lies over the truth in your life, so it would naturally follow...
 
anart and others, do you think anger towards yourself (seeing how you defend own lies/illusion and realizing "you have been duped by yourself") could be used as a catalyst for learning ? Or it's not such a good idea to express anger towards yourself due to imbalance ?
 
I think, Ominous, that the course you set for yourself is doomed to fail because it is predicated on what your wife will do, and as you yourself acknowledge, you have no idea what that will be.

You've put yourself in a state of utter helplessness, given your power to another, abdicated your responsibility to yourself and your children, as you wait for someone else to decide your future.

If you can get yourself to sit down and stay with yourself for awhile, you might actually feel the blood coursing thorough your veins, the air filling your lungs, the sensations that your eyes, skin, taste, smell, and touch are communicating to you about the outside world.

You would be able to feel the tension in your muscles and observe just where in the body those muscles are located.

This is your kingdom, the bounds of your world. Now think of each of your children, and imagine how they might experience their internal worlds if you abdicate all responsibility to yourself and to them. Unlike you, they have no say in their external reality.

This isn't just about you, Ominous. As Drygol writes:

drygol said:
Currently , (b)i am trying to help my friends in need. (/b)
Thing is that i got a lot of computers , because it is my passion ( or was ;P )
In my country , there are still a lot of people who cant afford one.
So whenever my friends needs one , i am just giving it to him with no regret.
Other help i try to give to other is for example simple help when repairing a car or (b)helping out when friends need it when building house.Anything , simply anything that you can offer , just do it.
After several tries you will see that they are very greatfull for your help , then you will see more and more things , and you finally will reach another step.(/b)
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Help the people who can be helped: first yourself, and then your children.
 
I'm talking about an 8-year relationship

you know Ominous I honestly think the reason that you CAN'T QUIT your relationship is because you are afraid that what people here are telling you turn out to be wrong.

you are afraid that the advice here given to you is wrong and that you will make a mistake, don't forget that there are people here who have been there and done that.

Something inside of you is crying for help, otherwise you wouldn't even ask for advice.

the time is now for you, the chance is here for you, to make a change , for you and your children, stop this madness Omnious, stop believing your lies.


It seems you need some more major shocks in real life to realize where you are.

but have obviously made up my mind to suffer because I am too weak to change. Maybe next lifetime. Best wishes to all.

It's so easy to turn around and run away.
It's so easy to deny.

you are not weak, you believe you are weak, it is an illusion, an illusion to keep you trapped within yourself.
you keep creating lies for yourself to kill the pain you feel inside.

don't run away, turn around and face your fears.

you are not weak , you believe you are weak, it is an illusion, an illusion to keep you trapped within yourself.

lies won't make the pain go away!

you are not weak , you believe you are weak, it is an illusion, an illusion to keep you trapped within yourself.



You are afraid ominous, you are afraid to make a choice, because your emotions blind you and your intellect(mind) confuses you.
you are afraid because you don't know what to expect.

This is your time, this is your chance to see yourself.

What if all your next lifetime's are the same as this one?

What if all your next lifetime's are the same as this one?

stop torturing yourself, wake up, and try to see where you are.





it's all up to you, you have been given very useful advice.
 
To me, love is how you feel about yourself when you are with that person.

Ominous, how do you feel about yourself when you are with her? By the sound of it...

Ominous said:
It'd be like lopping off a limb.
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Yeh, it is like that, even if the relationship was abusive (because habit creates a comfort zone), but eventually the relief comes! It's going to be hard if you decide to leave her, financially and emotionally, but not nearly as hard as a lifetime of lies, manipulation, games and....hoping, hoping, hoping. And I haven't even begun with your kids...
 
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