2020 US Election - Let The Games Begin!
- Thread starter Ruth
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psychegram
The Living Force
Here's my take on the China question.
Is China totalitarian? Yes.
Is America totalitarian? Also yes.
Is China involved in influence-peddling in American politics? Almost certainly. So are lots of countries. Buying corrupt politicians in order to gain advantage in the rotting heart of a collapsing empire is a time-honoured tradition. It is however extremely notable that both of the major sides seem to want to focus on either Russia or China, both of which are pikers in comparison to the one country neither side ever wants to mention - Israel. Funny how that works.
Back to the totalitarianism issue. From what I can see, the Chinese government is absolutely intolerant of opposition to the Chinese government. At the same time, Chinese citizens are free to say whatever else they like on any other topic. Compare that to the US, or to any other country in the so-called free world, where in general you can say whatever you want about the government ... but heaven help you if you should venture to say anything at all outside the accepted and narrow bounds of discourse governing sex, gender, race, vaccines, lockdowns, climate change, or any of an ever-expanding list of topics on which any thought outside the permissible is strictly verboten.
That's one important difference, and on balance I'd have to say the advantage goes to China in terms of being an overall freer society. Another key difference is that in China, things are top-down - the government is quite clear about what is not allowed, so everyone knows the rules. Western totalitarianism is informal: only infrequently does the government impose specific laws against e.g. "hate speech", and enforcement is instead carried out by a loose network of private corporations and social pressure. Say the wrong thing and face a letter-writing campaign from angry SJWs trying to get you fired. Making it worse, the rules in the West are not clearly defined: at any given time, something you said which might have been fine, or even mandatory, just last week, can suddenly become a thought crime, and you have no way of knowing how that line will shift. In China things seem to be rather more clear-cut. So again, advantage: China.
People love to rag on China's social credit system, and indeed it is highly dystopian. Then again, because it is formalized, the rules are at least clear. Further, at least part of the intent seems to be to compensate for the social decay induced by modernity, e.g. by encouraging people to call their mothers, clean up trash, or do volunteer work; it isn't all about inhibiting criticism of the communist party (although that assuredly is one of the motivations). As ham-handed and probably counter-productive as that may be, it is still way better than the informal social credit system we have in the West, which is purely focused on enforcing conformity to a deliberately bewildering and psychotic set of mutually contradictory ideological precepts that fly in the face of observable reality, and which moreover - precisely because it is informal - lacks any real sense of proportionality between the "offense" and the punishment. So yet a third time, advantage: China.
Finally, as Sottreader pointed out, the living standard of the average Chinese citizen (at least the Han supermajority) has continuously and dramatically improved over the past few decades. Say what you will about the Chinese government, but looking out for the people they rule over is at least somewhere on their priority list, if only to avoid one of the peasant uprisings that has drowned that country in blood several times throughout its very long history (a possibility they are certainly keenly aware of). By contrast, living standards in Western countries in general, and the US in particular, have plummeted over the last few decades, to the point where life expectancies are starting to drop for the first time in over a century. And thus, a fourth time, advantage: China.
Putting it all together, Joe's overall take - that the relentless focus of the Republican media on China's dastardly deeds is nothing but an effort to distract attention from the malign incompetence and relentless cupidity of Western elites - is spot on.
Is China totalitarian? Yes.
Is America totalitarian? Also yes.
Is China involved in influence-peddling in American politics? Almost certainly. So are lots of countries. Buying corrupt politicians in order to gain advantage in the rotting heart of a collapsing empire is a time-honoured tradition. It is however extremely notable that both of the major sides seem to want to focus on either Russia or China, both of which are pikers in comparison to the one country neither side ever wants to mention - Israel. Funny how that works.
Back to the totalitarianism issue. From what I can see, the Chinese government is absolutely intolerant of opposition to the Chinese government. At the same time, Chinese citizens are free to say whatever else they like on any other topic. Compare that to the US, or to any other country in the so-called free world, where in general you can say whatever you want about the government ... but heaven help you if you should venture to say anything at all outside the accepted and narrow bounds of discourse governing sex, gender, race, vaccines, lockdowns, climate change, or any of an ever-expanding list of topics on which any thought outside the permissible is strictly verboten.
That's one important difference, and on balance I'd have to say the advantage goes to China in terms of being an overall freer society. Another key difference is that in China, things are top-down - the government is quite clear about what is not allowed, so everyone knows the rules. Western totalitarianism is informal: only infrequently does the government impose specific laws against e.g. "hate speech", and enforcement is instead carried out by a loose network of private corporations and social pressure. Say the wrong thing and face a letter-writing campaign from angry SJWs trying to get you fired. Making it worse, the rules in the West are not clearly defined: at any given time, something you said which might have been fine, or even mandatory, just last week, can suddenly become a thought crime, and you have no way of knowing how that line will shift. In China things seem to be rather more clear-cut. So again, advantage: China.
People love to rag on China's social credit system, and indeed it is highly dystopian. Then again, because it is formalized, the rules are at least clear. Further, at least part of the intent seems to be to compensate for the social decay induced by modernity, e.g. by encouraging people to call their mothers, clean up trash, or do volunteer work; it isn't all about inhibiting criticism of the communist party (although that assuredly is one of the motivations). As ham-handed and probably counter-productive as that may be, it is still way better than the informal social credit system we have in the West, which is purely focused on enforcing conformity to a deliberately bewildering and psychotic set of mutually contradictory ideological precepts that fly in the face of observable reality, and which moreover - precisely because it is informal - lacks any real sense of proportionality between the "offense" and the punishment. So yet a third time, advantage: China.
Finally, as Sottreader pointed out, the living standard of the average Chinese citizen (at least the Han supermajority) has continuously and dramatically improved over the past few decades. Say what you will about the Chinese government, but looking out for the people they rule over is at least somewhere on their priority list, if only to avoid one of the peasant uprisings that has drowned that country in blood several times throughout its very long history (a possibility they are certainly keenly aware of). By contrast, living standards in Western countries in general, and the US in particular, have plummeted over the last few decades, to the point where life expectancies are starting to drop for the first time in over a century. And thus, a fourth time, advantage: China.
Putting it all together, Joe's overall take - that the relentless focus of the Republican media on China's dastardly deeds is nothing but an effort to distract attention from the malign incompetence and relentless cupidity of Western elites - is spot on.
It seems that the main issues with China's involvement with corrupt US officials doesn't have anything to do with the stolen election. It's clear who is behind that and it wasn't China. Yes, all globalist are enthralled by the feast no doubt.
Good point.
psychegram
The Living Force
Indeed, China's foreign policy has generally been to pursue mutual benefit via infrastructure projects and trade deals. A stark contrast to America's foreign policy, which has been to spread chaos and destruction everywhere they go.
One thing that is often brought up as a condemnation of China is the 'genocide' of the Uiger and Tibetan peoples, via a combination of replacement migration, inducements to interethnic marriage, and education seeking to weaken attachment to their cultures. I don't put 'genocide' in scare quotes because it isn't genocidal - it absolutely is, and is an evil act. However, as Chinese state media has occasionally pointed out, the hypocrisy from Western media outlets decrying these practices is simply breathtaking. Western countries almost without exception (e.g. Hungary, arguably not really Western though) pursue all of those policies, specifically with respect to their indigenous European or European-derived populations. The dissident right has been pointing this out for years, and much of it (e.g. critical race theory indoctrination in schools encouraging white children to see themselves as inherently evil, relentless propaganda depicting happy interracial marriages practically to the exclusion of any depiction of intraracial marriages) has become so obvious that ordinary, relatively politically unaware people have started remarking on it.
Once again the West tries to have it both ways: what China does to the Uigers and Tibetans is evil genocide; but precisely the same policies applied to the inhabitants of Western countries is, er, diversity and inclusion, or something. It doesn't work that way: either what China is doing is evil, and therefore what Western elites are doing is also evil ... or what China is doing isn't evil.
Yet another example of the doublethink we're expected to engage in here in Airstrip One.
I wonder how totalitarian China would have been if the Globalists wouldn't forment color revolutions all over the globe. In a way, China can only survive if it remains totalitarian.
Ocean
The Living Force
BREAKING: President Trump Declassifies Russia Collusion Documents — Coming as Soon as Friday
BREAKING: President Trump Declassifies Russia Collusion Documents — Coming as Soon as Friday -
On Tuesday The Gateway Pundit got word that President Trump was going to declassify all of the Russian hoax investigation
americanconservatives.today
On Tuesday The Gateway Pundit got word that President Trump was going to declassify all of the Russian hoax investigation documents.
We reported previously that Deep State operatives, including people inside the White House and ostensibly on “his” side, were urging the president to keep the information from the public.
In fact, President Trump promised several times that he would release everything on the Russian hoax before he left office.
On Thursday night Lou Dobbs reported that President Trump ordered the release of the Obamagate intelligence documents.
Lou Dobbs: President Trump is declassifying top-secret documents all related to Obamagate. That is the coordinated and years-long spying against a presidential candidate and ultimately the President of the United States and his administration, that of Donald J. Trump.
The documents will reportedly show the involvement in the United States and overseas to set up Donald Trump in the Russia lie.
The Trump administration must now make sure these documents are released to the public.
Heather
Dagobah Resident
Actually, what you say reminds me of that itty bitty blind spot left wing intellectuals had (for far too long) when it came to Marxism and Russia. You remember, that inconsequential itty bitty tiny little minor figure by the name of Joseph Stalin. I suppose it was Solzhenitsyn who provided some serious correction on that mistake.
I think the idea is not to get pulled into one idea or the other when both are going to be true to various degrees. Yes, there are those who want to blame China for everything, which is far too easy a formula, and is no doubt intended draw attention away from some very crucial matters. But we all understand that now, and don't have to fall for that. That's not the same as ignoring the very real concerns related to China.
SOTTREADER
The Living Force
Hi @psychegram do we know that what is said about the Tibetan and Uigar people is actually true? i.e. that China is genociding them?
I've seen contradicting reports.
The problem I find is reports are hugely tainted by bias. Usually the ones reporting genocide are anti China and the ones reporting the opposite are pro China.
It's hard to know the truth short of going to these places and seeing for oneself what's actually going on.
psychegram
The Living Force
Personally I have no idea, but that wasn't really the point. Rather, the point is that Western media accuse China of doing precisely those things that the Western elites are doing to Western populations, while calling what China is (allegedly) doing evil, and what is happening in the West, good.
BHelmet
The Living Force
Ehh...Falun Gong. I rest my case. A seemingly innocuous and apolitical movement that was demonized and suppressed beyond reason.
Consider the possibility that it’s all by design. That China is the model for the future for us all. All the multinationals that moved production to China knew exactly how it was going to play out. History repeats again. OSIT.
After the Great Depression, the US was the place to invest. The rest of he worlds economic capacity and population and infrastructure was decimated in WWII. We even funded and supported Hitler and the destruction. (Remember-it was a test run-by design) We became the big dog. Now? Time for the big dog to be put to sleep. US Dollar being destroyed and now “democracy” too. The big multinationals are already positioned to profit massively in China from the ongoing shift in the outward balance of power. The PTB are a duplicitous bunch.
SubnetUnMask
Jedi
In the US, the informal rules and silencing of speech through mob mentality plus controlled media infrastructure just feels like it's crushing my soul: People running around parroting obvious lies about the natural world (gender, equality, racial difference, muh "democracy", worship of military, police, etc etc.). People in the US falsely believe they live in free society, whereas people in China know they live in top-down controlled society with clear rules. Sounds like China is the "lesser of 2 evils" - still evil, though.
Evan
Jedi Council Member
Firstly, I’m not complaining, at all, but it seems to me that the conversation has again moved onto a tangent only somewhat related to Election 2020. I point this out not because it bugs me (it doesn’t), but because with so many topics being made a part of the stew which is this thread, it makes searching them laborious. For example, suppose I wanted to find the discussion comparing and contrasting Chinese and Western government. If I wasn’t following the election topic, I’d never know that a discussion had taken place, much less where to find it. That is an example of a topic that really deserves its own thread. That way points can be linked to here when making a post, while a larger discussion, which might attract more attention from people not following the election. Come to think of it, isn’t there a China 2030 (or something like that) thread already?
I’ve seen several examples of people making posts in other threads that are larger discussions about a topic, and then make a post here saying, “I made a post about this in the........thread.”
I apologize if this is noise, nor do I wish to put even more on the moderators’ plates. I should make a greater effort to hold all of the conversations that are ongoing but sometimes with a page or three before being picked up again. I just wanted to add yet another discussion to the table!
I’ve seen several examples of people making posts in other threads that are larger discussions about a topic, and then make a post here saying, “I made a post about this in the........thread.”
I apologize if this is noise, nor do I wish to put even more on the moderators’ plates. I should make a greater effort to hold all of the conversations that are ongoing but sometimes with a page or three before being picked up again. I just wanted to add yet another discussion to the table!
dredger
The Living Force
Having... let's say 1/2 followed the french Q channel (les deqodeurs), since August, i can state that they almost never insisted on China connection. In fact, when they started their 2h video, which rapidly were shown at a fixed date 2x /week, i was so impressed by the number of information(I would never have imagined that they could be published publicly.) that I proposed to a couple of my relatives to watch them, and even, restart from begining. as it was kinda a course
To come back on Q & China, at least on the french Q side, this was never a special hot topic, they mainly concentrate on the global elite corruption and more precisely in the US, they gave many information on pedophile networks, how they finance, all the relations between the elites and these network and some US agency (like CIA) used as the bad guys to operate the bad actions ... and presented in a way of ... giving a course, like teaching,explaingin then demonstrating. Except on some details, i was aware of all of this since a couple of years, but was stunned to see this be spread to 10k+ then up to 20k+ people during live streaming, without counting all the ones who watched the lives/videos days after.
Note that it may also be specific to the french - it just requires one good person at the right side to whether improve the level of information, or sort it in order to keep what is good to know and spread, dunno, but if there's something certain, there are a lot of french people (I estimate to more than 100.000, including BE and Quebec) who received a kind of intensive "wake-up" lessons regarding some truths on our world, in only a few months, and that is impressive, remarkable and they should be applaused and thanks for what they did. If you have any doubt, simply review all their videos since early/mid august (link to all vids, french only)
So, i dont care if Q as one more big STS psyop, what I just see, and you can verify it by yourself, is that it helped a lot of people to open their eyes, or it's just for the french ones, dunno, i of course did not follow the spanish/italian/german/please choose your country "Q" communities, but for the french one, Q created an impressive positive impact.
The only thing that could happen is that this new "community" to bee redirected on bad paths, as all know that the STS are always there to corrupt anything they see - it's not the case at this moment at least.