1883, 1923 and Yellowstone

The problem is that the first season, especially the first few episodes, are pretty dark and portray Yellowstone Ranch as somewhat evil, or at least very ambigious. In later episodes/seasons the writers kind of fell in love with the characters (as often happens with good writers - the thing develops a life of its own), and they become much more loveable and good, even though some of the ambiguity remains.

Well, that's good to know, because the first impression was unfortunately off-putting. I really liked the setting and the scenery, but made a decision not to continue because the characters and their actions (in these two episodes) didn't make it worth it (from physic hygiene perspective).

I don't mind brutality/violence if it is in a proper context (not gratuitous), and there are also good and/or redeeming messages. It's also important for me to be able to sympathize with some of the characters. I couldn't, hence couldn't watch it. But glad that it gets "good-er" eventually. :-)👍
 
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Well, that's good to know, because the first impression was unfortunately off-putting. I really liked the setting and the scenery, but made a decision not to continue because the characters and their actions (in these two episodes) didn't make it worth it (from physic hygiene perspective).

I don't mind brutality/violence if it is in a proper context (not gratuitous), and there are also good and/or redeeming messages. It's also important for me to be able to sympathize with some of the characters. I couldn't, hence couldn't watch it. But glad that it gets "good-er" eventually. :-)👍
You may want to start with 1883 and continue with 1923 this time. Both of them are pure gems, though there are some disturbing scenes especially in 1923 but they serve their role.
 
Similar to others, I initially stopped watching Yellowstone after the first couple of episodes, for similar reasons. A friend continued watching it though and convinced me to give it a chance.

Here is how I see it:

I also belong to those people who have a really hard time watching much of anything that is produced nowadays, which, coincidently enough, seems to be often what is popular. The reason for that is that in most cases, it seems to me, what is shown, is, in one way or the other, quite pathological, and not so infrequently, simply psychopathic in the way things are portrait and put on display and "normalized". It is often quite sick IMO. This way of portraying and story writing seems to be the norm now. Besides that, maybe aided by that general tendency I see in movies now, is the factor that most of it comes across as very shallow, simple-minded and quite inhuman to me, also in terms of language. I think that also applies to violence in general, or more specifically, the graphic nature of how it is often portrait nowadays. Similar to others I also find watching something that has not at least a bit of goodness/sanity/decency and/or values and/or deeper thoughts and/or heroes in it rather repelling.

For that and other reasons I am usually appalled and repelled by most of what people like to watch nowadays. I'm also one of those people who favor a deep and thought-provoking movie over any kind of shallow action movie, any time, for example. What others seem to find boring, like thoughtful and deep stories and/or dialogues without much "action", I don't find boring at all. Often, the exact opposite in fact! I'm a firm believer in the idea that a good movie/story should be able to create a meaningful/thoughtful and "action rich" story within your mind, first and foremost. Just like a good book does. Which means that I don't need to see much "action", "brutality" or whatever in a movie in order to like it. In fact, most of the movies and series I would consider good and that I like, don't display any of that at all. On a side note: I find action scenes, most especially in modern movies (like endless car chases, spaceships fighting, battles scenes or what have you) most of the time utterly boring and meaningless.

Downton Abbey is a good example of a modern Series that I like. It is one of the good examples nowadays IMO that doesn't need any of that nonsense that is now popular. Good movies/series still exist! There are others modern ones too, but I don't remember the titles right now. I don't think you need to be graphic and/or pornographic about anything, to make a good movie/series. In fact, I'm appalled by seeing that. Usually when stuff like that is displayed I'm choosing to look away. Having said that, in some ways I think you can watch stuff like that IF YOU are aware of what you are dealing with (in some respects in regard to sick/graphic and/or pathological content) and set up boundaries. See the Yellowstone example below.

There are a few movies and Series nowadays I can more or less tolerate and even like in some ways, even though, in one way or the other, they seem carry along some of the negatives I mentioned above. I would consider 1883, 1923 and Yellowstone to be in that category.

So, after my friend convinced me to give Yellowstone a chance, we decided to first watch 1883 for a better understanding of the whole concept. Apart from the brutally graphic scenes, which I faithfully refused to look at, I found myself quite moved by the story in 1883 and found it deep and engaging. I also found all the actors in 1883 to be a superb cast for the story. Great acting and great actors that fit their role IMO.

In contrast to that I find 1923 to be a profoundly miscast series: Almost all the main actors don't fit their roles IMO. The only two actors I find more or less to be convincing and a fitting cast in 1923 are Brandon Sklenar (as Spencer Dutton) and Julia Schlaepfer (as Alexandra). Apart from that (and again, the brutally graphic scenes) the story line in 1923 is good IMO. So, over all, IMO 1883 is MUCH better.

Yellowstone:

Apart from the brutally graphic scenes, and the often quite pathologically normalizing stories/scenes, I think it is a quite interesting and well written series. At some point I had to consciously abandon the silly notion/hope to root for and/or find a character I can really sympathize with or agree with, and just accept that, in one degree or the other, people there are just quite twisted people. Which in fact might be a quite accurate depiction of reality! So, that is sort of one of the boundaries I kept up while watching Yellowstone. So from my perspective, the people in Yellowstone are definitively far away from any kind of role model, knights, or anything like that. In a twisted kind of sick mafioso way, Yellowstone makes sense, and viewed from that perspective, you can understand and even somewhat "sympathize" with the story and people there. In terms of acting I also think that Yellowstone has a superb and fitting cast for the story.
 
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You may want to start with 1883 and continue with 1923 this time. Both of them are pure gems, though there are some disturbing scenes especially in 1923 but they serve their role.
Yeah, 1883 especially. Their journey through the center of the US, northwestwards from Texas to Montana, strikes me as being 'realistic', based on reading this book by S.C. Gwynne about that region and time period:

Empire of the Summer Moon: Quanah Parker and the Rise and Fall of the Comanches, the Most Powerful Indian Tribe in American History


Many settlers were brutal, and so were many tribes, especially the Comanche.
 
Knight?! In the show, doesn't the head of the family brand like cattle the people he "saves" and who work for him? Or am I taking it out of context?
In Yellowstone John Dutton is branded himself and we are not told how this tradition started. It is a mark of allegiance, a mark of protector of the land. Later in the show one of the ranchers, a woman, asks to brand her too after Rip with others find and hang attackers who almost killed her earlier. Maybe calling them knights is a stretching, they still exhibit a lot of similarities to knights.
 
In Yellowstone John Dutton is branded himself and we are not told how this tradition started.

He is? I’m not aware of that unless that detail was mentioned in the latest season (that I haven’t watched)?:


Maybe calling them knights is a stretching, they still exhibit a lot of similarities to knights.

IMO, by the life of me, I couldn‘t square any of the characters in Yellowstone with any kind of knight concept, even on a lower „level“ of what I would consider knightly behavior/actions. When you get to understand where some of the characters are coming from, like John Dutton, I can bring myself to sympathize or even admire some of his convictions and qualities (with boundaries in place) but any of that is still far removed from a knight concept which involves honorable and decent actions for me. There are certain lines that (what I would consider a knight) would never cross, which a person like John Dutton and others in the series repeatedly cross.
 
He is? I’m not aware of that unless that detail was mentioned in the latest season (that I haven’t watched)?:
You're right. I was sure he was and found a scene in S04E02, where he is in a natural pool with his son. Kayce has a brand, but John wears only scars which I might took for a brand back then. I'm sorry for spreading disinformation.

IMO, by the life of me, I couldn‘t square any of the characters in Yellowstone with any kind of knight concept, even on a lower „level“ of what I would consider knightly behavior/actions. When you get to understand where some of the characters are coming from, like John Dutton, I can bring myself to sympathize or even admire some of his convictions and qualities (with boundaries in place) but any of that is still far removed from a knight concept which involves honorable and decent actions for me. There are certain lines that (what I would consider a knight) would never cross, which a person like John Dutton and others in the series repeatedly cross.
Speaking of John, can you give an example of his indecent actions, because my memory seems to play tricks on me [no sarcasm here]?
 
Well, I loved Yellowstone and I enjoyed the 6 episodes of 1883 that I watched as they gave more context to the land war theme that runs through Yellowstone. Oftentimes I questioned what all the fuss was about, is land really worth destroying your family and health over!? But then seeing the journey his ancestors took to get the land in 1883 and the way of life that the Duttons are fighting for in Yellowstone, well, John Dutton's perspective made more sense to me.

It has some gems like an anti-woke, anti-vegan perspective, pushback against multinational corporations, and how to live in harmony with natural cycles and rear animals, but it can be overly violent at times. Compared to other shows I wouldn't say it was that sexual though.

The family dynamics can be painful and cringeworthy to watch but it's a great depiction (albeit sometimes over the top) of people with character disturbances, narcissistic family dynamics, and how warped people can become. In a lot of cases, it serves as an example of what not to do!

Maybe some of us like these shows because they teach us how to be a knight, and I understand that that role is not for everyone.
One could say the male characters play the role of knight in shining armor for their families, but if a knight is characterized by "honorable and decent actions" as Cosmos wrote, then I'm not sure if the word knight fits exactly. Maybe monster (as described by Jordan Peterson) would fit better. The men in Yellowstone display this raw protectiveness accompanied by violent behavior that is unleashed when their loved ones or their land is threatened, but for the most part, it's kept under wraps. Maybe that's what it's tapping into for the guys? It's pushback against this idea of a weak and placid man? I'm not sure, maybe the guys will have a better idea🤠
I can understand how some people might have a problem with that though as their actions are often morally objectionable.

This last season (season 5) focuses more on the beauty of ranching and the land, and the love shared between families so it does evolve over time.
 
This last season (season 5) focuses more on the beauty of ranching and the land, and the love shared between families so it does evolve over time.
Yeah this season is quite muted in comparison to the earlier seasons with regards to violence. There's so many contemplative scenes where not much is happening plot-wise, it's just the show immersing you in ranch life and the way it brings people together. A great example of this would the the "Spring Gathering" that aired this season in episode 5, "Watch'em Ride Away". Just beautiful symmetry of cinematography and music. I can understand being turned off by the beginning of the show, but you're paid off in a big way for sticking with it in the later seasons. It really has matured.
 
You may want to start with 1883
Ok, I did it. :whistle: And it honestly swept me away... I also really liked the main female character at the end.
And then I was brave and started Yellowstone again... @Kari Baba told me I just have to get through the first three episodes and then it will be really good :lol:
I don't think it took that long at all. I kind of had a different approach than the first time. And by now I really like it because you get to know the characters better and better and over time you can understand their ways of doing things. I just wonder in some scenes if there are still such "clarifications of matters" in reality nowadays. I've never been to America, but it doesn't seem impossible to me.
Anyway, I'll keep watching it and I'm sure I know now how country songs are made.... :cool2:
 
Speaking of John, can you give an example of his indecent actions, because my memory seems to play tricks on me [no sarcasm here]?

It can be quickly summarized by what Jenn said:

I can understand how some people might have a problem with that though as their actions are often morally objectionable.

A couple of examples:

Spoilers:


- The branding of his “murder gang” is a case in point, and more specially, the branding of his own son, which, by the looks of it, John did (or allowed to happen) to his son when he was a teenager or even a child. You could argue that John in later years seems to have regretted that, at least partially.

- Another example is the coroner/doctor that was apparently ordered to be killed by John, seemingly for the sole reason/purpose of covering up what his son did (murder a guy). In other words, the coroner/doctor seemingly did his job correct by stating the true conclusion of the autopsy and John decided he must die because he was stating the truth and endangering his son/ranch. In still other words: John killed an innocent coroner and somewhat "justified" that with the "reason" that he doesn't negotiate with drug addicts (which the coroner was).

- Another example is the way John, obviously, as the head and chief of the family/ranch, simply turned a "blind eye" on the methods his daughter is using in his name and with his orders to "safe/protect Yellowstone and/or the family and/or him". It is pretty obvious that John knew quite consciously and thoroughly what kind of methods his daughter is using. So, John willfully encouraged her morally reprehensible methods which makes him at least as complicit in those acts as his daughter in my book. One example of such acts is the way his daughter basically behaved like an economic shark, willfully and purposefully destroying companies in the most crude and ugly ways possible. Which actually means that she and John are responsible, at the very least, of unjustly putting many innocent people out of work in those companies, and more seriously, in some if not many cases, putting those people in serious trouble of livelihood. Innocent people at least in the hundreds, if not thousands, by the looks of it. It could be argued that John later rebuffed his daughter for the methods she is using and proclaimed that he, paraphrasing "never intended" her to behave in such ways. Which, frankly speaking, is a flimsy excuse for me that puts the blame mostly on her. Sorry, but John is clearly at least as complicit in how his daughter handled things, as she is herself IMO.

- Another example is again the branding thing and the way people got branded: them not knowing, that by doing so, they commit to being part of a goon squat and even maybe becoming murderers while also committing to be murdered themselves in cold blood if they should decide to leave John's ranch, even if they have done nothing wrong. It could be argued: but they obviously can't tell them that crucial detail before the branding, and so on. I don't see much point in excusing that though.

- Another example in regard to the branded murder gang is the way John apparently set it up in a way to get ex-convicts and/or seriously traumatized people into the gang, such as Rip as a kid or later. In other words: Vulnerable people and/or people in struggle/need. A good example of that is the guy that was picked up right after his prison time, to become a member of the branded gang. The guy didn't really know what he was signing in to and bravely struggled for a while against the morally objectionable things he was supposed to be doing in this gang. So, a fairly decent guy, who served his time in prison for something he did wrong, found himself being pushed into doing morally reprehensible things, even more reprehensible than what he was convicted of.

There are many more examples IMO.
 
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In contrast to that I find 1923 to be a profoundly miscast series: Almost all the main actors don't fit their roles IMO. The only two actors I find more or less to be convincing and a fitting cast in 1923 are Brandon Sklenar (as Spencer Dutton) and Julia Schlaepfer (as Alexandra). Apart from that (and again, the brutally graphic scenes) the story line in 1923 is good IMO. So, over all, IMO 1883 is MUCH better.

Forgot to add this in regards to 1923:

Apart from that (and again, the brutally graphic and sick scenes) the story line in 1923 is good IMO.
 
I enjoed the Yellowstone. Partly because of images of a life different then overcrowded city and the images of the nature, mountains endless fields. I found the story amusing but what worrys me is that I found some satisfaction in taking justice in its own hands. Maybe Im frustrated with daily dealing with birocracy and corruption living in country where courts and civil institutions do not work in favour of the common citizens..
 
I watched the whole series. Yes, there is a heavy dose of visual cruel murder in the beginning but I suspect that may have been more common then we imagine. After all, there was no law out there besides the power of the gun. Just the current conflict in Ukraine shows us that it takes very little to push people to extreme behavior.

The optics of 1883 is super. I love the outdoors and mountains so for me watching was a pleasure. The characters were believable in my opinion though I suspect a certain tweaking was done to align with current PC.

I'm starting on Yellowstone next.
 
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