What globe? Flat Earth and Flat-Earthers

[luke wilson]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

Sooooooo.... it was a dumb question. Lol! What subject in school would this have been covered in.. I suppose mechanics... Someone was clearly to busy playing knots and crosses and not listening to the teacher... :D

 

[Laura]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-technology/rockets.html

Why can't an airplane just fly into space? Why do we need rockets?

 

[Laura]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

Sooooooo.... it was a dumb question. Lol! What subject in school would this have been covered in.. I suppose mechanics... Someone was clearly to busy playing knots and crosses and not listening to the teacher... :D

That would have been covered in basic physics.

 

[lucasraffablog]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

Traveling by plane solves the problem.

1) A thousands meters, one can see the curvature of the Earth.
2) In a plane, you have two diametrically opposed points, which (say Los Angeles and Tokyo) 25-30-40 should take hours to arrive, but it takes only 11 hours because it is by the Pacific. The same applies in the transpolar flight of Aerolineas Argentinas between Buenos Aires and Sydney, thats 14 hours. A flight Buenos Aires-Cape Town-Sydney at least 20-24 hours.

I think there is much more to discuss.

Could you please make your points more clearly? I have NO freaking clue what you are intending to say here.

1) You can see with your eyes that the Earth is spheroid, but forget that point, go to
2) If you have a flat world, we see it as a map in 2 dimensions, which we can set lines between 2 points. For example, Google Earth you can score 2 points together and the software will indicate the distance between them. Distances make travel delays (there are other variables, but we'll skip them for now). This is how Buenos Aires-Rome is about 11,000 km., About 14 flight hours.
On a spherical globe, Im allow to know which route is shorter and which is longer. For example, I can consider that LAX-NY is shorter travelling over USA than flying over the Pacific.
Now, assuming that the Earth is flat, as the map below, we can not explain how is the same distance between certain points between northern and southern (NY-London, Montevideo-Southafrica), and there are flights that suit them over Antarctica. Last example: a journey between Buenos Aires and Sydney take more than three days in a flat world.

one of the theorical flat earths:

Travellling over Pacific, North and South poles:

 

[Laura]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

1) You can see with your eyes that the Earth is spheroid, but forget that point, go to
2) If you have a flat world, we see it as a map in 2 dimensions, which we can set lines between 2 points. For example, Google Earth you can score 2 points together and the software will indicate the distance between them. Distances make travel delays (there are other variables, but we'll skip them for now). This is how Buenos Aires-Rome is about 11,000 km., About 14 flight hours.
On a spherical globe, Im allow to know which route is shorter and which is longer. For example, I can consider that LAX-NY is shorter travelling over USA than flying over the Pacific.
Now, assuming that the Earth is flat, as the map below, we can not explain how is the same distance between certain points between northern and southern (NY-London, Montevideo-Southafrica), and there are flights that suit them over Antarctica. Last example: a journey between Buenos Aires and Sydney take more than three days in a flat world.

Good point.

Meanwhile, here is a simple video that explains some of the earth's motions. I learned this in 8th grade physics.

https://youtu.be/9n04SEzuvXo

 

[Laura]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?


Here is a nice cockpit video from a commercial airliner. Even at the beginning, he is not flying at cruising height, yet you can get the impression of how small everything on the ground is from that altitude. Just keep watching: see the curvature of the earth, see the change in size of things with changes in altitude giving better feeling for the scale of things.

https://youtu.be/wfxTpEkmSlI

 

[cubbex]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

When I saw the question I agreed with laura that a schizo would believe this, I mean the atmosphere layers would be totally spheric and the earth a non perfect chunk of materials, but it is still so big for us to really notice when the curvature is going on.

xD what I find interesting is that a discussion thinking it might be true was going on until madame Laura came to save the day in page 3 I guess

 

[Pierre]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

What is ironic is that flat-earthers use interesting valid concept in an innapropriate context. So let's try to not throw the baby with the bathwater and peruse one of those concepts in a relevant context. One case in point is atmospheric refraction.

In simple terms it is the reason why light doesn't necessarrily travel along a straight line. It is deviated because of density differences between air masses. Light bends towards higher density.

That's why the pencil below doesn't look straight:

Air and water have very different density, thus refract (deviate) light differently:

One not so well known effect of atmospheric refraction is the deformation of the shape of the Sun when it reaches the horizon. Indeed when the sun is high up in the sky it looks circular but when it reaches the horizon it can become oval (height being less than 85% of width).

When we observe a Sunset, the Sun rays go through a long stretch of atmosphere which increases the refraction

The same applies to the Moon when it's close to the horizon:

Not only the Sun looks oval but it is also still visible when it is below the line of horizon (0.3 degrees below the horizon to be exact or 2 minutes of extra Sun!)

For the same reason repeated observations of distant features located below the line of the horizon have been made. Observations of Corsica from Genoa were mentioned and studied centuries ago.

In a similar vein some of the Pyrenees mountains (about 10000 feet - South West France) can sometimes be seen from Marseille (South East France) which is located almost 300 km away.

Problem is that at a distance of 300 km (about 200 miles) a 10000 feet mountain is 0.05 degrees below the line of horizon (see red line in the diagram below):

Refraction bending light towards higher densities, it makes the light rays slightly curved and enables us to see features that would be invisible if light was travelling along perfectly straight line.

So not only the Earth is not flat but light doesn't even travel in a straight line! Obviously Mother Nature likes balls and curves ;)

Here is a photographic evidence shot from Marseille in 2005 showing the Canigou (one of the Pyrenees' peaks):

 

[Laura]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?


I've given this whole problem some thought and it occurs to me that this is a great opportunity to educate folks. So, let's bring on the claims of the flat earthers and do some work.

That means that those of you who have watched the videos need to bring up the questions that are relevant.

 

[Laura]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

Apparently this guy is aware of at least some of the claims of the flat earthers and addresses them in this very entertaining 10 minute video:

https://youtu.be/VNqNnUJVcVs

 

[Keyhole]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

Here are two that I have used in conversation.

The Horizon always looks flat, you can see no curvature with your eyes. If you were on Mount Everest, you would see a curvature

In comparison to the size of the earth, using a different scale, a human being is roughly the size of one bacteria on top of a 40 meter boulder. A human being stood on top of mount everest is equivalent to the bacteria being at an elevation of about 1cm on a 200 sqft spherical boulder.

If you are on the point of tangent, you can only percieve a flat plane surface. This is because your point of reference is simply too limited. Theoretically, the only way you would be able to percieve a curve is if you were thousands of miles away.

But even then, you would still be unable to see the curvature because the eyes are only two inches apart, and this would not allow for spacial depth.

Not very scientific explanation, sure someone else can do better!

NASA is a scam, therefore we can't trust anything they say about the earth

Yes, NASA lies about things. But attempting to disprove the curvature of the earth by using this as "proof" is illogical and bears no relation to the arguement.

 

[RedFox]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

ADDED: I thought about this a bit more and I realize that the education system is designed to NOT educate people, but to make them drones. But I do think that if a person is reasonably aware of the world around them questions would NATURALLY come to their minds in all kinds of situations. In fact, I actually can remember asking some of these kinds of questions when I was just a kid. Things like "why don't people in Australia fall off the earth" and "why don't planes just fly away into space and never come back?" Fortunately, I was raised by an engineer and I was a great reader and was never shy about asking questions in school. Plus, the education system then still did a reasonable job.

Yeah, I remember asking those questions as a kid and getting intelligent answers. My parents encouraged me to never stop asking questions too.

Top 10 Ways to Know the Earth is Not Flat
http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/

fwiw I can add another one to the list (expanding point 9 - gravity).

Have you ever played with sand on the beach? Or dug a hole in the earth? What happens when you pile it up and try to make a tall tower?
It spreads out relative to the center of gravity (I learned a lot about physics from sand and dirt).
The higher the tower, the more compression, the more the base wants to spread out.

Brick building for example can only be built to a certain height before the bottom bricks have to much compression on them, and begin to break appart (spread out).

Even in an engineered disc, when you get over a certain mass it's going to want to clump around the center forming a sphere around the center of gravity rather than stay as a disc.

When you have compression, things want to spread out and/or heat up.

https://youtu.be/53QjIamBW3w

A specific example in nature would be that of planet formation and accretion.

https://youtu.be/3x8z6KGEqyw

https://youtu.be/bLLWkx_MRfk

 

[Laura]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?


For the folks who didn't have much science education, here are a few youtube channels with really great, entertaining, science videos. Some of the stuff is really crazy and obscure, but it sure is educational!

https://www.youtube.com/user/minutephysics

https://www.youtube.com/user/destinws2

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6nSFpj9HTCZ5t-N3Rm3-HA

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vsauce2

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vsauce3

If a person just watched one ten minute science video every day, it would add up to a serious education in a few months time!

 

[Carl]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

The thinking behind flat earth is interesting and harkens back to the old monotheistic 'centre of the universe' idea. As Laura and others have repeatedly explained, it is much easier for some people to believe in a smaller, more predictable world where everything is controlled (even if it's controlled by evil powers), than a vast open universe that stretches on and up into vastness and complexity beyond words.

In fact I think it is really that simple. A child mind wants a simple, enclosed, predictable system to grow up in. The adult mind can understand uncertainty, non-linearity and an infinite progression. Due to the traumatizing nature of this world, many people never grow out of child mind. Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Laura]

Re: Is the Earth an enclosed technologically created world, and NOT a globe?

The thinking behind flat earth is interesting and harkens back to the old monotheistic 'centre of the universe' idea. As Laura and others have repeatedly explained, it is much easier for some people to believe in a smaller, more predictable world where everything is controlled (even if it's controlled by evil powers), than a vast open universe that stretches on and up into vastness and complexity beyond words.

In fact I think it is really that simple. A child mind wants a simple, enclosed, predictable system to grow up in. The adult mind can understand uncertainty, non-linearity and an infinite progression. Due to the traumatizing nature of this world, many people never grow out of child mind. Stockholm syndrome.

Very well said. And that's what Lobaczewski meant by:

Pathological acceptance is manifested by individuals with diversiform deviations, whether inherited or acquired, as well as by many people bearing personality malformations or who have been injured by social injustice. That explains why this scope is wider than the circle drawn by direct action of pathological factors.