Vision of Punishment

[mamadrama]

Hey Mama found the following website in case your interested as well:

_http://www.hypnosis.edu/

And, duh, we could ask for Laura's input on this; she is hypnotist after all. In terms of others' insights, I agree the most important work is in the here and now. I have found, however, that sometimes the here and now, when thoroughly examined and after considerable work, doesn't seem to hold enough of an explanation to resolve an issue. Then I think one may want to explore other alternatives. I have never done full blown PLR but have had some past life information given to me by others here and there. Some information has seemed more helpful than other information but it has always been interesting to ponder and even helpful at times in allowing me a freedom to sort of drop some programs and thought patterns and explore other possibililties.

 

[mamadrama]

I also noticed that what I considered a 'connection' changed considerably as I became more aware of my own machine and of others. Basically, one's impressions are wholly reliant on one's awareness - so - subjectivity necessarily abounds.

At least, that is my current understanding.

Yes, and my earlier lack of this understanding cost me greatly and I became easy prey for my narcissistic ex. SIGH. It seems some of us just have to learn our lessons the hard way :)

 

[Andrew]

Of course. If we had conscious access at all times to our subconscious, then we would have no need for lessons at all - BUT - that is not how this 'place' in which we reside seems to work- and we are here, because this is where we FIT. We cannot learn the lessons we NEED to learn if we have the 'teacher's edition' in our hand and can easily look up answers. It appears that the soul's development in this environment is rather dependent on understanding and learning when it is the most difficult thing to do - not on just 'having all the answers when one needs them'.

Tell me what you think about this. Accessing the sub-conscious, or really just deeper parts of the Human Psyche requires a lot of work and self-discipline in order to attain results. It teaches patience, energy manipulation and control, visualization, meditation etc. I could see how if we just had access whenever we want to, to deeper levels of Consciousness we wouldn't really be learning, however there's a great deal of work and 'lessons' to be learned prior to attaining any results. Look at it from the perspective of the High-School student who is currently taking not only his required high-school courses but college courses as well. Here we are experiencing 3rd density so whats really stopping us if we decide to not only take on 3rd density lessons but prepare for higher density levels or even just other dimensions in general?

I can't really see how such work would be invaluable as everything apart of reality seems to have significance regardless. We are grounded here in 3rd density yes, but if we work toward moving past our roots and extending our minds out in the multidimensional realms of creation would that not be beneficial? I understand that not everyone decides to venture this route, but could it not be said for those individuals who are extending themselves, it is somehow apart of their own unique lessons?

Just my thoughts

 

[Andrew]

Andrew, your topic and this discussion reminded me of a couple of things. What you've seen can be an easy or self-fulfilling exercise - I've done it myself and so have many others. It might be something within us or outside of us - a dissatisfaction with the way things are, and the more we learn about how things *actually* are the more dissatisfied we can become. I'm speaking more about the world and what we find there ( here ) but also about ourselves.

I think perhaps if one looks at it from the perspective of it being a means of escape then it could perhaps be detrimental. But if one can accept ones chosen reality, and use such methods responsibly and as another tool as a means of learning perhaps it could and would be beneficial?

Anyway here is what I wanted to post, an excerpt of the Ra material. The questioning was around the subject of healing or balancing overall, both between and within lifetimes. Those sessions brought out the idea that time/space or the metaphysical existence is an analogue of space/time, the world we know. It's "there" in time/space that each sees and considers what is out of balance and chooses what could be pursued in a subsequent life. For me one line described 3D life very well.

Questioner: Is the process in positive time/space identical with the process in negative time/space for this healing?

Ra: I am Ra. The process in space/time of the forgiveness and acceptance is much like that in time/space in that the qualities of the process are analogous. However, while in space/time it is not possible to determine the course of events beyond the incarnation but only to correct present imbalances. In time/space, upon the other hand, it is not possible to correct any unbalanced actions but rather to perceive the imbalances and thusly forgive the self for that which is.
The decisions then are made to set up the possibility/probabilities of correcting these imbalances in what you call future space/time experiences. The advantage of time/space is that of the fluidity of the grand overview. The advantage of space/time is that, working in darkness with a tiny candle, one may correct imbalances.

Alright this is what I got from Ra, its may not accurate because I have a hard time with Ra but here goes. Basically whats being said is that it's not possible from our current local in space/time or time/space to determine future incarnations but only to correct whatever imbalances one may perceive in their current location in order to fully balance future ones?

If that's the case that's interesting that that's being said because if I can recall correctly, I believe the C's said that all incarnations are actually simultaneous which in a way would negate future or past incarnation because they are all existing right now, side-by side. However it would make sense to balance the presently perceived incarnation because the present would maybe somehow project "backward" and "forward" in time/space balancing both past and future with present? Not sure, its a concept in progress.

 

[Andrew]

In other words, I am questioning the usefulness of knowing what happened in another life to cause the issues we're going through today. It may be useful/helpful, but knowing it won't make the issues disappear. So we'd still have to look at the real root of those issues in our mind - not root in terms of what happened that made the issues appear (this is more like the cause / blame for the issue, not the root), but root in terms of what happens inside of our mind/being that creates this issue and allows it to exist and occur. In other words, identify the program and how it works. My thought is, even if you have no idea what happened in a past life (how that program got put in), if you can just trace your programs into your own mind, and address your machine as it is now by observation of what you do and the effects of it on you and others in your environment, you then have the power to change it, and not just superficially, but from the very root of your being.

Perhaps one's programming is so far along that certain perceived imbalances are in a way invisible to the perceiver? In this sense what can be done if one is in a way blind to the issue, due to beliefs, or repression, or efficient programming? I could see past life regression being useful in this sense in uncovering that which has been thoroughly covered and aiding oneself in bringing certain issues to light and perhaps even make them a little easier to accept. It may not solve the issue entirely but like I said bring it to light, or even to ones attention to get a better handle to do the necessary work on that imbalance.

 

[anart]

It teaches patience, energy manipulation and control, visualization, meditation etc. [...] I understand that not everyone decides to venture this route, but could it not be said for those individuals who are extending themselves, it is somehow apart of their own unique lessons?

Have you read the Wave and the Adventure Series? (if not, I suggest doing so, and if you have, I suggest re-reading them) Are you familiar with the work of G.I. Gurdjieff? It appears that you may not understand the difference between dreaming and being awake.

 

[Andrew]

Your dream has told you what you need to know, which is that you have a self-punishment Program that needs to be identified, observed, and corrected. Natural curiosity would cause anyone to want to know the specifics of the past-life experience that may have led to the adoption of the Program in this lifetime.

I agree with you that it needs to be identified, observed, and corrected but what if like I wrote to ScioAgapeOmnis it's some how blocked, or repressed so far that it may in fact be entirely invisible to the perceiver? What does one do in such a case?

 

[Andrew]

Have you read the Wave and the Adventure Series? (if not, I suggest doing so, and if you have, I suggest re-reading them) Are you familiar with the work of G.I. Gurdjieff? It appears that you may not understand the difference between dreaming and being awake.

Haven't read the Adventure Series. Read some Gurdjieff. Is there anything specific you are alluding to that should be looked into? And what specific books of Gurdjieff? What is your understanding of dreaming and wakefulness? In full lucidity reality seems to be just as real if not realer than this realm. What seems to be the difference in this case is a dream realm is a self generated realm, where as wakefulness is a mass-shared generated realm. But please share your understanding I'm quite curious.

 

[anart]

Hi Andrew,

All the information you need to understand all of this, at least intellectually, is either written in whole or referenced on this forum and on the cass.org pages - there is a LOT of information. It would take me days to answer your questions, and you still would not grasp anywhere near the truth of the matter because you would not have taken the time to research and read it yourself.

This forum is very welcoming to new comers - that's one of the reasons we are here - to spread information and provide a place where a lot can be learned if people PUT IN THE EFFORT to learn it. Nothing is handed to anyone on a platter and no one is led by the hand - because such things tend to diminish the learning, and we must - each of us - learn this for ourselves, not just believe what we hear.

So, please take the time and make the effort to get up to speed -t he material is all there - to your answer of which Gurdjieff book, all of them - there are no short cuts, no matter how much you enjoy your lucid dreaming/obes/meditations - there are no short cuts, so, if you are sincere, time to get to some serious reading. There is a suggested reading list here - http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=4718 - if you're truly interested.

 

[anart]

I agree with you that it needs to be identified, observed, and corrected but what if like I wrote to ScioAgapeOmnis it's some how blocked, or repressed so far that it may in fact be entirely invisible to the perceiver? What does one do in such a case?

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=4718

Almost all programs are hidden - that's just the nature of the beast - often we can only get to the bottom of them by first noticing their tracks - their effects - the way you can't see the wind, but you can see the leaves fly - so you look at the effects and work from there - BUT it is almost impossible to do this alone, one needs a network to provide a mirror with which one can see oneself clearly. Recapitulation is important as well - again, understanding the basic tenets of Gurdjieff's work might serve you well.

 

[PepperFritz]

I agree with you that it needs to be identified, observed, and corrected but what if like I wrote to ScioAgapeOmnis it's some how blocked, or repressed so far that it may in fact be entirely invisible to the perceiver? What does one do in such a case?

You are not such a case, and I don't know that ANYONE would be such case. Let me elaborate on what I meant by "it needs to be identified, observed, and corrected":

IDENTIFIED: You are now aware that you have a Self-Punishment Program, so it has been identified. Nothing "blocked" there.

OBSERVED: This you can begin doing it at any time. As per Gurdjieff's Fourth Way teaching, you must start practicing Objective Self-Observation, in order to become more aware and familiar with how and when you run the identified Program in your life. The premise is that we are all essentially mechanical and program-driven, and that we are not able to develop our "Real I" and become truly "awake" until we get to know our "Machine".

CORRECTED: The process of Objective Self-Observation is usually a lengthy one, but Gurdjieff teaches that with discipline, patience, and daily practice we can begin to recognize the workings of our Programs and gradually eliminate them as unnecessary. It is self-defeating to be in a hurry to change or eliminate a program, because you cannot do so until you are able to SEE it.


Andrew, you seem very attached to and identified with the idea that you need to know a past-life origin of your program before you can successfully undertake the Work and begin to understand your own behaviour. You are also attached to the idea that whatever you need to know in order to progress is has been hidden from you and must be uncovered like buried treasure. I suggest that your first step would be to give up these ideas, as they are at best misconceptions, and at worst avoidance mechanisms. In fact, you may want to explore whether your current method of dealing with certain issues may involve an "Avoidance Program" that kicks in whenever you are close to seeing your behaviour for what it is.

The Work is quite straightforward and available to everyone; it is not deeply esoteric and inaccessible to the "uninitiated". However, it is difficult and challenging, and calls on us to give up many of our most cherished ideas about ourselves and the world around us. Many people would prefer to devote their time to various kinds of "phenomena chasing" in pursuit of mysterious "hidden" knowledge, because it is easier than facing and addressing one's issues head-on.

 

[Andrew]

I agree with you that it needs to be identified, observed, and corrected but what if like I wrote to ScioAgapeOmnis it's some how blocked, or repressed so far that it may in fact be entirely invisible to the perceiver? What does one do in such a case?

You are not such a case, and I don't know that ANYONE would be such case. Let me elaborate on what I meant by "it needs to be identified, observed, and corrected":

IDENTIFIED: You are now aware that you have a Self-Punishment Program, so it has been identified. Nothing "blocked" there.

OBSERVED: This you can begin doing it at any time. As per Gurdjieff's Fourth Way teaching, you must start practicing Objective Self-Observation, in order to become more aware and familiar with how and when you run the identified Program in your life. The premise is that we are all essentially mechanical and program-driven, and that we are not able to develop our "Real I" and become truly "awake" until we get to know our "Machine".

CORRECTED: The process of Objective Self-Observation is usually a lengthy one, but Gurdjieff teaches that with discipline, patience, and daily practice we can begin to recognize the workings of our Programs and gradually eliminate them as unnecessary. It is self-defeating to be in a hurry to change or eliminate a program, because you cannot do so until you are able to SEE it.


Andrew, you seem very attached to and identified with the idea that you need to know a past-life origin of your program before you can successfully undertake the Work and begin to understand your own behaviour. You are also attached to the idea that whatever you need to know in order to progress is has been hidden from you and must be uncovered like buried treasure. I suggest that your first step would be to give up these ideas, as they are at best misconceptions, and at worst avoidance mechanisms. In fact, you may want to explore whether your current method of dealing with certain issues may involve an "Avoidance Program" that kicks in whenever you are close to seeing your behaviour for what it is.

The Work is quite straightforward and available to everyone; it is not deeply esoteric and inaccessible to the "uninitiated". However, it is difficult and challenging, and calls on us to give up many of our most cherished ideas about ourselves and the world around us. Many people would prefer to devote their time to various kinds of "phenomena chasing" in pursuit of mysterious "hidden" knowledge, because it is easier than facing and addressing one's issues head-on.

Well put, thank you Sir :)

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

PLR can also lead to many assumptions. If you're not already aware of a program, how would you know that anything that happened to you in your past life has any effect or bearing on the current life? It would be tempting and easy to say "oh I spilled hot coffee on myself in past life, that's why I have this strange pain in my arm!" and could be completely and utterly wrong. Basically, any and all connections between your current life and past life are dubious at best. If you just want PLR to give you ideas about what kinds of things to look into within yourself, such ideas are hardly scarce on this forum, websites, and reading material. Also, there is always the question of how accurate a past life regression is, how much of what you learn is really from a past life or how much is simply wrong, subjective, and corrupted, etc.

I'd even say that even using a ouija board to channel would be a much better self-development aid than PLR, since you'd be dealing with your current state of mind and programs and thought loops as they exist now, not supposed past life experiences and their questionable effects on your current life.

I agree that it is sometimes hard to notice some of our programs, but networking is an excellent way to address this issue.

 

[nicklebleu]

I have read this thread with much interest, very revealing - as usual ...

There are a few concepts I struggle with, which I would like to bring up and see, if I am on the right track.

From what I gather about past lives is, that whenever you are in a "life", you have the possibility to "learn your lessons", to advance yourself in this density. The difficulty lies herein that you don't clearly know what you have to learn. You have to find out yourself. On the other hand, between incarnations, when being "on the other side", you can see the issues more clearly, but you cannot do anything "there" directly, other than plan your next incarnation to position you in a way as to increase the probability of you learning your lesson the next incarnation around. I know this is probably an over-simplification, but that's the best I can do at this stage.

Enters Recurrence, as incarnation seems to be unavailable to most of humans due to their mechanicalness. Now this concept seems to be even more difficult - and I have to say disillusionary. We are going round in circles again and again, coming back into the same mechanical life endlessly, until - maybe - at some stage the necessary lessons have been learned. Again, I'm sure, a vast oversimplification, but bear with me ...

So the only thing that I can do, in the here and now, is what is referred to in this forum as THE WORK. Or as PepperFritz has said: Identify, Observe, Correct your Programs. Programs being a multitude of facests of my personality that are triggered by outside events that then just mechanically unfold without my consciousness being able to realize, that this is a program, and without being able to change the course of events to react more appropriately to these outside influences.

Now I am a bit at a loss here ... so to do THE WORK entails the following elements:
1. Study the literature available (e.g. the books that have been posted in the SOTT list mentioned above). This for me is a purely intellectual pursuit. Or is it not?
2. Observe yourself to identify the programs that are governing your actions. Observe them carefully, to understand, when and why they are kicking in. And maybe at some stage I will be able to correct them, when or if I understand the mechanism and do not need to go down that same avenue anymore.
3. Meditate ...? Haven't done any meditation in my life. Is this a beneficial or rather mandatory thing for one's development?
4. Channel ...? I am stuck here "in the desert" and haven't found anybody anywhere close to where I am with such interests ...
5. PLR ...? I am a bit scared of that. Mainly because I probably wouldn't be able to find out about the quality and intentions of such a therapist until it was too late ...

I know, that it is not helpful to be "lead by the hand". But I do wonder, whether what I just have written above is sort of a guidline that I can follow.

If not, please let me know ...

P.S.: Had to edit away a concept of Ra, that I had misunderstood (the space/time vs. time/space issue) ...

 

[PepperFritz]

Now I am a bit at a loss here ... so to do THE WORK entails the following elements....

Nicklebleu: I will try to address each of your points according to my current understanding of the Work. Hopefully others will provide their input and understanding as well, for I am hardly an "expert".

1. Study the literature available (e.g. the books that have been posted in the SOTT list mentioned above). This for me is a purely intellectual pursuit. Or is it not?

The recommended reading list is provided for the purpose of LEARNING. While the reading of information and instruction is not by itself sufficient to the Work, without the practical application of such, anything that adds to one's Knowledge cannot be considered "purely intellectual". "The Work" generally refers to Gurdjieff's 4th Way teachings on the possible spiritual development of man. The best introduction to those teachings is a book by his student P. D. Ouspensky, titled "In Search of the Miraculous", which is strongly recommended for anyone serious about undertaking the Work and become more familiar with the basic concepts.

2. Observe yourself to identify the programs that are governing your actions. Observe them carefully, to understand, when and why they are kicking in. And maybe at some stage I will be able to correct them, when or if I understand the mechanism and do not need to go down that same avenue anymore.

Yep, that's a pretty good summary. Networking with a group like this is very important to the process. As you do this Work, it is very helpful to get feedback from forum members about what you are observing about yourself, and how to interpret what you are observing. Plus just participating in discussions on the forum can be a way to discover more about your own programs, beliefs, and behaviour, as others have the opportunity to observe you and provide a mirror for what they are seeing.

3. Meditate ...? Haven't done any meditation in my life. Is this a beneficial or rather mandatory thing for one's development?

Mandatory? Mmmm, not sure. There is some debate as to whether Gurdjieff himself taught a form of meditation, but I understand that it is incorporated into the practice of most groups organized around his teachings. Beneficial? In my own experience, some form of quiet contemplation that effectively turns off the "noise" of one's Machine can only facilitate the Work. A extended discussion of this topic can be found in the following thread: "The Role of Meditation in the Work".

4. Channel ...?

Not part of Gurdjieff's 4th Way teachings. In my opinion, not "necessary" in the least, and downright dangerous for the average person not properly armed with protective Knowledge.

5. PLR ...?

As indicated in the discussion above, not at all "necessary", and potentially misleading and distracting from the Work.

Hope this is helpful.