STO vs STS contradiction?

F

Flinny

Guest
I am new here at SOTT & to the dialogue(s) that have gone on here for so long. I came upon the site due to my own search into the history & the activities and behavior of hierarchies. I think you can see how this interest lead me to the Ponerology topic (which I have found invaluable).

Would you all help me with something I currently see as a contradiction?

It concerns STO & STS & the Psychopathic personality.

STS is correlated to Pronerology. This personality type will naturally gravitate to a hierarchy... they want power... they want others to do their bidding.

Thus we see in todays very hierarchical world, organizations populated with pathological (or STS) personalities. And, we see conditioning of the population in support of the hierarchies.

Most of this "conditioning" trends toward stopping folks from thinking for themselves & toward accepting the "thoughts" of "experts" or "leaders" instead. And, much of this is done in the name of Altruism or Selflessness.

They want you to serve "others", with "others" being, of course themselves & their hierarchies. In other words, if I am a psychopath, would I not want to promote the concept of STO within my organization?

Perhaps I do not understand the discussions here, but to me what you discuss (relating to STO & STS), seems a contradiction to the analysis above.

Am I wrong & if so, how?

TIA,
Flinny
 
Flinny said:
I am new here at SOTT & to the dialogue(s) that have gone on here for so long. I came upon the site due to my own search into the history & the activities and behavior of hierarchies.
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Now, if you want to research some subject, you should pay attention to the details and to the context. Otherwise your reserach will be missguided. If STO is "Service to others", that does not imply that these "others" include "psychopaths". Logically, and logic is important in every research, "service to others" does not imply "all others", it means "some others", and implicitly, through the context, these "others" do not include "STS" automatically. Moreover, in a deeper sense, "service" means "service in the name of the objective truth". Providing the truth, even to STS, if they want to know it, is a "service", in the implied sense.

As you may have a problem with "what is truth?", you may like to read the little essay on "truth"

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1922&p=1

Last, but not least, common sense needs to be applied (as always). Providing the truth does not mean, for instance,
giving the thief the credit card number, so that he can steal easier ;) Providing the truth means "some truth", and which truth is to be provided or not depends on the context , on the totality of available objective data, and on the knowledge base available at any given time.
 
arkmod: "Moreover, in a deeper sense, "service" means "service in the name of the objective truth". Providing the truth, even to STS, if they want to know it, is a "service", in the implied sense."

That's for sure!

When I first posted this, the thought came to me that maybe I had read to much Ayn Rand ("The Virture of Selfishness" etc.) and that it was coloring my thoughts.

In a way, I am wondering if the folks here correlate Altruism to STO.

Certainly, the concept of Altruism has been co-opted and warped by TPTB.

(As everything seems to be)

Maybe the point being that language (symbols systems) can and are coopted by the psychopaths among us.

Thanks for link. Likely you are right & I "have a problem" with truth.

Best,
Flinny
 
Concerning the "altruism" - it is similar, yet we stress as the first principle of all
Knowledge protects. Ignorance endangers.
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Altruism without knowledge, or with inadequate knowledge, can be, to say the least, not a very smart activity.
 
Flinny said:
Most of this "conditioning" trends toward stopping folks from thinking for themselves & toward accepting the "thoughts" of "experts" or "leaders" instead. And, much of this is done in the name of Altruism or Selflessness.

They want you to serve "others", with "others" being, of course themselves & their hierarchies. In other words, if I am a psychopath, would I not want to promote the concept of STO within my organization?
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That is exactly what they are doing. The best way to hide your overly STS personality is to pretend that your acts are for the benefits of all (STO), which is what you always hear from the ones in power. But it is very easy to pretend to nice intents while doing the exact opposite! This is why they almost always get away with murder. There are many cases of this double language, especially these days from the ones in power in the US and Israel, but also from almost anyone in power positions everywhere. This way, people of the west can still think that they are the good guys in this conflict against the terrorists... This particular word gets me sick every time I hear it in the news, it's always used to justify nice intents while murdering and looting. Sorry, deviated a bit from subject, back to it:

Flinny said:
Perhaps I do not understand the discussions here, but to me what you discuss (relating to STO & STS), seems a contradiction to the analysis above.
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Not at all, the alignment of someone is not at all related to what he says or promotes . The STS alignment needs to be served by others. In fact, this is the principal activity of the STS, manipulate others to serve him directly or indirectly, and that often goes under the mask of good intentions.

That is why you will often read here: You shall judge them by their fruits.
 
I think the good analogy is the one to "creative process" and "annihilation process". Of course every creative process feeds, to some extent, the annihilation processes, but this is not its main purpose. While the main purpose of the annihilation process is, simply, to annihilate all that is created.
 
Ark,your article & the discussion brings Prigogine to mind... his discussion(s) of open vs closed systems, exporting entropy, & bifurcation.

The "meaning of life" seems to me to be... to evolve. In Ilya's terminology... "to a higher level of complexity", but it can be phrased in different ways.

Excellent, thanks.
 
Thanks, Chris. I like your use of "alignment". It clarifys the topic.

Perhaps the STO would be better phrased as STT (Service to Truth).

Best,
Flinny
 
Flinny said:
Thanks, Chris. I like your use of "alignment". It clarifys the topic.

Perhaps the STO would be better phrased as STT (Service to Truth).

Best,
Flinny
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Probably not. Because STS may have their own definition of "truth". It is better to use the duality STS vs STO. Like
in physics we have craetion and annihilation, black holes and white holes etc. Like in any "philosophy", the STS vs STO philosophy needs to be considered within the context It is easy to take any piece of any philosophy (or even of mathematics) out of the context and make it look silly or contradictory. "Knowledge" vs "ignorance" is part of the context, and "truth" versus "lies" is part of the context.
 
LOL. In thinking about your comment, I thought of Prigogine again & "order" and "entropy"

I remember discussing the concept of entropy with my Amish neighbor.
After a long dialogue, he made the following comment:

The cow eats the grass
creating his own order out of it
he then makes a cowpie (exports entropy)
the pig roots through the cowpie
creating his own version of order
and exports his entropy
the chick picks through the pig excrement
& grows to a chicken
and exports his entropy
which the grass then...

Where, in God's system, the Amish asks, is entropy?
 
The way i think of it is that with STO you have an equal give and take from both sides of an interaction. STS has one side give and one side take all the way up a chain or hierarchy.
 
Flinny said:
Perhaps the STO would be better phrased as STT (Service to Truth).
Click to expand...
I don't like too much rephrasing concepts that work pretty well, it's more that you have to understand what "others" mean in that expression because it doesn't mean your neighbor: it means the creation in general, a creative process as Ark mentionned, rather than a destructive, contractile process of doing acts that serve only you in the end. I know it is hard to understand because it never seems a clear cut choice, it requires knowledge, lots of it, more than we have almost always, to be able to define how we can make STO actions, that is probably why we are still STS, some trying to go to the STO path. Most of our day-to-day actions are STS. Therefore, this is why the first step to be STO is to gather knowledge, thruth, to know what is STO.

It reminds me of Isaac Asimov's "Psychohistory" (not sure he called that in english because I read it in french) concept in Foundation...
 
Chris: "I don't like too much rephrasing concepts that work pretty well, it's more that you have to understand what "others" mean in that expression because it doesn't mean your neighbor:"

That is very true. There is a certain period in the communication where each (if they really desire communication) adjust to the other. After which, real sharing can start to take place. That is, in effect, what I am trying to do with my question... though it is a much slower process in writing than it is in preson (where you have so many non-verbal que's to work with).

I think you have the Asimov term correct.

Best,
Flinny
 
Cyre2067: "The way i think of it is that with STO you have an equal give and take from both sides of an interaction. STS has one side give and one side take all the way up a chain or hierarchy."

That works for me. Thanks!
 
Flinny said:
The cow eats the grass
creating his own order out of it
he then makes a cowpie (exports entropy)
the pig roots through the cowpie
creating his own version of order
and exports his entropy
the chick picks through the pig excrement
& grows to a chicken
and exports his entropy
which the grass then...

Where, in God's system, the Amish asks, is entropy?
Click to expand...
At God's level (7th density), creation and entropy are consubtantial. Somehow, creation and entropy unite to bring the universe from nothingness.

At our modest level (3rd density), pure creation and pure entropy are unusual (like in the Ying and Yang symbol). If you want to create you have to live, if you want to live you have to destroy (animals, vegetals,...)

Behind those physiological contingencies, most of our acts are not perfect (integrally STO). Here comes free will, at any instant we face choices, through our actions we can induce our dynamics more towards STO (light, love, knoweldge, creation, ...) or more towards STS (darkness, fears, subjective truth, entropy,...)

Keeping in mind that as far as alignments and densities are concerned, according to the Cs we are 3D STS (that's not such a good news indeed). So, non-neglectable efforts are required if we want to change categories positively.
 
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