Seeing my own subjectivity?

[RedFox]

Hey all

I'd like to ask for some help/hint, and objective observations on the following (I feel like I'm getting wrapped up in myself trying to see it objectively).

I was reading the you create your own reality thread http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11160.0
And nomads reply started me thinking about a discussion with a friend recently. He's quite into YCYOR at the moment, and I was trying to explain (badly I realised) about seeing things objectively....I realised after a while that I was probably violating his free will, because I was trying to get him to see my point of view...I stopped at that point.

Nomads reply in that thread felt like a bit of a revelation http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11160.msg78870#msg78870 , it laid it out very clearly.
I started thinking about how it would be good to show it to my friend, then I remembered about me trying to force (even subtly) my idea on him....seems I've had that trait for a long time now.

I read it a few times, and started getting that sinking horror when you start to see part of yourself...

Perhaps yes, the power of the mind has the ability to alter reality? However there is quite a large caveat. It seems that if one acts on the basis of a subjective belief (we are all subjective to greater or lesser degree) then the results of ones actions will produce a different result from that which was intended. This has huge implications on everything we do.

Prior to this I'd noticed some patterns in my life....specifically I tend to like trying to fix things (computers)...but this is to the point where I have piles of unfixed computers laying around...
I know the theory (and quite a bit of the practical) of fixing them, and what I'd like to do with them...but it never comes out how I want
I've started to realise its a waist of energy, yet I put more and more into it to try and correct it!
In nomads post I saw for a minute or two how I am putting energy into my subjective point of view, following it and then when it fails investing more time/energy into it...always with a sense of fear/anxiety....that builds with the more energy I put in.
Talk about hit by a ton of bricks.

Another example I realise was for Christmas I decided to get everyone I know a book (from the recommended reading list or similar) along with other things.
I bought quite alot of books (always thinking who I know may have most use for it), and felt quite pleased with myself...then about an hour later felt quite depleted.
I realised at the time something had happened to my energy, but no idea what.
Now thinking of the pile of books and determining the needs of other brought back that anxiety and horror.....to think that I may have bought them all (put my energy into something) that was probably controlling (wanting them to come with me), self aggrandising (feeding)...and something they'd not asked for (although buying presents for Christmas is always odd like that).....so may receive like a bucket of vomit....thus a waste of my energy

After a few minutes of horror, I started thinking how I could limit the books going to people (maybe not so many of the in depth ones), how they'd probably receive them OK, and that they could at least choose not to read them, and maybe, just maybe they'd start to see some of the things in themselves I could...
I caught myself in what felt like a warm and comfortable soothing place in my head! Talk about wanting to vomit....

Now I seem to be stuck there, swinging between soothing and horror....

Part of me want to hear something comforting, that the books where OK presents and that they may well be received at least OK (no worse than socks)...
The other part of me wants to 'feel' the horror and get out of that warm and fuzzy place in my head.....which I can't seem to do
Its like suddenly discovering I'm a morphine addict, but I'm so full of morphine I can't seem to do (or feel) anything about it, because at the slightest hint of objective reality I borked and took another hit of morphine.

I know one of my major issues is being too much in my head....so on that note, any hints that may help me be less so? What to do with the books? Should I 'give' them anyway?
Do my observations need tuning? And how the hell do I get rid of the morphine!

 

[PepperFritz]

What to do with the books? Should I 'give' them anyway?

It seems to me that giving the books is indeed a case of determining the needs of others, of "giving" what has not been asked for. Why not donate the books to your local library, where people can choose to read them if they wish to?

 

[Tigersoap]

What to do with the books? Should I 'give' them anyway?

I don't know, maybe this isn't so bad to offer the books, especially at Christmas, I don't know if people asked for specific gifts but if they did not, why not ? why not give place to the possibility that they'd be interested in the books ?

I used to get unwanted gifts a lot so if someone had given me a meaningful book I would have enjoyed it better.

At the same time I can understand that it is not entirely considerate to people who won't even be interested in them at all.

my two cents.

 

[Al Today]

... the books where OK presents and that they may well be received at least OK (no worse than socks)... ...

Socks are useful. I get lot's of 'em. They may sit in the drawer for days, weeks, or months. Then one day I look at them and think, hey new socks. I'm gonna try 'em on. AND USE THEM. If nobody gave me socks, what would I do if I need some? It's up to them to use them, or not. If they never received socks, and found they had none, then wanted some, they (the gifts) would not be there and they may go out and buy cheap imitations. Not of the same quality that goes into a thoughtful present.

I guess what I'm trying to say is perhaps you are "giving", providing opportunity, exposure. Personally, I have thoughts of wonder of what would I be now without access to all this information on the forum and related material. I wonder what kind of junk would be in my head right now if I were never EXPOSED to Laura's work. Lookee at what we have here on the forum, and related materials. We have opportunity. To do with whatever we CHOOSE. Absolutely nobody is forcing me here. And I am grateful for this opportunity. If someone develops an urge, a sparkling of need to learn, where would they turn to if they did not have those presents (books)?

 

[Miss Isness]

How about enclosing a little note that says: I found this book really interesting. It may or may not be your cup of tea. If not, feel free to pass it on. :)

 

[Al Today]

... How about enclosing a little note ...

I think it could a good idea. And it can have the desired result. Is that a STS oriented desire or want? I did that very thing with the bible when I performed missionary work, way back when... With no derogatory intent meant Miss Isness, just be it known that is an old missionary "trick of the trade".

 

[gwb1995]

Al Today, I agree with your observation. Just including a note would be yet another transgression into the original manipulation of giving the book in the first place. The very nature of giving someone a gift is difficult at best in my opinion. My thought process when trying to select a gift for someone, is to try to think of what might be of value to the person, something they could enjoy and/or benefit from. I think this may have been your original thought when you decided on the books. However, this is a very slippery slope, as you now realize. I can see this in my own statement above, when I see the word 'value'. I may see value in something, but someone else may not. I think this is where the 'socks' come into play for all of us, even those not involved with the work. All of us on the giving end of the equation are faced with the same problems, as most people don't want to give a gift that is unwanted or not useful to the person.

Giving gifts gets difficult when the only options for a specific person seem to be against my thoughts or current state of thinking. What can one do is such a situation? Again the 'socks' come into play for most people who want to give a gift that is thoughtful and considerate. Anyone can purchase a gift card from most retailers, but it does not suit those of us who want to give a thoughtful gift. This is a real problem for those of us trying to do the work. The only thing anyone can do (imho) is just try to do the best we can without violating anyone's freewill.

In this situation, the only solution I can offer, is to donate the books to a library, or any worthy source you can find, and send a card to the people who you purchased these books for, and tell them that you have donated a book in their name, as your gift to them. If they are subjective, or into material things/possessions and don't appreciate your gift, so be it.

FWIW,

gwb

 

[Miss Isness]

... How about enclosing a little note ...

I think it could a good idea. And it can have the desired result. Is that a STS oriented desire or want? I did that very thing with the bible when I performed missionary work, way back when... With no derogatory intent meant Miss Isness, just be it known that is an old missionary "trick of the trade".

I think the point is to avoid anticipating any kind of result. That's the only way you can truly give someone a choice. As for a missionary trick of the trade, when I was little I used to say I wanted to be a missionary - a flute playing missionary!

 

[Oxajil]

Al Today, I agree with your observation. Just including a note would be yet another transgression into the original manipulation of giving the book in the first place. The very nature of giving someone a gift is difficult at best in my opinion. My thought process when trying to select a gift for someone, is to try to think of what might be of value to the person, something they could enjoy and/or benefit from. I think this may have been your original thought when you decided on the books. However, this is a very slippery slope, as you now realize. I can see this in my own statement above, when I see the word 'value'. I may see value in something, but someone else may not. I think this is where the 'socks' come into play for all of us, even those not involved with the work. All of us on the giving end of the equation are faced with the same problems, as most people don't want to give a gift that is unwanted or not useful to the person.

I have a friend who lives in a family that suffers from diabetes. Her father had it (he died) and her mother has it, if I remember well so did her grandmother. So there might be a chance for her to get diabetes too. Let's say she doesn't really care about what she eats. Just yesterday, she told me that she eats ''everything''. I told her about the book ''The Magnesium Miracle'' and told her that there is some interesting info about diabetes and how one can treat it or prevent. I even told her the site where I bought it, and I know her, so I know that she can purchase it if she would be interested. She said she was interested, but apparently she doesn't want to 'waste' money on it (she didn't said this, though). So all I can do now, is to just drop a few hints here and there, for example I told her that apple's are good (for her mother) (if this can be seen as a hint...) etc. And just yesterday I gave her a Christmas card with a sample of Stevia.

Honestly, I don't want to give her the book as a gift. Is this selfish? It's not because I am angry or anything, not at all. I realize that everyone has her/his lessons (or perhaps.. not really, because the next sentence sounds a bit contradicting..). But not much effort has come from her side. Especially when I heard that she eats everything after all those times we talked about how dangerous additives can be, (she especially eats a LOT of chocolate).
Also, while writing this, I see how much information I let loose, is this, do you think wrong of me? I don't push her in to anything, I just tell her what I've learned etc. and she always finds it interesting, perhaps I was expecting something from her (I think I did..). I know now, that you can tell someone anything, but they will forget the emergency of the message quickly, unless they have tasted the danger themselves.
Now my question is; am I being too selfish here by, for example, not buying her a book that could help her treat or prevent diabetes?

She would like it though, if I would buy her the book. And I think she would read it too. But I just, somehow, feel like I have to do everything for her you know (apparently by ''choice''). I gave her the signs, the information and where she can get it, it feels like I'm putting a lot of effort and energy in it to get her informed, perhaps my expectations/assumptions are draining me, but I don't want that...
I don't want to give her the book as a present..
And perhaps I should stop talking about 'what I've learned' to her and stop sharing any other information, until the time feels right.. Even if there is some sticky feeling when you know what's in her food that she's eating and knowing you can do nothing about it..

 

[PepperFritz]

Your friends "misery" may look like the 'objective' here in your post, but you only seem
concerned for your self, that is, if you are selfish.... You also seem concerned of what
(the forum community) think of you, or am I wrong?

That is not my impression, Rhobiuz. I think you may be misinterpreting Oxajil's purpose due to the fact you have not been participating in the forum long, and do not yet understand some aspects of its function. Members of the forum are encouraged to ask for "feedback" from other members when they are unsure of about their own objectivity in a given situation, as part of "the Work". Since others involved in the Work are usually more objective (on a collective basis) than the person directly involved in the given situation, they are often able to act as a "mirror" to that person, and help him to see more clearly.

I have never observed Oxajil to be particularly "concerned of what the forum community think" of him. I think he's simply asking for objective feedback.

 

[webglider]

I think that there is a difference between having a conversation about a topic of interest and having a conversation where one of the participants has an agenda. It's a difference that can be perceived energetically, and it does feel like manipulation. Even if it is well meaning, it can be off-putting. The implication seems to be that the recipient of the information is not on the same level as the provider of the information. The more the recipient is pushed, the more he or she may resist. The same goes for presents.

The other part of this dynamic is that the person trying to help often loses a great deal of energy, while the intended recipient of this help may feel a sense of power over the helpe who leaves himself open by wanting to help so much. The door is open for manipulation - on both sides.

If you've planted the seeds of information, let them live in the dark for awhile so that, when the time is right, they can unfold by themselves. Then the person may come to you.

(Full disclosure: I don't follow my own advice, but I'm trying.)

I think socks are a great idea; there's no agenda that I can see behind the giving of socks, no possibility of emotional misfirings or power struggles. They're thoughtful, but not intensely so, useful, but not didactic, whimsical but also practical, practical but also thoughtful.

And a gift of socks can lead to conversations on a perpetually perplexing and unresolvable issue; that is, why the two matches of a pair of socks can't seem to stay together.

(I am in no way associated with the sock industry).

In any case, it's supposed to be a very cold winter...

 

[Oxajil]

Well it is your choice!

Yes, which 'I' made that choice?

Also, perhaps that feeling you speak of may be something of an "I was expecting something
from her", which is still the case. - "I think she would read it too." - perhaps expecting
anything is of no value in any case.

Yes, I agree. I should perhaps stop expecting anything from her.

But since she said she was interested and you think she would read the book, it might
be an good 'gift' for Christmas, assuming she celebrate it? IMO. :)

Hmm ye I've been thinking that as well..

I think that there is a difference between having a conversation about a topic of interest and having a conversation where one of the participants has an agenda. It's a difference that can be perceived energetically, and it does feel like manipulation. Even if it is well meaning, it can be off-putting. The implication seems to be that the recipient of the information is not on the same level as the provider of the information. The more the recipient is pushed, the more he or she may resist. The same goes for presents.

Yes, exactly what I've been observing from her. The book might be a great gift, but perhaps the reason behind giving this book could be kind of manipulative...

The other part of this dynamic is that the person trying to help often loses a great deal of energy, while the intended recipient of this help may feel a sense of power over the helpe who leaves himself open by wanting to help so much. The door is open for manipulation - on both sides.

Yes, true.

If you've planted the seeds of information, let them live in the dark for awhile so that, when the time is right, they can unfold by themselves. Then the person may come to you.

Exactly. You know, just a few days ago, I told my mother about the Magnesium oil and it's effects etc. Couple of days later she came to me herself and that she wanted me to spray it on her. Also, she decided herself to have a tbsp of Flax oil. I didn't push her, I just told her about it, bought it myself and I told her, if you want to use it as well, you can use it, it's your choice..
Although, I have to agree, I was pushy in some situations, gosh, it ain't easy, but I will keep on observing, noting and keep on Working on myself.

I think socks are a great idea; there's no agenda that I can see behind the giving of socks, no possibility of emotional misfirings or power struggles. They're thoughtful, but not intensely so, useful, but not didactic, whimsical but also practical, practical but also thoughtful.

And a gift of socks can lead to conversations on a perpetually perplexing and unresolvable issue; that is, why the two matches of a pair of socks can't seem to stay together.

(I am in no way associated with the sock industry).

In any case, it's supposed to be a very cold winter...

Hehe true! Thanks, giving socks does seem a great idea.

 

[RedFox]

Thanks for all the feedback on this!
It always amazes me what others can see that I can't.

The book might be a great gift, but perhaps the reason behind giving this book could be kind of manipulative...

I think that comes to the heart of it all.
On the surface I had very similar thoughts to everyone who has posted about the books being a reasonable idea (perhaps being there when they need them etc), but under it all seems to be a manipulative thread.
Truth hiding/justifying lies?

Its really odd seeing that in myself.

Perhaps you are also determining their needs by giving them all socks?

Christmas is a funny old thing....a time for 'giving' (determining the needs of others).
The last few years I've tried to give only whats been asked for, for birthdays/christmases. Although if someone doesn't know what they want it can be tricky....
But again, these thoughts masked my manipulation it seems....

The very nature of giving someone a gift is difficult at best in my opinion. My thought process when trying to select a gift for someone, is to try to think of what might be of value to the person, something they could enjoy and/or benefit from. I think this may have been your original thought when you decided on the books. However, this is a very slippery slope, as you now realize.

Exactly, I think more than a slippery slope however, its more entangled thinking....the manipulation hides itself with truth and diversion...
I figure they could all benefit from one or other recommended book (hence I worked out who could most use what)....
In some cases I know the friends well enough to know they will probably find them useful, but for others I definitely think I'm trying to drag them along
Didn't realise how selfish I can be in that respect until now

This learning can be rather tricky

Honestly, I don't want to give her the book as a gift. Is this selfish? It's not because I am angry or anything, not at all.

Just a side observation, whenever I hear someone/myself say 'Its not because I'm angry' or 'I'm not trying to cause trouble....' or 'Its not to hurt your feelings' I can't help thinking there part of them/me that is actually angry or wanting to cause trouble or hurt someone.....

I realize that everyone has her/his lessons (or perhaps.. not really, because the next sentence sounds a bit contradicting..). But not much effort has come from her side. Especially when I heard that she eats everything after all those times we talked about how dangerous additives can be, (she especially eats a LOT of chocolate).
Also, while writing this, I see how much information I let loose, is this, do you think wrong of me? I don't push her in to anything, I just tell her what I've learned etc. and she always finds it interesting, perhaps I was expecting something from her (I think I did..). I know now, that you can tell someone anything, but they will forget the emergency of the message quickly, unless they have tasted the danger themselves.
Now my question is; am I being too selfish here by, for example, not buying her a book that could help her treat or prevent diabetes?

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/170591-Sugar-Addiction-is-Real noticed this on the sott main page about sugar addiction.
Your observations about her not putting the effort in and expecting to be given everything, shows that she may not be ready to help herself. Who's to say it won't help her out of it though? (this is the dilemma I've faced)
Perhaps if you do decide to give the book, try and do it in an aware/un-anticipating state as possible, i.e. acknowledge that she's not asking because she's stuck in a victim role at the moment (or so it seems)...but perhaps its temporary if she can see a way out? Having had many of her family die from it, probably means she is avoiding the issue of her own death to some extent too.

She would like it though, if I would buy her the book. And I think she would read it too. But I just, somehow, feel like I have to do everything for her you know (apparently by ''choice'').

Perhaps she would like it because it plays into the role of not having to do it herself? Maybe she'd only read it to find ways to keep you 'giving'

I gave her the signs, the information and where she can get it, it feels like I'm putting a lot of effort and energy in it to get her informed, perhaps my expectations/assumptions are draining me, but I don't want that...
I don't want to give her the book as a present..

I'd say go with the observation....
I wonder if you did get her the book with this knowledge, perhaps observing the outcome would give you a better picture?? A chance to learn (this is what I'm considering now anyway)

I think that there is a difference between having a conversation about a topic of interest and having a conversation where one of the participants has an agenda. It's a difference that can be perceived energetically, and it does feel like manipulation. Even if it is well meaning, it can be off-putting. The implication seems to be that the recipient of the information is not on the same level as the provider of the information. The more the recipient is pushed, the more he or she may resist. The same goes for presents.

The other part of this dynamic is that the person trying to help often loses a great deal of energy, while the intended recipient of this help may feel a sense of power over the helpe who leaves himself open by wanting to help so much. The door is open for manipulation - on both sides.

I've noticed that too. I think its actually half of the way I catch myself in those situations (from whichever side I find myself on). Gut instinct and energetic perception seem linked.

I think socks are a great idea; there's no agenda that I can see behind the giving of socks, no possibility of emotional misfirings or power struggles. They're thoughtful, but not intensely so, useful, but not didactic, whimsical but also practical, practical but also thoughtful.

And a gift of socks can lead to conversations on a perpetually perplexing and unresolvable issue; that is, why the two matches of a pair of socks can't seem to stay together.

(I am in no way associated with the sock industry).

In any case, it's supposed to be a very cold winter...

I think I'll be getting a few people socks this christmas!
As to the books, some I will give as presents (whilst trying to follow my own advice of being aware at all levels of the many why's/I's reasoning behind it). And try and observe the dynamics and the outcome. Given 99% of these will be sent in the post anyway, that may be interesting. Does this seem like a reasonable idea? Or have I missed the point?
Seems this is a rather important lesson to learn (not determining the needs of others whilst in a STS environment).....it going to take some time and effort.

 

[fabric]

[quote author=RedFox]

[snip]

The very nature of giving someone a gift is difficult at best in my opinion. My thought process when trying to select a gift for someone, is to try to think of what might be of value to the person, something they could enjoy and/or benefit from. I think this may have been your original thought when you decided on the books. However, this is a very slippery slope, as you now realize.

Exactly, I think more than a slippery slope however, its more entangled thinking....the manipulation hides itself with truth and diversion...
I figure they could all benefit from one or other recommended book (hence I worked out who could most use what)....
In some cases I know the friends well enough to know they will probably find them useful, but for others I definitely think I'm trying to drag them along
Didn't realise how selfish I can be in that respect until now

This learning can be rather tricky

[/quote]


To me that is the crucial thing, to know the person well enough that they might find such a book interesting. If for example, you know someone who likes cookbooks, then perhaps chances are they will most likely read it or find it useful. If you know this person never cooks and can't even make macaroni and cheese, but buy them a cook book in the hopes that they might be 'inspired' to cook something - well, you're just wasting your time and money, osit. Also intent comes into play, and as long there is no expectation / anticipation of what may result, then it's probably not such a bad thing.

I think that there is a difference between having a conversation about a topic of interest and having a conversation where one of the participants has an agenda. It's a difference that can be perceived energetically, and it does feel like manipulation. Even if it is well meaning, it can be off-putting. The implication seems to be that the recipient of the information is not on the same level as the provider of the information. The more the recipient is pushed, the more he or she may resist. The same goes for presents.

The other part of this dynamic is that the person trying to help often loses a great deal of energy, while the intended recipient of this help may feel a sense of power over the helpe who leaves himself open by wanting to help so much. The door is open for manipulation - on both sides.

...Lol - for some reason I thought it said "same goes for parents". Which also funnily enough, seems to apply as well.

So yea, I've totally done that, both the providing and receiving and agenda's most definitely creep in there. At first when learning about the Wave and C's and all that good stuff, I had to really try hard and be careful not to come out like a Jehovah's witness, violating free will all over the place! And I've had the Bible thumpers at my door and observing my own behaviour, I realized, doesn't matter what you're selling, most people don't want to hear about it. So I try to find more subtle and creative ways so spread ideas around (ie, leaving bookmarks in libraries or public areas).

 

[darknics]

Well first of all I want to say I do exactly the same thing, when I identify an ideea that I think it is worth my attention I try to draw in all the people next to me because of some sort of "this is the way" feeling, I cannot explain it, it seems to come like second nature to me. Now I dont want to go into all the possible details of why exactly I think this is good or bad because quite recently I started to "get" another ideea that seems to teach me that "good" or "bad" does not actually exist and we come up with things that make us "feel good". The main concern for me right now in order to get rid of this pesky feeling that "I am manipulating others" (oh yeah I have it too bigtime) is to let everything come into place, and the main ideea that drew me here, on this forum, was actually an excerpt from the Cassiopeans messages, a rather small answer which I will try to reproduce through my own words so that the "subjective bug" is caught "red handed" sort to speak : "You dont have to do ANYTHING, things will develop as a natural progression!" so with that in mind I think we should just follow our intentions, of course at the same time having the intention to not try to manipulate others, respect their free will and let them make up their mind, and at the same time trying to follow through with our intentions...( I know it is inproper to take things out of context, but we all do that when we process things I think :)
Sry I kinda got carried away, hope you will find a resolve to your present and future quests.