I've posted a couple topics detailing the personal problems I've been having with my "partner." We've got 2 kids & have been together 8 years, and she's been telling me she loves me for the past few months yet doesnt know what she wants. Now I find out she's been seeing another guy and I thought it couldnt get any worse! I am in a state of extreme worry and sadness for my kids. How can someone lie like that and rip a family apart? I just dont know anymore.
Reality Crashes Down
- Thread starter Ominous
- Start date
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Hi Ominous.
I'm sorry - I'm sorry because I know how painful it is - however, I am not surprised. Now, perhaps you can see her more clearly - see what she is and not what you want her to be - what you have always believed her to be. At the very least, perhaps, now you can see exactly what is in store if you do not take some action in favor of your own destiny - because one thing is for certain - she will not change.
You now, after these shocks - should be able to glimpse the truth of the situation - as horrible and painful as it is. If you do not pay close attention - and REMEMBER at ALL times - who and what she is (what she is capable of) - this will continue until there is nothing left of you.
So, it is time to start to take action - that means facing the reality of the situation.
The links of the left side of the page might help as well - I'm not saying that she is definitely psychopathic - just saying that her behavior indicates a pathology and you might find clues in this material.
Pay attention, Ominous - don't let 'wishful thinking' get you again.
I'm sorry - I'm sorry because I know how painful it is - however, I am not surprised. Now, perhaps you can see her more clearly - see what she is and not what you want her to be - what you have always believed her to be. At the very least, perhaps, now you can see exactly what is in store if you do not take some action in favor of your own destiny - because one thing is for certain - she will not change.
You now, after these shocks - should be able to glimpse the truth of the situation - as horrible and painful as it is. If you do not pay close attention - and REMEMBER at ALL times - who and what she is (what she is capable of) - this will continue until there is nothing left of you.
So, it is time to start to take action - that means facing the reality of the situation.
Perhaps she can lie like that because she is not like you - she very likely lies about everything all the time - and not in just the usual way most people do. Have you done any reading on psychopathy? It might go quite a long way to helping you understand what you're dealing with. http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htmOminous said:
The links of the left side of the page might help as well - I'm not saying that she is definitely psychopathic - just saying that her behavior indicates a pathology and you might find clues in this material.
Pay attention, Ominous - don't let 'wishful thinking' get you again.
PepperFritz
The Cosmic Force
Dearest Ominous. This will sound trite, but I am sincere: How my heart goes out to you, for I have been in a similar situation in the past, and your emotional pain is palpable. What you are going through is difficult, harrowing, heart-breaking, unbearable -- yet you WILL survive it. And it is your love for those children that will enable you to rise above and work through the pain, even if you will often feel nothing but numbness and be one of the "walking wounded".
Relationships involve two people. If a marriage has turned out to be based on "illusion", both participants wove those illusions together, for their own reasons. At some point you will need to stop asking why your partner did this, that, and the other, and concentrate on why YOU did this, that, and the other. Nor in order to lay blame. But to know your machine. And to wake up.
I don't know if you're ready to hear this yet, but remember: Everyone lies. Everyone. Including you. To themselves and to others. It is the nature of the machine. It took me YEARS to even begin to see the various ways in which I also lied, deceived, and manipulated my way through my marriage, even though I got to play the role of the faithful "victim" and he got condemned as "the bad guy". It is a hard lesson to learn, and many can never bring themselves to see themselves as they are -- it is just too ugly, too shocking, too shocking to be believed. Far less painful to stay cocooned in the role of "victim".ominous said:
Relationships involve two people. If a marriage has turned out to be based on "illusion", both participants wove those illusions together, for their own reasons. At some point you will need to stop asking why your partner did this, that, and the other, and concentrate on why YOU did this, that, and the other. Nor in order to lay blame. But to know your machine. And to wake up.
Children are extremely resilient. All they need is your unconditional love. Make them your #1 priority, and they will see YOU through.ominous said:
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Pepperfritz, no offense, but the 'children are extremely resilient and they will see him through' comment really smacks of narcissism. It is never a child's responsibility to 'see an adult through' anything.
And while children may 'seem' resilient, they don't 'bounce back' as quoted by Gavin de Becker in the forward to Anna Salter's book 'Predators, pedophiles, rapists, and other sex offenders' :
At this point in time, it seems much more important that Ominous focus on seeing the truth of the matter and paying attention to the reality of what his wife is doing and who she is. It really is a distraction - at this point - to focus on what he's done in the relationship to 'cause' her serial cheating - at least this is my take on it - because I get the sense that there is literally nothing he could have done any differently to change anything at all.
Right now - first things first and that means breaking the spell - the illusion that she is, or ever has been, anything other than what she has evidenced through her adultery. Until he can see that clearly, he will continue to think that these 'episodes' are just aberrations and his wife really does love him, she's just 'confused' - which is horse hockey - he has to utilize all his strength and energy to first see clearly that his wife is not what he believes her to be - osit.
Then, he can look more deeply into why he was in this situation to begin with and what role he played in believing what he wanted to believe - but first things first - and that is seeing it as it is. (reading up on narcissists will help too - lots of info on the forum and elsewhere on that one) - this is, of course, just my personal take on it.
And while children may 'seem' resilient, they don't 'bounce back' as quoted by Gavin de Becker in the forward to Anna Salter's book 'Predators, pedophiles, rapists, and other sex offenders' :
It is not Ominous' children's job to see either of their parents through anything - however, with that said, his children have, on some level, chosen this situation and life lesson - it is an extremely complicated situation with many variables - variables that must be seen clearly in order that they be navigated to the benefit of everyone involved.de Becker said:
At this point in time, it seems much more important that Ominous focus on seeing the truth of the matter and paying attention to the reality of what his wife is doing and who she is. It really is a distraction - at this point - to focus on what he's done in the relationship to 'cause' her serial cheating - at least this is my take on it - because I get the sense that there is literally nothing he could have done any differently to change anything at all.
Right now - first things first and that means breaking the spell - the illusion that she is, or ever has been, anything other than what she has evidenced through her adultery. Until he can see that clearly, he will continue to think that these 'episodes' are just aberrations and his wife really does love him, she's just 'confused' - which is horse hockey - he has to utilize all his strength and energy to first see clearly that his wife is not what he believes her to be - osit.
Then, he can look more deeply into why he was in this situation to begin with and what role he played in believing what he wanted to believe - but first things first - and that is seeing it as it is. (reading up on narcissists will help too - lots of info on the forum and elsewhere on that one) - this is, of course, just my personal take on it.
PepperFritz
The Cosmic Force
No offense taken. You are absolutely right. On re-reading my post, I can very much see that's how my comment reads. However, it is not what I meant, and I should have taken more care in how I phrased it. In another context, I would take the time to try and explain myself more fully, but I fear I shall just put my foot in it further, which is no help to Ominous.anart said:
Apologies.
Mr. Premise
The Living Force
My heart also goes out to you, Ominous. All I can say is that if I were you I would really take Anart's post (#61505) to heart. I would read it at least once a day.
H
Hildegarda
Guest
dear Ominous ... I am so sorry to hear this.Ominous said:
Unfortunately, what you describe appears more common than not. I.e., only exceptionally strong and aware people will be honest about their feelings to their partner. For the average majority, "I love you but don't know what I want" is a cover-up of something\someone else that's influencing their lives.
I feel bad that I didn't see your other topics. I have seen this exact setup so many times on women's and parenting forums, that I would have brought it up to you. I don't know what moves those people: pathology or fear\guilt\lack of self-confidence and self-respect. It probably depends on a particular situation.
The fact that it happens doesn't make it any less traumatic, of course. I am wishing you a lot of strength at this time.
It is very telling that your first concern is about your children, it shows that you are a good person and a responsible parent. Being with them -- just being with them physically, spending quantity and quality time together -- is probably the best thing, and will help make the transition easier, if only a bit. Another thing is trying to maintain respectful and calm communication with your partner, keep your emotions in check, while at the same time enforcing responsibilities and nipping in the bud any manipulations possibly coming from her. That would keep down the stress level in the family.
Hang in there, we support you {{{}}}
Hi Ominous,
remember - all there is are lessons !
There is a great essay written by Orage entitled About Love. I know these are hard times and it must be very hard to focus but reading and understanding it may help you to see the light.
This essay was a total eye opener for me and it gave me a big incentive
It can be found here:
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/0Gurdjieff/ConsciousLove.pdf
remember - all there is are lessons !
There is a great essay written by Orage entitled About Love. I know these are hard times and it must be very hard to focus but reading and understanding it may help you to see the light.
This essay was a total eye opener for me and it gave me a big incentive
It can be found here:
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/0Gurdjieff/ConsciousLove.pdf
Color
Jedi Council Member
Huh... It's not surprising me. It's painful for you but after the first shock, it would be good to reexamine the situationOminous said:
and see how expected, actually, this one was. I know your pain is personal and deep, but the whole scenario
is well known. In some way - you are blessed for discovering this now. I wish I knew my
ex husband was all over the town when I was crying my heart out at home, with a baby in my arms, figuring
how to 'save' our marriage and help him. It would help me to see the whole situation in much more objective manner.
You have that opportunity now, situation started to reveal itself for what it is, truly.. Showing you with whom you're actually dealing with.
Use this opportunity and transform all that into a better situation for your kids and for yourself, cause this family situation was just a big lie, wishful thinking. So - wake up and start working on better reality.
Read or re-read that link on Psychopathy, you will benefit from it for sure. You're not alone, so - don't let the pain
and sorrows put you down, looking at your kids shouldn't remind you of what you've dreamed they'll have
and throwing you into a regret mode; look at your kids as a reminder to find the strength to act for their better tomorrow.
Yes, I should've been expecting this after months of warning signs, i.e. arriving at 6am or later after working a 2nd shift job. It hurts like a mother. We talked about it last night, & she says she really likes this guy. That's why she was gone all the time. She actually spent way more time with this guy than her kids! And I actually woke up crying this morning, as my delusions came crumbling down. Anart is more than correct; I haven't been seeing her as she is, but as I wish her to be. I don't believe she's a psychopath - just extremely vain, self-centered, yet with very low self-esteem. Does that make sense? I can torture myself all day long at work with images of what she's doing...I woke up crying this morning, mourning the loss of my illusion. The world seems dull and grey. I sure am grateful for my children...without them, self-pity would surely overtake me.
Color
Jedi Council Member
Of course she did. Does that really surprise you? Or, are you trying to paint her even worst than she really is by calculating her 'sins'?Ominous said:
I'm not saying that she's not messed up.. In one way, what she's doing is 'wrong', on the other hand, if she was unhappy and very low self-esteem, looking up for another playground -which will enable her to persuade her role- without a need to change herself (she's simply changing the game partner), it's easy for her to 'fall in love' with this other guy and trying to spend as much time with him as she can- it's understandable. It doesn't make it any easier for you, but it's not such a mystery why she acts the way she does, that's all I'm trying to say here.
Anyway, like you said - you can torture yourself all day long with imagining, analyzing and hurting yourself with her acts, it won't get you very far. It will get you nowhere desirable, nor your kids. It's enough of the chaos as it is - pull yourself together, cry your heart out (privately) if you need to and move into a direction which is the best one for your kids and for you. Hanging onto illusions and nostalgia only digs the hole beneath your feet deeper. You're a smart guy, you know that.
It makes sense to you, at the time, none of us here can answer that one for you, and it's not even the point.Ominous said:
As Anart said - you're dealing with a person who's behavior indicates a pathology.
You can not expect those persons to base or reason their behavior the way 'normal' person does. It's a whole new world...
So, whomever she is - confront yourself with it and stop dreaming of saving her or changing her just to fit in your dreams of a family
and move on.
You have every right to feel what you feel, just don't let it control your actions.Ominous said:
Acknowledge your hurt and cry it out and think about what's a best thing to do next, to put an end on this chaos.
It's completely irrational to expect for this pain to go away before you will act. The pain can stay for quite some time, acknowledge it
and do something positive, with those feelings. Use them as your reminder not to fall into such an illusion/sleep again.
Try focusing on your kids, in a constructive way, for their best interests and observing all the options objectively.
Ask for some help if you need it. If you fall - it's not good for them or for you, in any way, period. One parent doing that is enough.
Work with what you know and can do for their best, at the time and circumstances involved. Only you know the whole situation.
Consulting someone, even few persons from different fields of expertise, of what can be done, in precise steps - is OK,
when one feels overwhelmed. Just remember how all this, you're going through, many people went through,
feeling all you feel (and even worst), and found their way out. Learn from them instead of learning it all from your own mistakes,
can save you much hurt.
To me it does. She does not have to be a psychopath to behave like one on occasion. And it's possible that as you have been learning and growing and cleaning up your own act, some "part" of her may be realizing that you aren't going to give her the dreamy illusions, food and sleep she has been enjoying, and so she has sought them elsewhere. I concur with advice you've already been given: you really need to look this situation straight in the face and act with sobriety and a clear head, despite the emotional storm you are feeling at the moment. You can change your situation for the better, but it will not be easy. Take it one step at a time.Ominous said:
Then keep them in mind. By acting FOR the part of yourself that loves Truth and refuses to live in lies, you also set an example for any of your children who happen to have a similar nature to yourself. By observing yourself, sober action, and firm resolve, you can create order out of the chaos of your current situation.Ominous said:
I wish you strength, wisdom and good luck for your tasks ahead.
I thank Deckard for the link to Orage's "On Love".
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/0Gurdjieff/ConsciousLove.pdf
"On Love" was pivotal, when I experienced betrayal, to understanding that I did not
know love. I have been on both sides of this fence. I have betrayed and I have been
betrayed. The anger, despair, confusion, and pain I experienced when betrayed forced me to
question, What is the meaning of this suffering? Have I been here before? Who is
involved? How did I get here? First I noticed I didn't feel the pain when I was the betrayer.
I saw that my love was self-centered possessiveness. Love as I knew it was stealing and lies.
My own love was a lie, I wasn't capable of conscious love. When I saw the vampire in myself
I experienced compassion and the beginning of conscious suffering by accepting the reality
without wishful thinking or manipulation. I did not further attempt to stop her free will. This
was the beginning of communication.
not the denial of a psychopath. I blamed my partner for our child's suffering, but I chose to have
a child with her. I began to talk of my own pain and complicity in lies and misunderstanding.
It was one of the hardest things I have done. I stopped wearing a mask in my relationship and
stood in my confused, childish, and lying shoes.
complicity in this situation. My exploration of my own lies led me to see I possessed
my children, I possessed my partner, I didn't love them. The SHOCK of seeing myself changed me.
Your partner may be able to find her way if you are honest. I must say I experienced a great joy
when I saw who I was and stopped focusing on my partner as the problem. We were both
liars and thieves. We did not run from this shared pain. Today, she is married in a partnership
formed on terms she and I learned in our shared pain. We later "lightly let each other go" after all that
suffering experienced.
Paraphrasing Gurdjieff, "WE MUST PAY WITH CASH, IN FULL, AND IN ADVANCE."
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/0Gurdjieff/ConsciousLove.pdf
"On Love" was pivotal, when I experienced betrayal, to understanding that I did not
know love. I have been on both sides of this fence. I have betrayed and I have been
betrayed. The anger, despair, confusion, and pain I experienced when betrayed forced me to
question, What is the meaning of this suffering? Have I been here before? Who is
involved? How did I get here? First I noticed I didn't feel the pain when I was the betrayer.
I saw that my love was self-centered possessiveness. Love as I knew it was stealing and lies.
My own love was a lie, I wasn't capable of conscious love. When I saw the vampire in myself
I experienced compassion and the beginning of conscious suffering by accepting the reality
without wishful thinking or manipulation. I did not further attempt to stop her free will. This
was the beginning of communication.
These words echo in my ear, across the years. I find an attempt at honesty in your partners words,ominous said:
not the denial of a psychopath. I blamed my partner for our child's suffering, but I chose to have
a child with her. I began to talk of my own pain and complicity in lies and misunderstanding.
It was one of the hardest things I have done. I stopped wearing a mask in my relationship and
stood in my confused, childish, and lying shoes.
orage said:
Perhaps, she will not change, but you will from this gift, if it is used to see your ownanart said:
complicity in this situation. My exploration of my own lies led me to see I possessed
my children, I possessed my partner, I didn't love them. The SHOCK of seeing myself changed me.
Your partner may be able to find her way if you are honest. I must say I experienced a great joy
when I saw who I was and stopped focusing on my partner as the problem. We were both
liars and thieves. We did not run from this shared pain. Today, she is married in a partnership
formed on terms she and I learned in our shared pain. We later "lightly let each other go" after all that
suffering experienced.
Paraphrasing Gurdjieff, "WE MUST PAY WITH CASH, IN FULL, AND IN ADVANCE."
mada85
The Cosmic Force
Hi Ominous. Sounds like you're having one hell of a time right now, and it also looks to me like the major portion of it is grief. Something in you has died – expectations, ideas, illusions, not to mention a big part of your life.Ominous said:
In 1992 my wife died, leaving me (literally) holding the baby – our daughter was three years and nine months at the time. I thought I was prepared for her death (knowing she had a terminal illness, etc) but still I was unprepared, as even with awareness of the situation, when the rubber hit the road, reality overwhelmed my denial and preconceived ideas.
The reason I'm telling you this is because having a young child to take care of really helped keep my feet on the ground. Or, to put it in different terminology – being required to act in service to another helped me to cope with my grief.
So, Ominous, hang in there, take care of your kids, and check into the forum for support
