Re: The Black Madonna

Pierre

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Laura said:
Such early legends made Lawrence a native of Huesca (Roman Osca) in Hispania Tarraconensis who had received religious instruction from Archdeacon Sixtus in Rome.

I don't know if it can help this research but there are some specific features about Huesca. It's a spanish town located in the Pyrenees which flag displays a knight holding a spear (full size picture here)

100px-Escudo_de_Huesca.svg.png


and Huesca cathedral includes an hexagonal tower (full size picture here)

200px-Catedral_de_Huesca.jpg
 

gdpetti

Jedi Council Member
:lol: Ok, maybe it's one of those Thor's Pantheum and Project Awaken things, but that picture reminded me of the cartoon series Samurai Jack on Cartoon Network in reruns I think now... used to watch it.. interesting in the beginning before it went too childish. :-[ as the plotline is:
Samurai Jack. Trapped in the future by an evil shape-shifting wizard named Aku, ancient warrior Samurai Jack fights diligently in his quest to rid the world of Aku's curse while also searching for the time portal that will finally take him home.
Sounds a little familiar doesn't it? :D
 

Laura

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What does "Huesca" mean? Can we get a map and see where it is? Any details? Who knows? It might be a clue to follow.
 

StrangeCaptain

Jedi Council Member
Hello all,

From google maps:

_http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Huesca is about 100 km south, 20 km west of Lourdes, France.

Checking the easy places first (_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huesca)... It is a very old town with a pre-Roman history. Its Iberian name was Bolskan. Its Roman name was Osca. It looks like the name Huesca may come from the Iberian, but at first glance, little is known of this extinct, ancient language (_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language). Not surprisingly, nothing is mentioned of what is known of its Iberian history. Wikipedia claims some reference implies there were silver mines back in the Roman days unless it is referring to the fact that the town minted its own coins. Under Arab control, it was stronghold against the kingdoms and cities of the Pyrenees. There was a great deal of fighting there during the Spanish Civil War.

Another source claiming to be based on a 1911 encyclopedia, _http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Huesca%2C_Spain_%28Capital%29, says that there was an "imposing" Gothic cathedral "enriched with fine carving" built from 1400 to 1515. Wikipedia says this gothic cathedral was begun in 1273 on the ruins of a mosque.

Both sources imply

[quote author=Wikipedia]Its pre-Roman Iberian name was Bolskan, the capital of the Ilergetes, in the north of Hispania Tarraconensis, on the road from Tarraco (modern Tarragona) and Ilerda (modern Lleida) to Caesaraugusta (modern Zaragoza) (Itin. Ant. pp. 391, 451), and under the jurisdiction of the last-named city. Pliny alone (iii. 3. s. 4) places the Oscenses in Vescitania, a district mentioned nowhere else. The city's name was rendered as Osca, and was a Roman colony, Urbs Victrix Osca, during the Roman Empire. Under the impetus of Quintus Sertorius, the renegade Roman and Iberian hero who made Osca his base, the city minted its own coinage and was the site of a prestigious school founded by Sertorius to educate young Iberians in Latin and Romanitas in general. We learn from Plutarch (Sert. c. 14) that it was a large town, and the place where Sertorius died. It is probably the town called Ileoscan (Ἰλεόσκαν) by Strabo, in an apparently corrupt passage (iii. p. 161; v. Ukert, vol. ii. pt. 1. p. 451.) It seems to have possessed silver mines (Livy xxxiv. 10, 46, xl. 43), unless the argentum Oscense here mentioned merely refers to the minted silver of the town. Florez, however (Med. ii. 520), has pointed out the impossibility of one place supplying such vast quantities of minted silver as we find recorded in ancient writers under the terms argentum Oscense, signatum Oscense; and is of the opinion that "Oscense" in these phrases means "Spanish", being a corruption of "Eus-cara". (Cf. Caes. B.C. i. 60; Vell. Pat. ii. 30; "Euskara", Basque for the Basque language.)

The fully Romanised city, with its forum in the Cathedral square, was made a municipium by decree of Augustus in 30 BCE. It was renamed Wasqah during the period of Arab domination, when the fortified city was a stronghold defending the frontier against the Christian counts and local kings of the Pyrenees. In 1094 Sancho Ramirez built the nearby Montearagon castle with the intention of laying siege to Wasqah; here he met his death by a stray arrow as he was reconnoitring the city's walls. It was conquered in 1096 by Peter I of Aragon.

During the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) the "Huesca Front" was the scene of some of the worst fighting between the Republicans and Franco's army. The city was besieged by the Republicans, George Orwell among them (see below) but never fell.[/quote]

[quote author=1911 encyclopedia]HUESCA (anc. Osca), the capital of the Spanish province of Huesca, 35 m. N.N.E. of Saragossa, on the Tardienta-HuescaJaca railway. Pop. (1900), 12,626. Huesca occupies a height near the right bank of the river Isuela, overlooking a broad and fertile plain. It is a very ancient city and bears many traces of its antiquity. The streets in the older part are narrow and crooked, though clean, and many of the houses witness by their size and style to its former magnificence. It is an episcopal see and has an imposing Gothic cathedral, begun in 1400, finished in 1515, and enriched with fine carving. In the same plaza is the old palace of the kings of Aragon, formerly given up for the use of the now closed Sertoria (the university), so named in memory of a school for the sons of native chiefs, founded at Huesca by Sertorius in 77 B.C. (Plut. Sent. 15). Among the other prominent buildings are the interesting parish churches (San Pedro, San Martin and San Juan), the episcopal palace, and various benevolent and religious foundations. Considerable attention is paid to public education, and there are not only several good primary schools, but schools for teachers, an institute, an ecclesiastical seminary, an artistic and archaeological museum, and an economic society. Huesca manufactures cloth, pottery, bricks and leather; but its chief trade is in wine and agricultural produce. The development of these industries caused an increase in the population which, owing to emigration to France, had declined by nearly 2000 between 1887 and 1897.

Strabo (iii. 161, where some editors read Ileosca) describes Osca as a town of the Ilergetes, and the scene of Sertorius's death in 72 B.C.; while Pliny places the Oscenses in regio Vescitania. Plutarch (loc. cit.) calls it a large city. Julius Caesar names it Vencedora; and the name by which Augustus knew it, Urbs victrix Osca, was stamped on its coins, and is still preserved on its arms. In the 8th century A.D. it was captured by the Moors; but in 1096 Pedro I. of Aragon regained it, after winning the decisive battle of Alcoraz. [/quote]
 

Tigersoap

The Living Force
Hi Laura,

Did you look into the Brussels area for symbols ? Maybe there would be things that may be of interest (or not)

The symbol of Brussels is St-George against the Dragon (and also the Fleur de lys)

Images :

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Saint_Michel_emblème_de_Bruxelles.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Rogier_van_der_Weyden_-_Saint_George_and_the_Dragon.jpg

There is a whole alchemical symbology around the "Grand place" of Brussels,
There is a book in French called "Lecture alchimique de la Grand-Place de Bruxelles" by Paul de St Hillaire (Prefaced by Patrick Rivière.), I suppose you know about this already.

There is a strong Masonic and Rosicrucian presence in Brussels and many buildings must bear the symbols attached to these secret societies.
I still have pictures of some places but I did know less at the time about the ramifications (There is a medusa head in the ceiling of the "Justice palace" (Palais de justice) for example o_O).

And there is also this link with pictures about Notre dame du Sablon
http://www.brusselspictures.com/churches/notre-dame-du-sablon/

This church is one of the finest Flamboyant buildings in Belgium. It replaced the chapel commissioned by the Guild of Crossbowmen in 1304. Legend has it that in 1348 the pious Beatrice Sodkens had a dream. The Virgin Mary wanted to thank the town of Brussels and in particular the Guild of Crossbowmen, for having erected a chapel in Her honor. Beatrice was told to go to Antwerp and steal the statue of the Virgin Mary which worked miracles. She gave it to the crossbowmen of Brussels who were the forerunners of the present-day police force.

I apologize if this is of no interest to you.
 

Pierre

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Some extra information about Huesca. There seems to be some connections between Huesca, black virgins, the holy grail, the Templars :

One French article relates how Huesca was a major source of funding for the Tempars in Spain

On November 28th 1129, Pierre Bernard and his wife, gave themselves, with their assets, to the Temple of Douzens, held by Hugues Rigaud and Raymond Bernard, who both were knights of the Temple. It’s logical to think that through this connection the Templars infiltrated into Spain, through Aragon. Father Cocheril says that Templars had no activity in Aragon and in Catalonia before the conquest of Monzon. This statement is a bit quick. Indeed, it’s proved that Aragon and Catalonia welcomed the Temple on December 17th 1129 through the diocese of Huesca. Donations lasted and the king pushed his vassals to welcome the poor knights of the Christ, in order to build, against the Maure tide, a genuine border along the limits of Castilla.


The involvement of the Champagne bishops for the development and the settling of the Temple houses was very important, at least during the first years. Except the archbishop from the north of this region, Troyes bishop, who heavily supported the knights deserves a special mention.

In Spain, the same movement occurred. Kings and bishops saw in the Templars a very useful help against the muslin invasion. Very often the Church is mentioned in the Spanish records, even in the ones coming from low nobility. Thus in a donation made on December 17th 1129, made by an individual called Miro, we find the bishop fo Huesca, Tarazona and Calahorra.


Gérard de Cède, in “The secret of the Cathars” mentions Huesca in connection with the Graal :

During the first centuries of our era, the Graal was located in Roma, then in Aragon (according to some sources, during the 3rd century, Pope Sixte II gave it Saint Laurentius who was from Huesca, according to other sources, these are the Wisigoth kings who took it and brought it there during the 5th century).

The Graal, confined in an ivory ark, that kept it away from people’s eyes, remained in San Juan de la Pena (Saint John of the rock) from 713 to 1134. Then it was brought to northern Pyrenees. It reappeared in San Juan de la Pena (located at the south-west of Jaca, in Huesca) only after the crusade against the Cathars. The real Graal transited through the Montesinos cave and the river island of Baratavia, two places mentioned in Cervantes “Don Quixote”

Like in the Tenerife, Canary islands, we also find a black virgin in Huesca : Our Lady of Torreciudad.
 

dantem

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Laurel said:
One interesting thing I find in regard to tears is this:

[...] This milk of Magnesia is perhaps somewhat like the metallic mercury, in that it does not wet hands, yet it is something altogether more ethereal. It is the priceless water which spurts from the fountain of Holmat.

Holmat seems to be a Moroccan name, but I'm not sure. But in the Mysteres des Cathedrales, Fulcanelli tells us that the fountain Holmat is found in the spring of Modhallam, the Dark and Gloomy Sea, and Bahr Al Modhallam in arabic is the Atlantic Ocean. So the Canary Islands came to mind.

Also...

[...] The manuscripts and books of the alchemists tell us that the blood and water of the virgin matter are purified, and that one of the names for this purified alchemical woman is Magnesia.

That is interesting, associating Magnesia to an alchemical woman.

She is the magnet-woman who draws to her for nourishment those Sons of Man who do not find the world material sufficient, and wish to become the Sons of God, or initiates

Now this Magnesia could be another tricky word, maybe a composite one, like Mag-nesia.

From google's cache http://tinyurl.com/3tgugg

THE HELLENIC ORIGIN OF THE ARAUCANS OF CHILE

All the above island complexes have compound Greek names: “Indo-nesia”, “Micro-nesia”, “Mela-nesia”, “Poly-nesia”…The second word all of them consist of is nesia, meaning in Greek “island complex”, while the first one denotes a main property of these islands or their inhabitants. These names were not given by the navigators of the West but they had already been given.

So is this Mag-nesia the 'Islands of Mag' or Canary Islands here?
 

Johnno

The Living Force
dantem said:
Laurel said:
One interesting thing I find in regard to tears is this:

[...] This milk of Magnesia is perhaps somewhat like the metallic mercury, in that it does not wet hands, yet it is something altogether more ethereal. It is the priceless water which spurts from the fountain of Holmat.

Holmat seems to be a Moroccan name, but I'm not sure. But in the Mysteres des Cathedrales, Fulcanelli tells us that the fountain Holmat is found in the spring of Modhallam, the Dark and Gloomy Sea, and Bahr Al Modhallam in arabic is the Atlantic Ocean. So the Canary Islands came to mind.

I'd say Holmaat would be from the etymology of Hol Cave or dark place and mat = Mother.

So we have the black or dark mother again!

Diiferent variation on Mother here

http://open-dictionary.com/Mother


Etymology of Hol-

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/baltet&text_number=+198&root=config


Proto-Germanic: *xula-

Meaning: hole

IE etymology:

Gothic: hulundi f. (jō) `cave'

Old Norse: hol n. `Höhle, Loch', hol-r `hohl'

Norwegian: hol adj.; hol sbs.

Old Swedish: hol adj.

Swedish: hɔl sbs.

Danish: hul adj., sbs.

Old English: hol, -es n. `hole'; hol `hollow', holh (holg), -es n. `hollow, cavity, hole'

English: hole, hollow

Old Frisian: hol adj.; hol

Old Saxon: hol adj.; hol

Middle Dutch: hol adj.; hol `holte, inham, gat; bedding; hol, grot, spelonk'

Dutch: hol adj.; hol

Old High German: hol adj. (8.Jh.); hol

Middle High German: hol 'ausgehöhlt, hohl; klanglos'; hol st. n., m. 'höhle, höhlung, loch, vertiefung; öffnung'

German: hohl

There again Fulcanelli writes of Matthew, the Greek roots of this name and his representation of Matthew and science on page 171 of Mystery of the Cathedrals.

So perhaps it could be a "cave of science" :)

And to throw in more confusion, keep in mind that Ma'at was the Egyptian goddess of justice ,law and truth. :P
 

mamadrama

The Living Force
Johnno said:
Etymology of Hol-

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/baltet&text_number=+198&root=config

Quote
Proto-Germanic: *xula-

Meaning: hole

IE etymology:

Gothic: hulundi f. (jō) `cave'

Old Norse: hol n. `Höhle, Loch', hol-r `hohl'

Norwegian: hol adj.; hol sbs.

Old Swedish: hol adj.

Swedish: hɔl sbs.

Danish: hul adj., sbs.

Old English: hol, -es n. `hole'; hol `hollow', holh (holg), -es n. `hollow, cavity, hole'

English: hole, hollow

Old Frisian: hol adj.; hol

Old Saxon: hol adj.; hol

Middle Dutch: hol adj.; hol `holte, inham, gat; bedding; hol, grot, spelonk'

Dutch: hol adj.; hol

Old High German: hol adj. (8.Jh.); hol

Middle High German: hol 'ausgehöhlt, hohl; klanglos'; hol st. n., m. 'höhle, höhlung, loch, vertiefung; öffnung'

German: hohl

This reminds me of Mother Holle from Grimm's Fairy Tales (but please don't tell anart I'm looking at the fairies again ;) )

Mother Holle

Land of Origin: Germany.
Other Origins: Many faeries in the world enjoy spinning.
Other Names: None known.
Element: Earth.
Appearance and Temperament:
Mother Holle is an older woman, but not elderly. Her hair is long and black and she wears a dark green robe. There is only one of her and she is neither good nor evil, but dispenses justice fairly as she sees fit.
Lore:
Mother Holle was probably once a German Goddess, and in her legends we can still see the blurred images of both Mother and Crone. Most of what we know about her comes to us through German folk tales, the most well-known being "Mother Holle and the Two Sisters."

Mother Holle spends her days at her spinning wheel, which also relates her to the Goddess who, in some cultures, was thought to have created the world from her wheel. She gives advice when asked and can instantly divine the future. She rewards those who are industrious, especially while in her service. gold is her most frequent form of payment, which again may be a metaphor for spiritual attainment. She is most disposed to aiding young women.

To those who do her bidding she gives rewards and an open invitation to visit her world, which exists in a verdant meadow at the bottom of a wishing well. In the above-mentioned faery tale, one of the sisters stumbles into Mother Holle's world when she falls into a well. In this case the well functions as a birth-canal image, and offers new life (an image of rebirth) to those who will take her advice. She is stern but not mean, and is wise like the Crone Goddess.

Mother Holle likes a well-made bed, and this is one of the tasks she is likely to ask of a human petitioner. When one shakes out the huge feather tick, white down flies everywhere and covers everything. This image is so pervasive that in the popular mind of the German people that when it snows they are still heard to say, "Mother Holle is making her bed."

_http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4611/fairyM.html#Mother%20Holle

And from Wikipedia:

Mother Hulda

Mother Hulda is a German fairy tale collected by the Brothers Grimm and first published in 1812 as part of Children's and Household Tales. It was originally known as Frau Holle and is tale number 24.[1]

Synopsis
Mother Hulda tells the tale of a rich widow and her daughter and step-daughter. The widow favored her biological daughter, allowing her to become spoiled and idle, while her step-daughter was left to do all the work. Every day the stepdaughter would sit outside the cottage and spin beside the well. One day she pricked her finger on the point of the spindle. Leaning over the well to wash the blood away, the spindle fell from her hand and sank out of sight. The stepdaughter feared that she would be punished for losing the spindle, and in a panic she leapt into the well after it. To her surprise, the girl found herself in the other world of Hulda, who kept her as maidservant for several weeks. Hulda was so impressed by the girl's meekness and industry she sent her back to her family, with an apron full of gold.

The mother, thinking that her own daughter should have received the gold, sent the lazy daughter down the well to work for Mother Hulda. Copying her sister, the lazy daughter bloodied her finger and leaped into the well. But Hulda reproved her idle nature by sending her home covered with pitch.


[edit] Origins
The exact origin of Mother Hulda is difficult to trace but it is thought that the character originated in Norse mythology, where she is associated with a number of different deities including Frigg and Hel; also in German, there is an etymologic connection between the name Holle, the name Hel, and the word for hell (Hölle).

Hel is the queen of Hel, the Norse underworld, and described in Norse mythology as a half-dead, half alive monster, but in German mythology she was viewed with some beneficence, as a more gentle form of death and transformation. In this context, Mother Hulda is connected with Hertha, the goddess of peace and fertility, otherwise known as Hlodyn in the Edda. Hlodyn herself was more commonly referred to as Jord, the personification of the primitive, unpopulated, and uncultivated Earth. She is one of the wives of the chief god Odin and the mother of the god Thor. Since the term mother goddess is used interchangeably in various texts across Europe it is possible that some confusion exists over the exact status of Jord and Frigg in this context.

In early Germanic mythology however, Hulda was known as the goddess of marriage. She was a beneficent deity, the patroness and guardian of all maidens.

Marija Gimbutas[2] names Hulda (or Holda, Holla, Holle) as having originally been an ancient Germanic supreme goddess who predates most of the German pantheon, including deities such as Odin, Thor, Freya and Loki, continuing traditions of pre-Indo-European Neolithic Europe.

When Christianity slowly replaced Scandinavian paganism during the early Middle Ages, much of the old customs were gradually lost or assimilated into Catholic tradition. By the end of the High Middle Ages, Scandinavian paganism was almost completely marginalized and blended into rural folklore, in which the character of Mother Hulda eventually survived.

In Germanic Pre-Christian folklore, Hulda, Holda, Holle and Holla were all names to denote a single Goddess. One who rules the weather; sunshine, snow and rain. Hulda is also related to the Germanic figure of Perchta. She dwells at the bottom of a well, rides a wagon, and first taught the craft of making linen from flax. Hulda is the goddess to whom children who died as infants go, and alternatively known as both the Dark Grandmother and the White Lady, elements which are more typically associated with the Grimm's fairy tale as well. Her connection to the spirit world through the magic of spinning and weaving has associated her with witchcraft in Catholic German folklore.

The legend itself, as it was eventually passed to the Grimm Brothers, originates from oral traditions in Central Germany in what is now known as Hesse. It was told to them by Henriette Dorothea Wild (whom Wilhelm Grimm married in 1825.) with more details added in the second edition (1819). It is still common expression in Hesse to say "Hulda is making her bed" when it is snowing, that is, she shakes her bed and out comes snow from heaven!


A steep rock near the city of Hilgerhausen even bears the name "Hollestein", meaning "Stone of Hulda".
 
CAVE...also in its most esoteric sense is "supposed" to refer to the "Third Ventricle" of the brain, and more specifically the area of the Pineal Gland which is also the seat of Daath (or Doorway to Elsewhere) in Cabalistic Mysticism. When Plato speaks of Caves, as he often did in his Dialogues, it was a "veiled" way of talking about Outer caves, hiding the truly Sacred Cave within man's own head centers. In this inner cave it is said that the True Work of Alchemy is completed...AFAIK.
 

Approaching Infinity

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NORDIC HEALER said:
CAVE...also in its most esoteric sense is "supposed" to refers to the "Third Ventricle" of the brain, and more specifically the area of the Pineal Gland which is also the seat of Daath (or Doorway to Elsewhere) in Cabalistic Mysticism.

I'm curious as to the source of the above information. Where is this link between "cave" and the pineal gland mentioned? I can see how a cave can represent the mind in a typical allegorical sense (just as the alchemical temenos is a good representation of the developing "inner psychic environment" that accompanies real development), but the above seems kind of reaching to me.
 

Johnno

The Living Force
Also came across this with the feminine principle being described as a valley. This time from the Tao Te Ching Chapter 6


The valley spirit, undying
Is called the Mystic Female

The gate of the Mystic Female
Is called the root of Heaven and Earth

It flows continuously, barely perceptible
Utilize it; it is never exhausted
 
Approaching Infinity wrote
I'm curious as to the source of the above information. Where is this link between "cave" and the pineal gland mentioned? I can see how a cave can represent the mind in a typical allegorical sense (just as the alchemical temenos is a good representation of the developing "inner psychic environment" that accompanies real development), but the above seems kind of reaching to me.

Sorry for the delay but I have had some very critical situations going on within my home involving what I believe to be Psychopath.

Thank you for questioning my source and I did look for the source book that I originally got this info from, which was a large text book for a course I took called The Nature Of the Soul. The author of this book is also uncertain, and (if I recall) was purposely kept obscure so as not to draw attention to the writer but rather the material.

About half of my books are packed away right now, and even though I have a master list of what is supposedly in each numbered box, for some reason this book did not show up. I did do a brief look on the internet and found some connections to the same general idea as I originally suggested (the connection between Plato's Cave and the Pineal/Pituitary Gland). But of course it could all be dysinfo. I was just putting out something I had been taught quite a while ago. I don't want to present anything more at this time until I have more time to really dig into the subject and present something with more substance. Right now I am fighting to keep my home.
 

dantem

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Found a book online that may be of interest:

The Two Babylons or The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife
by the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop

_http://www.acts1711.com/twobabylons.pdf

Seems to be filled up with with biblical gloss and some as yet unclear (to me...) stands on women in general. The text is very 'dense' and haven't had the time to read it carefully by now.

Hislop's bio from wiki:

Alexander Hislop (Born at Duns, Berwickshire, 1807; died Arbroath, 13 March 1865) was a Free Church of Scotland minister famous for his outspoken criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church. He was the son of Stephen Hislop (died 1837), a mason by occupation and an elder of the Relief Church. Alexander's brother was also named Stephen Hislop (lived 1817–1863) and became well known in his time as a missionary to India and a naturalist.

Alexander was for a time parish schoolmaster of Wick, Caithness. In 1831 he married Jane Pearson. He was for a time editor of the Scottish Guardian newspaper. As a probationer he joined the Free Church of Scotland at the Disruption of 1843. He was ordained in 1844 at the East Free Church, Arbroath, where he became senior minister in 1864. He died of a paralytic stroke the next year after being ill for about two years.

Hislop's book review from wiki:

The Two Babylons

This book was initially published in 1853 as a pamphlet, then greatly revised and expanded and released as a book in 1858. Hislop's work has been described as conspiracy theory propoganda which mixed "sketchy knowledge of Middle Eastern antiquity with a vivid immagination."[1]

He claimed the Roman Catholic Church was a Babylonian mystery cult, and pagan, whereas Protestants worshipped the true Jesus and the true God. He contended that Roman Catholic religious practices are actually pagan practices grafted onto true Christianity during the reign of Constantine. At this point, he alleged, the merger between the Roman state religion and its adoration of the mother and child was transferred to Christianity, merging Christian characters with pagan mythology. The Goddess was renamed Mary, and Jesus was the renamed Jupiter-Puer, or "Jupiter the Boy".

Hislop's theory was that the goddess, in Rome called Venus or Fortuna, was the Roman name of the more ancient Babylonian cult of Ishtar, whose origins began with a blonde-haired and blue-eyed woman named Semiramis.

According to Hislop, Semiramis was an exceedingly beautiful woman, who gave birth to a son named Tammuz, was instrumental as the queen, and wife of Nimrod the founder of Babylon, and its religion, complete with a pseudo-Virgin Birth. This he called a foreshadowing of the birth of Christ, prompted by Satan. Later, Nimrod was killed, and Semiramis, pregnant with his child, claimed the child was Nimrod reborn.

Hislop claimed that the cult and worship of Semiramis spread globally, her name changing with the culture. In Egypt she was Isis, in Greece and Rome she was called Venus, Diana, Athena, and a host of other names, but was always prayed to and central to the faith which was based on Babylonian mystery religion.

Then, according to Hislop, Constantine, though claiming to convert to Christianity, remained pagan but renamed the gods and goddesses with Christian names to merge the two faiths for his political advantage, under Satan's guidance.

Anyway, that's what caught my attention from the book's index. Some clues about the Madonna and Child iconography:

Section II. The Mother and Child, and the Original of the Child (14k)
Sub-Section I. The Child in Assyria (57k)
Sub-Section II. The Child in Egypt (22k)
Sub-Section III. The Child in Greece (28k)
Sub-Section IV. The Death of the Child (10k)
Sub-Section V. The Deification of the Child (61k)
Section III. The Mother of the Child (73k)

An excerpt:

Chapter II Section II Sub-Section I The Child in Assyria

The original of that mother, so widely worshipped, there is reason to believe, was Semiramis, * already referred to, who, it is well known, was worshipped by the
Babylonians, and other eastern nations, and that under the name of Rhea, the great Goddess "Mother."

* Sir H. Rawlinson having found evidence at Nineveh, of the existence of a Semiramis about six or seven centuries before the Christian era, seems inclined to regard her as the only Semiramis that ever existed. But this is subversive of all history. The fact that there was a Semiramis in the primeval ages of the world, is beyond all doubt, although some of the exploits of the latter queen have evidently been attributed to her predecessor. Mr. Layard dissents from Sir. H. Rawlinson's opinion.

It was from the son, however, that she derived all her glory and her claims to deification. That son, though represented as a child in his mother's arms, was a person of great stature and immense bodily powers, as well as most fascinating manners. In Scripture he is referred to (Eze 8:14) under the name of Tammuz, but he is commonly known among classical writers under the name of Bacchus, that is, "The Lamented one." *

* From Bakhah "to weep" or "lament." Among the Phoenicians, says Hesychius, "Bacchos means weeping." As the women wept for Tammuz, so did they for Bacchus.

To the ordinary reader the name of Bacchus suggests nothing more than revelry and drunkenness, but it is now well known, that amid all the abominations that attended his orgies, their grand design was professedly "the purification of souls," and that from the guilt and defilement of sin. This lamented one, exhibited and adored as a little child in his mother's arms, seems, in point of fact, to have been the husband of Semiramis, whose name, Ninus, by which he is commonly known in classical history, literally signified "The Son." As Semiramis, the wife, was worshipped as Rhea, whose grand distinguishing character was that of the great goddess "Mother," * the conjunction with her of her husband, under the name of Ninus, or "The Son," was sufficient to originate the peculiar worship of the "Mother and Son," so extensively diffused among the nations of antiquity; and this, no doubt, is the explanation of the fact which has so much puzzled the inquirers into ancient history, that Ninus is sometimes called the husband, and sometimes the son of Semiramis.

* As such Rhea was called by the Greeks, Ammas. Ammas is evidently the Greek form of the Chaldee Ama, "Mother."

This also accounts for the origin of the very same confusion of relationship between Isis and Osiris, the mother and child of the Egyptians; for as Bunsen shows, Osiris was represented in Egypt as at once the son and husband of his mother; and actually bore, as one of his titles of dignity and honour, the name "Husband of the Mother." * This still further casts light on the fact already noticed, that the Indian God Iswara is represented as a babe at the breast of his own wife Isi, or Parvati.

* BUNSEN. It may be observed that this very name "Husband of the Mother," given to Osiris, seems even at this day to be in common use among ourselves, although there is not the least suspicion of the meaning of the term, or whence it has come. Herodotus mentions that when in Egypt, he was astonished to hear the very same mournful but ravishing "Song of Linus," sung by the Egyptians (although under another name), which he had been accustomed to hear in his own native land of Greece. Linus was the same god as the Bacchus of Greece, or Osiris of Egypt; for Homer introduces a boy singing the song of Linus, while the vintage is going on (Ilias), and the Scholiast says that this son was sung in memory of Linus, who was torn in pieces by dogs. The epithet "dogs," applied to those who tore Linus in pieces, is evidently used in a mystical sense, and it will afterwards been seen how thoroughly the other name by which he is known--Narcissus--identifies him with the Greek Bacchus and Egyptian Osiris.

In some places in Egypt, for the song of Linus or Osiris, a peculiar melody seems to have been used. Savary says that, in the temple of Abydos, "the priest repeated the seven vowels in the form of hymns, and that musicians were forbid to enter it." (Letters) Strabo, whom Savary refers to, calls the god of that temple Memnon, but we learn from Wilkinson that Osiris was the great god of Abydos, whence it is evident that Memnon and Osiris were only different names of the same divinity. Now the name of Linus or Osiris, as the "husband of his mother," in Egypt, was Kamut (BUNSEN). When Gregory the Great introduced into the Church of Rome what are now called the Gregorian Chants, he got them from the Chaldean mysteries, which had long been established in Rome; for the Roman Catholic priest, Eustace, admits that these chants were largely composed of "Lydian and Phrygian tunes" (Classical Tour), Lydia and Phrygia being among the chief seats in later times of those mysteries, of which the Egyptian mysteries were only a branch.

These tunes were sacred--the music of the great god, and in introducing them Gregory introduced the music of Kamut. And thus, to all appearance, has it come to pass, that the name of Osiris or Kamut, "the husband of the mother," is in every-day use among ourselves as the name of the musical scale; for what is the melody of Osiris, consisting of the "seven vowels" formed into a hymn, but--the Gamut?

Now, this Ninus, or "Son," borne in the arms of the Babylonian Madonna, is so described as very clearly to identify him with Nimrod. "Ninus, king of the Assyrians," * says Trogus Pompeius, epitomised by Justin, "first of all changed the contented moderation of the ancient manners, incited by a new passion, the desire of conquest. He was the first who carried on war against his neighbours, and he conquered all nations from Assyria to Lybia, as they were yet unacquainted with the arts of war." [...]

FWIW.
 

Aeneas

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Black Swan said:
There is a dialogue between Hedsel and a woman he met at Chartres about the Black Madonna:

"Why are you in Chartres, Latona?"
"I'm here to see the Black Virgin..."
"The smell of the grave..." She was quoting from Fulcanelli. (Morien, quoted by Fulcanelli in a brief mention of La Clef du Cabinet hermetique, says of the black matter used in the alchemical process of refinement that it must show some acidity and have a 'certain smell of the grave.')
Hesel asks, "Do you think the Virgin was an Isis? Or was she something else?"
"I don't know. It is enough for me that the cathedral protects a pagan goddess - and that she is black...Do you know anything about the Black Virgins?"
"Fulcanelli says they bear the inscription, "To the Virgin about to give birth."
"Fulcanelli is right. Some do have those words inscribed on the socles." ( the inscription is Virgini pariturae)
"Fulcanelli said that the Black Virgin was also called the Mother of God, the great idea."
"Matri deum, magnae ideae. Difficult to translate, as idea is a play on the feminine for goddess, dea."

Highlighting the above is just to bring attention to a poem by Marguerite de Navarre that Thorbiorn made in a travel log that he posted some days ago, where Marguerite de Navarre in the poem said that she was the mother of God. Interesting because of Marguerite de Navarre's strong link to the Auch Cathedral that was dedicated to the Black Virgin. The excerpt from the other thread is:
thorbiorn said:
Most of Marguerite's poems and letters have not yet been translated into English, but enough is available to show the reader a fuller picture of the witty author of the Heptameron.
[From Shell's modernized version, Marguerite's opening, "To the Reader":]
If thou dost read this whole work, behold rather the matter and excuse the speech, considering it is the work of a woman which has in her neither science nor knowledge but a desire that each one might see what the gift of God doth when it pleaseth Him to justify the heart of a man. [p.113]
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"And now I can call thee son, father, spouse, and brother."
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[The major theme of Miroir is the multiple relationship of the human with God:]
Thou hast done so much for me, and yet art Thou not content to have forgiven me my sins, but also given unto me the right gracious gift of grace. For it should suffice me (I coming out of such a danger) to be ordered like a stranger; but Thou dost handle my soul (if so I durst say) as a mother, daughter, sister, and wife. [p.117]
Now, my Lord, if Thou be my father, may I think that I am Thy mother? For I cannot perceive how I should conceive Thee, which hast created me. But Thou didst satisfy my doubt when in preaching (stretching forth Thy hands) Thou didst say: "Those that shall do the will of My Father, they are my brethren and mother."
I believe then... that through love I have begotten Thee. Therefore without any fear will I take upon me the name of a mother: Mother of God. O sweet virgin Mary, I beseech thee be not sorry that I take up such a title.... For thou art His corporeal mother and also (through faith) His spiritual mother. Then I (following thy faith with humility) am His spiritual mother. [pp.120-121]
Now I have Thee, my father, for the defense of the foolishness of my long youth. Now have I Thee, my brother, to succor my sorrows wherein I find no end. Now have I Thee, my son, for the only stay of my feeble age. Now have I Thee, true and faithful husband, for the satisfying of my whole heart and mind. [p.134]
 
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