i think that the conversations gone way off topic. I find the point that in fact we are dealing with a much more sinister problem than some might otherwsaie suspect to be key in defeating whats going on.
Some of the things that chris has to say in my mind are cognicentric from the angle of his particular abuse. I tend to think of everything he has to say with both an extra grain of salt, and an added depth of seriousness.
We are living in a modern world thats a lie; a history thats HIS STORY written by conquerers about reality as suits them.
We are living in a world as created for us by hypnotists and decievers. We are living in the world of a very real
"matrix."
I hope that we can face this reality squarely, and not evade it, and not circumnavigate around facing it.
Heres my own work coming from a diferent angle than chrises but more or less on the same subject.
1. Our society is based on Christian morality and ethics, which is anti intellectual, and anti"supernatural."
The whole point of christianity is to keep people from having genuine spiritual experiences so that those people can be controlled.
The whole point of Christianity is to keep people inside a mental cage, keep them dull and slow, and beholden to the Church. The whole point of Christianity is to make people into sheep; to herd people against their better interests away from the possibility of having genuine spiritual experience. If you could talk to god, you would usurp the churches authority over you. The whole point of christianity is to keep people in a cage of "Faith" and "Belief." They demand merely that you believe in their propaganda and lies, and provide no access to actual spiritual reality. If you follow their advice on spiritual matters, you will demonize the reptilian mind and thus end up inside an eternal war inside the psyche with yourself.
2. Atheism, Agnosticism, Satanism, New Age, And Anarchism are all easy rebellions in a hatbox that are designed to give people prescribed means and thought patterns by which to rebel against christianity, while still caging them in the box of thinking other peoples thoughts, and while still caging them in the box of not having actual spiritual experiences, and caging them in the box of not having access
to altered states of consciousness. Each of these paradigms appeals to people with different temperments, but each of them is really just the same psychological sentiment; "Christianity is bogus, so rebel." The problem is that the rebellion is thus contained and made harmless by paradigms which fail to disclose that they are really just branches of Christianity. Atheism is just Another type of Christianity;
The Christians who don't believe in God. They make all the same assumptions, and they use all the same false dualities. They are proponents of the same morality, and the same "belief" based system of thinking. Atheism denies that god exists and manages to pull this off because due to christianity, most people haven't experienced god. But Atheism is just a reversal; a belief in not believing. All of these paradigm are just Christianity in photo negative; an experiment in double think; simply reversing a belief system and turning it inside out and then pretending that its not the same thing that you started with.
3. Most other paradigms are infiltrated. The New Age movement is cointelpro operated and authored. They use infiltrators posing as legitamate participants to conquer and divide within. Wicca, the Hippie movement, and American Versions of Budhism all suffer from being
infiltrated and watered down so that they don't work and don't deliver the actual access to altered states of consciousness, or personal psychological liberty. The main and most dominant feature of this is that the one thing they will attempt to prevent at all costs is for anybody to have a genuine spiritual experience. If people start experiencing God or altered states of consciousness, they will very quickly realize that they hve been misled and controlled, and their capacity to remain controlled will rapidly evaporate. Spirituality is thus used by the vampyres
and luxocrats as a means to control the masses, as a way to program people and control mob movements.
4. This includes the modern sciences, which would be all of them much further along were it not for the intentional propaganda and lies and political mucking around that is done to keep people from gaining momentum with science knowledge. Modern psychology could deliver on the promise to build a functional spiritual practice, but its infiltrated and scattered and turned into a bickerfest instead of putting all of the peices of the puzzle together, Modern Psychology is really about 50 white men, their ideas, a few token other people, their ideas, and the bickering that ensues as people try to use theories as politicized excuses for more social control, esp psychiatry, which is hellbent on drugging people to keep them stupid. All of the sciences are effected, even the hard sciences. We would have hovercars and soft nuclear power and all sorts of free energy devices and all kinds of technologies were it not for the fact that the luxocrats control technology so that it benefits keeping them rich. Technologies which would empower individuals are hidden, destroyed, or obfuscated. Free energy devices are patents that are bought up by the oil industry (usually under serious pressure) and which are then not implemented.
5. Despite all of this, acheiving real spiritual experiences is actually very simple if you get your facts straight. The simple use of modern psychologies tools can bypass all the bickering created by religions, and its very easy if you know what you are looking at to apply modern psychology to get reproducable results. The simple formulae to follow is this;
A; There are four main states of consciousness when measured according to brainwaves.
B; Each of these states of consciousness can be further subdivided into two main types; sleeping and waking states.
C; Most people will only ever experience while awake only one brainwave state.
D; All four types of brainwaves are going on all the time. What state you are in depends mostly on which brainwave type is dominant,
and which areas of the brain are operational. A lot of trickery goes on getting people into alleged altered states of consciousness when they are actually still in a beta state but with increased activity of the other types of brainwaves. Most hoaxes are based on not telling you the difference between simply adding two brainwave patterns together, and actually changing state.
E; Beta Brainwaves are the ones responsible for waking states of consciousness.
F; Alpha, Delta, And Theta brainwave states are mostly only ever experienced by people who are asleep. Spiritual life is really about acheiveing waking versions of alpha, delta, and theta brainwave states.
G; It is next to impossible to acheive waking delta states without first learning to acheive waking alpha states, and next to impossible to acheive waking theta states without first acheiving waking delta states. One has to learn to crawl, then walk, then run, each level builds skills which enable and empower exploration at the next level.
6. New age materials are intentional misinformation, and a lot of that kind of information if followed will yeild no results, or bad results.
For every good reality model or schema out there, there are five more that were designed just to flood the market and make it harder to get
anywhere. Most alleged Psychics are fakers, frauds, and Charlatans. Most alleged "Channelers" are just selling books with a cheap gimmick.
7. The most useful paradigms other than modern psychology to help one get anywhere useful come from genuine spiritual paths of shamanistic societies. Wicce, Wicca, Stregheria, Druidism, Huna, Taoism, Budhism are all examples of religions which can work to help a person achieve genuine spiritual experiences. However, each of these paradigms has also been infiltrated by propaganda warriors who water thigns down, give disinfo and lies, and who in general try to make the paradigm useless for most people. Most western practicioners of these shamanistic paths thus still get no traction from their efforts because they don't know how to sort the good from the bad.
tribes.tribe.net/psychonau...fcc518e43e
www.indiana.edu/~p1013447/...roxdist.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distal_stimulus
people.csail.mit.edu/fredo/A...ion6.pdf
search.yahoo.com/search
Prometheus said: "Our society is based on Christian morality and ethics, which is anti intellectual, and anti"supernatural." The whole point of christianity is to keep people from having genuine spiritual experiences so that those people can be controlled."
While I'm no fan of Christianity, I think this analysis is far too simplistic.
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okay, but i wouldn't call this an analysis, more like a table of contents. Want me to inflate any part of it for you?
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While certain Christian strands can be seen as anti-intellectual, others (particularly the scholasticism of Aquinas, et al) could be described as over-intellectual, perhaps emphasizing rationality at the expense of mystical experience. The Protestant reformers carried this trend further and many of them emphasized the role of reason in interpreting scripture.
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the intellect can serve holding a pardigm togther against the evidence, or it can serve breaking down the old paradigm with the new
stuff. It can't generally do both.
The question is not whether or not the intellect is used, but whether or not it is used wisely and in a way that unlocks the human potentiate, or in a way that shuts down the human potentiate.
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I would also say that, in these typical western discussions of Christianity, the experience of the Eastern churches (Eastern Orthodox, Non-Chalcedonian, Assyrian) is ignored, when in fact these churches can provide a very different glimpse of what Christianity is capable of. The problem is, many modern anti-Christian critics actually know very little about Christianity.
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Please notice my other threads. I'm not opposed to finding some good amongst the bad, and i am interested to hear about the differences,
and to draw maps of them together. I'm sure there are good examples of moder christianity; I'd name mormonism and Jehovahs witnesses as two examples that have some stuff right. Then again, both suffer from their own versions of short sightedness also.
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I would not agree that Christianity keeps people from "genuine spiritual experiences", rather, like all religions, it restricts its followers to particular ~kinds~ of spiritual experience.
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I'm sorry, but this comes down to some simple differences between me and you owing partly to being an aspie and partly to being a shaman. I live in multiple worlds. Its no a theory or an abstraction, i meet the sheeple in only one of many worlds, and they are asleep in the rest.
My experience is that of preometheus literally. I have new connections which knit together more than most people ever seem to realize.
I am what cuts the edge of the cutting edge of the movement foreward on the evolutionary curve upward trying to get them to climb that tree of life, solve the goblin riddle, and walk that labyrinthe.
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I dare you to read the Philokalia or the writings of Dionysius the Areopagite and come away still saying that Christianity is designed to keep people from spiritual experiences.
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The efforts of some are the efforts of good people. When we speak about whole paradigms we must give right exception to those instances where there are real differences. Its not fair to overgeneralize. Some people manage to have a spiritual life despite participating in a bad paradigm. Its not the paradigm thats making it, its the person running that path.
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But again, there are only certain experiences which are considered valid in Christianity, just as Buddhism and Taoism have sets of spiritual experiences which they emphasize and others that they reject.
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Carlos castendeda and the shamans would point out that westernism creates a double barrier between the ego mind and the subconscious self which also accesses the subliminal senses, particularly the bodies own sense of magnetic feilds, particularly its own.
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"Atheism, Agnosticism, Satanism, New Age, And Anarchism are all easy rebellions in a hatbox..."
It's rather odd that you lump anarchism in with these others. Anarchism is a modern social and political movement which may have particular anti-clerical manifestations but which generally has little to do with specifically rejecting Christianity.
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okay, its the one of the things that doesn't fit with the rest.
I'm lumping it in because its what i'm running into. The cheif problem with anarchism is that like "lord of the flies" suggests etc; we will only regress back to the law of dthe jungle without some kind of rules; And as population dense as we are, that would mean global super civil war if it ever went down that way. You can't get there that way. Its a noble idea with a disaster ending if you take the direct route. Hyphenated anarachy can work in theory, but you ahve to change the psychology of the population to favor cooperation enough to hold the thing together. I keep telling the local anarchy enthusiasts. They keep not getting it.
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Wicca is not a "genuine spiritual path of shamanistic societies," it's a modern new age movement with "old religion" pretensions.
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you simply don't know what you are talking about, and the subject is one well covered by enormous propaganda efforts.
its amusing to see the propaganda line, but, i have a third degree finished in a stregheria fam trad, i know the feild.
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I agree with you on the infiltration of western forms of Buddhism and other Asian religions. What is infiltrating them? It is the commodifying tendency of modern society, which "breaks down every Chinese wall".
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Yes, that is one strong diving causal force in the collective psyche.
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There's a lot of money to be made with chakra workshops, Thich Nhat Hanh rehashes and Little Buddha boxes. It can't be blamed on Christianity, as Christianity has also suffered greatly from this process. Perhaps we could blame the Protestants for paving the way for capitalism.
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You can't seperate capitalism from christianity; both are the direct product of feudalism as entropy ensues over social levels of evoluitionary time.
Theres a reason why yeshua tipped over the money changing tables at the temple, and a reason why church shouldn't get involved in money. Goods and services yes, but never cash. Yeshua was right about one thing. "it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."
I'd translate modernly; maya is attachment to materialist things. Transcendence is seeing the far end of the up side of materialist
simplicity; not being rich because being rich requires there to be poor.
we live in a caste system implemented by the church state.
Its based on a god that entitles us to conquer you and taxes.
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But I wouldn't look back nostalgically at the "traditional" practices. All of the world religions, Buddhism included, have been involved in great oppression.
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yes, its sort of like the flower that is always chopped down to bait traps. No religious movement ever really survives being politicized. Politics is politics and religion is religion; the two are both important, but never the twain should meet.
Politics corrupts religion perfectly; and it always has.
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The religions are, as the Surrealists say, "brutal colonizers of the marvelous." This means they have some of the Marvelous in them, but
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i agree, and this is why my threads in the crossroads of religion tribe include a quest for the gems of christianity.
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they wall it off so followers can't find anymore. This constitutes the inherently anti-poetic character of religions.
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right.
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The "brain wave" reductionism you cite is really just another form of banality trivializing real spirituality into a set of dull psychological categories.
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It could be that, but, i can detail it. Give it a chance.
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Christian mystics have beheld the light of Tabor; Taoist adepts have been kissed by jade women; shamans have dived into the underworld or explored the sky realms or the sea- none of these are reduceable to brain waves.
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the human body has four operational states. You only know how to be awake in one.
Each has a different set of ways of juggling the relationship between conscious and sub conscious mind;
each brainwave type is a different relationship model for the brodmanns brain areas.
I'm not saying anything more than that if you get into these states, you see stuff. I happen to think the stuff i see is a lot more than just
the state itself, but i'm trying to make an argument rational enough to make sense to atheists and deists simultaneously.
What i have to offer is actually irrelevant to the question of religion or religious affiliation. It is simply the start of psychonautics; real self analysis from the perspective of an engineer and a lingua code writer. What kind of software do you need to have to enjoy the benefits of all four operating conditions? Thats the only question that really matters. Because it LEADS to everything in the spiritual universe;
but it doesn't require faith, it doesn't require belief it only requires work to get there that way.
I appreciate anything that helps me to break down the wall
made up with the bricks of false doctrines.
The "systems" are exactly what we all have to be freed from. And realize our knowledge is not what gives us our faith.
There are things that lie beyond logic and reason....at the core of every one of us.
agree mostly. it's like my favorite zen-buddhist maxim.
'my finger is not the moon'
people get too often confuse the path with the paradise.
there are many ways to get there but you can't follow someone else's map
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search.yahoo.com/search
THE NEW AMERICAN CLASS SYSTEM - Giga-billionaires are climbing the ladder and pulling it up behind them. Your six-figure salary won't even get you on the bottom rung.
Detailsfeature5v
By Jeff Gordinier
You know this guy from college. He runs a hedge fund-let's call it Colossal Capital Strategies-and if you're diligent or masochistic enough to do a little research, you'll find out that he made about $100 million last year. He's 36 years old and he has billions under management. The Wall Street Journal likes to refer to him as a "high-net-worth individual," but that wording seems so odd and clunky-the sort of boardroom-pretzel terminology that some lawyer from Enron might use to explain away a phantom transaction.
No. Let's call him a luxocrat.
A luxocrat is not merely rich, but rich in a way that you couldn't have imagined back in college. (Otherwise you would have been nicer to the guy.) He's rich enough to guarantee that every calorie that passes his lips has been fussed over by a master chef, rich enough to share his truffled foie gras with the treasury secretary on a Gulfstream headed for Barbados, rich enough to impulse-buy doodads from the Robb Report with a black American Express Centurion card (whose existence you weren't even aware of), rich enough to make your proud and dutiful little 401(k) look, in comparison, like the mound of coins that an Appalachian beet farmer might stash away in a pickle jar. A luxocrat is enormo-rich, robber-baron rich, 21st-century rich, swelled up with a wealth of such magnitude that it suggests the American class system would have to undergo a wholesale restructuring in order to accommodate it.
Which is arguably what's happening at this very moment.
FULL STORY
Wednesday, 14 June 2006 in Current Affairs, Entre
reply to this post delete this post
*
prom...
prometheus (dfgh)
online 45
new post
Re: The Social Cage
Today, 6:57 PM
in response to: Re: The Social Cage
"Prometheus, you over-generalize about Christianity,"
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I'm not overgeneralizing, I'm sinking a point home.
I'm equally interested in vindicating esoteric christian paths from their bad company.
Thats a process that requires firs being honest about the whole of the paradigm in a general
way.
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while ignoring Islam and Judaism.
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Okay, you're complaining that i'm not an equal opportunity paradigm slam artist?
You missed the point. Islam and Judaism are of course every bit as bad as christianity;
and also, just like christianity, there are good peices in there that we shouldn't dismiss
lightly. The trick is to see all of these paradigms as equally false,
but full of stuff worth mining.
In either case, the problems ensued between politics and money;
which took over those paradigms and others. The root problems are greed and pack and herd
psychology. Religions are just playing out as one tool to herd people. I'm an equal oppoirtunity slam
artist for every religion; but i don't play any favorites. Sciences and otehr paradigms are
equally flawed and kept stupid by the pack psychology and sheepleherding problems.
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"You have zero understanding of anarchism"
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i studied political science in depth. You are free to say such things, but you haven't
made any kind of argument. Until you make a cogent argument,
you have no ground to stand on to make such claims.
I know perfectly well what anarchism is both in popular culture and in political
science.
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and rely more on what modern Wicca
attempts to be than on what it actually is.
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Not at all. Wicca is a modern attempt just like Christianity is,
an attempt which fails miserably. Why it fails is an interesting story,
because its not the same story as why the war cults fail.
But its linked in the crossover culturally. Our culture can't inhabit the fictional
place of wicca, we don't have the culture and social depth positions right;
we don't have the nuances. Gardner captured the form and the structure, but not the essence,
and anybody (and most people) can do the rituals emptilly.
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"Finally your appeal to "four operational states""
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Brodmanns brain areas and the four brainwave states of consciousness are science fact.
Theres no point in arguing with me, i know orders of magnitude more than you seem to think
you do.
tribes.tribe.net/psychonau...3a42e7510e
tribes.tribe.net/psychonau...6d1aa00690
2. Beta waves are really frontal coretex dominance; ie, the Ego state.
Beta waves are the result of having the ego mind in a sort of suspended
holodeck of the diffference between the distal and proximal stage.
scholar.google.com/scholar
3. Alpha waves are really occipital or upper limbic dominance and correspond to
imagerial thinking, imagination, etc. The way thus to get into alpha conditions
are to use techniques such as lucid visualization. (which can be hundreds of times
better as an induction than the standard primive control freak hypnotism model.)
We actually build dreams in alpha states but the conscious mind experiences them
when they are loaded into the imaginal stage which is the theta condition.
Use of alchol or white powder types or heroin or cocaine etc leads to
alpha states; the effect of a "depressant" is to increase alpha waves in the brain.
4. Delta waves are simply the resting state of the brain. To get into a delta condition is as simple
and as complicatated as silencing the internal dialogue. Waking delta conditions are very difficult
to obtain, however, and unfortunately drugs won't get you there.
Delta states are activity of the reptilian brain, or reptilian brain dominance.
Waking delta states are supremely useful to martial artists; this is why.
Each level of the brain by virtue of its extra processing complications is slowing down
the sampling rate of reality. The frontal coretex ego mind ends up with a subjective number
of samplings per second usually no more than about 16 or 20. The mammalian mind on the other hand
gets perhaps as much as 30 or 80 samples per second. And the reptilian mind gets upto several hundred
samples per second.
This accounts for "time dilation" effects reported by some people in crisis situations...but more
importantly opens the window for bullet dodging fast reflexes.
Theta condition is the bodies natural healing condition; it is the reptilian brain waking up to pay attention to the body as its environment instead of the ego mind waking up to pay attention to physical reality as an environment. The body heals and self corrects via the natural sleeping theta condition, but the second
use of nature for theta condition is more important; dreams are the reversal of the normal filtering
mechanism that prevents the conscious mind from being overwhelmed by subliminal distractions and activities. Theta condition is used by the reptilian mind to take back its momentary control; to institute a sort of ku over the normally dominant ego, and to "wave hello" at the ego and show it that the subliminal self
is actually there. Theta condition is thus the doorway to reception of information from the subconscious mind, which is key to shamanism because the senses of the reptilian mind are the senses invented by evolution to control and deal with and regulate a neuroelectric magnetic hologram body. Neuromuscular
electricty is the final say on the shamans insights regarding the concept of "ether" or "subtle reality."
It IS real, and we can learn to recieve sensory stimulus that is normally subliminal, but which is rooted
by natural design as a tool for the reptilian mind.
This creates a fundamental paradox in human nature. Our only way out of the holodeck turns out to be through the guardian of our own animal nature as both our shadow, and in some senses as the egos
grim reaper.
5. Theta state is the OTHER waking state. Both alpha and delta are designed by nature as sleeping
states.
6. however, each of the 4 main types of brainwave states can be experienced either awake or asleep.
7. Most people have never experienced anything other than a waking beta state, or very slight alpha waking states.
8. The war on drugs is actually a continuation of the war on things that actually work to fullfill religious exploration towards theta condition. The true goal of church is to keep anybody from ever experiencing
a theta waking state; because then ones own access to GOD would supersede church authority.
Western morality is built on the bedrock of keeping us OUT OF THE GARDEN OF EDEN.
What the bible conceals from us is that WE TOOK IT WITH US.
and
ITS ALL IN OUR HEADS.
To drive the point home; yeshua ben yeoseph said "the kingdom of heaven is not outside of you, but within you."
The different brain states feel different - and I even may feel like an entirely different person while experiencing them. And yet, I may not realize I'm in one of the alternate states unless I pause and observe, as a meta-observer, from outside the phenomenon.... I'm playing with the idea that if one can easily recognize the feeling of a particular state, it may become easier to "find one's way back to it".
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thats a very key epiphany and absolutely true esp for use of psychoactives. If you use hypnosis combined with psychoactives, you can use a post hypnotic suggestion to return
to the state you are about to experience later. Also, how well you pay attention to whats happening in your own head is key here...being distracted by a concert or whateva isn't going to get u there.
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Similarly, memories from some of those different states feel different, qualitatively - more vibrant, complex, or intense than regular memories.
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memory is stored by the three main areas in completely different ways.
The conscious mind really only has short term memory, for instance.
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Some are so outside everyday experience that they feel like they belong to "someone else" - I was a different person when the memory registered, if that makes sense, and when I call the memory up, I bring part of that person back to consciousness. Some of these strange memories are incredibly precious to me, and, unfortunately, impossible to describe to others.
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yes, second attention is like being a whole different person...from a brain scan perspective,
it is as different as another whole person would be and even more so. Theres more difference in brain scan info between you in 2nd attention and you normal than there is between you normal and 10 other people normal. So yes, its a very large difference.
The mind is being used in completely different ways...ways not taught to it by culture....
ways not communicated or communicable by verbal language.
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The time dilation phenomenon you describe is something I hadn't really given much thought to.... but in retrospect, it's an obvious a marker; a signpost that would help identify some of these states.
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Its one of the best ones, which is why i include it. If you have serious time dilation, you know
you are in a waking delta state. Since you aren't thinking too much, its the clearest sign
you passed the threshold. Otherwise you are just sitting in near internal silence, waiting for
something "different" to happen, but you have no idea what to look for.
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Thanks for posting.
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u r very welcome!
:)
"primal" mammalian is the middle brain.
spot.colorado.edu/~dubin/ta...dmann.html
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Hi Prometheus, interesting post that gathers together some interesting ideas. However, by focusing on christianity I'd suggest that the point has been missed.
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my answer is i'm just warming up the engines over here.
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Organised - and heirarchal - religion is about politics and control.
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yes, my point exactly.
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Certainly most of us are more familiar with Christianity and the political history associated with the Protestants breaking off from the Catholic church and so on. One can quite reasonably argue that in many ways Christ was more of a political dissident than a religious one but the only acceptable social framework available to him was religious.
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okay, i'll buy that. My point again is that religion is played out as a pawn to politics, not the other way around. Christ was a political person, but his stage was religious.
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