Daydreaming/Imagination/Memory and relation to environment

[Inti]

I am also seeing that my memory is better with "visual" books - I don't mean books with pictures but material that conjures up strong images...almost ironically, material that seems to play on the power of imagination. Perhaps this is why folktales/myths/poetry have a much stronger effect on me.

With those visual-thought-intense books, I think the difference stems from that the part of your machine that would otherwise drift into irrelevant activity and take your focus and attention with it is instead occupied with the material, meaning that you "keep hold" of it and that it therefore remains in short-term memory instead of being displaced by irrelevant data.

I just read "The Golden Thread" (Joscelyn Godwin - has anyone read this? I'm not quite sure what to make of it) and there was a part that discusses this, which I found interesting:

The primary arts of the Renaissance were visual - painting, sculpture, and architecture. Those of the Romantic era were aural - poetry, imaginative prose, and music. The latter arts act as a more powerful stimulus to the inward path because of the different functions of the eye and the ear. The eye gives us immediate and detailed knowledge of the physical world surrounding us; it draws us out of ourselves, so much so that most people forget that they are even there. The ear also draws us, but not so much out of as into ourselves. We always have to interpret what we hear, because it comes through language rather than with the immediacy of forms and colors. When we read poetry, and even more when we hear it spoken, it causes images to arise from inside, rather than from without. We create and own them in a way that we can never do with the outside world.
The Romantic poets discovered states of the soul that noone had paid attention to before, and then educated generations of readers to feel them. The reason poetry was so effective for this process is because of its fixity with regard to language. The poem is inseparable from its actual words and all the resonances they evoke in native speakers (which is why lyric poetry especially is untranslatable). Also, because of its rhyme and meter, it sticks in the memory in a way that prose does not.

This book, interestingly, also brings up the subject of imagination. I'm a bit confused on this matter really because it seems that there are different definitions as to what it is. I can understand that the mere production of pleasant fantasies, what I would call daydreaming, is a form of mental laziness. However, sometimes it seems that there are different roles for imagination. For example, and probably many experience this, often I might play through a situation or a conversation in my mind, seeing the various potentialities of it. Is this also mental laziness or can it be useful? Isn't empathy based on imagination to an extent? (You imagine yourself as another?)

The Western esoteric tradition has always emphasized the use of the imagination as the primary way of access to higher worlds. All esoteric schools, as far as I know, train their students in visualization and active imagination (sometimes included within the broader term of "meditation"). The inner senses can be strengthened, just as the muscles of an athlete or the skill of a musician are developed through training. The time, effort, and dedication required are comparable in all three cases, as is the need for a genetic disposition.
Our concern here is both with the esoteric use of the imagination as a vehicle for entering inner worlds, and its exoteric use for educationa and indoctrination. There are various way to stimulate the imagination, including fasting, sleep deprivation, and a wide range of drugs. The goal is to overcome its usual imprecision and fuzziness, and to achieve a degree of clarity and reality rivaling that of the waking environment.

He also writes:

The practice of active imagination is the essence of Kabbalah, in which the mental manipulation of letters, numbers, and geometrical forms in two and three dimensions supposedly leads to the understanding of God's creative plan. This understanding may eventually bring the Kabbalist to the conviction of knowing God. The same techniques were practiced by Sufis.
The art of Memory, known to the ancients, was allied to these meditative practices, but was specifically architectural: its basic technique was to imagine a building in which symbolic images of the things to be remembered were placed sequentially on the walls and in the rooms

Well, I gather from this that Godwin believes imagination to be a fundamental part of various mystic teachings. I'd be interested to hear what others think on this subject.

 

[obyvatel]

This book, interestingly, also brings up the subject of imagination. I'm a bit confused on this matter really because it seems that there are different definitions as to what it is. I can understand that the mere production of pleasant fantasies, what I would call daydreaming, is a form of mental laziness. However, sometimes it seems that there are different roles for imagination. For example, and probably many experience this, often I might play through a situation or a conversation in my mind, seeing the various potentialities of it. Is this also mental laziness or can it be useful? Isn't empathy based on imagination to an extent? (You imagine yourself as another?)

The key point could be the presence (or absence) of an aim and the ability to keep the thinking relatively focused on that aim. The activity of empathising, looking at various potentialities of a situation could be imagination directed towards the goal of understanding the position of others as well as exploring different options of response for the self - so useful. The uselessness of daydreaming comes from the directionless associative thinking that goes on almost continuously. It has no purpose and it changes direction ever so often through random associations to certain words, sounds etc. Indulging in such meaningless meandering thoughts would be mental laziness - osit.
Most of the time the "why" of certain continuously running thoughts and the associations that trigger them are not readily accessible to us specially if we are not "paying attention". It is interesting that attention needs to be "paid" - does not come for free nor is it an effortless activity. And unless we pay attention, the emotional and moving centres which work much faster than the intellectual centre can easily usurp it for their own purposes.

Well, I gather from this that Godwin believes imagination to be a fundamental part of various mystic teachings. I'd be interested to hear what others think on this subject.

As far as "visualization of higher worlds" is concerned, this is activity of "seeing the unseen". What we learn from reading Laura's work is that unless such efforts are combined with research and "thinking with a hammer", it is very easy to go astray. Also before such "imagination" is used for accessing other realities, a lot of preparation and house-cleaning is needed to firmly understand the present reality and tuning the "reading apparatus". Without that effort, imagination would only lead to more subjectivity.

 

[Inti]

The key point could be the presence (or absence) of an aim and the ability to keep the thinking relatively focused on that aim

That makes sense to me.

As far as "visualization of higher worlds" is concerned, this is activity of "seeing the unseen". What we learn from reading Laura's work is that unless such efforts are combined with research and "thinking with a hammer", it is very easy to go astray. Also before such "imagination" is used for accessing other realities, a lot of preparation and house-cleaning is needed to firmly understand the present reality and tuning the "reading apparatus". Without that effort, imagination would only lead to more subjectivity.

That also makes sense to me! :) Thanks Obyvatel, I appreciate your reply and thoughts.

 

[Inti]

I don't know whether this will be of any help to anyone but it is an exercise I just came across that seems like it might be quite useful for self-remembering:

He said that there were various important exercises having to do with "self-remembering" which was a very important aspect of his work. One of them was to conscientiously and with all one's concentration, try to remember, as on a movie film, everything that one had done during each entire day. This was to be done every night before going to sleep. The most important thing in the exercise was not to let the attention wander - by association. If one's attention did wander from the focus upon the image of oneself, then it was absolutely necessary to begin all over again at the beginning each time this happened - and it would, he warned, happen.

I also found the following paragraph worth consideration:

He talked to me for a very long time that morning, and emphasized the fact that everyone had, usually, a particular, recurring problem in life. He said that these particular problems were usually a form of laziness, and that I was to think about my laziness, which took a fairly obvious physical form, as in the case of the garden: I had simply put off doing anything in the garden until someone had taken notice of that fact. He said that he wanted me to think seriously about my laziness - not the outward form, which was not important, but to find out what it was. "When you see that you are lazy, necessary find out what this laziness is. Because in some ways you already lazy for many years, can take even many years for you to find out what it is. Must ask yourself, whenever you see your own laziness: 'What is this laziness in me?' If you ask this question seriously, and with concentration, is possible someday you will find answer. This important and very difficult work I give you now."(p.163-164)

 

[Helle]

I also found the following paragraph worth consideration:

He talked to me for a very long time that morning, and emphasized the fact that everyone had, usually, a particular, recurring problem in life. He said that these particular problems were usually a form of laziness, and that I was to think about my laziness, which took a fairly obvious physical form, as in the case of the garden: I had simply put off doing anything in the garden until someone had taken notice of that fact. He said that he wanted me to think seriously about my laziness - not the outward form, which was not important, but to find out what it was. "When you see that you are lazy, necessary find out what this laziness is. Because in some ways you already lazy for many years, can take even many years for you to find out what it is. Must ask yourself, whenever you see your own laziness: 'What is this laziness in me?' If you ask this question seriously, and with concentration, is possible someday you will find answer. This important and very difficult work I give you now."(p.163-164)

Owie, there's one for me..
That's a good question. "what is this laziness in me"?. I never really thought about WHAT it is, I just constantly battle it.
Maybe if I understood what it is, I could conquer it more easily.

First thing that pops in my mind when asking this question, is that I'm so afraid of not doing anything RIGHT, that I often just don't do it at all.
I'm such a perfectionist, and I want things done properly and to perfection. I start out with all the right intentions, but then I sense, that I can't DO it the way i WANT it done, and then I slip into some kind of apathy.

This has surely been an AHA moment for me, and something to seriously work on.

Thanks Inti ;D I'm all baffled..

 

[T.C.]

First thing that pops in my mind when asking this question, is that I'm so afraid of not doing anything RIGHT, that I often just don't do it at all.

This is something I struggle with too. It seems to come from the fact that my parent always kept the house SPOTLESS, and couldn't let anyone else interfere with their standards. Thus, whenever I tried to do something around the house, they would redo it afterwards to their standards and undermine my efforts. In the end I was programmed to believe that, "the house is not your territory, you have no business in interfering with its maintenance and upkeep". That even extended into my own bedroom. So now I kinda have this belief that I shouldn't interfere with things (including my life) and that someone else will come along and take care of things for me.

Something that comes from taking pride in ones living space, taking control of your surroundings to your own standards, is a sense of confidence in yourself and your ability. It's very rewarding. So when you've been deprived of that experience from an early age, you just don't see the point. But the more you do it, the easier it gets, the happier you become, and the more faith you have in your ability do things. I even view it as a way of channelling creative energy into our reality - making order out of chaos.

 

[RedFox]

I also found the following paragraph worth consideration:

He talked to me for a very long time that morning, and emphasized the fact that everyone had, usually, a particular, recurring problem in life. He said that these particular problems were usually a form of laziness, and that I was to think about my laziness, which took a fairly obvious physical form, as in the case of the garden: I had simply put off doing anything in the garden until someone had taken notice of that fact. He said that he wanted me to think seriously about my laziness - not the outward form, which was not important, but to find out what it was. "When you see that you are lazy, necessary find out what this laziness is. Because in some ways you already lazy for many years, can take even many years for you to find out what it is. Must ask yourself, whenever you see your own laziness: 'What is this laziness in me?' If you ask this question seriously, and with concentration, is possible someday you will find answer. This important and very difficult work I give you now."(p.163-164)

I've been trying to consider this one too......
Two observations that gave me an AHA moment today seem to be related to success (wealth/high achiever etc) and appearance (well dressed/'beautiful' in a superficial appearance way)......I tend to be quite scruffy, lazy and untidy. I realised today that part of me despised those that seemed smart, successful (motivated/not lazy) and where tidy. I can see that part of it (which I couldn't until today) is a rejection of the pathological elements of it.....that those that tend to be smart and successful tend to have qualities (ego's/arrogance's) that I reject.....although ironically that probably makes me what I'm rejecting.
I know I learnt most of this when I was at school.....the socially successful ones where the bullies.....I rejected/hid from them by being the opposite.
For me its also linked to stress responces (I feel like the dog from Pavlov's experiments)....so one of my core drives is to avoid things that previously drove up my stress responce to intolerable levels.....usually by being lazy (avoiding the work) to the point where something comes overdue, and generates a huge amount of stress trying to complete.
Thinking about it my untidiness may be to do with keeping my stress level up.....how odd.

 

[luke wilson]

Maladaptive Daydreaming

What is it?

Maladaptive daydreaming is considered as a state in which a person daydreams or imagines as a psychological response to prior trauma or abuse. It is also described as immersive or excessive daydreaming characterized by attendant distress or functional impairment with or without prior trauma.

What are the symptoms?

•This excessive daydreaming often begins in childhood
•Daydreaming excessively in a way that is often compared to an addiction.
•Books, movies, music, video games, and other media may be a daydreaming trigger.
•The daydreaming itself is often detailed and elaborate, sometimes compared to a movie or novel.
•Repetitive movements while daydreaming are common (but not always present in sufferers) - pacing, rocking, spinning, shaking something in their hand, etc.
•Some people will lie in bed for hours daydreaming, and may either have difficulty going to sleep because of this, or have difficulty getting out of bed once awake. They may also neglect basic functions such as regular meals, etc. because of excessive daydreaming.
•They may sometimes talk, laugh, cry, gesture, or make facial expressions as they daydream. People suffering from this know the difference between daydreaming and reality, and do not confuse the two; this makes them distinctly different from psychotics or schizophrenics.
•Daydreaming causes difficulties in their lives, or prevents them from fully functioning in their day-to-day life.
•Becoming upset or angry when Daydreams are interrupted



Some people have reported dizziness, headaches and other physical symptoms after daydreaming.


Those who claim to suffer from this disorder have reported that their daydreaming feels like an addiction and that it has a negative impact on their life. Excessive daydreaming may begin as an outlet for creativity or as a method of escaping trauma or abuse.

The daydreamers experience very vivid and intricate fantasies and may become emotionally attached to the characters in their fantasies or express emotions they are feeling through vocal utterances or changing facial expressions, although they keep such behavior hidden from others.

Some also exhibit symptoms similar to Asperger’s Syndrome, ADHD or OCD.

Listening to music while daydreaming is common and hearing music may trigger a fantasy. A repetitive movement may be articulated to music while daydreaming.

The daydreaming is compulsive and the individual finds it hard to stop – even to the detriment of other activities and behaviors.

Often there is a described link between the daydreaming and music. Either the individual uses music in order to incite daydreams, or they find themselves unable to stop when they hear music.

What are the causes?

The causes of maladaptive daydreaming are potentially numbers [?]. The term was originally coined in order to refer specifically to one form of maladaptive daydreaming – that being daydreams that are triggered by traumatic events in the past such as abuse. However the term is today used more broadly to accept many different causes and forms of daydreaming.

Often daydreaming is used as a form of ‘escapism’ and this suggests that an individual is unhappy with their real lives. For instance if someone creates ‘imaginary friends’ then often this might be as a substitute for real friends and that person might feel lonely. Meanwhile if the individual experiences daydreams of being a superhero and fighting crimes and flying, it may be that they feel ‘powerless’ in their day-to-day lives. Someone who dislikes their job may daydream of punching their boss, or someone who is sexually frustrated may have daydreams with explicit sexual content.

Today’s culture also seems highly likely to trigger daydreams – as we spend much of our lives sedentary and in doors, while reading about, watching and controlling fictional heroes doing extraordinary things.

If you do not get enough REM sleep, then studies have shown the possibility of dreams ‘bleeding’ into your daylight hours. Daydreaming could also be linked to various psychological conditions, such as schizophrenia (visual hallucinations) or psychosis.

Wikipedia also has an entry

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maladaptive_daydreaming

Typing it into google will also result in many hits, mainly to blogs/forums of people who are astounded to discover they aren't the only ones suffering from it.

Jung wrote about this extensively. The compensation for the lack of fulfillment in the outer world, creates a vivid inner world. People create entire alternative lives where they live every day. And the more the outer world is not meeting our expectations, the more time we spend in that inner world.

Some useful links:

_http://www.wikihow.com/Deal-With-Maladaptive-Daydreaming

_http://myobviouslittlesecret.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/maladaptive-daydreaming/

Finally, it's important to note that people who suffer from this know the difference between reality and fantasy, unlike those suffering from schizophrenia.

From myobviouslittlesecret link

Maladaptive Daydreamers may become so absorbed in their daydreams that they feel emotionally attached to the people, places, and relationships they’ve developed in their own minds. A few may even feel like their daydreams are more real to them than their real lives. But they never lose touch with the fact that it is in fact all fantasy. They haven’t lost touch with reality. They don’t believe the people, worlds, places in their daydreams are real. They don’t ever get confused between fantasy and reality. They’re very aware of the real life going on around them and that their fantasies are just that.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming

What prompted this, Luke? Is this something you do?

 

[Muxel]

Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming

Ben Stiller in his film, The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, does this constantly. So do I, sometimes. I'd call it the abuse of System 2. (by System 1, who cannot "create without" and so resorts to "processing within".)

 

[Muxel]

Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming

I think this part is especially pertinent:

Those who claim to suffer from this disorder have reported that their daydreaming feels like an addiction and that it has a negative impact on their life. Excessive daydreaming may begin as an outlet for creativity or as a method of escaping trauma or abuse.

 

[seek10]

Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming

I think this part is especially pertinent:

Those who claim to suffer from this disorder have reported that their daydreaming feels like an addiction and that it has a negative impact on their life. Excessive daydreaming may begin as an outlet for creativity or as a method of escaping trauma or abuse.

Some where (either in ISOTM or Gnosis 1) it was mentioned that day dreaming is Intellectual center usurping the negative emotional center's energy. One way to handle is, recognizing the negative emotion (i.e. feel safe enough to recognizing it and knowing healthy options). Given that we are not trained in emotions in this world, observation and constant input goes a long way to handling it.

Some times, it is the habituated mental practice run of outcomes(what to do) that became unconscious, whether it is child's survival mechanism or educational( In some engineering courses, you will be taught to imagine plane cutting solid etc. )

 

[luke wilson]

Re: Maladaptive Daydreaming

What prompted this, Luke? Is this something you do?

It's something I have always done since my teens. Usually it was as a way of coping with difficult situations. I lock myself up in my room, put in my ear phones and off I go. It can be hours until I return back. I have whole alternative lives. However, those other lives are linked to my current life, as a sort of counter-balance. Basically as compensation.

It's very specific how it happens to me. Music is the fuel... though I have to be in a private place e.g. my room. But for it to work, I need to be experiencing a situation in my life that is essentially not going according to plan. I don't want to give specific exampls of exactly how I compensate because it's sort of private and sort of silly. But know this, whole worlds and characters exist. Some of these characters don't change but evolve over time as my life changes with age.

So what prompted it? Well, over the last couple of days as you've noticed with my postings on the forum, I've been sort of slipping. Anyways so I went on a binge yesterday (headphones on, music and that was 5hrs of the day gone) - I just needed a release. Later on I was just curious if what I do had a name. I typed in the description onto google and i saw people talking about maladaptive daydreaming, including the triggers etc. It pretty much fit in perfectly and lo and behold it was a negative thing (disorder). So I figured I'd post it here, I searched for the specific term but couldn't find it so started it's own thread but it appears their was one on general daydreaming.

Please note it's very different to just normal daydreaming which can be beneficial. _http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/why-does-daydreaming-get-such-bad-rap

_http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/03/mind-wandering_n_4024852.html

_http://maladaptivedaydreaming.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/daydreaming-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

This is daydreaming gone too far.

 

[Persej]

Here are two video clips about Maladaptive Daydreaming. The first one is an analysis of MD as presented in the movie The Secret Life of Walter Mitty. And the second one is about a personal experience with this disorder.

Here is a short scientific article about it: Maladaptive daydreaming as a new form of behavioral addiction
But in this blog you can find a beautiful description of this phenomena: Guide
And here is one forum where people with MD share their experiences: Discussion Forum

 

[Persej]

Here is another article about MD:

Maladaptive daydreaming

Fourteen years ago realising that you are in love with a figment of your imagination would have resulted in a course of antipsychotic drugs typical of those used to treat schizophrenic hallucinations. Even though maladaptive daydreamers know that the world they have created inside their minds is not real, when the issue is brought up in a counsellor’s office it is often either treated as if it is psychosis, or underestimated and simply labelled as an overactive imagination. Very little has changed in the clinical environment when one opens up about their emotional attachment to the fantasy world that they have created.

Outside the doctor’s office however, the situation is very different; it has been 14 years since Eli Somer’s first study of dissociating behaviour in the form of an addiction to daydreaming, and the discovery of this phenomenon has inspired blogs, support groups, Facebook pages, YouTube channels, and ‘Wild Minds Network’ – a support website dedicated to maladaptive daydreaming. But even so, without knowing the phrase ‘maladaptive daydreaming’ it is virtually impossible to find any of these places, as the symptoms will prominently point towards psychosis or ADHD.The first scrap of an answer a maladaptive daydreamer gets is from accidently stumbling on a post on their newsfeed related to the concept, not from a clinical diagnosis.

Maladaptive daydreaming usually occurs as a coping mechanism in response to trauma, abuse or loneliness. Sufferers create a complex inner world which they escape to in times of distress by daydreaming for hours. It is a vicious cycle of addiction; maladaptive daydreaming inevitably creates an emotional attachment to the characters and the life created, which often replaces the painful real-life interactions between family and friends. It also interferes with studying, working and looking after one’s hygiene and wellbeing, which then further hinders daily functioning. At this point, daydreaming about a fulfilling life is a more appealing than dealing with the depressing reality. The defining difference between maladaptive daydreaming and psychosis is the fact that the individual knows that their daydreams are not real.

With no medical recognition, the disorder is treated as a neural biochemical imbalance instead of an addictive symptom stemming from a void in the individual’s life. The underlying problem is not addressed. Maladaptive daydreamers are not taken seriously: stuck waiting for suitable treatment, for acknowledgement that their minds are not simply ‘creative’ – but instead that this ‘creativity’ has a hand wrapped tightly around their throats – and finally, for answers.

The question still remains: ‘Why me?’ The exact mechanism by which maladaptive daydreaming comes to inhibit the ability of one’s emotions to stay anchored to reality remains to be discussed. Less nebulously though, is the fact that this discussion cannot be extended without further research and new minds linking ideas together into an amalgam that will eventually answer this question. Answers are required not only for treatment, but also to bring peace of mind to those who believe maladaptive daydreaming is a life sentence of isolation. I urge those of you reading to spread awareness of maladaptive daydreaming; share this letter, talk about maladaptive daydreaming, conduct research into it. Someone right now is living in isolation believing that they are ‘the only person with this thing’.

Maladaptive daydreaming | The Psychologist

thepsychologist.bps.org.uk