Daydreaming/Imagination/Memory and relation to environment

Inti

Jedi
Since discovering this site and forum in January 2009, I have been trying to observe myself more. One of the things that has begun to become more apparent to me is my immense capacity for daydreaming. From what I can see, it seems that I spend almost all the time daydreaming. It's like watching someone on a train who's dropped off to sleep...momentarily jerking into some vague level of awareness, before shifting position and dropping off to sleep again. I find this daydreaming capacity a very powerful force and I am beginning to think that, in my life, it is my greatest hypnotizer. I do not know how powerful this force is in other people's lives...I imagine it is present to greater and lesser degrees in everyone.

I am new to all this. I was wondering whether anyone could guide me or advise me about how to begin to wake up out of this. Are there exercises or anything I can practise?

Coupled with this is a problem with memory, probably linked...I don't know. To me, it seems my long-term memory is relatively good, but short-term memory poorer. It is frustrating because I often read books and almost entirely forget them, even if I found them really interesting and enjoyable at the time (that I can remember!). I am also seeing that my memory is better with "visual" books - I don't mean books with pictures but material that conjures up strong images...almost ironically, material that seems to play on the power of imagination. Perhaps this is why folktales/myths/poetry have a much stronger effect on me. I can also remember books better than films, possibly because films give you the images, whereas books often let you do a certain amount of creating them. I remember that Gurdjieff said that imagination is the force of Kundalini, the force which keeps people hypnotised (in ISOTM). I do agree, but why does it also seem that this force of imagination is sometimes being used to reveal certain truths (for eg, via myths)? Or am I deluding myself here? Or misunderstanding the definition of imagination?! :/

When reading I find it helps me to write things down - usually either things I feel I need to give further thought to or things I feel are important. I think it is probably the repetition, slowing-down and focus that helps here. Does anyone know of any other techniques that might be useful for memory?

Another question or issue I would like to bring up is the role of environment in daydreaming. I spent several years living and working in lowland tropical forest, where it was my job to pay close attention to the natural world. To a large extent, the environment also demanded it (if you daydream, you are quickly reminded to pay attention by external factors such as stinging ants, bees, spines on the ground, trees, snakes, animals, etc..) I often felt there that life was continually prodding me or slapping me to pay attention. My memories of that time seem very clear and include memories related to all the senses - smell, touch, taste, sound, sight...and also the emotions I felt related to those. Some might imagine that so far from civilisation (by "civilisation" I mean the industrialised, urbanised) people would be somewhat "purer". I did not find this to be true in my experience. I saw much darkness and corruption there, along with good too. Also, because I was among smaller communities, it was more difficult to escape from who I did not like. But was I any more awake then? I don't know. I felt more awake but perhaps this was just another dream. Where I live now, it is almost the opposite....it seems that everything around me is quite content to see me fall asleep and, if I can't do it to myself, there's a whole range of other hypnotizers out there to help. In terms of people, with some exceptions, if I don't like them I can more or less choose to avoid them. I am not sure whether one environment is better than the other to be in with regards to the Work and I suspect it depends on the individual's aim and perhaps level. Is it more testing to be among hypnotizers and fight sleep than to be in an environment that seems to do that for you? Or can it be dangerous if you are not well enough prepared? Is there a way of knowing which is best for you?
 
Inti said:
Since discovering this site and forum in January 2009, I have been trying to observe myself more. One of the things that has begun to become more apparent to me is my immense capacity for daydreaming. From what I can see, it seems that I spend almost all the time daydreaming. It's like watching someone on a train who's dropped off to sleep...momentarily jerking into some vague level of awareness, before shifting position and dropping off to sleep again. I find this daydreaming capacity a very powerful force and I am beginning to think that, in my life, it is my greatest hypnotizer. I do not know how powerful this force is in other people's lives...I imagine it is present to greater and lesser degrees in everyone.

I am new to all this. I was wondering whether anyone could guide me or advise me about how to begin to wake up out of this. Are there exercises or anything I can practise?
Hi Inti,

Just to address your first question, Gurdjieff discusses daydreaming as fantasy and a distraction. It is useful to search the forum for 'daydreaming' and see what previous suggestions have been made. For instance you'll see suggestions such as keeping a journal. The idea being to help you realise how frequently you are distracted away from DOing. One thing you could try is based on Gurdjieff's exercise on Death which was presented in the Sex and the Work thread by psyche:
psyche said:
Here is Gurdjieff's exercise "The Last Hour of Life":

G. I. Gurdjieff: The Last Hour of Life

=============================

Imagine, that you have only a few minutes, maybe an hour left to live;
somehow you have discovered exactly when you will die. What would you do
with this precious hour of your stay on Earth? Would you be able to complete
all your things in this last hour, do you have a conscious idea about how to
do it?

And letting go your last breath would you feel satisfaction from knowing
that you have done everything possible in this life to fulfil that you are
constantly present, always vibrating, always waiting, like the son is
waiting for the father-sailor? In the manifested world everything has its
beginning and its end. In the Real World everything is always present and
one beautiful day you will be allowed to forget everything and leave the
world "forever".

Freedom is worth a million times more than liberation. The free man, even in
slavery, remains a master of himself. For example, if I give you something,
let's say, a car, in which there is no fuel, the car cannot move. Your car
needs a special fuel, but it is only you who is able to define what kind of
fuel is needed and where to get it.

You have to define yourself how to digest my ideas to make them yours, so
that they belong only to you. Your car cannot work on the same fuel my car
is working on. I suggest you only the primary material. You have to get from
it what you can use. So, more bravely, sit down at the steering wheel.

The organic life is very fragile. The planetary body can die at any moment.
It is always one step from death. And if you could manage to live one more
day, it is only a chance accidentally given to you by nature. If you will be
able to live even one more hour, you can consider yourself to be a lucky
person. From the moment of conception we are living on borrowed time.

Living in this world you have to feel death each second, so settle all your
life affairs, even in your last hour. But how can anyone know exactly his
last hour? For the sense of security make up your things with nature and
yourself in every hour given to you, then you will never be met unprepared.
The man has to be taught this starting from the school: how to breath, to
eat, to move and to die right. This has to become a part of an educational
programme. In this programme it is nessesary to include the teaching about
how to realize the presence of "I" and also how to establish consciousness.

Question: How to act if you do not feel that there is something unfinished?

Gurdjieff aswered after a pause. He took a deep breath and replied:

Ask yourself who will be in difficulty if you die like a dog. At the moment
of death you have to be wholly aware of yourself and feel that you have done
everything possible to use all, within your abilities, in this life which
was given to you.

Now you do not know much about yourself. But with each day you dig deeper
and deeper into this bag of bones and start knowing more and more details.
Day by day you will be finding out what you should have done and what you
have to re-do among the things you have done. A real man is one who could
take from life everything that was valueble in it, and say :"And now I can
die". We have to try to live your lives so that we could say any day :"Today
I can die and not be sorry about anything".

Never spend fruitlessly the last hour of your life because it can become the
most important hour for you. If you use it wrongly, you may be sorry about
it later. This sincere excitement that you feel now can become for you a
powerful source of the force that can prepare you for perfect death. Knowing
that the next hour can become the last one for you, absorb the impressions
which it will bring to you as a real gourmet. When lady death will call you,
be prepared, always. The master knows how to take from each tasty piece the
last bit of the most valuable. Learn to be the master of your life.

When I was young I learned to prepare fragrances. I learned to extract from
life it's essence, ist most subtle qualities. Search in everything the most
valuable, learn to separate the fine from the coarse. One who has learned
how to extract the essence, the most important from each moment of life, has
reached a sense on quality.

He is able to do with the world something that can not be done by an
aboriginal.

It could be that in the last moments of your life you will not have the
choice where and with whom to be, but you will have a choice to decide how
fully you will live them. The ability to take the valuable from life - is
the same as to take from the food, air and the impressions the substances
needed to build up your higher bodies. If you want to take from your life
the most valuable for yourself, it has to be for the good of the higher; for
yourself it is enough to leave just a little. To work on yourself for the
good of others is a smart way to receive the best from life for yourself. If
you will not be satisfied with the last hour of your life, you will not be
happy about the whole of your life. To die means to come through something
which is impossible to repeat again. To spend your precious time in nothing
means to deprive yourself the opportunity to extract from life the most
valuable.

In this world, to live life through, from the beginning to the end - means
another aspect of the Absolute. All greatest philosophers were carefully
preparing for the last hour of their life. And now I will give you the
exercise to prepare for the last hour on the Earth. Try not to misinterpret
any word from the given exercise.

The Exercise
===========
Look back at the hour that has passed, as if it was the last hour for you on
the earth and that you have just acknowledged that you have died. Ask
yourself, were you satisfied at that hour?

And now reanimate yourself again and set up the aim for yourself. In the
next hour (if you are lucky to live one more) try to extract from life a
little more than you did in the last hour. Define, where and when you should
have been more aware, and where you should have put more inner fire.

And now open your eyes wider, and by this I mean - open more possibilities
for yourself, be a little more brave, than you were in the previous hour.
Since you know that this is your last hour and you have nothing to loose,
try to gain some bravery - at least now. Of course, you don't have to be
silly about it.

Get to know yourself better, look at your machine as if from the outside. ..
Now, when you are dying, there is no sense to keep your reputation and your
prestige.

And now onwards, until the real last hour, aspire with persistence to
receive the most you can from life that is of value, develop your intuition.
Take just a few moments each hour to watch at the hour that passed, without
judgement, and then tune yourself to extracting more from the following
hour.

If we look at each hour like at a separate life unit, you can try to do as
much as you can to use every unit totally. Force yourself and find the way
to make the next hour much more than the one before, but also be aware that
you have taken care of the debts you collected till now. Increase the
self-sensing and self-knowledge of yourself, and also increase the ability
to master yourself, this will change the work of your machine, which is
always out of your control. And these abilities can become the indication of
the real changes. And it is absolutely unimportant what the machine is
thinking about this.

...To live the rest of your life rehearsing your death hour by hour - is not
at all pathological. None can receive more from life than the cancer
patient, who knows approximately when he will die. And since he already
recognized how he wishes to spend the rest of his life, he will not have to
make the total change in it, but he will be able to go somewhere, where he
always wished to go, but would not do it in other circumstances.

The man who knows that he will die soon, will try to use to the maximum
every hour of the rest of his life. This is exactly what Christ meant when
he said that the last days will come soon - the days before the Last
Judgement. We are all standing in front of the Judge, but it is not the
others who are judging us, but we ourselves do the last estimation of our
life. We do not have to fail the most important examination, where the most
serious judge is ourself.

Each moment, taken alone, represents the particle of the eternal Creation.
Therefore each moment we can extract the most subtle substances, that we can
call "the essence of life".

Imagine yourself the substance "air" or the substance "impressions".
Finally, draw in your mind the substance "moment". Yes, even the moments of
time are the substances.

If we will be able to extract the finest substances from the coarser, sooner
or later we will have to pay for it. This law is called The Law of Balance.
That is why we will learn how to pay immediately for those what we receive
from life. Only then we will not have any debts. To pay immediately - this
is what is called "real doing". "To do" - is to think, to feel, to act, but
"real doing" - is to pay immediately.

To do - may mean only one thing: to extract the essence from each moment of
life and at the same moment to pay all the debts to the nature and yourself;
but only when you have "I", you can pay immediately.

Real life is not a change of activity, but a change of the quality of the
activity. Destiny - is destiny. Each one of us has to find himself in the
whole order of things. It is not too late yet to start doing it now,
although you have spent the greater part of your life in sleep. Starting
from today you can begin to prepare yourself for death and, at the same
time, to increase the quality of your living. But do not delay with the
start - maybe you really only have just one more hour of life.

Question: Can we share this with others? I think it is very important what
we have heard about this evening.

- You can retell it word by word, but until you will not do this for
yourself, it would mean nothing for others. Existence is the means, or the
instrument, for action. Think about this and you will find out why it is so.

Question: Therefore, we cannot pay the debts, if we do not exist, or if our
"I" is absent?

- Why do you have such a need to pay? Pay for what? If life is only a
coincidence, then there is no sense to go on. This does not mean that you
have to end your life with a suicide. Opposite, you have to put all your
effort into 'to live'. Ordinary man always lives, just going with the flow.
He is not just sleeping, he is absolutely dead. To really live, it is
necessary to support the efforts of nature, to take actively from life, and
not to act passively - wherever it flows.

Extracting from life the most precious, you have to be able to operate your
emotions. See how fairly you can estimate yourself. Look attentively at
yourself and you will see many remarkable ways to be fair. Each time notice
for yourself different moments when the desires appear. Act as before, but
always be aware of their presence. Transport to the world the part of your
blood, but one of the higher level.

At the end of each hour after you have estimated its usefulness, imagine
that you just woke up in the absolutely unknown in comparison to the
previous one gone by. It is important to note that the apparent continuation
of the last hour is in reality changing with every hour, although things and
people seem the same as before. With the time you will learn to see yourself
as a spirit of a special substance, who is coming from one world to another,
as an uninvited guest of nature.

Looking from this point of view evaluate everything you do in your life.
Looking at the results of all your efforts of the past and think what sense
they all have now, in the last hour of your life. Those who are engaged in
the Work, are dead to this world and at the same time they are more alive in
this world than anyone else. Work. something strange, imperceptible, but for
many it is impossible to live without it.

The ordinary way of understanding life is vanity of vanities. However big
the result is according to earthly measures, sooner or later it will fail.
Even the sand is being rubbed into dust by time. Even the most significant
people of history are being forgotten. To understand the real possibilities
of this world, it is necessary to find what we can reach in this world that
will be very useful in the Real World.

Attentively look at the lives of all the greatest people, those who were
commanding armies, who had power over others. What is the benefit for them
from all their great actions now, when they are dead? Even when they were
alive, all these great actions were no more than empty dreams. We are not
here to praise ourselves and to prove ourselves, the most disgusting in the
ordinary man is the ability to quickly satisfy his flesh.

The majority of people find many excuses not to work on themselves. They are
in a complete prison of their weaknesses. But right now we do not speak
about them, but about you.

Understand me right, I do not need followers, I am rather interested in
finding the good organizers, the real warriors of the new world. I
understand the weakness of the organization, because right now we do not
speak about the usual organisation which would consist of initiates.

I remind you once again, learn to live each of your hours with a bigger
benefit. Create a detailed plan of the last hour of your life. To understand
how one should die, you should grow deep roots into life, only then you will
be able to die like a human being, not like a dog. Although, it is not given
to everyone - to die. You can become manure for our planet, but it does not
really mean do die. To die to this world forever - is an honour. For this
honour you have to pay with Conscious Labour and Intentional Suffering. You
have to earn this right.

Try to imagine yourself relatively clearly the last hour of your life on
earth. Write a kind of a script of this last hour, as if you were writing
the script for a film. Ask yourself: "Is this how I want to dispose my life"
. If you are not satisfied with the answer, rewrite the script until you
like it.

Look at life like at business. Time is your money for life . When you came
into this world, a definite amount of money was given to you and this you
cannot exceed. Time is the only currency with which you pay for your life.
Now you see, how you used the biggest part of it in a stupid way. You have
not even reached the main goal of life - to have rest. You failed as a
businessman, and as a user of life - you deceived yourself. All your life
you thought that everything is given to you for free, and now suddenly you
discovered that - it is not free. You pay for using the time, that is why
each moment of your stay here costs something.

So how would it be possible for you to reimburse at least somehow these
losses? Check, if the deficit on your bank account is only temporary or is
it perhaps constant? Did you loose the time or could you invest it
succesfully? If you have spent all your money on vacations, then there is
nothing to do but to be sorry about the past.

For many years you have been spending you life as if your parents gave you a
bank account with unlimited credit. But now the amount is used and you see
that you are all alone and that there is none to rely on. There is no more
time on your bank account. Now you are forced to earn each hour of your
life. All your life you behaved like a child and spent time just like a
newly married couple on their honeymoon.

Our main enemy, which is hindering us from applying the necessary efforts -
is hopelessness. I know, you will have many excuses not to prepare yourself
for the last hour of your life. The habit is a big force, but starting once,
you can learn to do each time more and more.

Do not fiddle all day, force yourself at least one hour a day to make an
effort, otherwise you will loose everything. Think about the rehearsal of
your last hour as if it was ballet exercises - you have to do it all your
life.

I dedicate four hours a day for this exercise, but when I was young, I spent
on it two times longer.

Translation from Russian by Alexandra Kharitonova, with free English
rendering by Reijo Oksanen - unearthed by Ilya Kotz & Avi Solomon of the
Jerusalem Nyland Group
 
Inti said:
To me, it seems my long-term memory is relatively good, but short-term memory poorer. It is frustrating because I often read books and almost entirely forget them, even if I found them really interesting and enjoyable at the time (that I can remember!). I am also seeing that my memory is better with "visual" books - I don't mean books with pictures but material that conjures up strong images...almost ironically, material that seems to play on the power of imagination. Perhaps this is why folktales/myths/poetry have a much stronger effect on me.
With those visual-thought-intense books, I think the difference stems from that the part of your machine that would otherwise drift into irrelevant activity and take your focus and attention with it is instead occupied with the material, meaning that you "keep hold" of it and that it therefore remains in short-term memory instead of being displaced by irrelevant data.

Inti said:
Is it more testing to be among hypnotizers and fight sleep than to be in an environment that seems to do that for you? Or can it be dangerous if you are not well enough prepared? Is there a way of knowing which is best for you?
My take on it would be that it gives a choice - to Work and struggle for awakenness, or go with the flow and sleep. It puts us face to face with our nature, which is lazy and self-serving by default, and which by this environment is allowed to express those traits, meaning that we have to struggle to do otherwise - if so inclined. This means a deliberate inner confrontation, whereas in an environment that forces you to pay attention, the mechanical nature is mechanically induced to do so without the choice offered in this environment.
 
Hi Inti,
I'm also still working on daydreaming.
What has been of help, is the book from Martha Stout Myth of sanity it goes into detail of dissociation and could help you to spot some triggers.

Myth of sanity p.27 said:
Plainly stated, [daydreaming can be] the case that under certain circumstances, ranging from pleasant or unpleasant distraction to fascination to fear to pain to horror, a human being can be psychological absent from his or her own direct experience. We can go somewhere else.
[…]
As the result of a daydream, this mental compartmentalization is called distraction. As the result of an involving movie, it is often called escape. As the result of trauma physical or psychological, it is called a dissociative state.

"Myth of sanity" belongs also to the big 4 psychology books recommended from QFS.

And from EsotericGlossary Imagination vs. Impression

Positive reveries [daydreams] are not much better, they also represent subjectivity and tend to separate one from reality, i.e. from being awake.
[…]
In the 4th Way sense we could say that imagination is simple mechanical recombination of existing contents.
 
Thankyou Pob for the Gurdjieff exercise on the last hour of life...I found it really beautiful. I have tried to live my life as if death is at the door for about 10 years, but I'd say I've never properly understood what being or doing means. Gurdjieff defines differently and gives me some matters to really reflect on. I have never come across these words or exercise before and I think I will find it really difficult! Do you practise it? If so, how did you find it in the beginning?

Csayeursost said:
My take on it would be that it gives a choice - to Work and struggle for awakenness, or go with the flow and sleep. It puts us face to face with our nature, which is lazy and self-serving by default, and which by this environment is allowed to express those traits, meaning that we have to struggle to do otherwise - if so inclined. This means a deliberate inner confrontation, whereas in an environment that forces you to pay attention, the mechanical nature is mechanically induced to do so without the choice offered in this environment.

I think the same Csayeursost, because it definitely feels more of a struggle where I am now. However, I'm also a little confused partly due to Castaneda's words in "The Fire Within", where he says that the one who has tyrants in his/her life is lucky and if there are none present they should be sought out. These tyrants, as I see it, play on our programs and mechanical nature, yet with the work give us the opportunity to observe those programs and question our responses. Can it not be the same with other external factors, other than people? At the same time, seeking out a tyrant seems a little selfish to me, like using someone for your own benefit. I don't know though...

Hi Joerg, thanks for suggesting "Myth of Sanity". I have read it, I think it was probably that book that made me question how much I do daydream in my own life. I thought it was an excellent book, very well written and insightful. When faced with trauma or pain or horror, I do not daydream (as far as I am aware I just feel the pain or horror). For me it occurs more often when faced with some situation I consider dull or repetitive that my mind just drifts off into a dreamworld. It is pure fantasy though and prevents me from being present and awake.
 
Inti said:
Thankyou Pob for the Gurdjieff exercise on the last hour of life...I found it really beautiful. I have tried to live my life as if death is at the door for about 10 years, but I'd say I've never properly understood what being or doing means. Gurdjieff defines differently and gives me some matters to really reflect on. I have never come across these words or exercise before and I think I will find it really difficult! Do you practise it? If so, how did you find it in the beginning?
You're welcome Inti.

This is not an exercise I practice but a description that, like yourself, I found beneficial reflecting upon. What I do try and do is break up my time into hours (as it does suggest) and try to set targets: e.g. Between 4 and 5pm I'm going to read through mail and reply to correspondence, 5-6 read through the latest SOTT mail out,the articles in full that catch my eye and add comments. 6-7 catch up with the forum, 7 eat...8-9 read...etc...So, no, I'm not thinking I'll die at the end of the hour, I'm thinking 'was my last hour productive?'. Of course it doesn't always go to plan, I'll take short breaks in between and some areas may require more time. The point is though that by focusing on DOing it leaves little time to daydream and procrastinate. It takes time but it I've found this strategy useful. After a while you find being idle and wasting time is frustrating.
 
I'm having trouble fully understanding the difference between daydreaming and dissociation. I'm currently reading 'The myth of Sanity' by Stout, and it's painfully clear to me, that I'm very often in a dissociative state, most likely due to childhood trauma.

I too, like Inti, have problems with memory. I just have problems with both long term and short term memory. I can only remember fragments of my childhood, and when I read a book or see a film, it's gone from my memory a couple of days later. As Martha Stout writes about in the book, I'm just not THERE, I'm somewhere else.

I just always thought I was very into daydreaming as it was, and that got me thinking, what's the difference between the two concepts? I'm not English native, and I'm struggling a bit with the words here :)
Maybe there's no real important difference, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Inti said:
When reading I find it helps me to write things down - usually either things I feel I need to give further thought to or things I feel are important. I think it is probably the repetition, slowing-down and focus that helps here. Does anyone know of any other techniques that might be useful for memory?

Keeping a journal is very helpful IMO. It helps me actually remember what I'm reading.
I used to keep a diary, writing down thoughts and feelings, and that helped me BE there, present in my life.

I think I oughta take that journal business up again! :)
 
I understand that daydreaming consists in part of dissociation (a reaction to negative events), and also of the subjective imaginations, wishes and hopes that run amok in mind. Like for an example, you may go into a fantasy about how people will respond to a project at work or school, like give a big applause and commend you and so on. You may even daydream more "consciously", for example you may imagine that you have realized a higher level of being and more objective level of understanding than you in reality have. All in all, mind can create a sort of scenario out of your everyday life and it will play things out, often jumping from one scenario to another by the mere force of association. That is, essentially, how I see it, though I'm hard pressed to come up with more tangible explanation.

On poor memory, I remember Laura saying in some of her posts that heavy metal toxicity (or some other toxicity, I have poor memory of my own and can't remember what it exactly said) can attribute to poor memory.

Anyway, I'm sure search will yield some more info on these areas.
 
Helle said:
I'm having trouble fully understanding the difference between daydreaming and dissociation. I'm currently reading 'The myth of Sanity' by Stout, and it's painfully clear to me, that I'm very often in a dissociative state, most likely due to childhood trauma.
Daydreaming, in short - to my understanding - can be one of the expressions of - or behaviors resulting from - dissociation. But it isn't the only one; in that book, you will come to an example eventually of emotional dissociation - where as a result, the person (in that case when put in a triggering situation) simply doesn't feel. Plain numbness - that would be another. (and on that note, you might've read some people here - including me - speak of having a "sleeping emotional center", meaning not quite feeling everything, not at full capacity - this emotional sleep also being emotional dissociation)
 
Hi Helle,

Helle said:
I just always thought I was very into daydreaming as it was, and that got me thinking, what's the difference between the two concepts? I'm not English native, and I'm struggling a bit with the words here
Maybe there's no real important difference, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Maybe it's of help:

New Oxford American Dictionary said:
daydream |ˈdeɪdriːm|

noun
a series of pleasant thoughts that distract one's attention from the present.

verb [ intrans. ]
indulge in such a series of thoughts : stop daydreaming and pay attention.

New Oxford American Dictionary said:
dissociation |dɪˈsəʊʃɪˈeɪʃ(ə)n| |-sɪ-|

noun
the disconnection or separation of something from something else or the state of being disconnected : the dissociation between the executive and the judiciary is the legacy of the Act of Settlement.
• Chemistry the splitting of a molecule into smaller molecules, atoms, or ions, esp. by a reversible process.
• Psychiatry separation of normally related mental processes, resulting in one group functioning independently from the rest, leading in extreme cases to disorders such as multiple personality [or as Martha Stout states in her book Dissociative Identity Disorder]
 
Here's one excerpt from In Search of the Miraculous about what Gurdjieff had to say about daydreaming:

Gurdjieff said:
"Moving center working for thinking center produces, for example, mechanical reading or mechanical listening, as when a man reads or listens to nothing but words and is utterly unconscious of what he is reading or hearing. This generally happens when attention, that is, the direction of the thinking center's activity, is occupied with something else and when the moving center is trying to replace the absent thinking center; but this very easily becomes a habit, because the thinking center is generally distracted not by useful work, by thought, or by contemplation, but simply by daydreaming or by imagination.

"'Imagination' is one of the principal sources of the wrong work of centers. Each center has its own form of imagination and daydreaming, but as a rule both the
moving and the emotional centers make use of the thinking center which very readily places itself at their disposal for this purpose, because daydreaming corresponds to its own inclinations. Daydreaming is absolutely the opposite of 'useful' mental activity. 'Useful' in this case means activity directed towards a definite aim and undertaken for the sake of obtaining a definite result. Daydreaming does not pursue any aim, does not strive after any result. The motive for daydreaming always lies in the emotional or in the moving center. The actual process is carried on by the thinking center. The inclination to daydream is due partly to the laziness of the thinking center, that is, its attempts to avoid the efforts connected with work directed towards a definite aim and going in a definite direction, and partly to the tendency of the emotional and the moving centers to repeat to themselves, to keep alive or to recreate experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant, that have been previously lived through or 'imagined.'

Daydreaming of disagreeable, morbid things is very characteristic of the unbalanced state of the human machine, After all, one can understand daydreaming of a pleasant kind and find logical justification for it. Daydreaming of an unpleasant character is an utter absurdity. And yet many people spend nine tenths of their lives in just such painful daydreams about misfortunes which may overtake them or their family, about illnesses they may contract or sufferings they will have to endure. Imagination and daydreaming are instances of the wrong work of the thinking center. "Observation of the activity of imagination and daydreaming forms a very important part of self-study.
 
Csayeursost said:
But it isn't the only one; in that book, you will come to an example eventually of emotional dissociation - where as a result, the person (in that case when put in a triggering situation) simply doesn't feel. Plain numbness - that would be another. (and on that note, you might've read some people here - including me - speak of having a "sleeping emotional center", meaning not quite feeling everything, not at full capacity - this emotional sleep also being emotional dissociation)

Stout also gives an example of a man whom she witnessed expressing emotional dissociation by way of throwing a tantrum in an airport. It's good to watch out for emotional reactions as dissociative behavior as well as numbness. It could probably be said that such emotional reactions are also a part of numbness as they are basically 'dead emotions' and not really living, but a reliving of past emotional events.
 
Los said:
It's good to watch out for emotional reactions as dissociative behavior as well as numbness.

It's also worth noting that we can dissociate doing very common things. For example, if one is so "into" a movie that they lose all outside awareness, then you could say that they are dissociated. The same can be said for music, books, internet, etc. IMO. Daydreaming is much like that, only it seems to be an internal experience. Their is nothing outside of us that is bringing about a disconnected state of awareness, unlike dissociation which can use external vehicles. Although I am sure their are examples proving otherwise in both cases. The old 'exception, not the rule' maxim applies here.
 
Pinkerton said:
Daydreaming is absolutely the opposite of 'useful' mental activity. 'Useful' in this case means activity directed towards a definite aim and undertaken for the sake of obtaining a definite result. Daydreaming does not pursue any aim, does not strive after any result. The motive for daydreaming always lies in the emotional or in the moving center. The actual process is carried on by the thinking center. The inclination to daydream is due partly to the laziness of the thinking center, that is, its attempts to avoid the efforts connected with work directed towards a definite aim and going in a definite direction, and partly to the tendency of the emotional and the moving centers to repeat to themselves, to keep alive or to recreate experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant, that have been previously lived through or 'imagined.'

... "Observation of the activity of imagination and daydreaming forms a very important part of self-study.



Defining my aim has helped me to daydream less. My selfobservation is going rather okay I believe, allthough I'm experiencing some exhaustion connected with it. Possibly because I'm used to being so 'asleep' during the day, and now I'm struggling to stay awake and alert and observant. It's actually very rewarding, and I'm getting better as each day goes. It's like I'm introduced to a whole new aspect of Life.

I don't know if I have a sleeping emotional center, I'm not that objective about myself just yet. I do know though, that I deliberately sought out absolutely numbness in front of my PC for many years, and waking up from that numbness is very painful to me. I'm very used to the dissociative state of mind. :cry:

Thanks for all the answers and explanations, it has been very helpful!
 
Csayeursost said:
in that book, you will come to an example eventually of emotional dissociation - where as a result, the person (in that case when put in a triggering situation) simply doesn't feel. Plain numbness - that would be another. (and on that note, you might've read some people here - including me - speak of having a "sleeping emotional center", meaning not quite feeling everything, not at full capacity - this emotional sleep also being emotional dissociation)
I read this part of Myth of Sanity today and oddly just then realized that this was exactly describing the problem that I have had. It often has been that I've witnessed some event that has had an obvious emotional element to it, but I just haven't felt the whole terror of the situation -or the joy in a positive event-. The last example would be the Queen's day incident in Holland about which I read here. It was, needless to say, a terrible event and I felt certain anguish watching the video about it but I knew that the normal reaction to it would be way more pronounced. On the other hand, I can feel sort of vicarious sadness for a movie character (only if I'm really into the movie though). It seems to require certain tuning, and definitely it needs one to participate in life more vividly for an emotion to be produced.

A thought also came to mind based on some self-observation in connection to that Queen's day event, that I only started to feel more of the terror when I understood that all those people there, most definitely children, were grossly traumatized for life, while some lost their friends and relatives and all that during an event that obviously held a special place in their lives. That tells to me of a certain tendency on my part to just read the event as "same old, same old in this sad and mad world" and wanting to just forget about it, while I suppose an active emotional center would immediately realize the whole emotional impact and meaning of the event in all it's interconnected nuances. And I realize, for my emotional center to achieve that, I need to be WAY more awake and in the moment, both intellectually and emotionally, to collect all the impressions that life sends my way.

I've found just reading and formulating helps to an extent with mental dissociation, though I expect meditation to be the bread and butter in this regard (too bad that I constantly push it till later, need to just do it). Is there any similar practise for dealing with the emotional dissociation that has been described? Or does the life generally handle that part, of sending impressions, and is it up to us and our lower centers to receive what we can in this regard, and that being active in life will more and more open our lower emotional center enough for it to start acting on it's own in the more subjective states of mind as well? Because it seems that everything that is achieved in this regard seems immediately lost if the "momentum" is not consciously kept.

Anyway, just thought I'd voice some of my thoughts on this... I'm sorry if it makes no sense or if I'm just rambling. If anyone reads it and has any further thoughts, experiences, corrections, sees a red flag or anything, I will appreciate if they share their impressions.

Helle said:
I'm used to being so 'asleep' during the day, and now I'm struggling to stay awake and alert and observant. It's actually very rewarding, and I'm getting better as each day goes. It's like I'm introduced to a whole new aspect of Life.
Yup, and this feeling of a new aspect of life seems to me to be a proof that all this is going somewhere! I spent so much time just reading and daydreaming that I was doing the Work and sometimes that I was a doomed failure at it, but it was only when the ideas for reasons and benefits of self-observing started to take root that I began to actually do it. And I'm just constantly blown away of how something in ISOTM or The Wave that earlier didn't make sense or I thought "was stupid" (yeah, I was actually thinking that I know some things way better than either Gurdjieff or Laura :rolleyes:) starts to affirm just about everything else in the whole network of contexts and concepts that we deal with here. It is only a question of how much I want to be Objective and how much I really want to change. Dissatisfaction with the old is a great propellant.
 
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