Consciousness/Conscience: traduction

[Zadig]

Bonjour,

Dans FOTCM Statement of Principles, je lis page 5 :

Consciousness - being the Root and driving force of Creation with Truth being its objective. Consciousness is self-referential, and so it is difficult to clearly define. This self-referential problem is the single distinction that makes consciousness different from other ―things. That being so, we can define consciousness as ―that which can create, store, and manipulate ideas.

Et:

Conscience - being the primary, fundamental instrument – or ―organ – by which humans can access higher states of consciousness that are not aligned with non-Being, Evil, Service to Self, Destruction, Devolution, Darkness.

Malheureusement, les dictionnaires de traduction ne donnent aucune différence entre ces deux termes, et les traduisent par : conscience.

Philippe Lavastine traducteur de Fragments d’un enseignement inconnu, Ouspensky,Stock, 2003, remarque page 225 :

L’absence de termes adéquats nous oblige à traduire consciousness par « intuition intellectuelle » et conscience par « conscience morale ».

Est-ce bien cette même traduction qui vaut pour la déclaration des principes de la confrérie ?

English: problem to translate the words consciousness and conscience in french, because in the Bilingual dictionary, the two words are translated by: conscience.

 

[Adaryn]

Hi Zadig,

Bonjour,

Dans FOTCM Statement of Principles, je lis page 5 :

Consciousness - being the Root and driving force of Creation with Truth being its objective. Consciousness is self-referential, and so it is difficult to clearly define. This self-referential problem is the single distinction that makes consciousness different from other ―things. That being so, we can define consciousness as ―that which can create, store, and manipulate ideas.

Et:

Conscience - being the primary, fundamental instrument – or ―organ – by which humans can access higher states of consciousness that are not aligned with non-Being, Evil, Service to Self, Destruction, Devolution, Darkness.

Malheureusement, les dictionnaires de traduction ne donnent aucune différence entre ces deux termes, et les traduisent par : conscience.

Philippe Lavastine traducteur de Fragments d’un enseignement inconnu, Ouspensky,Stock, 2003, remarque page 225 :

L’absence de termes adéquats nous oblige à traduire consciousness par « intuition intellectuelle » et conscience par « conscience morale ».

Est-ce bien cette même traduction qui vaut pour la déclaration des principes de la confrérie ?

English: problem to translate the words consciousness and conscience in french, because in the Bilingual dictionary, the two words are translated by: conscience.

Indeed, that's a bit tricky since in French, we both use "conscience" to define "moral sense" (conscience in English) and "consciousness" (conscience de soi, connaissance, perception de).
See these translations here:
http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/consciousness
http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/conscience

I think Lavastine's terms would be correct choices for the translation of consciousness and conscience in the "principes de la communauté de l'esprit cosmique". ;)

1/ Conscience (consciousness):
La conscience est la faculté mentale d'appréhender de façon subjective les phénomènes extérieurs (par exemple, sous la forme de sensations) ou intérieurs (tels que ses états émotionnels) et plus généralement sa propre existence. Si je suis triste, heureux et que je me rends compte que je suis triste ou heureux, par exemple, je prends conscience de mes états affectifs. L'un des grands défis des neurosciences cognitives contemporaines est l'étude de ce qu'on appelle les corrélats neuronaux de la conscience , c'est-à-dire les mécanismes qui permettent au cerveau de réaliser cette faculté.

2/ Conscience (eng. conscience): [there's no French entry on Wikipédia!]
Sens moral, jugement de valeur de ses propres actes.

La notion de conscience en philosophie
Le mot français conscience souffre d'une ambiguïté dont semblent indemnes ses équivalents dans d'autres langues. Il y a d'une part le sens moral, dominant jusqu'au XVIe siècle, correspondant à conscience dans la langue anglaise (allemand: Gewissen), sens qu'on trouve dans des expressions comme «avoir bonne - ou mauvaise - conscience», «en votre âme et conscience», «avoir la conscience tranquille», «conscience professionnelle», «objection de conscience», «cas de conscience». La conscience, en ce sens, c'est la propriété qu'aurait l'esprit humain de distinguer immédiatement et spontanément le bien du mal; pour qui en défend l'existence, la conscience morale se manifesterait entre autres sous la forme de la voix morale qui défend ou commande, par laquelle nous jugerons de la valeur morale de nos actes futurs, ou par ce retour à soi par lequel nous évaluons nos actes passés, dans la joie (la conscience «en paix»: satisfaction morale) ou la douleur (le remords). Mais peut-être cette conscience morale n'a-t-elle rien de spontané ni d'inné chez ceux qui en seraient dotés: peut être n'est-elle qu'une intériorisation, dans le cas des éducations morales réussies, des normes morales extérieures.
Le second sens est dominant en philosophie depuis Descartes, et c'est à lui que les lignes suivantes se limiteront: il correspond à l'anglais consciousness et à l'allemand Bewusstsein, se trouve dans des expressions comme «avoir, prendre, perdre conscience» et dérive plus nettement du latin scire qui signifie «savoir». Le problème philosophique central est précisément de savoir ce que sait celui qui «a conscience», autrement dit quelle connaissance la conscience nous livre, et quelle en est la valeur.

_http://www.onelittleangel.com/sagesse/citations/conscience.asp

 

[Windmill knight]

We have the same problem in Spanish. A few years back I believe we (the Spanish group) agreed to translate 'consciousness' as 'consciencia' and 'conscience' as 'conciencia moral' (but correct me if I'm wrong and the consensus has changed).

 

[Chu]

We have the same problem in Spanish. A few years back I believe we (the Spanish group) agreed to translate 'consciousness' as 'consciencia' and 'conscience' as 'conciencia moral' (but correct me if I'm wrong and the consensus has changed).

That's correct. And in Spanish we have at least this difference in spelling (consciencia vs conciencia) that French doesn't have, unfortunately.

Lúthien, thanks for those clear definitions in French. In some contexts, I think it would be clear to use two different terms like we did in Spanish.

Conscience = consciousness
Conscience morale = conscience

Another tricky one is Awareness. In Spanish we had trouble translating this word. I believe we decided to translate it a as "estado de alerta", "toma de consciencia" depending on the context. That would be "état d'alerte" (this one may have a different connotation, though), "prise de conscience", "étre conscient de quelque chose", or synonyms of those. Is that what you chose?

 

[Adaryn]

That's correct. And in Spanish we have at least this difference in spelling (consciencia vs conciencia) that French doesn't have, unfortunately.

Lúthien, thanks for those clear definitions in French. In some contexts, I think it would be clear to use two different terms like we did in Spanish.

Conscience = consciousness
Conscience morale = conscience

I agree, though we might have to adapt depending on the context.

Another tricky one is Awareness. In Spanish we had trouble translating this word. I believe we decided to translate it a as "estado de alerta", "toma de consciencia" depending on the context. That would be "état d'alerte" (this one may have a different connotation, though), "prise de conscience", "étre conscient de quelque chose", or synonyms of those. Is that what you chose?

Oh yeah "awareness" is a really tricky one :/ Most of the time we try to use "prise de conscience", I believe, but in some contexts it doesn't sound well, so sometimes we leave "conscience". "Attention" or "perception" might fit in some contexts, I think. I see wordreference also proposes "connaissance" which might work too… again, depending on context :)
http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/awareness

 

[Eboard10]

It's good that you have clarified this issue. I have also had problems trying to distinguish linguistically terms such as consciousness,conscience and awareness in italian. For some reason the latin based languages use the same word for these different concepts. I wonder why...

 

[Don Genaro]

We have the same problem in Spanish. A few years back I believe we (the Spanish group) agreed to translate 'consciousness' as 'consciencia' and 'conscience' as 'conciencia moral' (but correct me if I'm wrong and the consensus has changed).

That's correct. And in Spanish we have at least this difference in spelling (consciencia vs conciencia) that French doesn't have, unfortunately.

Adaryn, thanks for those clear definitions in French. In some contexts, I think it would be clear to use two different terms like we did in Spanish.

Conscience = consciousness
Conscience morale = conscience

Another tricky one is Awareness. In Spanish we had trouble translating this word. I believe we decided to translate it a as "estado de alerta", "toma de consciencia" depending on the context. That would be "état d'alerte" (this one may have a different connotation, though), "prise de conscience", "étre conscient de quelque chose", or synonyms of those. Is that what you chose?

Ha ha,
I just came up against this problem right now in doing the translation for the FOTCM principles into Spanish so I did a Google search and ended up here! I've been translating consciousness as "conciencia" all the time and I just saw "conscience" appearing in the text and thought "Oh no!". So if I understand correctly, I should go back and change all instances of "consciousness" to "consciencia" and not "conciencia"? And use "conciencia" for "conscience"? Qué lío!

 

[Chu]

Ha ha,
I just came up against this problem right now in doing the translation for the FOTCM principles into Spanish so I did a Google search and ended up here! I've been translating consciousness as "conciencia" all the time and I just saw "conscience" appearing in the text and thought "Oh no!". So if I understand correctly, I should go back and change all instances of "consciousness" to "consciencia" and not "conciencia"? And use "conciencia" for "conscience"? Qué lío!

Lol! Yes, please. To be more specific, when you translate "conscience", you can use "conciencia moral", for example if it is a phrase about psychopaths and their lack of conscience (conciencia moral).

Both spellings (conciencia/consciencia) are accepted for "consciousness", I believe, but we always try to make the difference to avoid further confusion in Spanish.

It will always depend on the context, of course, so if you have doubts, don't hesitate to post about it on the translators' group.

 

[Don Genaro]

Got it... Merci beaucoup! :)