Child Psychopaths

[anothermagyar]

This is a fascinating thread, when comes to psychopathic or pathological behavior we have to be so careful to decide or even consider if a child is a psychopath.
I worked for years as a baby-sitter and once I had two boys to taking care of 3 and 5 years old.
They have a little sister. She was 3 month old back then when I started to work for their parents.
The 3 year old boy was especially troubled. The "middle child" problem.
He was violent, first night he bit me when I had to take him and help him brush his teeth.
He resisted everything what I said, fighted with his brother very angrily.
Then I told them not to hurt his brother, love him instead! He loves you and mama, papa loves you!
And poor boy bitterly burst out:
"No. Nobody loves me."
Then I realized he needs more attention and love from his parents, because everybody in the family were only swirling around the little baby and nobody payed attention to the boys.
My problem was the mother either was a fully narcissistic person or psychopath, she didn't even wanted to talk to me about this problem. Only the father was listening to me and tried to understand the children need more LOVE!
Need more quality time together, I suggested to him take the boys to movies or "boys night out" restaurant or whatever they want and talk to them and care about them.
Unfortunate the mother didn't wanted to pay me after a tough week and I had to leave, besides I had troubles with the mother's attitude before. - She told me once when I tried to suggest something:
"You are not a baby sitter you are servant in here."
I guess she could be a psychopath, but not sure.
I had a stressful experience with this family.
I never forget the day when I left Even, the 3 year old was hugging my knees and ask me not to go...
still feel guilty about leave them.
But I just couldn't work for their mother anymore.
I just hope the father pays more attention to his boys.
Sorry off topic!

But I have a question:
Don't you think if the child is "normal" or non psychopath react positive ways when he/she feels love towards him/her?
Otherwords you can build up a good connection with the right care and love teaching them during play and entertain also/learning is fun!/
When they feel emotionally safe, of course if they have!, they stop to behaving violent or nasty.
What about essential psychopaths? They don't understand love and a child still didn't developed to pretend feelings yet.

Could it be the measure of decide who is pathological or not how the child react for love and care?

 

[Laura]

On the topic of a five year old being able to be left alone for a few minutes, well... not really. I can tell you that, even with me crawling around our house and child-proofing, my kids still managed to "pour out" enough stuff to sink a battleship.

My eldest got up early one morning... I was groggy and thought "oh, she'll play nicely - I can sleep a few more minutes.."

After awhile, I realized that I couldn't hear her in the living room anymore, so I got up. There she was in the kitchen, happily preparing to bake. She had climbed up on a chair, gotten down bowls, measuring cups, spoons, flour, sugar, salt, baking syrup, cocoa... you name it. The whole kitchen was a disaster because she had spilled stuff. Eggs were in the bowl with broken shells... yikes! What was I going to do? I couldn't be angry at her because it was just so cute, but I had to let her know that she needed to have a LITTLE bit of help to cook because she didn't have enough experience to know how things mixed together and how some things could hurt her.

Then, there was the child that was fascinated by pouring/putting things in the toilet and flushing it just to see what would happen. No, no kittens, but yes, LOTS of bath oils, body washes, shampoos, hair curlers, legos, etc.

I learned pretty quick that you really do have to be right there ALL the time, and paying attention, even if you have "child-proofed" the house.

A word about child-proofing. It is safer for the child, safer for your stuff, and a lot better if you don't have to spend all your time saying "no." The child should not be hearing "no" as the most frequent response to everything he does. With a small child in the house, just put stuff that can be broken or can hurt the child OUT OF REACH. And especially, chemicals, cleaning stuff, medicines, etc.

Remember, Knowledge Protects and accidents are only failures of knowledge application.

 

[Buddy]

The first thing I do when I take a small child/grandchild into the home of another adult (who is expecting the arrival of small children, by the way) is to look around their house. I can tell if any thought has been put into child-proofing. It's frustrating to know that grown human beings would prefer to spend most of their time saying No!, Leave that alone!, Put that down now!, don't touch that!, Why can't you mind? ...and on and on...and then put up with the child's emotional frustrations afterwards, then to spend a little thought trying to make a pleasant experience for the child.

My wife and I are known to spend an entire afternoon childproofing our home in anticipation of a weekend visit from the grandkids. I wouldn't have it any other way. The alternative turns my stomach because I grew up in that kind of suppressive environment.

 

[Laura]

My wife and I are known to spend an entire afternoon childproofing our home in anticipation of a weekend visit from the grandkids. I wouldn't have it any other way. The alternative turns my stomach because I grew up in that kind of suppressive environment.

So did I. I actually went through my house on my hands and knees and looked at everything from a child's point of view. I put things in the lower cupboards in the kitchen that the baby COULD play with... lots of plastic and light cookware. (That's why she thought she could cook by herself at five!)

My babies loved to take books off the lower shelves of the bookcases. I let them do it all they wanted as long as they didn't tear them. I also kept magazines and newspapers on those shelves and they could spend hours going through them. I also carried a very large handbag that held coloring books, crayons, small toys, hand wipes, pencils and paper, and so on.

I'll always remember an elderly couple that came to our table in a restaurant once as they were leaving. They had been eating as we arrived and got seated. The man said to me "I want you to know that when you came in with all these children, my wife and I groaned thinking 'oh, no! our meal is going to be ruined!' But that didn't happen. I've never seen so large a group of children so well-behaved and with such good manners AND looking so happy in my life. Whatever you are doing, my hat is off to you. It was a pleasure to sit at a table next to you."

Well, that was kinda jaw dropping for the guy to come up and say that. I didn't think there was anything extraordinary about my kids, I just took the time to make sure they weren't frustrated, felt like they had some choices in life, understood that other people mattered, and so forth. I also didn't take them to a restaurant if they were tired or cranky and expect them to behave when their physiology was not able to cope.

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

You know Mrs. Tigersoap, I'm also in Belgium. About a month ago, I posted a really unusual situation that occurred between my boyfriend's son and another kid. I had/have the same strange feeling about that child that you and others spoke about. I had no idea that kids were put into kindergarten so young out here. That would explain the odd behavior in the case I posted however...

Yes, that might explain the bizarre behaviour you are referring to. When children are put in day care so young, they quickly learn to dissociate, because the pain is unbearable (I'm left alone with strangers and nobody pays attention to my needs, etc.). Also, pediatricians here strongly advise not to get attached too much to your baby , since you will be putting him in day care in just a few months... They also tell you that baby has to follow your life, not the other way around, that you can feel free to ignore your child's cries (small babies are evil, manipulative creatures apparently) by putting a pacifier in their mouth all day long (How many poor little children have I seen with a pacifier in their mouth and a vacant, dissociating look in their eyes!!), that should you be too tired with this baby business, do not hesitate to take a week vacation with your husband, away from the baby.
But also, a lot of Belgian children are raised rather than brought up. I mean by that that the punishment/reward (not necessarily physical, mind you but that too, of course) is very widely used and is advocated by pediatricians, again. That system makes children blindly obedient to anyone with some sort of authority but who, once in a while, go berserk because of the pressure it entails and because of all the emotions that are basically smothered from birth.
It's a silly but telling example: when you wait at a pedestrian crossing in Belgium, when the traffic lights is red for pedestrians, nobody will dare crossing even if there is no car/motorcycle/bus/bike to be seen a mile away. They wait and wait until it is green. I get angry looks when I cross a dead street with no cars in sight...

Belgium defines itself as a neutral country, but it's really just a nice word for passive (like its dissociating population)

The trouble is that this way of doing is not limited to Belgium, it is widespread...

Hi Twisted,

I agree with anothermagyar, sometimes what supposedly psychopathic children need is just love. That, and the abilty to let their emotions out with people giving them attention and love while they are doing so. Maybe you can read The Aware Baby by Aletha Solter (_http://www.instinctiveparenting.com/flex/crying_and_emotional_release_in_babies_the_aware_parenting_approach/163/1), where she explains how to do it.
This 'technique' (although, it's just common sense when you think about it) has been repeatedly useful with very difficult children around me and with my daughter (who thankfully is not - so far!). But ideally the mother should be doing it with the child. But, if you feel like it and the child is OK with it, have a go.

 

[Adaryn]

Yes, that might explain the bizarre behaviour you are referring to. When children are put in day care so young, they quickly learn to dissociate, because the pain is unbearable (I'm left alone with strangers and nobody pays attention to my needs, etc.). Also, pediatricians here strongly advise not to get attached too much to your baby , since you will be putting him in day care in just a few months...

That's horrible :O Why having a baby in the 1st place if you can't/don't want to take care of them?

They also tell you that baby has to follow your life, not the other way around, that you can feel free to ignore your child's cries (small babies are evil, manipulative creatures apparently) by putting a pacifier in their mouth all day long (How many poor little children have I seen with a pacifier in their mouth and a vacant, dissociating look in their eyes!!), that should you be too tired with this baby business, do not hesitate to take a week vacation with your husband, away from the baby.

This is really a narcissistic and pathological reasoning… but as you say, it's mainstream. About pacifiers, nearly all the little kids I see around have pacifiers. I'm far from being a good, perfect mom but at least my daughter and son never had pacifiers. I did buy some but they would completely ignore them, or just play with them. I think that kids who aren't nursed (who are just bottle fed) are more prone to be "addicted" to pacifiers. I for myself was bottle-fed and sucked my thumb till 6-7 years old. I had a cuddly toy (a hanky) too, which I would cling to most of the time. My kids never really cared for cuddly/comfort toys (we say "doudou" in French) either.

 

[Aidylsun B.]

There is truth in the statement that children are like sponges and that the first five years are the most critical in their development. And it seems, for the most part, that they are what they are taught, whether with intention or by their own little observations. But then, what about other influences, you know, the ones that happened before birth? I recently saw a program where a young child was diagnosed with multiple personality disorder and the parents realized that something was wrong when she was (as I recall) an infant.

We observe children from where we stand but we cannot begin to know where they came from, where they are going home to or what their life experiences have been. This was never more evident than when I worked with kids and realized that their problems were not always created by themselves and I often wondered what it would take to “repair” the damage.

 

[Laura]

There is truth in the statement that children are like sponges and that the first five years are the most critical in their development. And it seems, for the most part, that they are what they are taught, whether with intention or by their own little observations. But then, what about other influences, you know, the ones that happened before birth? I recently saw a program where a young child was diagnosed with multiple personality disorder and the parents realized that something was wrong when she was (as I recall) an infant.

DID can be better understood if one reads "The Prehistory of the Mind." I think that it is a condition that is common to Organic Portals, was common to Neanderthals, and other early hominids. It's kind of the default unless a person has serious soul potential. And even then, serious abuse can mess them up pretty badly and destroy that essence.

We observe children from where we stand but we cannot begin to know where they came from, where they are going home to or what their life experiences have been. This was never more evident than when I worked with kids and realized that their problems were not always created by themselves and I often wondered what it would take to “repair” the damage.

Probably a whole new generation raised with great care by those who have awakened.

I hope that some of you will start thinking about this and let's put together some serious standards for child-rearing to include in the FOTCM SOP.

Also, I really am astonished that a civilized country such as Belgium is supposed to be, allows/encourages or even endorses such primitive ideas about child-rearing. It's as though they are totally unaware of all the great work in child psychology that has been done over the past 50 years and more.

 

[Buddy]

Well, that was kinda jaw dropping for the guy to come up and say that. I didn't think there was anything extraordinary about my kids, I just took the time to make sure they weren't frustrated, felt like they had some choices in life, understood that other people mattered, and so forth. I also didn't take them to a restaurant if they were tired or cranky and expect them to behave when their physiology was not able to cope.

I hope that some of you will start thinking about this and let's put together some serious standards for child-rearing to include in the FOTCM SOP.

The following links may yield some useful information:

Birth without violence:

_http://www.soul-guidance.com/houseofthesun/birthwithoutviolence.htm

Community Parenting Centers:

The Parenting Place: (A concept developed by Robert McFarland, M.D. over a decade ago), described as Community Parenting Centers run by local people who could teach more humane childrearing practices. The cost? Since McFarland stresses local community resources and volunteer labor, very little. Even when he has expanded his parenting centers to include day care facilities, he expects a local sales tax of one-tenth of one percent to be sufficient to run the entire enterprise, a very small "children's tax" that would represent the community's commitment to invest in their children's future.
_http://www.boulderparenting.org/

And Hildegarda's most excellent FloorTime:

A great child-directed play approach is called FloorTime (\\\http://www.icdl.com/dirFloortime/overview/index.shtml , \\\http://www.mindspring.com/~dgn/playther.htm). It has originally been developed by Dr. Greenberg for autistic children, but has been found very beneficial for typical preschoolers and elementary school children as well. The basic idea is that you dedicate half an hour to an hour a day to sit next to your child and participate in her play. You only do what the child wants you to do, participating actively but providing no direction at all yourself. The links give specific instructions on how to do it and what to watch for, and tips for floor time with older kids.

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Also, I really am astonished that a civilized country such as Belgium is supposed to be, allows/encourages or even endorses such primitive ideas about child-rearing. It's as though they are totally unaware of all the great work in child psychology that has been done over the past 50 years and more.

Well there are little groups of people (mothers in associations, etc.) trying to change things, proposing evenings about babywearing, long-term breastfeeding, aware parenting, etc. but they are minorities and when they appear on TV (which is rare) they often are ridiculed as backward hippies. The few pediatricians who are open to these ideas are usually homeopaths rather than GP's. I had my experience with them, my friends and clients have had the same, when I go on forums, it's the same.
I think that it is in the interest of the PTB to have children brought up this way, so I don't think they really care about 'new' developments in psychology. As a matter of fact, my stepmother (the very narcissistic and snooty lady I talked about in a recent post) teaches infant psychology to future nurses. She always makes such a show of what she knows in this area and it's appalling: babies are basically meatloafs not aware of anything. And that's what she has been taught and will go on teaching, convincing generations and generations of future nurses (the first contact for the delivering woman after birth) that it is so.

Some hospitals are considered 'advanced' when they propose the mother to sleep in the same room as her baby! I mean, shouldn't it be considered basic, common sense? In other hospitals, the babies are kept in the nursery and supposedly brought to the mother when he/she cries (but usually they just let them cry and give them a bottle instead of asking the mother to breastfeed).

When I just had delivered my baby, I had to go to another floor to have an exam performed. I asked a nurse who would come and check on my baby while I was away. She told me:' Somebody will come, don't worry' but no one ever came and I had to leave my baby there alone. She was sleeping and I did not want to wake her up. I had to leave her there, it was horrible.
The exam took half an hour and I was so mad (I still am as I'm writing these words). Anything could have happened (her crying without anybody coming for her, someone coming into the room and take her, etc.). There is general carelessness about babies, not just in my country I think. 'They're just babies'...

That's horrible Why having a baby in the 1st place if you can't/don't want to take care of them?

Because for a lot of people (at least in Belgium), having babies (generally two) is what you do just after you got married, bought the house and the labrador. It's just something you do. If you don't do that, people think you're weird (For example I've only ever wanted one child and now that I have my daughter people ask me about the second one. I tell them I don't want another one and they just don't believe me. They start asking all these questions about my reasons. Once I went to my gynaecologist (she has a lot of patients and only sees me once a year, so she doesn't know me that well) and she asked when the second baby was due, I said 'never, I only want one child' and she said 'oh yeah, I remember you now, you're the person who only wants one baby!!'

About the pacifiers and 'doudou', usually kids who can let their emotions out regularly and are breastfed don't need them indeed. IMO These things are there to replace that, in fact.

 

[truth seeker]

(How many poor little children have I seen with a pacifier in their mouth and a vacant, dissociating look in their eyes!!)

and

But also, a lot of Belgian children are raised rather than brought up. I mean by that that the punishment/reward (not necessarily physical, mind you but that too, of course) is very widely used and is advocated by pediatricians, again. That system makes children blindly obedient to anyone with some sort of authority but who, once in a while, go berserk because of the pressure it entails and because of all the emotions that are basically smothered from birth.
It's a silly but telling example: when you wait at a pedestrian crossing in Belgium, when the traffic lights is red for pedestrians, nobody will dare crossing even if there is no car/motorcycle/bus/bike to be seen a mile away. They wait and wait until it is green. I get angry looks when I cross a dead street with no cars in sight...

Belgium defines itself as a neutral country, but it's really just a nice word for passive (like its dissociating population)

You said a mouthful with these statements! I've noticed all of the behaviors you've mentioned and it can be quite disconcerting. One thing I will say in defense (and I may be completely off here) is that they do seem to get it right concerning the issue of circumcision (in that they don't do it).

I personally think that pacifiers are one of many useless items that parents are brainwashed into thinking they need. All it really does as you said is enable them to stifle their feelings and dissociate.

I hope that some of you will start thinking about this and let's put together some serious standards for child-rearing to include in the FOTCM SOP.

It might be also a good idea to include something regarding childbirth as well. Not just in terms of diet, but also choices available to the mother that are the least physically, emotionally and spiritually harmful to both her and the child(ren).

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

You said a mouthful with these statements!

Yes, as you can see, I feel a bit frustrated with Belgium. :D

I've noticed all of the behaviors you've mentioned and it can be quite disconcerting. One thing I will say in defense (and I may be completely off here) is that they do seem to get it right concerning the issue of circumcision (in that they don't do it).

Although it is true that they are not routinely carried out, circumcisions in Belgium are on the rise : a rise of 37% in 10 years (but that number dates back to 2004 so it might be more now). To give you an idea, in 2004, 18 872 circumcisions were performed out of a total of 59 429 boys born that year. I think it's quite a lot, actually..
(The question of how much it costs to the State was raised in the Senate in 2008, that's where I take my numbers from).


Some people still think that circumcision is cleaner and it is pushed by some doctors. I was astonished to see several mothers on French-speaking forums saying that they did not want to have their babies circumcised but that 'medical complications had forced them to' (BTW I don't know what complications would ask for such an intervention but I'm no specialist, of course). So, I think that, as with many things in my country, it is done, and quite a lot, but 'covertly'.

I hope that some of you will start thinking about this and let's put together some serious standards for child-rearing to include in the FOTCM SOP.

That is a subject which is close to my heart, so I'm willing to contribute.

 

[manitoban]

When children are put in day care so young, they quickly learn to dissociate, because the pain is unbearable (I'm left alone with strangers and nobody pays attention to my needs, etc.)

One thing I've noticed at the school is the daycare kids are much more stoic, and passive, perhaps this is the dissociation. Some of the kids I know are in daycare for 10 hours a day. It seems such a long time.

I don't like to have my son away for even the entire school day and am lucky that at my son's school they have quite a long lunch hour so my son is able to come home for lunch for a good hour everyday.

. About pacifiers, nearly all the little kids I see around have pacifiers. I'm far from being a good, perfect mom but at least my daughter and son never had pacifiers. I did buy some but they would completely ignore them, or just play with them.

My son was the same, he was given a pacifier once, spat it out and that was it. But most do have them and I see three and even four year olds walking around with pacifiers.

 

[truth seeker]

Some people still think that circumcision is cleaner and it is pushed by some doctors. I was astonished to see several mothers on French-speaking forums saying that they did not want to have their babies circumcised but that 'medical complications had forced them to' (BTW I don't know what complications would ask for such an intervention but I'm no specialist, of course). So, I think that, as with many things in my country, it is done, and quite a lot, but 'covertly'.

In The History of Circumcision website, they have interesting information regarding how these practices were first implemented. I have no doubt that that's what's occurring here as well. More than likely, the medical complications excuse was employed when the women you mentioned started to object. Growing up in an environment where one is not used to pushing against the status quo, those ladies were probably unaware of what they were up against and felt powerless against it. Then again, who is really in a state to argue right after giving birth? It's a nasty ploy, really.

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

There's also a discussion regarding circumcision if you haven't seen it yet and are interested: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1515.0

. About pacifiers, nearly all the little kids I see around have pacifiers. I'm far from being a good, perfect mom but at least my daughter and son never had pacifiers. I did buy some but they would completely ignore them, or just play with them.

My son was the same, he was given a pacifier once, spat it out and that was it. But most do have them and I see three and even four year olds walking around with pacifiers.

Honestly, I think that this is a blessing in disguise. I once was a nanny to a child who didn't want to let go of his pacifier at the age of 3/4. At that point, it was cruel to try and take it away from him. No offense to anyone giving pacifiers to their child, but I think it's best for the child to never have one.

One thing I'd like to throw out there regarding daycare and school in general is that the parents or caregiver should be allowed to stay in the classroom with the child when they arrive if the child needs it. I don't think it does the child any good to be in an environment they are not comfortable in and then be left to their own devices to deal with a situation they had no choice in.

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Truth Seeker,

I agree with you. And women are so vulnerable when they have just given birth!! I will definitely check the site you are referring to.

Manitoban,

Dissociation, pacifiers and daycare are linked. Children, when they cannot express their emotions, can be difficult, depressed or they can dissociate or .. sleep a lot (after all, it's like fleeing in some way). It's a very good thing that you are so attached to your child, I'm really pleased to read that!

Laura/Truth Seeker/Manitoban,

I posted something about education for discussion for the FOTCM here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=14662.msg126863#msg126863.
Let me know if this is not the right place to do so (I thought that it would be of interest to non FOTCM members as well).