Big Brother: Friend or Foe?

Erna said:
Okay so let’s face it; the times they are a changin'. And let’s also face it; extreme circumstances requires extreme measures.

[quote author=SAO]
But what exactly is changing and says who? Other than technology, what is actually changing?
[/quote]

SAO, I think this where our different vantage points comes into play. For us there has been a change, from virtually crime free to abundant crime. Your ‘emergency’ (911) was manufactured to legitimize these measures. I’m still chewing on whether our’s could possibly have been manufactured.

[quote author=SAO]
I'm not sure things are any more extreme today than they were at any time in human history.
[/quote]

Yeh, human beings have always been cruel to one another. Yet, in this particular case, I’m not actually going so deep into things in my asking this question. I’m just using my own lifetime to make this statement:

[quote author=Erna]
the times they are a changin'
[/quote]

[quote author=SAO]
But I do see a lot of alarm over imaginary threats when such alarm suits the PTB.
[/quote]

Again, this applies to the US. Fortunately our media haven’t learned the word ‘terror’ yet, although, in our case, you can just replace the word ‘terror’ with the word ‘crime’ to achieve the same end. Same public hysteria, same programming, same outcry for something to be done. Only problem here, is that it’s not imaginary. Yet, whether it’s being used to achieve the same end, looks to be the case. So I’m still wondering how it could have been ‘manufactured’. But anyway…

Erna said:
It would appear to me that there’s no middle ground where control is concerned. You either have too much control (police state), or you have a lawless society.

SAO said:
I don't think laws are the only way to structure a society, even an STS society. I guess the analogy of parenting could work here. Some parents only know one way to control their kids - make rules, and then punish when rules are broken, and reward when rules are obeyed. But that won't create a psychologically healthy person at all, just a blind arbitrary-rule-obeying drone with serious anti-social and psychological issues and lack of any purpose or understanding or any development of empathy. That lazy and bad parent is our soulless social control systems - from our fascist law enforcement, to the concept and purpose of jails", to how/why our public education works, to all of the bureaucracy, to our government systems be they democratic, communist, socialist, or whatever.

I think a major problem is they are all mechanical systems designed to manage our society in template-like mechanical ways. There no heart, no soul, no consideration of context, no desire to instill understanding and empathy and love in people and for people. Nobody wants to help people or address problems at the root, its easier to just punish and attempt to heatlessly control and manage instead.

And here, SAO, you go from the assumption that we’re all created equal, which we’re not. Your above mentioned thinking will work perfectly in a society of souled and benevolent individuals.

SAO said:
If someone commits a "crime", so bloody what?

Mmmmm :shock:, I should send you one of our newspapers, you might change your mind on this one.

SAO said:
Maybe they are unhappy, maybe they have a problem or many problems, maybe they have no one to turn to and are desperate, etc.

Believe me, the how’s and why’s plague my thoughts constantly. I even tried to approach this problem from the “childhood psychology” point of view in this thread

I think here we have to make the distinction between varied types of crime here . When one reads the details of some of these crimes, one’s first concern is somehow not their problems or their unhappiness, all one wants is for them to be locked up and the key thrown away.

SAO said:
Why not look into it with the desire to help instead of desire to find the suitable punishment to "deter crime"? Help them address the whatever they perceive to be wrong with their lives, and provide means for people to get help sorting out their lives and being happy and finding meaning and purpose before they are driven to commit a "crime".

Unfortunately, in our pathocracy, this is only a distant dream.

SAO said:
Maybe stop brainwashing people since birth that money and material junk = happiness? Stop conditioning people to be so body-centric and so obsessed with image and internal considering, and stop criticizing people for stupid things like their "image" and making it senseless and impossible to feel good about yourself and have a self esteem worth crap? I could go on and on, but I think what I'm simply trying to say is that there is no problem with people and there never was - people are being "broken" from birth by the psychopathic system, which creates the "problem", and then creates a totally fake and pointless "solution" that only maintains and makes the problem grow. The whole system we're subjected to from birth to death is dirt, it is soul-killing garbage and always has been.

I agree with you, but we are an STS society, and the way things are is a natural result of STS, I think. Me-me-me, I-I-I, I want, I don’t want etc.

SAO said:
And also don't let them convince you that it is hard to change it. The only hard part is getting through to people who have been "broken" by the system.

Which is everybody, SAO, in varying degrees.

SAO said:
Our economy is an illusion, there is no reason why "economy" should ever suffer because the resources of this planet don't go anywhere so how can people suddenly starve?

Well, the resources don’t go anywhere, but the people are growing in number. Although I think we are nowhere near the point where we have to fight for resources. I still say Africa can feed itself, in fact, Africa can feed the planet. But it’s pointless to think of things in such terms as long as the instability is maintained.

SAO said:
Even if all money suddenly spontaneously combusted into the hellfire that it came from, how can that possibly result in people being unable to "afford" to survive?

Well I can tell you one thing, as a born and bred city dweller, if you put me on a farm today with the most fertile soil, the best climate, and the best equipment, I will mess it up, cause I’m clueless. And that goes for the majority of people on this planet. That’s what people don’t understand about farming and growing crops. It’s an art. It’s an instinct. It’s either in one’s blood, or it isn’t. A boy farms for 30 odd years with his father before he takes over the farm, or start farming by himself.

SAO said:
The amount of food and resources on this planet doesn't change or disappear, so completely dismantling our entire system and starting from scratch should never ever result in a single person suffering.

What needs to be dismantled, is globalization for one. Another one of the psychopaths’ inventions. Import and export should be done away with. What comes out of the ground in a country, belongs to the people of that country. What is grown, stays right there.

SAO said:
I think after all is said and done, the only people who should ever do anything even remotely "bad" are pure genetic psychopaths - but only because just like a vacuum cleaner they just can't help but be anything else.

I think maybe it's unproductive to think of it in such terms, when the reality on the ground doesn't reflect this.

SAO said:
Yes, they suck, but that's ok, they can't harm anyone if they're not in control and are not given any weapons or means to harm, or any possible way to manipulate or deceive or trick anyone and therefore no benefit from even trying. But what to do with psychopaths won't be a big deal after they are no longer in power and the global system is changed by humanity, for the benefit of humanity. And I guarantee you that the phrase "crime rate" will not even exist at that point - when people are happy, loved, find meaning in life, and feel they are not alone or abandoned by the rest of humanity, or in need, or brainwashed by materialism and other deviant pathological concepts (religion? bigotry? racism? nationalism?), practically nobody will even have any sort of urge or motivation to ever do something that is currently considered "against the law". In fact, laws may no longer have any purpose or meaning...

Well since all these tools (religion, bigotry, racism, nationalism etc.) were all constructed long before you and I were born, and are carefully kept in place, and since we can’t change the current system right now, or at least in the foreseeable future, all we can do is work on ourselves, until we can hope to be able one day maybe to affect change. Maybe affecting change is not even our purpose, maybe we must experience this system as it is in order to learn and advance.

I also think you are maybe underestimating the psychopath's ability. In their tiny minority, they have manufactured what we are looking at (maybe with a little help from their 'friends').
 
Erna said:
For us there has been a change, from virtually crime free to abundant crime. Your ‘emergency’ (911) was manufactured to legitimize these measures. I’m still chewing on whether our’s could possibly have been manufactured.

I suspect that the lawlessness in Africa is manufactured by the same psychopathic elites, simply because it suits their agenda. When normal people are in constant fear for their lives, they don't pay attention to what the elites are doing.

As to how it could be done, i.e. turning a virtually crime-free society into the current one that you described, I think it is relatively easy for the PTB. A few specialized groups can create fear and disorder vastly out of proportion with their number, especially if the media helps. After the few "seed" groups have created the appropriate environment, the existing psychopaths in the population will just keep it going. :(

SAO said:
If someone commits a "crime", so bloody what? Maybe they are unhappy, maybe they have a problem or many problems, maybe they have no one to turn to and are desperate, etc. Why not look into it with the desire to help instead of desire to find the suitable punishment to "deter crime"? Help them address the whatever they perceive to be wrong with their lives, and provide means for people to get help sorting out their lives and being happy and finding meaning and purpose before they are driven to commit a "crime".

Considering the situation in South Africa that Erna described in this thread, I would suspect that not all of the crimes there are due to people's desperation or unhappiness. IMO, we should keep in mind what psychopaths are capable of doing and be careful not to project our emotion and moral values onto them. That's a common trap.
 
[quote author=Bobo08]
As to how it could be done, i.e. turning a virtually crime-free society into the current one that you described, I think it is relatively easy for the PTB. A few specialized groups can create fear and disorder vastly out of proportion with their number, especially if the media helps. After the few "seed" groups have created the appropriate environment, the existing psychopaths in the population will just keep it going.  :(
[/quote]

If have been thinking exactly along these same lines, and then I think "don't be insane!" and then I think "but what if?". And the media is definitely doing their bit. I sometimes think do they have to publish this photograph, or do they have to go into it in such detail. While reading it, I try to establish how much of it is syndicate driven, and how much of it is opportunistic. A tough one, this one.

Here's some results of that festive season clampdown I was referring to:

_http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2449266,00.html
 
Very interesting conversation.
While reading it I remembered a quote from one of the "frankists" I met while doing my researches on this crucial subject last year. Actually this character was according to me everything but a psychopath, Louis 'justice' Brandeis. He used to write this very interesting thing:
"Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen... If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy."

I found this quote easily, right now at this adress:
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quotes_by/justice+louis+d.+brandeis
 
sankara said:
"Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen... If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy."

I found this quote easily, right now at this adress:
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quotes_by/justice+louis+d.+brandeis

That is a crucial point. It is not only the example set by our leaders - who consider themselves above the law - but the fact that laws are passed which act ONLY on normal people and not on pathologicals.

I talked about this a bit in an article entitled "The Cult of the Plausible Lie":

As Robert Canup writes, we face a particular, even monstrous, problem in our world: that most of what we know or think we know is based on plausible lies. A person who is sincere and speaks the truth really has almost no chance against a plausible liar. Yes, I know that goes against everything we have been taught from childhood in the “Land of the Free and Home of the Brave,” but it is all too sadly true. We have been taught that "the Truth will always win" and that "anybody who believes a lie about you wasn’t your friend to begin with", and a whole host of other platitudes that actually would work in a different world: a world run by people who tell the truth!

But since our world is run by people who lie for a living, you might expect that they have set things up so that liars will always win. And that is, oh so sadly, the case.

“Our culture agrees on the signs of lying. Ask anyone how to tell if someone is lying and they will tell you that they can tell by “lack of eye contact, nervous shifting, or picking at one’s clothes.” Psychologist Anna Salter writes with dry humor: “This perception is so widespread I have had the fantasy that, immediately upon birth, nurses must take newborns and whisper in their ears, “Eye contact. It’s a sign of truthfulness.” [Anna C. Salter, Ph.D.] [...]

The double life is a powerful tactic. There is the pattern of socially responsible behavior in public that causes people to drop their guard, and to turn a deaf ear to disclosures. The ability to charm, to be likeable, to radiate sincerity and truthfulness, is crucial to the successful liar – and they practice assiduously.

“Niceness is a decision,” writes Gavin De Becker in “The Gift of Fear.” It is a “strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait.”

Despite the decades of research that have demonstrated that people cannot reliably tell whose lying and who isn’t, most people believe they can. There is something so fundamentally threatening about the notion that we cannot really know whether or not to trust someone that it is very difficult to get anyone – clinicians, citizens, even police – to take such results seriously. [...]

This is an issue that will never die. It seems impossible to convince people that private behavior cannot be predicted from public behavior. Kind, nonviolent individuals behave well in public, but so do predators, rapists, murderers, pedophiles and COINTELPRO agents who help to shape the culture in which we live. No, they weren't always called COINTELPRO, but the principle is the same. It has been used since time immemorial. The earliest written records we have are of "clappers" in the audiences of theaters in ancient Greece. What do you think the term "Greek Chorus" means? We have exactly that in the present day in the form of the mainstream media. Did you think that, with the power of the internet to reach millions of people that the "powers that be" would have ignored the necessity of installing a "Greek Chorus" on the net? "The chorus offered background and summary information to help the audience follow the performance, commented on main themes, and showed how an ideal audience might react to the drama as it was presented. They also represent the general populace of any particular story." Discussion boards are ideal formats for "Greek Choruses" as they can be vectored to "show how the ideal audience ought to react," and to "represent the general populace." In this way, the illusion can be created of a concensus when, in fact, such a concensus may not exist.

Polls are another example of Greek Choruses or Clappers.

Consider our legal system. Here you first have to ask yourself just what kind of people were in charge of the creation and shaping of our “social norms.” Now sure, everybody will agree with the sayings that “you can’t trust a politician,” or “power corrupts” and so on, but have you ever really stopped to think about that and what it must really mean?

Most people have heard of Ted Bundy; the serial killer who was executed in Florida several years ago. Not many people are aware of the fact that Bundy was studying to become a prosecutor, and that eventually he hoped to become a judge. Those that do know that fact see it as some strangely ironic twist - an inexplicable quirk in Bundy's bizarre makeup. It never seems to occur to most people that the perfect place for a psychopathic serial killer to hide in society is as a prosecutor or a judge; but I assure you that it occurs to the Psychopaths of the world. I would estimate that about 10% of the prosecutors and judges in the United States are in fact, S.A.Ps. The ONLY difference between them and Ted Bundy is that they were able to control outward signs of their Psychopathy until they achieved their goal of being in a position of authority. [...]

John had one overriding dream; to become a judge. Here was the greatest reward possible for a psychopath: to put on the royal robes of the judiciary - to become a demigod - to have others plead to Him and beg His indulgence, to have everyone rise in awe and respect when He entered the room, for His word to literally be law, to be able to create an almost endless amount of human misery, just because He could, to punish summarily anyone who, quite correctly, displayed contempt for Him, to have the power of life and death over people, to be granted the only royal title available in the United States: "Your Honor".

How brilliant of his predecessors to slip that one past the watchful eyes of the founding fathers - who sought to establish an egalitarian society free of the mental disease of royalty. There are, he reflected, no "Your Majesties" or "Your Excellencies" in this country, but we quietly fooled everyone into accepting "Your Honors".

'John House slept soundly. In his dreams he and his kind had finally succeeded in reshaping the world into the image they wanted: the dark ages had returned. Once more the plague swept unchallenged over the country side. John could hear the voice crying out in the mud street in front of his hovel: "Bring out your dead!"

John was in his glory. This was life the way it was supposed to be. He was the new Torquemada: randomly selecting anyone who was unscarred by smallpox for a session on the rack; since anyone who had escaped disfigurement had obviously signed a pact with the devil. Here at last was an era where John and his kind could feel good by comparison: with so much misery around him John knew he was better off than those he could see dying in squalor and ignorance. John reveled in the suffering of all about him. He did what he could to make that suffering worse; no agony was so great that John House could not add to it.'

It is difficult to believe that huge parts of society have been built with the guidance of the mentally ill; but they have been. The average person is heavily invested in doing things the way Psychopaths want them done, and is unaware that the things that the S.A.Ps have them doing are psychopathic. [Robert Canup, The Socially Adept Psychopath]

Richard Dolan has pointed out that those at the top will ALWAYS take whatever measures necessary to stay at the top, and when knowledge is power, that means that they will make sure that they are in control of what people know or think they know. The sad fact is that as a society gets larger and more competitive, individuals become more anonymous and more Machiavellian. Social stratification and segregation leads to feelings of inferiority, pessimism and depression among the have-nots, and this promotes the use of "cheating strategies" in life which then makes the environment more adaptive for psychopathy in general. Such individuals may begin their lives in the lower socio-economic levels, but they often rise to the top. Psychopathic behavior seems to be on the rise because of the very nature of American capitalistic society. The great hustlers, charmers, and self-promoters in the sales fields are perfect examples of where the psychopath can thrive. The entertainment industry, the sports industry, the corporate world in a Capitalistic system, are all areas where psychopaths naturally rise to the top. Psychopaths seek power over others, it's that simple, and they gravitate to any field where there is power: medicine, law, industry, politics. It has always been that way; this is nothing new. Indeed, they comprise a very small segment of the population with an extremely large influence. It is due to this influence and the plausible lie that they can magnetize normal, decent people to follow them. They can make social conditions bad so that people feel oppressed and abused, and then they can easily blame it on someone else and agitate the people to go after and kill others based on such lies. Machiavelli discussed this sort of system plainly and openly and it has been the system of power since Cain killed Abel.

So, consider the idea that the ideas behind our social and cultural systems – including the legal system – were created by people whose agenda was to control society so that they could stay on top. And think about all the many ways they might go about doing that.

These are the same people who set up the legal system so that people would “get what they deserved”

Now, just think about that for a moment.

Imagine that you are a person at the top of the heap who knows that if you really set up a system where people got what they really deserved, you, yourself, would be instantly replaced - out the door in an instant! And so, if you are not just intent on staying on top and holding power, but cunning also, you will do everything in your power to insure that you and your kind are in charge of setting up that system, and that you remain in charge of it. You would make certain that evil was blended into the social and cultural concepts so seamlessly that nobody would ever notice.

And that is, quite literally, what happened. The individuals “at the top of the heap,” who had gotten there by being the most vile and rapacious, then set about figuring out ways to deceive the masses all the while keeping their favor and adulation. They knew they had to make laws to keep order, and they knew they had to make those laws seem fair and reasonable to the masses of people or they would lose control. Losing control was the thing to be feared as anyone who has read The Prince by Machiavelli realizes.

And so, Machiavellian manipulators at the top of the heap were deeply involved in the formation of our cultural and social norms, including our legal system.

In the earliest days of this “legal system” there was a form of “justice” called “trial by ordeal”. An example of trial by ordeal was holding a red hot iron to a defendant's tongue. The plausible lie used to justify this behavior was: if the defendant was telling a lie they would have a dry mouth and would be burned by the iron - while a truthful person would have a moist mouth and would be protected.

The fact is a NORMAL person who is telling the truth would most definitely have a dry mouth from fear, while a psychopath, who is incapable of feeling fear, would be the one with the moist mouth!!!

Now, just think about that for a few minutes. [...]

Now, our current legal system is descended from “trial by ordeal” - and really isn't much different though it is much cleverer and simply not as obviously evil as that one was. You have already read a few examples above of just how the system works. As Anna Salter said, if she was accused of a crime, she would rather have a good lawyer than be innocent. That is a truly sad statement on our reality. Here’s a simple way to understand our legal system, adapted from the writings of Robert Canup:

Suppose that you are on a team that is engaged in a game and you discover that:

The other team gets to make up the rules. The referee plays for the other team. One of the rules is that you are not allowed to score - the other team is at no risk Only you can be scored against.

That is precisely how our social, cultural, and legal systems operate.

The conditions of our world are designed to create the maximum chance that evil will prevail and the good people will be punished by being good and telling the truth.

Punishing normal, decent, good people involves more than just creating a social system that acts against them. The system is designed to insure that these good people are subjected to as much pain as possible for the simple fact of being good and honest. An obvious example of punishing the innocent may be found in the way the victim in a rape case is treated; their reputations are dragged through the dirt - all in the name of justice of course. Note the case quoted above, of the fellow who raped his sister and her daughter and walked out of court after accusing her of being a mental case.

The system that controls our thinking is set up like the legal system. People are taught to assume that, in any conflict, one side is lying one way, and the other is lying the other way, and people can just form opinions about which side is telling the truth. They are taught that the truth will lie somewhere between two extremes.

That is a wonderfully plausible lie.

Canup suggests that, to see the evil behind that plausible lie, we must make a different assumption: let us assume that in such cases, one side is innocent, honest, and tells the truth. It is obvious that lying does an innocent defendant no good; what lie can he tell? If he is innocent, the only lie he can tell is to falsely confess "I did it."

On the other hand, lying is nothing but good for the liar. He can declare that “I didn't do it” and accuse another of doing it; all the while the innocent person is saying “I didn't do it” and is telling the truth.

The truth - when twisted by good liars, can always make an innocent person look bad - especially if he is honest and admits that he has faults. If someone is telling the simple truth, and the other side is lying through their teeth, the basic assumption that the truth lies between the testimony of the two sides always shifts the advantage to the lying side and away from the side telling the truth. Under most circumstances, this shift put together with the fact that the truth is going to also be twisted in such a way as to bring detriment to the innocent person, results in the advantage always resting in the hands of liars.

Canup points out that, even the simple act of giving testimony under oath is useless. If a person is a liar, swearing an oath means nothing to that person. However, swearing an oath acts strongly on a serious, truthful witness. Again, the advantage is placed on the side of the liars.

Proof is a familiar concept to those used to conventional logical thinking. However what passes for proof in cultural, social, and even legal terms often bears only a superficial resemblance to what would be considered proof by those who really use their minds to think.

For example: in formal mathematics, proof rules are established - postulates are set out and a structure is built based on the postulates and the theorem. Mathematical proof is pretty much inarguable: once a proof is accepted as true it is added to the pool of known truths.

In legal proof there is a set of rules and a theory which the prosecution presents, and attempts to prove the theory by clever argumentation rather than facts. Truth is not the objective. Getting other people to believe the theory IS the objective. However, the prosecution's theory is whatever the prosecutor believes that he can get away with based on what is known about the case, or what he can PREVENT from being known. What legal 'proof' does is serve as a structure for convincing a group of people of the guilt of a person, about whom they know nothing.

There is another significant difference: Mathematical proofs are judged by experts in the particular case who are free to study any and all information about the case. Legal 'proof' is judged by people who are guaranteed to be ignorant of the case, who are only allowed to study the information presented during the formal trial, and who are not even allowed to consult the texts for what the rules say.

Our culture is so permeated with this “legal argument” system that it extends into our daily experience: the one who is the slickest at using the structure for convincing a group of people of something, is the one who is believed. Very few people take the time to obtain hard facts by carefully studying any and all information about a situation.

What we see something here that is set up to deceive people by presenting a familiar structure which, upon examination, is a sham. And again, the advantages fall to the hands of the liars.

As Canup points out, in a courtroom, juries are prohibited by law from knowing anyone involved in the trial. If the defendant is a good person who is being set up and framed, people who know him well and who have had much opportunity to interact with him over a long period of time and observe him would have much more trouble accepting lies told about him. If the jurors knew the prosecutor and knew him to be a bullying liar, they might have trouble believing the lies he was telling. If the jurors knew the defendant, and know him to be a trouble making villain they might be more likely to convict him.

By the same standards, if a person who is guilty is accused of a crime that he DID commit, as we have seen above, it is all too easy to get off. Corrupt lawyers, ignorant "experts," and blind judges let guilty people literally get away with murder all the time.

But, none of the conditions conducive to finding the TRUTH prevail in a courtroom even if we have been brainwashed to think that we have the "best legal system in the world." It is not much different than "Trial by Ordeal," only the hot poker has been replaced by a system that works as effectively to the advantage of liars.

Here then we see the worst feature of the law: it is designed to make the world safe for evil people. In effect the law serves to take the horns away from the bulls, while leaving the lions their teeth and claws. Massive, overwhelming, advantage is placed in the hands of liars. Indeed, without the legal system insuring their safety, the world would be a much more difficult place for evil people.

Everyone knows somewhere deep inside, that there is something not right about our world. In fact, at the present moment, it could hardly be worse. But most people spend their lives avoiding that fact at all cost. The brutal truth is that the our social, cultural, and legal systems are all about making people helpless then hammering them without mercy - all the while involving everyone in the illusion that right prevails.

This is an issue that will never die. It seems impossible to convince people that private behavior cannot be predicted from public behavior. Kind, nonviolent individuals behave well in public, but so do predators, rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and COINTELPRO agents who operate largely to shape and vector “social norms,” or “official culture.”

The problem is, if there is a psychopath – or those with related characteropathies – who doesn’t know hot to keep good eye contact when lying, they haven’t been born. Eye contact is “universally known” to be a sign of truth-telling. The problem is liars will fake anything that it is possible to fake, so in reality, eye contact is absolutely NOT a sign of truth telling.
 
Erna said:
For us there has been a change, from virtually crime free to abundant crime.
But if you had a "virtually crime free" environment then I doubt that the very nature of the people in the area suddenly changed. Something in the environment changed to trigger/encourage crime, so I think it is still a superficial change and therefore could be changed back and made even better than it ever was, drastically reducing if not eliminating crime.

Erna said:
Again, this applies to the US. Fortunately our media haven’t learned the word ‘terror’ yet, although, in our case, you can just replace the word ‘terror’ with the word ‘crime’ to achieve the same end. Same public hysteria, same programming, same outcry for something to be done. Only problem here, is that it’s not imaginary. Yet, whether it’s being used to achieve the same end, looks to be the case. So I’m still wondering how it could have been ‘manufactured’.
I'd think it's the same way a revolution or massive blood lust for war or mass racism can be manufactured. I'm actually wondering the opposite, how could it not have been manufactured? If things were good, what went wrong?

Erna said:
And here, SAO, you go from the assumption that we’re all created equal, which we’re not. Your above mentioned thinking will work perfectly in a society of souled and benevolent individuals.
You may be right, but you also said that you went from virtually crime free to abundant crime. So it seems that from your experience its possible to run things in such a way that crime is at a minimal level without any kind of massive crackdown, or you can run things in such a way that crime becomes a huge problem and it would appear that a massive crackdown is the only way to control it. But if crime was "controlled" without requiring such a crackdown in the past, why not do it that way now instead of instituting more fascist controls as if they are the only way?

Erna said:
I should send you one of our newspapers, you might change your mind on this one.
I do agree that sometimes extreme measures must be taken after we've already messed up so much as a society that we need to subdue ourselves just to get something done. But if this is not coupled with addressing root causes, then its just going to be an endless cycle of crime and punishment instead of actually getting rid of crime at the root, osit.

Erna said:
SAO said:
I think after all is said and done, the only people who should ever do anything even remotely "bad" are pure genetic psychopaths - but only because just like a vacuum cleaner they just can't help but be anything else.
I think maybe it's unproductive to think of it in such terms, when the reality on the ground doesn't reflect this.
It doesn't, but I think it can with appropriate changes at the root level. I think greed and selfishness and materialism can be encouraged and conditioned into people just like empathy and love. Psychopaths can brainwash masses of normal people to go to war and be extremely cruel. Alternatively, those same people could've been very loving and peaceful had they not been subjected to such brainwashing. All I'm saying is that we could have a world that is "virtually crime free" without any need for totalitarian crackdown and removal of our civil liberties and other freedoms. The fact that they are selling this crackdown as the only option in light of plenty of evidence that it is not necessary at all already shows that this is precisely what those who benefit from suffering and chaos want, and that it is in no way for our own good.
 
SAO said:
All I'm saying is that we could have a world that is "virtually crime free" without any need for totalitarian crackdown and removal of our civil liberties and other freedoms.

Hi SAO, I have to admit to being a little confused by what you've been writing in this thread. It seems to be wandering into the 'wishful thinking' category. The main reason I think this is the case is due to the reality of psychopathic influence and control of global society. How - with the presence of psychopaths in positions of power and the resultant effects on that large segment of the population who is influenced by them - would you propose that we have a world that is 'virtually crime free'?

I'm not saying such a world could not exist - somewhere - but how are you logically making that leap inside your head to make these statements considering what you know about ponerological influences, OPs, narcissism and narcissistic wounding -- basically, with what you know about the reality of the current world we live in?

I do not think 'cracking down' or more fascist control is the answer by any means and I agree that these situations are usually created with time tested techniques that work on human psychology and desperation, but what I'm left wondering about is how you can make statements like the one above when the conditions for such a thing to be realistically possible are so far from where we, as a species, are at this moment in 'time'.

Again - not saying it's not how it should be, or even how it could be (or will be) at some other 'place' and 'time' - but in the here and now, how is it possible? What is your thinking on that aspect?
 
Anart said:
Hi SAO, I have to admit to being a little confused by what you've been writing in this thread. It seems to be wandering into the 'wishful thinking' category. The main reason I think this is the case is due to the reality of psychopathic influence and control of global society. How - with the presence of psychopaths in positions of power and the resultant effects on that large segment of the population who is influenced by them - would you propose that we have a world that is 'virtually crime free'?
Well, I was responding to a point that Erna made in her initial post about people readily accepting the DNA bill. It reminded me of RFID or ridiculous airport security or even the entire "war on drugs" or "war on terror" for example, and how that too could be sold as a good thing to people who are in distress from crime and perceived "terrorist threats" and so on. It seems that such measures could, in theory, have some positive effect if used by good people. But if good people were in charge of things there wouldn't be a "crime problem" to begin with. My point is that when pathologicals influence society to create crime, violence, misery, and so on, it's probably not a good idea to accept solutions that would provide a superficial patch at best, but simultaneously give more power to the psychopathic government.

Is Erna's situation different enough that it actually warrants this solution, and would it actually work in this case? It just seems extremely unlikely to me. While I agree that somehow making the world aware of and collectively disempowering psychopaths is a really tall order, I'm not sure it makes sense to accept solutions that are much easier to implement (like the DNA bill) but may actually solve nothing and just make things worse. There's gotta be simpler solutions that don't necessarily involve getting rid of psychopaths, but also don't put us all into a government database either - but those would be superficial and temporary as well, if they even exist. Erna did pose the question of possible ways to address these issues considering the very limited choices given to us by our pathocracy (slavery but security, or freedom and big suffering/death), and since I know both of those options are utter lies, the stuff in my post is just the only thing I can come up with to avoid falling into the trap of accepting solutions from the system itself. Or in other words, changing things from the ground up on a fundamental level is the only real thing I can see that could work - and that would by its nature necessitate awareness of psychopaths and the nature of manipulation and lies etc.
 
Erna,
You said that you had a crime free society, and then 'abundant' crime.
Ok, It's true South Africa suffer a very terrible crime situation. But as to understand why there are so many crimes it may be important to go further and surely... back in time. The "crime free" society you refer to happened to have been an Apartheid society. A society that separate the races but also distinguishes between races. If we were to ask a black African, a colored (since Afrikaaners are Africans), if the Apartheid society was a crime free society, he would maybe say something else he would maybe even say: this society was a lasting crime, we have been deeply wounded, in so many aspects of our being.
Was a society ruled by psychopaths with 'Zionist white supremacist' myths really preparing a bright future? a crime free society...

I saw wouter Basson (a classA psychopath) in a documentary, he was not displaying any regret, any emotions. He was just mocking the people, smiling,dressed with an indigenous shirt. How many psychopaths have been reabilitated in a commission for justice which was human, but which didn't consider the facts of psychopathy. So reconciliation was rigged. To many plausible liars.

The European, Israelis friends of your psychopatic ex-leaders are the very same who are pushing this global nightmare on us. They are the very same people menacing France with the engineered "Islamophobia, antisemitism"...They cash on the security devices!..
Psychopaths have no definite complexion...There are normal people of all colors.
 
[quote author=sankara]
"Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen... If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy."
[/quote]

This is so true, and so applicable to SA society (and elsewhere, of course). I sometimes wonder how many people are left in our government who is not under indictment, from our suspended police chief and former Interpol president right through to our next president, Jacob Zuma, Robert MacBride, Winnie Mandela killing that boy, Stompie Sepei and all her fraud convictions and so on and so forth. I think it’s impossible to keep up with it all, and the general public just shake their heads and call it all a circus. So of course “it breeds contempt for law”. Following our politics gives me the same feeling I get when I read the “Grand Theft Economics” section on the SOTT page – what a tangled web they weave.

They are giving the stand-up comedians in this country a lot of material to work with though. And you can’t blame people for needing to open up some valve to relieve the pressure, be it comedy.

This cartoon is rather self explanatory:

_http://www.mg.co.za/zapiro/fullcartoon/2099

And Laura, what you wrote about the judicial system is also so true.

[quote author=Laura]
Everyone knows somewhere deep inside, that there is something not right about our world.
[/quote]

Even without knowledge of psychopathy, you have to be completely out of touch with reality not to have an uneasy feeling about the way things are.

[quote author=sankara]
The "crime free" society you refer to happened to have been an Apartheid society.
[/quote]

Sankara, I’m trying to approach this thing with as much objectivity as possible. This is turning a little political now, which might be dangerous ground.

So to be truly objective, warrants to go back in time, as you said. The quite recent past, as it happens.

What was done was inexcusable, I think we have consensus on that.

[quote author=sankara]
Was a society ruled by psychopaths with 'Zionist white supremacist' myths really preparing a bright future? a crime free society...
[/quote]

Of course not! I take all the possible causes into consideration, like the fact that up to 1994 service delivery was segregated. White South Africans enjoyed good service delivery, but for the majority of black South Africans there was little to none services and the services they did receive were sub-standard and very bad.
With the start of the new South Africa in 1994 segregated service delivery was naturally banned. The infrastructure that was build up over years to only serve approximately 6 million whites had to suddenly provide acceptable services to 45+ million people. This was (and is) a huge challenge. The entirely too small race-defined infrastructure experienced a great overload. This is not something that can be solved overnight or within the short duration of our 15 year young democracy.

Let alone the fact that they were also refused an education and that meant that 90% of our population was unschooled and illiterate.

We are also in agreement that Wouter Basson is a ‘class A’ psychopath. He’s a heart surgeon with a lucrative practice in Cape Town today. The fact that he walked speaks volumes of the scam that was the ‘Truth & Reconciliation Committee’. I hear he might be tried again though.

[quote author=sankara]
The European, Israelis friends of your psychopatic ex-leaders are the very same who are pushing this global nightmare on us. They are the very same people menacing France with the engineered "Islamophobia, antisemitism"...They cash on the security devices!..
[/quote]

Yup, looks like we’re all in this together.
 
sankara said:
But as to understand why there are so many crimes it may be important to go further and surely... back in time.
The "crime free" society you refer to happened to have been an Apartheid society. A society that separate the races but also distinguishes between races.
Reading this thread reminds me of the chapter on South Africa in Naomi Klein`s The Shock Doctrine, which explains the social worsening in economic terms.
Apparently Milton Friedman`s "ChicagoSchoolDisasterCapitalismSHOCKdoctrine" was put upon the new black african government by the US backed "banking system" unbeknownst to Mandela and his party.
When they finally found out it was too late. The new laws were embedded into the new constitution. The result was a powerless government with no money. The country`s wealth stayed with the old "elite".
 
No matter how you slice it, legislating CONTROL instead of education and assistance to the common people is a recipe for disaster.
 
If we truly try to be objective, the 'groung' might reveal itself less dangerous than it seemed, maybe because we take a higher position to scrutinize. Yes we are all in it, and I only mentioned the situation in France.
It has all been planed, for decades. I was raised in a suburb, I know it, I've seen it.
May we share this and give a little dance.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xso98_lucky-dube-prisoner_music

respect
 
Discussion boards are ideal formats for "Greek Choruses" as they can be vectored to "show how the ideal audience ought to react," and to "represent the general populace." In this way, the illusion can be created of a concensus when, in fact, such a concensus may not exist.

This is exactly what happens on the BBC News site in the 'Have your say' section. On each comment there is a vote button to enable the other (registered) posters to mark up the posts, as it were, by pressing an 'Agree' button or some such. A couple of years ago, we actually caught the 'moderators' in the act of changing the votes downwards if the post was anti-war, anti-MSM, anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian; anti-PTB, in other words. This made the 'general concensus' out to be pro-extra police powers, pro-Israel, pro-Iraq war, pro-Afghanistan war and especially pro-PTB.

I haven't been back there since.
 
They don't even publish my comments, which I'm sure doesn't quite coincide with "general consensus" :rolleyes:

BBC phoned me the one day on my cell to "find out how average South Africans feel about the split in the ANC and if we think the breakaway party stand a chance". Most odd. It was a long conversation since she had loads of questions. She said they’ll publish the opinions on the BBC website, which they never did.

Yes, poor Lucky Dube, another statistic. Some more home grown talent:

http://www.myvideo.co.za/video/just-jinger-what-he-means
 
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