Avatar by James Cameron

Guardian said:
Belibaste said:
Indeed. And this happy ending sounded to me like excessively optimistic and somehow misleading.

Yeah, one of my first thoughts was "they'll be back" :(
However, if the Natives (ANY Natives) can make stealing the resources COST more than the resources are "worth" to the invaders ...they've got a chance... abet a small one. The whole "Avatar" program was developed so the land could be raped as cheaply as possible. The total defeat of the invaders represented a HUGE monetary loss, when their purpose was material gain.

I think that you underestimate the nature of psychopaths. They would want revenge! They would want to come back and blow these "others" into oblivion. Yes, they want profit, but they need to be the ones in control, and if they love anything it is power and to destroy others. No, a little "setback" will mean nothing to a psychopath. They would be back with a vengeance.

Guardian said:
I was also encouraged by the fact that when they sent the invading forces home (on one leaky space "boat") they kept their weapons and other tech. Since the round trip would take approx. 12 years, the Natives have time to develop some additional defensive capabilities ....maybe something like a great big EMP Generator ;)

So you have a nature-loving populace that then turns into those that they ousted?

I think that out of the whole movie, this is what really bothered me. (Okay, I am actually seeing more than bothers me, but it is a work in process.) They suggest to meet violence with violence. However, when you are being blown up, this is hard not to do, I realize.

So this is nothing more than another Alex Jones solution to getting out from under psychopathic rule. It just doesn't work that way.

I'd like to suggest that those of you who haven't read it yet, to read this latest Sott Focus article.

The solutions are there, but they are not what we are being told. Remember, the psychopaths are working both sides and infiltrate any group that works against them.
 
Nienna Eluch said:
So you have a nature-loving populace that then turns into those that they ousted?

No, you'd have a nature-loving populace with the tech to fry every none nature-loving micro chip on the planet :D
 
mkrnhr said:
Are they still the same nature-connected people as before?

I don't think anyone is ever the same after a close encounter with evil. How could they be? Adapt or die. :(
 
Has anyone seen the latest South Park episode entitled Dances With Smurfs? :lol2:
 
For anyone interested, here's a 10-minute "making of" video describing the technical methods used to create Avatar.

_http://thedirecthor.fooyoh.com/thedirecthor_filem_topboxoffice/4340537
 
This one better suites the 'Tickle Me' section but have a read anyways :P

Spoiler Alert if you haven't seen the movie yet!

http://www.thevigilidiot.com/2009/12/25/avatar/
 
My English is awful, I since yet implore for `mercy´... ;)

Recently, a friend talk to me about the emotions that he has feld viewing Avatar, the James Cameron´s film.
He talked to me about the metaphysical link that the film`s indigenous had with their 'Earth' and the beings in their Nature.
Well, I then remember about something about another link with the Earth.
The history has presented in TV. by a man, an old engineer, that was de founder of de Weather Service of the Air Force in Argentina (Servicio Meteorológico de la Fuerza Aerea), i dont remember the name of the man, and i no have more data.
Well, anyway, this man, in the 50s or 60 was in Argelia. In these years was a terrible starvation. Historically, the people was well nourish. And what happen, then?
All the scientist was sure that change in the weather was the cause of it. Both, in America and in France (in colonial ocupation of the country) the scientist have NO cuestion about the topic.

Well, this good man go to consult the records of the country´s goverments (France), that was meticolous and relate in detail.
He look that has been NO SUCH weather changes in Argelia in long, long years. Long, long years that the weather was has been in a lot of time, with epochs of drought and epochs of humidity, all mormally occur.
And then...?
Well, the goverment change the traditional method of cultivation, that by generations has aplied specific knowledge in the field by the people, methods that foreseen the seasons and periods for storage in expect the cycles of droughts, 'manu militari' the goverment has imposed more modern methods, that in the long time has bring the famine to native people.

I think that this is a true link with the land, that almost would deserve certain respect.
 
Hi francopio,

Welcome to the forum. :) We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, and how they found their way here. Have a read through that section to get an idea of how others have done it. Thanks.
 
Interesting...I am reading Richard Dolan's second book "UFOs and the National Security State." In chapter 8 he talks about Bob Lazar. There is an alien element that supposedly provides power to the saucer called Element 115 which cannot be produced on Earth. It is jokingly referred to as "unobtanium." This is back in the mid 80s. This is the same name given to the element being mined at the planet in the movie "Avatar." Very curious indeed.
 
I have just seen the film in 3D. Visually it is stunning. I agree with those concerned about the effect of 3D films - I found it more engrossing and the visual stimulation and colours etc, well...I can see how it could lure people in to wanting to see life in this kind of 3D technicolour paradise more often.
So I agree with Tigersoap's words:
Tigersoap said:
“I may be wrong but this is where we're heading, living a 3d world within a 3d world, further away from ourselves, how many people now would not trade their daily life for a day in the na'vi world ?
The perfect artificial paradise indeed.
Millions are already doing it with online video games, so just sell new machines which allow total immersion and there you go...”
As to the story of the film, it does have an important message in that the military-industrial complex and corporations show no respect for other beings of all forms of life, it also suggests they have little understanding about it either. In the film, they laugh about the interconnections between nature and mock any suggestion of such. It can easily be seen as a metaphor for how indigenous peoples are treated the world over and how there is no respect for the land in their power agendas. The portrayal of the military commander who comes across as psychopathic and the corporate man with no scruples are fairly convincing.

SPOILER ALERT:
However, I found the main character really unconvincing and I disliked the way that it is the US ex-navy guy who is the hero and comes to the rescue of the Na'vi, and it is only he who can tame the wildest flying bird (pterodactyl-looking fire bird type thing), that it is he that is the 'chosen one' by the nature spirit...For me, this was just so hollywood it was nauseating. And then, of course, that the daughter of the shamaness & chief falls in love with him...
As that article said:
unlike “Dances with Wolves,” which ultimately asserts the superiority of the way of the native, “Avatar” doesn’t even attempt to hide it’s double-standard. Jake makes his last stand as the Great White Hope with the assistance of a wild bird and a sub-machine gun, effectively turning the narrative of the native into the narrative of the white savior.
The ending is also unrealistic. I too wonder about the notion that violence can only be countered with violence. And as someone pointed out before, being psychopaths there would be vengeance, not to mention the fact that in the real world, when they cannot exploit in one area or at one time, they go elsewhere or come back later...the destruction does not end.

For me, the most poignent parts were the destruction of the huge tree which is also their home and then the return of the military to target and destroy their sacred ground/tree/links to their ancestors. There I think was accurate and important recognition of the fact that psychopaths have no remorse and many will aim where it hurts most.

What I thought was interesting was when the Na'vi woman says of their spirit god/dess that it does not take sides, it is about balance.

There is a fairly interesting review of Avatar by George Monbiot here:
_http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2010/01/11/the-holocaust-we-will-not-see/

Monbiot said:
Avatar, James Cameron’s blockbusting 3-D film, is both profoundly silly and profound. It’s profound because, like most films about aliens, it is a metaphor for contact between different human cultures. But in this case the metaphor is conscious and precise: this is the story of European engagement with the native peoples of the Americas. It’s profoundly silly because engineering a happy ending demands a plot so stupid and predictable that it rips the heart out of the film. The fate of the native Americans is much closer to the story told in another new film, The Road, in which a remnant population flees in terror as it is hunted to extinction.

But this is a story no one wants to hear, because of the challenge it presents to the way we choose to see ourselves. Europe was massively enriched by the genocides in the Americas; the American nations were founded on them. This is a history we cannot accept.

In his book American Holocaust, the US scholar David Stannard documents the greatest acts of genocide the world has ever experienced(1). In 1492, some 100m native peoples lived in the Americas. By the end of the 19th Century almost all of them had been exterminated. Many died as a result of disease. But the mass extinction was also engineered.

When the Spanish arrived in the Americas, they described a world which could scarcely have been more different from their own. Europe was ravaged by war, oppression, slavery, fanaticism, disease and starvation. The populations they encountered were healthy, well-nourished and mostly (with exceptions like the Aztecs and Incas) peacable, democratic and egalitarian. Throughout the Americas the earliest explorers, including Columbus, remarked on the natives’ extraordinary hospitality. The conquistadores marvelled at the amazing roads, canals, buildings and art they found, which in some cases outstripped anything they had seen at home. None of this stopped them from destroying everything and everyone they encountered.

The butchery began with Columbus. He slaughtered the native people of Hispaniola (now Haiti and the Dominican Republic) by unimaginably brutal means. His soldiers tore babies from their mothers and dashed their heads against rocks. They fed their dogs on living children. On one occasion they hung 13 Indians in honour of Christ and the 12 disciples, on a gibbet just low enough for their toes to touch the ground, then disembowelled them and burnt them alive. Columbus ordered all the native people to deliver a certain amount of gold every three months; anyone who failed had his hands cut off. By 1535 the native population of Hispaniola had fallen from 8m to zero: partly as a result of disease, partly as a result of murder, overwork and starvation.

The conquistadores spread this civilising mission across central and south America. When they failed to reveal where their mythical treasures were hidden, the indigenous people were flogged, hanged, drowned, dismembered, ripped apart by dogs, buried alive or burnt. The soldiers cut off women’s breasts, sent people back to their villages with their severed hands and noses hung round their necks and hunted Indians with their dogs for sport. But most were killed by enslavement and disease. The Spanish discovered that it was cheaper to work Indians to death and replace them than to keep them alive: the life expectancy in their mines and plantations was three to four months. Within a century of their arrival, around 95% of the population of South and Central America had been destroyed.

In California during the 18th Century the Spanish systematised this extermination. A Franciscan missionary called Junipero Serra set up a series of “missions”: in reality concentration camps using slave labour. The native people were herded in under force of arms and made to work in the fields on one fifth of the calories fed to African-American slaves in the 19th century. They died from overwork, starvation and disease at astonishing rates, and were continually replaced, wiping out the indigenous populations. Junipero Serra, the Eichmann of California, was beatified by the Vatican in 1988. He now requires one more miracle to be pronounced a saint(2).

While the Spanish were mostly driven by the lust for gold, the British who colonised North America wanted land. In New England they surrounded the villages of the native Americans and murdered them as they slept. As genocide spread westwards, it was endorsed at the highest levels. George Washington ordered the total destruction of the homes and land of the Iroquois. Thomas Jefferson declared that his nation’s wars with the Indians should be pursued until each tribe “is exterminated or is driven beyond the Mississippi”. During the Sand Creek Massacre of 1864, troops in Colorado slaughtered unarmed people gathered under a flag of peace, killing children and babies, mutilating all the corpses and keeping their victims’ genitals to use as tobacco pouches or to wear on their hats. Theodore Roosevelt called this event “as rightful and beneficial a deed as ever took place on the frontier.”

The butchery hasn’t yet ended: last month the Guardian reported that Brazilian ranchers in the western Amazon, having slaughtered all the rest, tried to kill the last surviving member of a forest tribe(3). Yet the greatest acts of genocide in history scarcely ruffle our collective conscience. Perhaps this is what would have happened had the Nazis won the second world war: the Holocaust would have been denied, excused or minimised in the same way, even as it continued. The people of the nations responsible – Spain, Britain, the US and others – will tolerate no comparisons, but the final solutions pursued in the Americas were far more successful. Those who commissioned or endorsed them remain national or religious heroes. Those who seek to prompt our memories are ignored or condemned.

This is why the right hates Avatar. In the neocon Weekly Standard, John Podhoretz complains that the film resembles a “revisionist western” in which “the Indians became the good guys and the Americans the bad guys.”(4) He says it asks the audience “to root for the defeat of American soldiers at the hands of an insurgency.” Insurgency is an interesting word for an attempt to resist invasion: insurgent, like savage, is what you call someone who has something you want. L’Osservatore Romano, the official newspaper of the Vatican, condemned the film as “just … an anti-imperialistic, anti-militaristic parable”(5).

But at least the right knows what it is attacking. In the New York Times the liberal critic Adam Cohen praises Avatar for championing the need to see clearly(6). It reveals, he says, “a well-known principle of totalitarianism and genocide - that it is easiest to oppress those we cannot see”. But in a marvellous unconscious irony, he bypasses the crashingly obvious metaphor and talks instead about the light it casts on Nazi and Soviet atrocities. We have all become skilled in the art of not seeing.

Nomad said:
I guess London has it's own particular brand of unpleasant aura, being a major center in the Axis of Evil, and all that. (complete with wall to wall CCTV, and disturbing Orwellian announcements on the trains etc)
I agree! London has a very unpleasant aura!!

I'm curious about the Southpark dances with smurfs!! :lol:
 
Does anyone notice the war with Venezuela reference made by the Colonel when he was talking to the troops? - at the at the first 2 or 3 minutes of the movie -. Also there's a movie in production called The Expendables and the plot is about a team of mercenaries that head to South America on a mission to overthrow a dictator.

Are they acclimatizing the masses for a possible war with Venezuela?

THE EXPENDABLES is a hard-hitting action/thriller about a group of mercenaries hired to infiltrate a South American country and overthrow its ruthless dictator. Once the mission begins, the men realize things arent quite as they appear, finding themselves caught in a dangerous web of deceit and betrayal. With their mission thwarted and an innocent life in danger, the men struggle with an even tougher challenge one that threatens to destroy this band of brothers.
 
We just watched one of Cameron's earlier films, The Abyss, and discussed it afterward. Spoiler warning! The film is about a US nuclear sub that goes down somewhere near Cuba after encountering an anomalous object. The workers of an underwater oil platform are asked to help some Navy SEALs in checking out the wreckage and looking for survivors. One of the SEALs goes psychotic and, cut off from chain of command, decides to use one of the nukes on the sub to blow up the non-human intelligence they've discovered underwater. Ed Harris' character saves the day by disarming the nuke. Up until the conclusion, the movie is a pretty good thriller. However, the ending is ridiculous and even schizoidal. While the recovery operation is underway, Russia and the States approach a full on conflict with each side accusing the other of aggression (all spurred on by the loss of the first sub). So the "aliens" (who look like flourescent angel Grays (or Grayngels, as we called them)), who can control the form of water at the molecular level, create a bunch of mile-high tsunamis that approach all the coasts of the world pretty much. At the last moment they stop the waves. While this is happening, Ed Harris is communicating with them and asking them, Why? The respond to the effect that they don't like us hurting each other and want us to put away "childish things". Of course, all the "good guys" appreciate this loving response, and presumably the evil leaders change their ways.

What struck me is the simplistic, childish, and even schizoidal "moral" of the whole thing. To make an analogy, if the humans were misbehaving children and the aliens were parents, it would be like the parent running up the the children (who were playing with explosives, or something else dangerous) with a gun, cocking the trigger, saying "I'm going to kill you", and then putting the gun away and saying, "I don't like seeing you acting so irresponsibly. Change your ways, because if you don't, you know I have the power to wipe you out at any moment."

It really shows that Cameron has no clue. When trying to imagine what an "enlightened response" on the part of alien intelligences might be, all he can up with is a traumatizing authoritarian show of force by the more advanced party. How is that different than what happens on this planet as is??

So that got us to thinking about Avatar. It's not really an anti-war film, because it basically glorifies war. The natives fight and kill a bunch of humans to make them leave their planet. Given, they seemed "to have no other choice". However, Cameron was very clear at showing the natives didn't enjoy taking lives (e.g. the hunting scenes, the "dog" scene). But when it comes to killing humans, there was no remorse, no reticence, no disgust at the brutality of war. It was all "Let's get 'em. Yeah!!"

It could have been a good anti-war film, but instead it glorified violence as an acceptable means of conflict resolution, like most Hollywood movies. The viewers vicariously feel some enjoyment at watching the bad guys see their just deserts. More evidence of the paucity of moral depth to Cameron's imagination.

It also got me thinking that if violence serves any function in a work of art (whether literature, film, poetry, art, documentary), it should be to promote empathy and understanding: for the victim and the circumstances that lead to such conflicts, having to do with the emotional disconnect between humans and the conflict of types. War movies should be about the horrors of war, not its glorification. Those are my thoughts, at least.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
It could have been a good anti-war film, but instead it glorified violence as an acceptable means of conflict resolution, like most Hollywood movies. The viewers vicariously feel some enjoyment at watching the bad guys see their just deserts. More evidence of the paucity of moral depth to Cameron's imagination.

It also got me thinking that if violence serves any function in a work of art (whether literature, film, poetry, art, documentary), it should be to promote empathy and understanding: for the victim and the circumstances that lead to such conflicts, having to do with the emotional disconnect between humans and the conflict of types. War movies should be about the horrors of war, not its glorification. Those are my thoughts, at least.

Approaching Infinity, i very much agree with everything you wrote. Yet the question that can't leave my mind is: How are the non-violent, non-war loving people to fight back, for their lives, and the lives of those they love, if faced by violent and war-loving armed people who threaten their existence, their way of living?

If ever i, or someone i love, or somebody i don't even know but unjustly find themselves at gun point, or we are being threatened by drones, or some other horrific life taking weapon, i'd surely would like to have something to fight back! Some means, some weapons, something! Perhaps as long as the world is at the shape it is, it is inevitable not to use violence in order to protect oneself and others, as horrible as the idea of violence might sound to me.

I really hope there is another way, which i haven't thought of yet.
 
Alana said:
Approaching Infinity said:
Yet the question that can't leave my mind is: How are the non-violent, non-war loving people to fight back, for their lives, and the lives of those they love, if faced by violent and war-loving armed people who threaten their existence, their way of living?

If ever i, or someone i love, or somebody i don't even know but unjustly find themselves at gun point, or we are being threatened by drones, or some other horrific life taking weapon, i'd surely would like to have something to fight back! Some means, some weapons, something! Perhaps as long as the world is at the shape it is, it is inevitable not to use violence in order to protect oneself and others, as horrible as the idea of violence might sound to me.

I really hope there is another way, which i haven't thought of yet.

I think that when people resort to violence, they are coming from the weakest position possible. At that point, the discussion is over for the most part unless someone can rise above the situation and not retaliate.

I believe there is almost always room for discussion (perhaps with the exception of pathological types). In my opinion, people who use weapons to solve their problems feel that this is the only way to make their point understood. They don't seem to be able to put themselves in another person's shoes.

That being said, I understand your point concerning protecting oneself and one's family. If that alone would stop the violence, it might even be something to consider. Unfortunately with those who are used to violence being a "solution", it tends to only up the ante. It seems they then use the situation to justify further use of force.
 
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