About David Icke & James Redfield

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I understand the general consensus here is an anti-Icke one, that he is a COINTELPRO agent. I am unfortunately going to have to be against the current on this one until there’s actually something substantial and concrete on the table to back up this consensus. Believe me, the last thing if feel like doing on this forum today is ‘defending’ Icke, I hate disagreeing with you guys.

But I cannot be dishonest with myself. That is first and foremost and if we end up agreeing on disagreeing, that’s also fine. I am not emotionally invested with Icke at all, it would in fact provide me with much relief to finally have something that holds water, and not just baseless accusations.

We do not know the extent of the ‘high strangeness’ that caused an upstanding BBC sports anchor to throw everything away and essentially become an object of ridicule (at least initially), but with this group’s knowledge of ‘high strangeness’ and hyperdimensional realities, I think I expected a little more understanding and enquiry maybe.

There is no point in publicly decrying a "lizard conspiracy" when there is in fact no overt or obvious such conspiracy here. To do so invites ridicule.

This comment of yours surprises me, because of my familiarity with the work you have been doing over the years and your current hypothesis.

Acknowledging the hyperdimensional reality is core to the dilemma we find ourselves in. That is a huge piece of the puzzle! “Overt or obvious” is definitely not very characteristic of the forces shaping our reality.

if we are to have any chance of freeing the people of this world, we must deal primarily with the 3D control system

I don’t agree with you. I think if we have any chance of freeing the people of this world, openly acknowledging the hyperdimentional reality, which we know to be true, is essential.

Fear of ridicule for revealing the truth is not very constructive.

Remember Gurdjieff "sincerity with everyone is madness". Those with more knowledge who would presume to spread the word have a responsibility to consider the level of their audience and the freedom or lack thereof of the environment in which they live.

I agree that “sincerity with everyone is madness”, but we are not talking about everyone here, we are talking about people considering aligning themselves with a movement committed to seeking objective knowledge and truth.

IMO, Icke is clearly a "nut job" and he has only himself to blame for the fact that he is received as he is by the general public.

RD: God no. You won't, you wouldn't even get it if you were to get into other so called conspiracies theories like even the Kennedy assassination.

I remember very early in the, in the early 1990s, I was a fairly experienced graduate student chatting with a tenured professor who was - we were talking a little bit about the Kennedy assassination - just came up and it turned out that he believed very firmly in the lone gunman theory, Oswald acting alone. And this professor was a very liberal, kind of left leaning professor, at least in academic culture. And he discovered that I did not believe; I did believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. And at one point in the conversation, he gave me this look like, “Oh, you are a conspiracy theorist” and I instinctively knew, I better chill out right now because if I go any further with this I am not going to have much of a career in the academic world.

So that's something as mundane as the Kennedy assassination and there were very distinct limits as far as how far you go, UFOs are completely off the map.

H: Yeah no kidding....

J: It's amazing how they've associated essentially any belief in conspiracy theories with fragility of mind almost. You are looked on as though you are essentially not able for any kind of an official position in the world of academia because essentially you are slightly unbalanced. If you...

There seems little doubt that he is a dupe of someone. His messianic complex is a clear hallmark of it.

Forgive me Perceval, but it’s exactly these kind of statements that gets us nowhere. There is no proof to back this up. His ‘messianic complex’ is a natural outcome of someone bursting on the scene with new or controversial information. It’s the very nature of the human race to put someone like that on a pedestal. It doesn’t proof anything.

I never thought of Icke as totally lacking in external consideration, but Perceval made that very clear. And now it seems obvious

Here it is his style that you don’t agree with, it still doesn’t make the argument that he is a COINTELPRO agent.

The only book I have of David Icke is Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Centre Disaster. It was published in 2002. After every chapter he lists all his sources. Right at the end of the book, he gets into the reptilian thing. It’s very close, if not identical to SOTTs current hypothesis.

I am going to have to retype it now, cause I don’t have the e-book.

EDIT: Another thing that also leaves an impression with me, is SOTTs continual emphasis on DOING. Now here's a guy DOING something, and for that he is received rather unfavourably.

 

[dannybananny]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

The problem is, the fact that reptiles of various kinds were honored or pictured around the world clearly doesn't mean that Icke's particular interpretation is correct. So I think this is yet another resource which doesn't add any substance at all to his claims.

Yes, he doesn't have any evidence about that, his books all are based om assumptions, voices(that is suspicious because if he is a concious cointelpro he could be laying about that), and stories he heard from another people that could be cointelpro agents and with that stories they fed his wishful thinking. Only "evidence" he can use are sculptures of reptilian beings found in Mesopotamia that show Sumerian "gods".

To his credit, one of them gave a shot at reading the Icke book on 9/11 that I recommended, but I have never been able to approach any paranormal topic with them since (even something as mundane as UFOs or crop circles) without them visibly tensing up.

This was the case with me also. I wanted to tell everyone about that but then I saw that they are not really open for that stuff. Now I don't talk about that if I'am not asked(and even then I don't go into details but say rather this is what some researches say because it isn't very productive when you're emotionally attached with it, and not very open minded for other information that may have some truth inside it.) It's always better to give information little by little because if you go to the top at once they'll be shocked with it and you can't aspect from someone to accept it just on your own words. Baby steps are needed to create bigger picture and psychopathy is good start because everyone knows that it exists but don't know that they rule our world. When you do damage it's hard to correct it, and you're viewed like some lunatic so I found it's better to go easy.

 

[RedFox]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

We do not know the extent of the ‘high strangeness’ that caused an upstanding BBC sports anchor to throw everything away and essentially become an object of ridicule (at least initially), but with this group’s knowledge of ‘high strangeness’ and hyperdimensional realities, I think I expected a little more understanding and enquiry maybe.

Hi E, have you read Operation Trojan Horse by John Keel yet? If not I think it may be of help in unpicking/gaining an overview of the situation.
I have read one of David Ickes books a few years ago, but do not know the in's and outs of what high strangeness changed him.....I do know however from the many examples of high strangeness life changing events from OTH that these things happen regular as clockwork, involve life changing events and evidence for the people involved.....and usually end in ridicule/ruin/madness/bankruptcy etc for the poor dupe after the high strangeness has had its fun with them.
The purpose of these setups seems to be as follows.
1) Get people to believe in something intangible to explain away whats really going on under there noses....a cover story (blimps, UFO etc), by providing evidence to the dupe....who relays this to the masses
2) Generation of emotions (fear mostly, possibly 'rapture' too) by use of prediction, miracles and 'evidence' presented to the masses through the sincere dupe.
3) After hooking the dupe, and possibly the masses....pull the rug out and do a disappearing act (bait and switch).
which leads to
4) Discredit and distroy an individual, and cover the phenomenon (blimps, UFO etc) and any other weirdness over with this fear of the same happening to you......i.e. shame by association to the subject/field/person....

I think they have done a really good job of this over the years by just looking at how people glaze over (or get scared of ridicule) when you mention anything related to high strangeness (even if they where staring at the lights in the sky).....

So all in all, I know little of Icke but I do know from the evidence presented in OTH that the hyperdimensional lot have been playing these games with well meaning but miss guided (and eventually destroyed) dupes for centuries. And by association the rest of humanity.
They setup the false profits and watch them fall.....set them up and watch them fall......

In the end I think the goals are as follows (although I'm sure there are other goals beyond these.......)
a) Cover/smokescreen...don't look at/question things that are 'odd' because you'll fall like the rest (who where setup).......high strangeness is invisible (with the subtext that its dangerous to see)
b) Convince everyone that its all 3D (hiding 4D in plane sight as a result).....anything the 4D do is then translated into 3D (it must be magic or really advanced 'alien' technology).
c) Emotional energy in the form of mass far.

Perhaps it is a form of generational transmarginal inhibition in regards to high strangeness and its link to fear?
Or perhaps the boy who cried wolf? They perfect the fall guy until eventually they do step in and cause the biggest panic the worlds seen?

But I digress.....my opinion is that Icke is unfortunately a dupe in regards to the high strangeness that has surrounded him. As such he has been setup to do damage/cover what is really going on. As far as he is concerned he is close to the truth (which is why people believe him)....all the while its just planted and manipulated information engineered for the 4D STS's ends alone.

Of course I may be off here, but this is what I see.

 

[celtic]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

He is talking about these jewish shape shifting lizards with no type of source to give us.

In all fairness to Icke, I don't think he really says 'Jewish shape shifting lizards' -- he does criticize Zionism, but goes out of his way to try to separate the Zionist political entity from the Jewish cultural entity (much the same as is done here, really).

To be honest with you I think he is part of the disinfo.

I'm pretty sure that's the general consensus here. One can ask whether he does this purposefully or as a dupe, but yes, he is disinfo.

You are right he did not say jewish shape shifting lizards.
I miss represented my post. I am pretty sure he was trying
to expand on the Zionist not jews. He just needs data to back
up his claims. Wether it be On the Zionist or the shape shifting
Lizards.

Even though I think Icke material is disinformation
I think his heart is in the right place. Icke doesn't no
he is being manipulated. I find some of his work to
actually be interesting. Especially his political views
I think he is on the right page. he Just needs help on
what is crap and what is clean.

 

[vinny]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Even though I think Icke material is disinformation
I think his heart is in the right place. Icke doesn't no
he is being manipulated. I find some of his work to
actually be interesting. Especially his political views
I think he is on the right page. he Just needs help on
what is crap and what is clean.

This is one of the main problems I have with David Icke. Although he seems to dig up a lot of 'interesting' links, he works alone. Despite all he has talked about, he does not seem to consider that he is just as much likely to be a target of deception as anyone else - he does not talk about a lot of the aspects of disinformation (particularly the possible hyperdimensional component of it), COINTELPRO, Protocol 12, Hasbara Handbook, 'Operation Trojan Horse' etc etc etc which are all essential concepts when trying to sift through available data, and tune his ability to 'see'.

He does not have the benefit of a network (also essential for tuning one's own 'reading instrument') for comparing notes, for mirroring, for being able to see gaps in his own awareness or reasoning. And he strikes me as being somewhat simplistic in his thinking, emotionally driven and therefore easily manipulable, gullible even. That is a dangerous combination for one who wields such a huge influence on the thinking of such a large number of followers.

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I want the data and sources, not what Icke says. If he has data and sources collected together, let's see them and check the sources.

Okay, I'm posting the bibliographies from Icke’s more well known books. He list all his sources at the end of each chapter, and then he has bibliographies in the back as well. He says in Alice in Wonderland that he introduced the reptilian hypothesis in The Biggest Secret and Children of the Matrix.


Here’s a list of all his books from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke


• It's a Tough Game, Son! - 1983

• It Doesn't Have To Be Like This: Green Politics Explained - 1989

• Truth Vibrations - 1991, 1994

• Love Changes Everything - 1992

• In the Light of Experience: The Autobiography of David Icke - 1993

• Days of Decision - 1994

• The Robot's Rebellion - 1994

• Heal the World: A Do-It-Yourself Guide to Personal and Planetary Transformation - 1994

• ...And the Truth Shall Set You Free - 1995

• I Am Me, I Am Free: The Robot's Guide to Freedom - 1996, 1998

• Lifting the Veil: David Icke interviewed by Jon Rappoport - 1998

• The Biggest Secret: The Book That Will Change the World - 1999

• Children of the Matrix - 2001

• Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Center Disaster - 2002

• Tales from the Time Loop - 2003

• Infinite Love Is the Only Truth: Everything Else Is Illusion - 2005

• The David Icke Guide to the Global Conspiracy (and how to end it) – 2007


I will post the bibliographies here as I get my hands on them. First one:

…and the truth shall set you free

Bibliography

This is a list of the books you may wish to consult for more detailed information of specific
subject areas. They contain some excellent research. I don't agree with all that they say,
indeed I strongly disagree with views expressed in several of them, but I am interested in
their names-places-dates research, not their belief system.

Allen, Gary; The Rockefeller File, (76 Press, Seal Beach, California, 1976).
Andrews, George C; Extra-Terrestrials Among Us, (Llewellyn Publications, St Paul, Minnesota, 1993).
Andrews, George C; Extra-Terrestrial Friends And Foes, (IllumiNet Press, Lilburn, GA, USA, 1993).
Antelman, Rabbi Marvin S.; To Eliminate The Opiate, (Zahavia Ltd, New York-Tel Aviv, 1974).
Armstrong, George; The Rothschild Money Trust, (1940).
Atkinson, Rodney, and Norris McWhirter; Treason At Maastricht, The Destruction Of The Nation State, (Compuprint Publishing, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, 1995).
Baigent, Michael, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln; Holy Blood, Holy Grail, (Jonathon Cape, London, 1982).
Bhutto, Benazir; Tochter Der Macht: Autobiograhie, (Droemer Knaur, 1989).
Bowen, Russel S.; The Immaculate Deception, (American West Publishers, Carson City, 1991).
Bromberger, Merry and Serge; Jean Monnet And The United States Of Europe, (Coward-McCann Publishers, New York, 1969).
Brzezinski, Zbigniew; Between Two Ages: America's Role In The Technetronic Era, (Viking Press, New York, 1970).
Bullock, Alan; Hitler, A Study In Tyranny, (Pelican Books, London, 1960).
Burdick, Thomas, and Charlene Mitchell; Blue Thunder, (Simon and Schuster, New York, 1990).
Chomsky, Noam; Letters From Lexington, Reflections On Propaganda, (Common Courage Press, Monroe, Maine, USA, and AK Press, Edinburgh, Scotland, 1993).
Chomsky, Noam; What Uncle Sam Really Wants, (Odonian Press, Berkeley, California, Fifth printing, 1993).
Chomsky, Noam; World Orders, Old And New, (Pluto Press, 345 Archway Road, London, N6 5AA).
Coleman, Dr. John; Conspirators' Hierachy: The Story Of The Committee Of 300, (American West Publishers, Bozeman, MT, USA, 1992).
Collins, Tony; Open Verdict, An Account Of 25 Mysterious Deaths In The Defense Industry, (Sphere Books, London, 1990).
Cooper, William; Behold A Pale Horse, (Light Technology Publishing, Sedona, Arizona, 1991).
Cowles, Virginia; The Rothschilds, A Family Of Fortune, (Weidenfeld and Nicolson, London, 1973).
Deacon, Richard; The Truth Twisters, (Macdonald, London, 1987).
Delair, J.B., and D.S. Allan; When The Earth Nearly Died, (Gateway Books, Bath, 1995).
Demaris, Ovid; The Last Mafioso, (Bantam Books, New York, 1981).
Deyo, Stan; The Cosmic Conspiracy, (West Australian Texas Trading, revised edition, 1992).
Drummey, James J.; The Establishment's Man, (Western Islands, Appleton, Wisconsin, 1991).
Dubois, Josiah E. Jr.; Generals In Grey Suits, (The Bodley Head, London, 1953).
Dulles, John Foster; American Red Cross, (Harper, New York, 1950).
Dziurski, Major Alojzy; Freedom Fighter, (J.A. Dewar, Victoria, Australia, 1983).
Editors of the Executive Intelligence Review, "Dope Inc.", (Executive Intelligence Review, Washington D.C., 1992).
Ehrlich, Dr. Paul R.; The Population Bomb, (Ballantine Books, New York, 1968).
Engdahl, F. William; A Century Of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics And The New World Order, (Dr Bottiger Verlags-GmbH, Distributed in the USA by Paul and Co., Massachusetts, 1992).
Essene, Virginia, and Sheldon Nidle; You Are Becoming A Galactic Human, (S.E.E. Publishing, California, 1994).
Eveland, Wilbur Crane; Ropes Of Sand: America's Failure In The Middle East, (W.W. Norton and Co, 1980).
George, David Lloyd; Is It Peace?, (Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1923).
George, John, and Laird Wilcox; Nazis, Communists, Klansmen And Others On The Fringe, (Prometheus Books, New York, 1992).
Giancana, Sam and Chuck; Double Cross: The Explosive Inside Story Of The Mobster Who Controlled America, (Warner Books, New York, 1992).
Goodman, Linda; Star Signs: The Secret Codes Of The Universe, (Pan, London, 1987).
Green, Stephen; Taking Sides: America's Secret Relations With A Militant Israel, (William Morrow and Co, New York, 1984).
Hall, Manly P.; America's Assignment With Destiny, The Adepts In The Western Esoteric Tradition, Part Five, (The Philosophical Research Society, Los Angeles, California, 1979).
Hancock, Graham; Fingerprints Of The Gods, (Heinemann, London, 1995).
Hanfstaengl, Ernst; Hitler- The Missing Years, (London, 1957).
Hay, Louise L.; You Can Heal Your Life, (Hay House Inc and Eden Grove Editions, London, 1988).
Helsing, Jan van; Secret Societies And Their Power In The 20th Century, (Ewertverlag, Gran Canana, Spain, 1995).
Hersh, Seymour M.; The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal And American Foreign Policy, (Random House, New York, 1991).
Heymann, David C; A Women Named Jackie, (New American Library, New York, 1989).
Heymann, Hans; Plans For Permanent Peace, (Harper and Brothers, New York, 1941).
House, Colonel Edward Mandell; Philip Dru: Administrator, (B.W. Huebsch, 1912).
Hurt, Henry; Reasonable Doubt: An Investigation Into The Assassination Of John F. Kennedy, (Holt, Rinehart and Winston, New York, 1985).
Issacson, Walter, and Thomas Evan; The Wise Men: Six Friends And The World They Made, (Simon and Schuster, New York, 1986).
Jasper, William R; Global Tyranny...Step by Step: The United Nations And The Emerging New World Order, (Western Islands, Appleton, Wisconsin, 1992).
Kasun, Jacqueline; The War Against Population, (Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1988).
Keith, Jim; Casebook On Alternative 3: UFOs, Secret Societies, And World Control, (lllumiNet Press, Lilburn, GA, USA, 1994),
Knight, Stephen; The Brotherhood, (Panthar Books, London, 1983).
Koestler, Arthur; The Thirteenth Tribe - The Khazar Empire And Its Heritage, (Hutchinson, London, 1976).
Kurzman, Dan; Ben-Gurion: Prophet Of Fire, (Simon and Schuster, New York, 1983).
Lane, Mark; Plausible Denial, (Thunders' Mouth Press, New York, 1992).
Lilienthal, Alfred M.; What Price Israel? (Henry Regnery, Chicago, 1953).
MacNeil, Jim, Pieter Winsemius, and Taizo Yakushiji; Beyond Interdependence: The Meshing Of The World's Economy And The Earth's Ecology, (Oxford University Press, New York, 1991).
Marciniak, Barbara; Bringers Of The Dawn, (Bear and Co., Sante Fe, 1992).
Marciniak, Barbara; Earth: Pleiadian Keys To The Living Library, (Bear and Co., Sante Fe, 1995).
Marrs, Jim; Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy, (Carrol and Graf Publishers, New York, 1989).
Mclllany, William H. II; The Tax Exempt Foundations, (Arlington House, Westport CT, USA, 1980).
Mead, Professor G.R.S.; Fragments Of A Faith Forgotten, (The Theosophical Publishing Society, London, 1906).
Meiers, Michael; "Was Jonestown A CIA Experiment? A Review Of The Evidence." Studies in American Religion, Vol 35, (The Edward Merlin Press, 1985).
Milan, Michael; The Squad: The US Government's Secret Alliance With Organised Crime, (Shapolsky Publishers, New York, 1989).
Morgenstern, George; Pearl Harbor: The Story Of The Secret War, (Institute for Historical Review, Costa Mesa, California, 1991).
Morrow, Robert D.; The Senator Must Die: The Murder Of Robert F. Kennedy, (Roundtable Publishing, Santa Monica, 1988).
Mullins, Eustace; The World Order, Our Secret Rulers, (Self Published, USA, Second Edition, 1992).
Nichols, Preston B., with Peter Moon; The Montauk Project, (Sky Books, New York, 1992).
Nichols, Preston B., with Peter Moon; Montauk Revisited, (Sky Books, New York, 1992).
O'Brien, Christian; The Genius Of The Few, (Turnstone Press, Wellingborough, Northamptonshire, 1985).
Perloff, James; The Shadows Of Power: The Council On Foreign Relations And The American Decline, (Western Islands, Appleton, Wisconsin, USA, 1988).
Piper, Michael Collins; Final Judgement, The Missing Link In The JFK Assassination Conspiracy, (The Wolfe Press, Washington DC, 1995).
Quigley, Carroll; The Anglo-American Establishment, (Books in Focus, New York, 1981).
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Ramsey, Captain A.H.M.; The Nameless War, (Omni Publications, London, 1952).
Reed, Douglas; Controversy Of Zion, (Dolphin Pres, London, 1978).
Schafly, Phyllis, and Rear Admiral USN (ret) Chester Ward; Kissinger On The Couch, (Arlington House, New York, 1975).
Sedir, P.; Histoire Et Doctrine Des Rose-Croix, (Paris, 1910).
Shasti, Hari Prasad; The Ramayana Of Valmiki, (Shanti Sadan, London, 1976, three volumes).
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Sitchin, Zecharia; The 12th Planet, (Avon, New York, 1976).
Sklar, Holly, (editor); Trilateralism: The Trilateral Commission And The Elite Planning For World Management, (South End Press, Boston, USA, 1980).
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Sutton, Anthony C; Wall Street And The Bolshevik Revolution, (Veritas Publishing Company, Morley, Western Australia, 1981).
Sutton, Anthony C; Wall Street And The Rise Of Hitler, (Heritage Publications, Melbourne, Australia, and Bloomfield Books, Sudbury, Suffolk, England, 1976).
Sutton, Anthony C; An Introduction To The Order, How The Order Controls Education, and How The Order Creates War And Revolution, (Veritas Publishing Co., Bullsbrook, Western Australia, 1985).
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Thompson, Richard L.; Alien Identities, (Govardhan Hill Publishing, San Diego, 1993).
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Van der Beugel, Ernst H.; From Marshall Aid To Atlantic Partnership, (Elsevier Publishing Co., Amsterdam, New York, 1966).
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Walker, Martin J.; Dirty Medicine, (Sling Shot Publications, London, 1993).
Wean, Gary L.; There's A Fish In The Courthouse, (Casitas Books, Oak View, California, 1987).
Wise, Jennings C; Woodrow Wilson: Disciple Of Revolution, (Paisley Press, New York, 1938).
Wooden, Kenneth; The Children Of Jonestown, (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1981).

Hi E, have you read Operation Trojan Horse by John Keel yet?

No, not yet.

but do not know the in's and outs of what high strangeness changed him

Here’s his short biography of how it all began:

http://www.davidickebooks.co.uk/index.php?act=viewDoc&docId=1

RedFox, with regards to the rest of your post, Icke under someone's or something's control is definitely one of the options on the table at this point.

I found it somewhat interesting that Alex Jones hosted him on Infowars for the first time last spring, and admitted that until this year he used to refer to Icke as the 'turd in the punchbowl' of conspiracy theory, but for some reason changed his mind and decided to become buddies with him

Here’s the video of Jones saying that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_4TZ7EM11g&feature=player_embedded

I’ll transcribe:

Questioner: So what’s David Icke doing on tv?

Alex Jones: We have a lot of them producers, you just get tired of the real meat and potatoes, the real issues. So he’s gone for all of the ridiculous Hollywood stuff of, uhm, David Icke and the blood drinking lizard people. So what does David Icke do? He talks about the Federal Reserve, the Bank of England, these global leaders, these power structures, all real, all true, all demonstrated by bills and executive orders and prime ministers and premiers and presidents. All real meat and potatoes; something you can bite into.

Something that is easily demonstratable, and then you got David Icke at the end of all this, he says, by the way, they’re blood drinking lizards…like Al Gore needs blood to drink, so does prince Philip, I mean it’s asinine, and it’s being picked up by people and so it discredits all the reality that people are talking about, and that’s the problem with David Icke. He’s got a good line to a point and then he discredits it all. It’s like a turd in the punch bowl. That’s his job. You got this nice big fruit punch, nice ice cubes floating around in it, you know, and then he takes a big dump right in the middle of it, and no-one is gonna drink out of that punch bowl.

Questioner: But is he in league with them to do that?

Alex Jones: Uhm, I think he knows what he has to do in a controlled world to get away with what he’s doing and be given attention, and he’s either a smart opportunist conman or he’s completely insane or he’s working for them directly, but I think he’s just a conman, uhm, who understands how things work and is just a real opportunist.

Apart from the fact that Alex Jones is in dire need of some class, it’s interesting that he saw the necessity to discredit David Icke’s theory on video. And this is recent. What has changed his mind?

Even though I think Icke material is disinformation

Please specify which material you consider to be disinformation, so that we can start separating the wheat from the chaff here.

Let me see how many more bibliographies I can get my hands on.

 

[Joe]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

There is no point in publicly decrying a "lizard conspiracy" when there is in fact no overt or obvious such conspiracy here. To do so invites ridicule.

This comment of yours surprises me, because of my familiarity with the work you have been doing over the years and your current hypothesis.

Acknowledging the hyperdimensional reality is core to the dilemma we find ourselves in. That is a huge piece of the puzzle! “Overt or obvious” is definitely not very characteristic of the forces shaping our reality.

Hi E, but don't you think that there are good and bad ways of acknowledging a hyperdimensional reality? How smart is it to burst on to the scene and claim that the queen of england is a shapeshifting lizard? What would the expected response from the public be?

if we are to have any chance of freeing the people of this world, we must deal primarily with the 3D control system

I don’t agree with you. I think if we have any chance of freeing the people of this world, openly acknowledging the hyperdimentional reality, which we know to be true, is essential.

Fear of ridicule for revealing the truth is not very constructive.

Sure, but wouldn't you say that different people have different limits and abilities. To not take stock of this is foolhardy IMO and certainly not evidence of someone who is really aware of the the situation that humanity finds itself in.

Remember Gurdjieff "sincerity with everyone is madness". Those with more knowledge who would presume to spread the word have a responsibility to consider the level of their audience and the freedom or lack thereof of the environment in which they live.

I agree that “sincerity with everyone is madness”, but we are not talking about everyone here, we are talking about people considering aligning themselves with a movement committed to seeking objective knowledge and truth.

Well, Icke pretty much told the whole world.

IMO, Icke is clearly a "nut job" and he has only himself to blame for the fact that he is received as he is by the general public.

RD: God no. You won't, you wouldn't even get it if you were to get into other so called conspiracies theories like even the Kennedy assassination.

I remember very early in the, in the early 1990s, I was a fairly experienced graduate student chatting with a tenured professor who was - we were talking a little bit about the Kennedy assassination - just came up and it turned out that he believed very firmly in the lone gunman theory, Oswald acting alone. And this professor was a very liberal, kind of left leaning professor, at least in academic culture. And he discovered that I did not believe; I did believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. And at one point in the conversation, he gave me this look like, “Oh, you are a conspiracy theorist” and I instinctively knew, I better chill out right now because if I go any further with this I am not going to have much of a career in the academic world.

So that's something as mundane as the Kennedy assassination and there were very distinct limits as far as how far you go, UFOs are completely off the map.

H: Yeah no kidding....

J: It's amazing how they've associated essentially any belief in conspiracy theories with fragility of mind almost. You are looked on as though you are essentially not able for any kind of an official position in the world of academia because essentially you are slightly unbalanced. If you...

Indeed. But in revealing the reality of conspiracies, any clued in theorist will take stock of his audience and tailor the message accordingly. Slowly slowly catchy monkey etc.

There seems little doubt that he is a dupe of someone. His messianic complex is a clear hallmark of it.

Forgive me Perceval, but it’s exactly these kind of statements that gets us nowhere. There is no proof to back this up. His ‘messianic complex’ is a natural outcome of someone breaking on the scene with new or controversial information. It’s the very nature of the human race to put someone like that on a pedestal. It doesn’t proof anything.

Well, the fact that he went on television and said "I am the son of god" suggests a messianic complex to me. Few who have broken on to the scene with their own view of reality have also claimed they were the son of god.

I never thought of Icke as totally lacking in external consideration, but Perceval made that very clear. And now it seems obvious

Here it his style that you don’t agree with, it still doesn’t make the argument that he is a COINTELPRO agent.

The only book I have of David Icke is Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Centre Disaster. It was published in 2002. After every chapter he lists all his sources. Right at the end of the book, he gets into the reptilian thing. It’s very close, if not identical to SOTTs current hypothesis.

I am going to have to retype it now, cause I don’t have the e-book.

EDIT: Another thing that also leaves an impression with me, is SOTTs continual emphasis on DOING. Now here's a guy DOING something, and for that he is received rather unfavourably.

He sure is doing something, he's associating common or garden 3D conspiracy theories with shape shifting lizards in the form of the Queen of England and, Kris Kristofferson (to name but two)

 

[celtic]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Even though I think Icke material is disinformation

Please specify which material you consider to be disinformation, so that we can start separating the wheat from the chaff here.

Let me see how many more bibliographies I can get my hands on.

[/quote]

I did not have a specific material, Although I have read the "children of the matrix".
Which talks about an interdimensional race that has controlled the world for thousands
of years. When I got this book It was the first time I ever heard of David Icke. My sister
had took me birthday shopping when I got it at boarders. I was choosing books and
I found this book. I did not read the whole book it was the last two chapters I did not pick
up on. I felt like I was hitting a brick wall as I was reading this book. I found it to be
very boring as well. Here is a bibliography I found that could be related to the book
I just mentioned.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/matrix/matrix.htm

 

[shijing]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Forgive me Perceval, but it’s exactly these kind of statements that gets us nowhere. There is no proof to back this up. His ‘messianic complex’ is a natural outcome of someone breaking on the scene with new or controversial information. It’s the very nature of the human race to put someone like that on a pedestal. It doesn’t proof anything.

Well, the fact that he went on television and said "I am the son of god" suggests a messianic complex to me. Few who have broken on to the scene with their own view of reality have also claimed they were the son of god.

I want to jump in the discussion and address this one point really quickly -- my understanding about the infamous 'Wogan show' is that it has been the premier incident used to slander Icke, and that much of the information is anecdotal and has been taken out of context. This is actually one unfortunate thing about the article that Laura posted recently, because the information about Icke in that article is only partially accurate and related with a sizable bias. In the case of the 'son of god' comment, it was actually taken out of context and used to make Icke appear as though he did have a messianic complex (or at least a more serious one than he actually has):

David Icke ran head on into this lot without any training whatsoever in how to defend himself. The rest is history with the infamous appearance on the Terry Wogan Show. Wogan, who was brought up a Roman Catholic, was out to destroy David and everything he stood for. It's the old story, David had sat with a medium who was linked up to the usual patronising rubbish coming through from the religious etheric wavelengths. You know the sort of stuff:

"My child, you are the son of God, we are all sons of god."

With careful editing the Wogan Show made David Icke out to be completely bonkers, that he was claiming to be the only son of God! They cut the bit out about us all being the sons and daughters of God.

(_http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/ickedestruction.html)

I want to point this out because I think its important that we keep the facts straight in discussing this. I agree that where Icke is concerned, there are healthy amounts of both wheat and chaff, and its probably high time that the separation of these was done here on the forum in more detail, especially because there is probably no other public figure or organization with more superficial resemblances to the Cass material than Icke. I myself was confused about why Icke was seen so poorly when I first ran across the Cass forum, because at first I could only see the similarities. I understand the differences better now, but I think that the more clear the information is here on the forum the better, as I think it is very difficult to see past those similarities at first. I therefore think this whole dialogue is a really good idea so that we can really nail down exactly what is going on with Icke and how his information, views, and strategies contrast with those advocated here.

 

[shijing]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Please note that I just created a thread dedicated to strategic enclosure of FOTCM (as discussed above) here:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=14820.0

I have also created a thread dedicated to the evidence for hyperdimensional realities here:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=14821.0

I hope this helps with organization and clarity of the topics being discussed here -- mods, please intervene if you think this is producing too much clutter.

Edit: anart just pointed out to me at the second thread above that I read Laura's suggestion too widely, and that she is asking for proof behind Icke's assertions specifically, and not for general evidence for hyperdimensional lizards, so it looks like that discussion can be kept on this thread. Sorry to create confusion!

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I understand the general consensus here is an anti-Icke one, that he is a COINTELPRO agent. I am unfortunately going to have to be against the current on this one until there’s actually something substantial and concrete on the table to back up this consensus. Believe me, the last thing if feel like doing on this forum today is ‘defending’ Icke, I hate disagreeing with you guys.

But I cannot be dishonest with myself. That is first and foremost and if we end up agreeing on disagreeing, that’s also fine. I am not emotionally invested with Icke at all, it would in fact provide me with much relief to finally have something that holds water, and not just baseless accusations.

I know exactly where you're coming from, and there's no need to feel bad. You're right - there is no irrefutable proof that David Icke is an agent. There are many hints and clues, but are we correctly interpreting these clues? Are we going too far in saying he's clearly, obviously COINTELPRO? It's possible, although the wealth of clues strongly points that way. So what do we know for sure at this point? What IS irrefutable?

1. Icke is doing more harm than good. His lack of external consideration may just be his style, but it turns people off who may otherwise have been receptive. It not only turns them against Icke himself - it turns them against the whole concept of conspiracies, as well as any truth which may lie beyond them. And the major media are glad to give him a forum for his ideas (usually as a sort of "comic relief"). The PTB love David Icke because, intentional or not, he helps them discredit the entire "truth movement." Even if his reptilian theories were 100% correct and he were 100% sincere, his lack of external consideration destroys his credibility in the public eye, and this is what matters to the PTB.

2. Icke gives information in a simplistic way that serves to distort and mislead. His reptilians may be from the "fourth dimension," but that's incedental. Because every aspect of the situation is presented as 3D in nature. Icke shouts from the housetops that our leaders are "reptilian shape-shifters," then explains the fourth dimension and frequencies almost as a footnote. So what information are his follwers going to focus on? Also, Icke's solution is to realize that God is All, we're all "One," and we need to align with the frequency of Love. This sounds exactly like the New Age movement (which Icke is supposedly against), and it's a useless non-solution. Ultimately it's the truth, but talking about it doesn't help anybody here in 3D. Icke also shows no understanding of psychopathy. This concept is replaced by his claim that our leaders are reptilian shape-shifters in disguise. So we have someone who portrays the problem at one extreme (3D), and does it inaccurately. Then he offers a solution way out at the other extreme (6D/7D), which is too distant from our situation to be helpful.

3. Icke gives the impression of being devoted to truth at all costs. Yet he accepts supposed "eye-witness" or "insider" testimony, integrating it into his theories and books, without questioning its source or validity. He also claims that all channeled information is disinfo, yet Icke's own current path was launched by a "disembodied voice" he heard while taking Ayahuasca. This shows a mental disconnect that casts doubt on Icke's honesty - or his sanity. At the very least, he relies solely on his own mind to determine what's true and what's false, and that's very shaky ground. For anyone.

These are the three aspects of Icke that stand out most for me. They show that he's helping the PTB and harming the cause of Truth. The details beyond that are uncertain, but hopefully the process of analyzing his sources will shed some light.

[quote author=E]

There is no point in publicly decrying a "lizard conspiracy" when there is in fact no overt or obvious such conspiracy here. To do so invites ridicule.

This comment of yours surprises me, because of my familiarity with the work you have been doing over the years and your current hypothesis.
[/quote]

Perceval is speaking in terms of the 3D world the public is familiar with. If we want to help the world at large, things need to be taken one step at a time. Their perceptions and feelings must be taken into account. Yes, we do understand that there's 4D "Lizzies" at work. But if we want to help open people's eyes, starting with that would be detrimental. It's better to start with concrete things which can be observed and verified directly in our 3D experience, such as psychopathy. It's not an attempt to decieve or hide out of fear; it's external consideration. We'd be doing it to help them more effectively, not to protect ourselves from negative opinion. External consideration is like a toolkit, where we choose the right tool for each situation. David Icke, in his zeal to say "I don't care what anyone thinks of me," has no toolkit. He has one tool he uses for everything - a giant sledgehammer. And that's harmful and destructive in the long run.

[quote author=E]
His ‘messianic complex’ is a natural outcome of someone breaking on the scene with new or controversial information. It’s the very nature of the human race to put someone like that on a pedestal. It doesn’t proof anything.
[/quote]

You're right, it's human nature to put folks like Icke on a pedestal... But what is Icke doing to help his followers SEE this program in themselves (or ANY program, for that matter)? Absolutely nothing. On the contrary, he feeds the program. His approach turns him into a pariah and a martyr. His followers see "the system" mocking Icke, putting him on display as a joke, calling him "anti-Semite" and trying to censor him. Couple that with Icke's charisma and the nature of his claims, and it's a recipe for hero worship. Is Icke doing this on purpose? It's hard to say. But he's still helping to cause it and doing nothing to prevent it.

 

[Voyageur]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

David Icke (DI)

Interesting comments in this thread by many of you and as I have not followed Mr. Icke in many years, direct comment of things in recent years must be reserved until further reading, however, here is a few impressions from when first acquainted to his works in regard to this thread, however subjectively one may consider them.

This first part is to offer the reader here a description of what might be thought of DI being generally only for younger readers, however, knowledge of DI strangely came initially to me via a Frenchmen in his early eighties whose brother was a physician in the French Resistance and he himself had served alongside him, which as he said, hardened his views of our present day political norms; this made sense. This awareness initially was from one of DL’s early books he gave to my mother (And the Truth Shall Set You Free ). Gee, this must be something, I thought, two people in their seventies and eighties reading about UFO’s and Reptilians. Jumping forward many years, it seems that his books might well have been initiators for many in looking for answers in a world that makes no sense; ‘everything you always wanted to know about the world but were afraid to ask’ type of journey – was there critical analysis or perhaps just a façade of critical analysis in these books? Of the two in their seventies and eighties, one is no longer and the other has graduated too many other works including Laura’s work and is much more critical in the way she views things then what was first presented by Icke all those years ago. Based on this, one may ask, did his books serve a purpose in long range work, was there value?

What stands out as remembered, OSIT, is that Icke basis his revelations upon a triggered Banisteriopsis caapi type induced experience while standing on a mound in South America and whatever message’s came through – simplistically stated here, he learned of love-light answers; and these could be very real truths, for him! Also, it seems to have become the basis for his assembling of data, wherein, from a voice in his head or a crystallization of thought, he was told or realized that the data was already ‘Out-There’ and he just needed to collate, reconstruct; hence his numerous appendices referenced. Later, this reminded me of putting truths, half truths and lies in a pestle and mixing most vigorously into something palatably objective, upon first glance.

In that regard, to assemble a picture of a particular person, say GWB for example, his lineage etcetera, there of course is a Potpourri of data ‘out there’ on GWB, both factual and subjective. That being said, did Icke cherry-pick his data to suit his own objectives? Looking at the appendices references there may be reason to suspect the data, at least in regards to personas as historically dissected and reassembled by Mr. Icke. There also might be in some cases factual viability in his depictions aside from his noticeable infatuation with Bloodlines and Morphing-Reptilian personas in power, OSIT. However, this does not preclude what he believes/sees, it just seems that there is no rational scientific explanation; he does not discus ponerology or even hyperdimensional drivers other than DNA switches that make one a variable composite Reptilian that switches at will.

His assessments of UFO and extraterrestrials seem on the one hand based on the observations of research authorities, notwithstanding disinformation artists and agendas of undoubtedly a few. On the other hand, his case study by persons involved in extraterrestrial contact, are extremely subjective, with the noise seeming to become black ink truths upon his pages. This does not mean that, for example, his interview with a Zulu chief (have not watched this) does not confirm what this man believes or is not just a historicized myth that this man believes or even things presently apparent to himself; life does after all contain anomalies of multiple types.

His website seems, IMO, over-the-top with a continual barrage of reptilian morphing humans. Correct me, but it also seems well financed and linked; is he attacked by the PTB or just conveniently dismissed, or knowingly or unknowingly covertly attached - PTB might think it expedient to have a scapegoat on the fringes that you can align those undesirables with?

For example, I initially recalled reading that with one of his books, he made a big display of sending copies to everyone in the political scene; congressmen and senators in the US and politicians in Europe, including religious houses; one wonders why? I do not recall verbatim exactly his though process on this point, something about enlightening those in power, however, this seems just so strange, like another forum post alluded to saying about DI, being a disservice to the objectives of truth; damaging. By his actions, he seems to have placed himself in the front of the line with others, even critically thinking others, taking a back seat in his self-proclaimed truth bus. By his doing, his book or books, may now attires the shelves of the politico, within their own small library section that is purposely pointed out every time someone/comment comes their way that does not mesh with their political ideology; “oh, like that Icke nut-case guy”, they might point to and say?

In the realm of archaeological and historical assessments, much he describes may indeed be interpretive truths, as has been stated by others he references and then weaved together by himself or perhaps with others behind his curtain; which he does not acknowledge, that support his or the agreed alternate view of things. To say he operates alone is difficult to fathom, although possible? It also seems that much is open to debate requiring finer analysis of his referenced views and his own interpretation of events with his common denominators being Reptilian, with Love being the answer to our human constitution – no critical work on thyself expected, or so it seems?

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

There is no point in publicly decrying a "lizard conspiracy" when there is in fact no overt or obvious such conspiracy here. To do so invites ridicule.

This comment of yours surprises me, because of my familiarity with the work you have been doing over the years and your current hypothesis.

Acknowledging the hyperdimensional reality is core to the dilemma we find ourselves in. That is a huge piece of the puzzle! “Overt or obvious” is definitely not very characteristic of the forces shaping our reality.

Hi E, but don't you think that there are good and bad ways of acknowledging a hyperdimensional reality? How smart is it to burst on to the scene and claim that the queen of england is a shapeshifting lizard? What would the expected response from the public be?

Sure, and unless I’m misunderstanding, it’s this very point where Icke’s hypothesis differs from yours. We acknowledge the phenomenon, due to eyewitness accounts, testimonies, historical and mythological evidence (and the Cs), but have yet to encounter fairly reliable proof that they manifest in 3D through certain humans (Icke’s ‘bloodline’). Correct me if I’m wrong.

That he handled it terribly initially, is not in dispute. But he was an ‘infant’ in this arena. Again, if he was convinced that it is so, how does one impart the knowledge in a ‘good way’?

If we take the concentric circles of FOTCM as an example, and the outer ring is for “slowly slowly catchy monkey etc”, I don’t know, there is firstly the possibility of people perceiving it as dishonesty and betrayal upon learning about it further along the line, and secondly without that piece the rest doesn’t make any sense. Kind of like teaching someone math, but withholding a couple of numeric values essential for the calculation.

I’m using my personal journey as a reference here, since it first became plausible to me when the hyperdimensional aspect entered the equation.

if we are to have any chance of freeing the people of this world, we must deal primarily with the 3D control system

I don’t agree with you. I think if we have any chance of freeing the people of this world, openly acknowledging the hyperdimentional reality, which we know to be true, is essential.

Fear of ridicule for revealing the truth is not very constructive.

Sure, but wouldn't you say that different people have different limits and abilities. To not take stock of this is foolhardy IMO and certainly not evidence of someone who is really aware of the the situation that humanity finds itself in.

Yeah, that has always been the biggest challenge with material of this nature, people’s ‘sacred cows’, abilities and limits. I think because of Icke’s ‘damage’ the word ‘lizard’ might be necessary to avoid initially, but as I mentioned above, avoiding the hyperdimensional aspect altogether initially…I don’t know. It’s core. I think maybe, if I have to be honest and consider my shocks along the way, when I perceived you as a research group committed to pealing away the layers, I perceived no threat. If I learned you were a religion, perhaps it would have changed my receptivity of what I was learning. I think that’s maybe why I’m worried right now, using myself as a measure stick.

IMO, Icke is clearly a "nut job" and he has only himself to blame for the fact that he is received as he is by the general public.

RD: God no. You won't, you wouldn't even get it if you were to get into other so called conspiracies theories like even the Kennedy assassination.

I remember very early in the, in the early 1990s, I was a fairly experienced graduate student chatting with a tenured professor who was - we were talking a little bit about the Kennedy assassination - just came up and it turned out that he believed very firmly in the lone gunman theory, Oswald acting alone. And this professor was a very liberal, kind of left leaning professor, at least in academic culture. And he discovered that I did not believe; I did believe that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. And at one point in the conversation, he gave me this look like, “Oh, you are a conspiracy theorist” and I instinctively knew, I better chill out right now because if I go any further with this I am not going to have much of a career in the academic world.

So that's something as mundane as the Kennedy assassination and there were very distinct limits as far as how far you go, UFOs are completely off the map.

H: Yeah no kidding....

J: It's amazing how they've associated essentially any belief in conspiracy theories with fragility of mind almost. You are looked on as though you are essentially not able for any kind of an official position in the world of academia because essentially you are slightly unbalanced. If you...

Indeed. But in revealing the reality of conspiracies, any clued in theorist will take stock of his audience and tailor the message accordingly. Slowly slowly catchy monkey etc.

It’s a little hard to take stock of your audience with books. You have no idea where they land, and people of all levels and abilities scattered all over the world, read it. Cater for the ‘faint of heart’, and you lose the ones who can digest it. Cater for the ones who can digest it, and you loose the faint of heart. In advertising, when target markets come into the equation, we always say “try to please everyone, and you please no-one. Cater for the 5-10% that you know you can appeal to.” Maybe Icke figured he’s just going to call a spade a spade and let the chips fall where they may…

I never thought of Icke as totally lacking in external consideration, but Perceval made that very clear. And now it seems obvious

Here it his style that you don’t agree with, it still doesn’t make the argument that he is a COINTELPRO agent.

The only book I have of David Icke is Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Centre Disaster. It was published in 2002. After every chapter he lists all his sources. Right at the end of the book, he gets into the reptilian thing. It’s very close, if not identical to SOTTs current hypothesis.

I am going to have to retype it now, cause I don’t have the e-book.

EDIT: Another thing that also leaves an impression with me, is SOTTs continual emphasis on DOING. Now here's a guy DOING something, and for that he is received rather unfavourably.

He sure is doing something, he's associating common or garden 3D conspiracy theories with shape shifting lizards in the form of the Queen of England and, Kris Kristofferson (to name but two)

Can we really ignore 4D where 3D ‘conspiracies’ are concerned? “As above, so below.”

I understand where you are coming from, and I’m not in total disagreement with your approach necessarily. Simple, it certainly isn’t, but be careful not to lose the ones who will only bite when given this essential piece of the puzzle.

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Children of the Matrix

How An Interdimensional Race Has Controlled The World For Thousands Of Years - And Still Does

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Velikovsky, Immanuel: Worlds in Collision (Pocket Books Simon & Schuster, New York, 1950).
Waddell, L.A.: Egyptian Civilisation, Its Sumerian Origin And Real Chronology (available from Hidden Mysteries through the David Icke website).
Waddell, L.A.: The Phoenician Origin Of Britons, Scots, And Anglo Saxons (Christian Book Club, California, 1924).
Waddell, L.A.: The British Edda (Christian Book Club, California, 1929).
Waddell, L.A.: Makers Of Civilisation (Luzac and Company, 1929).
Walker, Barbara: The Woman's Dictionary Of Symbols And Sacred Objects (Harper-Collins, 1988).
Walker, Barbara G.: The Woman's Encyclopaedia Of Myths And Secrets (Harper Collins, San Francisco, 1983).
Walden, James L: The Ultimate Alien Agenda (Llewellyn Publications, St Paul, Minnesota, 1998).
Wheless, Joseph: Forgery In Christianity (Health Research, 1990).

 

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Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Tales from the Time Loop

The Most Comprehensive Exposé Of The Global Conspiracy Ever Written And All You Need To Know To Be Truly Free

Bibliography

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