Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

Reading a paper by Manfred Clauss called "Deus praesens: Der römische Kaiser als Gott" (Deus praesens: the Roman Emperor as God), in which he critizises modern scholars' tendency to downplay or outright deny that the Romans worshiped the Emperor/Cesar as a living god, i.e. during his lifetime.

Romans did indeed worship living men as gods in many cases even before Cesar, so there is a certain tradition there. But it all went into overdrive with Cesar. Clauss shows that this took place not only in the eastern Empire, which is often said, although it was perhaps more pronounced there (and it's there that the Epiphany holiday apparently took shape): in Rome, too, Cesar was worshipped as a god, and even became a god officially, sanctioned by the state. That is, he was elevated among the "State Gods" even while he was living.

Even in 49, after Cesar crossed the Rubicon, he was greeted as a god in the municipia. After his victory over Pompeius (48) and even more after his vicotry near Zela (47), he was worshiped as a god in the east.

There were of course skeptics in Rome and later detractors, but this is to be expected. Cesar was probably worshipped more in the east than in the corrupt capital, but it speaks volumes that even there the anti-Cesar forces had to accept it. Think Trump vs. Washington DC, except that Cesar actually did clean the Swamp, and was reverred for it (and other reasons).

The paper has lots of interesting things to say, including about the time after Cesar, maybe I'll translate a few passages.
 
Reading a paper by Manfred Clauss called "Deus praesens: Der römische Kaiser als Gott" (Deus praesens: the Roman Emperor as God), in which he critizises modern scholars' tendency to downplay or outright deny that the Romans worshiped the Emperor/Cesar as a living god, i.e. during his lifetime.

Romans did indeed worship living men as gods in many cases even before Cesar, so there is a certain tradition there. But it all went into overdrive with Cesar. Clauss shows that this took place not only in the eastern Empire, which is often said, although it was perhaps more pronounced there (and it's there that the Epiphany holiday apparently took shape): in Rome, too, Cesar was worshipped as a god, and even became a god officially, sanctioned by the state. That is, he was elevated among the "State Gods" even while he was living.

Even in 49, after Cesar crossed the Rubicon, he was greeted as a god in the municipia. After his victory over Pompeius (48) and even more after his vicotry near Zela (47), he was worshiped as a god in the east.

There were of course skeptics in Rome and later detractors, but this is to be expected. Cesar was probably worshipped more in the east than in the corrupt capital, but it speaks volumes that even there the anti-Cesar forces had to accept it. Think Trump vs. Washington DC, except that Cesar actually did clean the Swamp, and was reverred for it (and other reasons).

The paper has lots of interesting things to say, including about the time after Cesar, maybe I'll translate a few passages.
When you say "east", what exactly do you mean? Like everything eastern from Adriatic sea, i.e. Apennine peninsula or even further Eastern parts of then Roman Empire like Greece and Asia Minor?
 
When you say "east", what exactly do you mean? Like everything eastern from Adriatic sea, i.e. Apennine peninsula or even further Eastern parts of then Roman Empire like Greece and Asia Minor?

This is what Manfred Clauss says:

The princeps was God. He was so from the beginning, since Caesar and Augustus, he was so during his lifetime, he was also so in the west of the Roman Empire, in Italy, in Rome. In the following considerations, I will concentrate on the West, and above all on Italy and Rome, because it is in these areas that most scholars have reservations about recognizing the divinity of the living princeps. In the East, it is usually said, this had long been customary, but in the West it was different. The idea of the princeps as a god was certainly dependent on local conditions and the deification of a living person had a longer tradition in the Hellenistic East than in the later Hellenized West, but it can also be proven there.

So he focuses on Italy/Rome as opposed to the East, but I'm not sure about the definition of "East" and "West" during Cesar's time. I sometimes read "Hellenistic East", which suggests the distinction had to do with Greek and culturally Greek parts of the empire and the more strictly Roman parts.
 
...and January 6th 2021 was the day Trump nearly crossed his 'Rubicon' by interceding to prevent the theft of the 2020 US presidential election, but today's optimates 'beat him to it' by hosting a 'Catilinarian' pseudo-insurrection at the Capitol and ushering in imperial rule-by-decree.

Heck, I didn't even think of that before you mentioned it. Duh. This is indeed highly symbolic. I wouldn't put it past whoever runs things dping this deliberately as a sort of revenge fantasy against Cesar. Or, it was MAGA that tapped into this energy first...
 
Ahh I was just about to ask about this, wondering if this is why the PBTB chose the date
No I think it was just coincidental. 6th January (give or take a day) is always the 'cut-off date' for Congress to approve the electoral college votes resulting from the popular vote 2 months beforehand in the presidential election. That's why the rally was planned for that day, to pressure Congress to do something to 'stop the steal'. The 'optimates' pre-empted it with a counter-insurgency operation that was apparently months in the planning, according to this congressman who's investigating what happened:

 
This is what Manfred Clauss says:



So he focuses on Italy/Rome as opposed to the East, but I'm not sure about the definition of "East" and "West" during Cesar's time. I sometimes read "Hellenistic East", which suggests the distinction had to do with Greek and culturally Greek parts of the empire and the more strictly Roman parts.
Pretty sure the East was everything east of Italy, i.e. Greece and the Asian provinces (like modern Turkey).
 
Reading a paper by Manfred Clauss called "Deus praesens: Der römische Kaiser als Gott" (Deus praesens: the Roman Emperor as God), in which he critizises modern scholars' tendency to downplay or outright deny that the Romans worshiped the Emperor/Cesar as a living god, i.e. during his lifetime.

Romans did indeed worship living men as gods in many cases even before Cesar, so there is a certain tradition there. But it all went into overdrive with Cesar. Clauss shows that this took place not only in the eastern Empire, which is often said, although it was perhaps more pronounced there (and it's there that the Epiphany holiday apparently took shape): in Rome, too, Cesar was worshipped as a god, and even became a god officially, sanctioned by the state. That is, he was elevated among the "State Gods" even while he was living.

Even in 49, after Cesar crossed the Rubicon, he was greeted as a god in the municipia. After his victory over Pompeius (48) and even more after his vicotry near Zela (47), he was worshiped as a god in the east.

There were of course skeptics in Rome and later detractors, but this is to be expected. Cesar was probably worshipped more in the east than in the corrupt capital, but it speaks volumes that even there the anti-Cesar forces had to accept it. Think Trump vs. Washington DC, except that Cesar actually did clean the Swamp, and was reverred for it (and other reasons).

The paper has lots of interesting things to say, including about the time after Cesar, maybe I'll translate a few passages.

So, when they assassinated Caesar, they committed deicide... exactly what was claimed about Jesus.
 
Pretty sure the East was everything east of Italy, i.e. Greece and the Asian provinces (like modern Turkey).
I agree. I think "East" in connection with "Roman Empire" could have meant different areas around the Eastern Mediterranean during different times.
Later there was e.g. the Western and the Eastern Roman Empire. The latter included Greece, some parts of Western Asia (Turkey et al.) and some parts of North-Eastern Africa (Egypt et al.).

Division of the empire after the death of Theodosius I in 395 (Wikipedia):

220px-Roman-empire-395AD.svg.png


Roman provinces on the eve of the Assassination of Julius Caesar (Wikipedia):

320px-Roman_Republic_44_bC.svg.png
 
Pretty sure the East was everything east of Italy, i.e. Greece and the Asian provinces (like modern Turkey).
Seeing that Caesar got Illyricum (and Gaul) in 59 BC as his own provinces, and by extension was most probably venerated there as Divus Iulius since that time on, i.e. already (at least) during his last 15 years of earthly life, I'd expect that "East" included that part of the Roman Empire too.

The Romans waged two Illyrian wars: in 229-228 B.C. and in 219 B.C., but no province was formed until 167, when, after the fall of the Macedonian power, Illyria received its provincial constitution (Livy, xlv.26). At this time it extended from the Drilo (modern Drin) to Dalmatia, which was gradually subjugated by Roman arms. In 59 B.C. Julius Caesar received as his province Illyricum and Gaul, and later Octavian and his generals, Asinius Pollio and Statilius Taurus, waged war there with such success that in 27 B.C., at the partition of the provinces between Augustus and the Senate, Illyricum was regarded as wholly pacified and was assigned to the latter.

On the same link as above cited text, it says that St. Paul in Romans 15:19 used a phrase "even unto" (usually translated "as far as") Illyricum, in relation to his missions, which can be both exclusive and inclusive.

Force of "even unto":

In Greek, as in English, the preposition "unto" may either be exclusive or inclusive. In other words, Paul may mean that he has preached throughout Macedonia as far as the Illyrian frontier, or his words may involve a journey within Illyricum itself, extending perhaps to Dyrrhachium (mod. Durazzo) on the Adriatic seaboard, which, though belonging politically to Macedonia, lay in "Greek, Illyria." But since no word is said in the Acts of any extension of Paul's travels beyond the confines of Macedonia, and since the phrase, "I have fully preached," precludes a reference to a hurried or cursory tour in Illyricum, we should probably take the word "unto" in its exclusive sense, and understand that Paul claims to have evangelized Macedonia as far as the frontier of Illyricum.

Even if exclusive meaning of the phrase is taken as a correct one, it can be reasoned that there was no need to preach much in Illyricum, because Caesar was already Divus Iulius there long time before St. Paul's missions, at least it seems so to me. Of course, I could be off base with that reasoning.

Link: Bible Map: Illyricum
 
Addendum to previous post.

In FPTM pp. 526 and 546, Laura made the case that probably the last part "from Jerusalem ... news of Christ." in Romans 15:19 have been edited/inserted, with "from Jerusalem" most likely, if not certainly being added later.

Considering the next line though, Romans 15:20, where St. Paul says "Thus I make my ambition to proclaim the good news, not where Christ has already been named, ...", it seems that the mention of Illyricum in previous verse would fit nicely with what was presented in previous post here, leaving only "from Jerusalem" as an impostor in that sentence.

On the other hand, seeing from the Greek text that what Laura said was an addition to Romans 15:19 forms a 'closed' sentence on its own, her conclusion to remove that complete verse seems also valid and justified.

Greek text can be found at the bottom of the site: Romans 15:19 - Paul the Minister to the Gentiles.
 
Additional note about translation of last part of Romans 15:19, where Illyricum was mentioned.

On the same website with Greek original text, there are also comments by someone named Ellicott, and among them:
And round about . . .--In a sort of rough curve, embracing a large portion of Asia Minor, and finally turning towards the starting-point again in Illyricum.

Which asked for closer look at the Greek text of that part:
So
ὥστε (hōste)
Conjunction
Strong's 5620: So that, therefore, so then, so as to. From hos and te; so too, i.e. Thus therefore.

from
ἀπὸ (apo)
Preposition
Strong's 575: From, away from. A primary particle; 'off, ' i.e. Away, in various senses.

Jerusalem
Ἰερουσαλὴμ (Ierousalēm)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 2419: Of Hebrew origin; Hierusalem, the capitol of Palestine.

all the way
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.

around
κύκλῳ (kyklō)
Adverb
Strong's 2945: A circle, ring. As if dative case of kuklos; i.e. In a circle, i.e. all around.

to
μέχρι (mechri)
Preposition
Strong's 3360: As far as, until, even to.

Illyricum,
Ἰλλυρικοῦ (Illyrikou)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 2437: Neuter of an adjective from a name of uncertain derivation: Illyrican, i.e. Illyricum, a region of Europe.

The word "kyklo" (Dative form of kyklos - circle, ring) in relation to Illyricum reminded me of Laura's experience with Bible translation interpretation recounted in AG Ch 25 The Boat Ride to Damascus:
I remember a particular incident that really drove this point home. A rather famous radio minister of the Church of God denomination was preaching a sermon based on Acts 28:13 where the KJV says, starting with verse 11, “And after three months we departed in a ship of Alexandria, which had wintered in the isle, whose sign was Castor and Pollux. (12) And landing at Syracuse, we tarried there three days. (13)And from thence we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium: and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli…”

Well, this particular pastor decided to use this verse as a metaphor for the Christian needing to have the “compass of God” in order to find one’s way when the winds of life threaten to buffet the faithful. He kept driving home the point about how the apostle did not rely on his own direction, but bought a compass, and the reason for this story to be in the Bible was to set just this example.

I wondered about this passage, so I did some research. I discovered that the real meaning of “from thence we fetched a compass,” was “from there we made a circuit” or sailed in a circle, following the coastline. This was an Elizabethan nautical term which had absolutely nothing to do with the little gadget that points north which today we call a “compass!”

All in all, when "Jerusalem" and related words are removed, the Romans 15:19 reads/translates simply as:
"Therefore all around (or in a circle around) Illyricum, I have fully ...",
which connects very nicely with the next verse, and makes perfect sense in the context that one of Caesar's HQ provinces was in fact that same Illyricum.
 
Pretty sure the East was everything east of Italy, i.e. Greece and the Asian provinces (like modern Turkey).

Roman provinces on the eve of the Assassination of Julius Caesar (Wikipedia):

320px-Roman_Republic_44_bC.svg.png


Yes, here's what Clauss says later in the paper:
"Outside Italy, we find in the West dedications to Augustus in the in the following cities: Alesia/Gallia Lugdunensis,2 2 4 Allones/Gallia Lugdunensis,2 2 5 Beziers/Gallia Narbonensis, 226 Bourges/Aquitania,2 2 7 Dougga/Africa proconsularis,228 El-Lehs/ Africa proconsularis, 229 Gigia/Tarraconensis,2 3 0 Lepcis Magna/Africa proconsularis,231 Moulins Aquitania,232 Narbo/Gallia Narbonensis,233 Stobi/Macedonia,234 Thinissut/Africa proconsularis, 235 Urgavo/Tarraconensis,236 Vienna/Gallia Narbonensis"

So he counts these places as belonging to the West (but outside Italy), which suggests that the East was everything east of Italy, except Africa. He also excludes Macedonia here, which is strange. I suspect there's no clear-cut consensus here, especially if the Romans themselves didn't make a clear-cut distinction between east + west at the time. Perhaps this is a later thing where historians were used to thinking in these terms?
 

Mind blowing article of fresh new Discovery in Italy that to me is the final proof. About Caesar being venerated in the eastern provinces there is the famous Greek inscription from the Corpus Inscriptionum Graecarum (number 2957) :
“Gaius Julius Caesar…Chief Priest…God made manifest and common Saviour of Mankind.”


Lastly About the images of Jesus and the coins tomorrow I will post some Academic sources and places where they were found so I don’t leave you with the youtube video only 💪🏼💪🏼
 
Back
Top Bottom