Regenerative Grazing

[dennis]

Soil types and geology vary widely so a method that works in one area might not be effective in another. We have hard pan clay soils mostly that were eroded from 150 years of growing a cash crop (cotton). Mechanical subsoiling and planting with a forage crop is the only way to loosen it up and build topsoil currently practiced. It has to be repeated periodically because putting a herd of heavy animals on it re-compacts the soil over time. Converting to a forest would do this too, but then you are a different kind of farmer.

 

[eightyfour]

I don’t know who’s actually marketing regenerative agriculture, there’s been some small documentaries produced but by and large it’s suppressed by big Ag.

You can’t use the English system worldwide, that’s the issue and if 2/3 of the earth is located on a brittle environment which essentially means that there’s no rain for 6 months of the year, well planting grain won’t work. Springs dry up, water doesn’t infiltrate the soil ect, you will create more desert. The English system works in England because it’s always wet there.

Besides, if the system collapses…. There’s no way you’ll be able to service those horse drawn combines or produce replacement parts. But a hand scythe can be sharpened for decades and it’s within a person’s means to fashion another blade by blacksmithing.

Plowing the soil has only produced widespread ecological devastation, whether with horses and oxen or now with modern farming equipment. Not to mention the negative impacts consuming grains have on just about all types of life.

There's different areas. Different soils. Just a place like Australia has volcanic plains. large areas of grey or black clays. Those soils are very tolerant of cultivation or as for the heavy clay's incorporation of stubble is actuly beneficial. Farmers actuly know what they are doing more than scientists do especially where multi generations have worked the same land.
A sickle bar mower isn't all that complicated nether is a reaper/binder. All that old farm machinery including combines were made by blacksmiths originally those skils aren't lost (Some people still know how to work with metal).

I was thinking of places that freeze in winter needing grain or baled hay in winter. Unless ya in the tropics storage of feed for animals or even humans is going to be necessary.

There's a fuel other things i'd like point out. Diesel tractors don't use as much fuel as a car for unit of work even old ones form the 50s. Its possible to cut and bale 20 acres of hay on less than 30 liters of diesel. Its possible to get 500 to 1000 small square bales of that area.

If the system collapses so bad a person can't run a lathe or a welder. I wouldn't be worried about keeping livestock. It would be the crazed hungry city people that would be the biggest threat to survival. The biggest threat to humanity is humans them self.

I agree grains are bad for humans but if ya make a sour dough out of cereal rye its ok enough to eat if there's a food shortage.

As for regenerate grazing (its just trendy at the moment it sells meat). I honestly think that meat is good for ya and grazing animals aren't harming the land irreversibly. Is more likley the truth.

 

[Chad]

[...] The rotational system the English had is about the best system for arable land. Unpalatable weeds (thistles for example) get out of hand with grazing alone.

If by rotational system you mean crop rotation, Elaine Ingham of Soil Food Web made an interesting point - which i'll mention either way because it might be worthwhile.

She said that growing a crop repeatedly in the same soil won't necessarily lead to the depletion of particular nutrients, so long as the soil has the right biology. And with the right biology, she claims most soils have the building blocks for most nutrients to be created. She does however also say that a few additional other additional inputs might be needed, such as organic matter for heavy clay soils, and you have to do the initial work of trying to help create and foster that soil life.

In addition, she says that by growing the same crop over a number of years, the soil biology becomes matched to that particular crop, and so if you change it, the soil biology then needs time to readjust to the new crop.

It makes sense to me, because does such widescale turnover of plant variety happen often in nature? Seasonally, yes, but there's still a consistency to what plants are growing and where.

That's not to say that one shouldn't have variety, or rotate crops dependent on the season, or what not, but the idea also seems to correlate with what another researcher talked about which was that soil biology needs to reach a 'quorom' - certain species need to be in a certain abundance - before they can really be effective, whether that be producing certain nutrients or supressing certain diseases.

 

[benkostka]

Farmers actuly know what they are doing more than scientists do especially where multi generations have worked the same land.
A sickle bar mower isn't all that complicated nether is a reaper/binder. All that old farm machinery including combines were made by blacksmiths originally those skils aren't lost (Some people still know how to work with metal).

“Farmers” have caused serious damage to the planet, things like the Dust Bowl are great examples. Which happened from tilling the land, so I will agree that some know what they’re doing and some don’t. Perhaps the split could be working within the cycles of Nature or disrupting those cycles. The same can be said for scientists.

As for blacksmithing sickle bar mowers, that’s not the case. They started getting developed around 1860 which coincided with the rise in the steel industry due to the bessemer process. They took off at the turn of the 1900’s due to modern machinery.

A Short History of the Horse-Drawn Mower - Small Farmer's Journal

Book Excerpt: The enclosed gear, late model John Deere, Case, Oliver, David Bradley, and McCormick Deering International mowers I (we) are so fond of had a zenith of popular manufacture and use that lasted just short of 25 years. Millions of farmers with millions of mowers, built to have a...

smallfarmersjournal.com

Perhaps a return to what can actually be made by blacksmithing is needed. It’s something that can still be accomplished if SHTF.

 

[benkostka]

Mechanical subsoiling and planting with a forage crop is the only way to loosen it up and build topsoil currently practiced. It has to be repeated periodically because putting a herd of heavy animals on it re-compacts the soil over time.

There’s studies out there and people who have solved this problems without machinery though. Alan Savory did it in Africa and others are doing it in the US. The idea that animals compact the soil just isn’t true if it’s done properly, in fact many animals have hooves that do a good job of slightly disturbing compacted soils so that seeds can then germinate the next year. They’re incredibly beneficial, trampling dead grass that would otherwise oxidize and smother new growth.

To your point though, and because of the way cattle are shipped to feedlots, the size has increased over the years. Lots of farmers used to use smaller breeds of cattle like Dexters, Corriante or Mashona who generally are about 800 pounds when slaughtered as opposed to many now who are 1500 pounds or more in feedlots.

So those smaller cattle put on weight on grass easier and are also impact the soil less. From all my research the largest danger to ruining a field is mud and the time that the animals spend in one area creating a mess. A larger cow will certainly tear up a field faster than a small one, but the whole soil compaction from animals is a myth with rotational grazing done properly.

 

[benkostka]

Lotta good points made in this video. One is looking at food production from an energy perspective. I like how he speaks slowly as well. If we work with Nature, we will be fine. Seems to apply on the Cosmic scale too.

 

[Jet]

Well the C’s mentioned in the December session that the way to survive in the future will be to go back to the land. One the the best ways to grow food is regenerative grazing or holistic grazing, it’s a very simple method that improves literally everything in the environment. If done properly you get more water retention in soils, more water infiltration in soil to refill aquifers, the removal and recycling of dead organic matter to prevent fires. Additionally all the wild species of animals are benefitted as well, deer, turkey, raptors and many more species will return because of the positive changes to the environment from grazing. Cattle can also provide things like leather, which if made through vegetable tanning will last decades.

So here’s a video about doing this in Southern California. It’s simple stuff and probably worth knowing, as knowledge and skills like these certainly will help survive when food is scarce.

That's right, without forgetting to shave the lawn at home and remove the weeds. Cleaning is very important, contributing to the land and the garden, although even worms and rats are necessary in the ecosystem

 

[nature]

How do you sacrifice your animals for food? Is there a plant that anesthetize them first?

 

[Voyageur]

“Farmers” have caused serious damage to the planet, things like the Dust Bowl are great examples. Which happened from tilling the land, so I will agree that some know what they’re doing and some don’t. Perhaps the split could be working within the cycles of Nature or disrupting those cycles. The same can be said for scientists.

Yup, sure have (erosion-wise especially, which also impacts water and fish). Lierre Keith does a good job on bringing some of this to light (The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability) - see the thread on the forum, too.

There’s studies out there and people who have solved this problems without machinery though. Alan Savory did it in Africa and others are doing it in the US. The idea that animals compact the soil just isn’t true if it’s done properly, in fact many animals have hooves that do a good job of slightly disturbing compacted soils so that seeds can then germinate the next year. They’re incredibly beneficial, trampling dead grass that would otherwise oxidize and smother new growth.

Speaking of Alan Savory, a planner to boot who got it all wrong - and then opened back up grazing to reinvigorate what had been destroyed. Savory also has his detractors wherein the C02 brush keeps attaching the scene, and there are some landscape nuances mixed in:

...in fact many animals have hooves that do a good job of slightly disturbing compacted soils so that seeds can then germinate the next year

Agree, likewise in forests do animals disturbed the forest litter and soils and open up seed beds.

 

[scotseeker]

Just one of the many articles about Amish farming and the benefits of rotational grazing. Living next to a very large Amish community it is amazing to see how they live off the land, how their hundreds of years of traditional living has kept growing and thriving. Not only that but providing amazing quality foods at incredibly affordable prices remain to this day. It is just one article but I can tell you from experience that the Amish have this particular piece of life pretty well figured out. I go to their local Ashery to buy a lot of my goods, at half the price or less than a typical grocery store and much better quality. Their hand made butter is incredible,

Grazing benefits run deep on this Ohio farm

Ohio Mentor Dairy Grazier, Ralph Schlatter, talks to Hay & Forage Grower about the using regenerative practices to improve the health of his animals and his land.

www.dga-national.org

 

[Voyageur]

Just one of the many articles about Amish farming and the benefits of rotational grazing. Living next to a very large Amish community it is amazing to see how they live off the land, how their hundreds of years of traditional living has kept growing and thriving. Not only that but providing amazing quality foods at incredibly affordable prices remain to this day. It is just one article but I can tell you from experience that the Amish have this particular piece of life pretty well figured out. I go to their local Ashery to buy a lot of my goods, at half the price or less than a typical grocery store and much better quality. Their hand made butter is incredible,

Re the bold:

Spent a wee bit of time in Pennsylvania and had enjoyed seeing what they do in farming and also furniture making. Of farming (this Amish guy has a slight C02 bent) he does add:

When Schlatter shifted to grazing, he was able to get rid of a lot of machinery. He sold his combine and tillage equipment, eliminating the cost of maintenance that came with it. However, Schlatter is less concerned with the economic returns of grazing livestock than the environmental ones.

 

[benkostka]

How do you sacrifice your animals for food? Is there a plant that anesthetize them first?

Temple Grandin has done a lot of work to minimize the trauma done to animals before they’re taken to slaughter and loaded. If you research her work that can give you a good idea of how the regenerative ranchers approach that situation as opposed to the corporate types. It’s not an easy thing to summarize, so I’d recommend doing an internet search on her work, watching some videos or perhaps purchasing her books.

 

[Honzap]

How do you sacrifice your animals for food? Is there a plant that anesthetize them first?

In short this is always a pain.

Small animals we butcher ourselves, bigger animals go to professional butcher. With the costs involved for processing these days, we will be moving towards self reliancy.
Either way, for me personally killing an animal is the hardest part. Not the blood, not the smells, but the act of taking life. Makes me feel down for the rest of the day. It is a part of the circle of life on the farm. A farmer sees things come to this world, takes care of them as best as they can, and in the end, they see their demise.

Now how many people think that they actually killed the animal every time they buy a piece of meat in the store? Not with your hands of course, but still an animal is dead so we could live.

And yet, 2-3 generations back it was quite normal for a Mama to call one of her kids to kill a chicken and bring it home to be cooked for lunch. What happened to us that we are so sheltered and dis-attached from all of this?

Interestingly enough the butchering part which can get really gross at least at the beginning with lots of fluids, blood, smells and all, this part is surprisingly easy.

Anesthetics are not being widely used. Aim is for quick and clean demise.

 

[benkostka]

In short this is always a pain.

Small animals we butcher ourselves, bigger animals go to professional butcher. With the costs involved for processing these days, we will be moving towards self reliancy.
Either way, for me personally killing an animal is the hardest part. Not the blood, not the smells, but the act of taking life. Makes me feel down for the rest of the day. It is a part of the circle of life on the farm. A farmer sees things come to this world, takes care of them as best as they can, and in the end, they see their demise.

Now how many people think that they actually killed the animal every time they buy a piece of meat in the store? Not with your hands of course, but still an animal is dead so we could live.

And yet, 2-3 generations back it was quite normal for a Mama to call one of her kids to kill a chicken and bring it home to be cooked for lunch. What happened to us that we are so sheltered and dis-attached from all of this?

Interestingly enough the butchering part which can get really gross at least at the beginning with lots of fluids, blood, smells and all, this part is surprisingly easy.

Anesthetics are not being widely used. Aim is for quick and clean demise.

I completely agree and will add that the feeling of pain and sadness is the same for any “normal” person who hunts animals. I always feel down for a day or so after harvesting a deer and I don’t like walking through the woods from November-January watching them all act incredible spooky because of all the bullets being fired at them. If a deer, or any other animal is hit properly with a double lung shot, they’ll expire very quickly.

There was a National Geographic article I read years ago about a group that I believe lived somewhere in the mountains of Asia. They’d developed a method of holding their animals when they slaughtered them and quickly severing the jugular vein. Obviously to be able to do this, one must treat those animals with love and care until they’re ultimately harvested, otherwise they wouldn’t trust the Shepard at all.

The symbolic story of Cain and Abel really plays into the discussion.

 

[PERLOU]

Avant de connaitre Laura, j'étais végétarienne depuis des années parce que j'aime vraiment les animaux et je ne supportais pas qu'il leur faille mourir pour moi...
Dans mes prières du matin, ils ont leur place chaque jour : "Oh Divin Esprit Cosmique, je remets entre tes mains tous les animaux que nous avons tués, à qui on a pris leur chair, leur fourrure, leurs plumes, leur vie, leur amour, leur confiance pour nous les humains"...

Before I met Laura, I was a vegetarian for years because I really love animals and I couldn't stand that they had to die for me...
In my morning prayers, they have their place every day: "Oh Divine Cosmic Spirit, I place in your hands all the animals that we have killed, from whom we have taken their flesh, their fur, their feathers, their life, their love, their trust for us humans"...