How a psychopath spots a victim

[ark]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

They are charming and experts at getting what they want. If you don't want to give it, they are experts in making out you are at fault because of this. Because they observe clearly and accurately, being unfazed by emotional response (which they do not possess), the smallest detail will not go unnoticed.

While the above is true, they are not that powerful as it may sound. After a while it is not so difficult to recognize a psychopath. One thing to look at are double standards. For instance they would use kind of dirty methods to get you - but whenever you are doing something that would endanger their dominion, they would accuse YOU of using the method that THEY use all the time.

This is something very easy to spot. While the above is not a property uniquely characterizing the psychopaths, it is a property that, once you notice it in someone, is a sufficient reason to leave and move away as far as possible. Not only that. It is also our duty to tell aloud other people about what we noticed - in order to help the potential other victims.

I think that exchanging our observations and experiences, discussing particular examples of this kind of double talk, examples taken from our lives, may help a lot. This would be a valuable addition to the theoretical and general guidelines.

 

[KC Kelly]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

This is something very easy to spot.

I agree here, with one caveat; Once one initially learns to recognize this type of behavior in others, then yes, it becomes increasingly easier and easier to spot when it is taking place in front of you. The major block seems to be LEARNING to recognize it.

In my experience, and the other forum members may or may not agree, it has been extremely difficult as of yet, to share this and other little nuggets of behavior recognition with others. Main reason? They just don't seem to give a damn that what I'm trying to share with them is for their own benefit. And my intent is to consciously "share", not "push" this info with them for their own benefit.

From this page _http://beyondthepsychiatricbox.blogspot.com/2006/03/domination-tactics.html

All of the controllers of others, whether family members, employers or cult leaders, seem to share a similar tactic aimed at control apparent in the line:

" Listen, no need to let on we have had this little conversation; let's just keep this between you and I."

This is generally delivered right after one of them has given us some ''confidential'' information about someone else, or after they have given someone else some ''confidential information about us.

This is exactly the method used by my sister-in-law "M" last year when she informed my wife that she had been having an ongoing affair for 2 or more years with another of my brothers. She also expressed the classic "duping delight" when adding that she had gotten so good at lying to her husband, my brother"J" that she was a pro at it. My wife and came to the conclusion that we couldn't allow this to go on any longer, and we told my brother about it. She then used the following tactics written about by George Simon In Sheep's Clothing:

Denial – This is when the aggressor refuses to admit that they've done something harmful or hurtful when they clearly have. It's a way they lie (to themselves as well as to others) about their aggressive intentions. This "Who... Me?" tactic is a way of "playing innocent," and invites the victim to feel unjustified in confronting the aggressor about the inappropriateness of a behavior. It's also the way the aggressor gives him/herself permission to keep right on doing what they want to do.

Then came this tactic:

Playing the Victim Role – This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another.

Follwed by this one:

Vilifying the Victim – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive.

Within a week came the vindictive, insulting, hateful, lie-filled e-mail that she sent to us and several other members of our family and a few friends who didn't had anything to do with this situation, who were "outside the loop", so so speak, and didn't even know what had happened, all in an obvious effort to garner their sympathy and side with her over our "wicked and vile" behavior--that is, because we told my brother the truth that his wife was lying, cheating, and deceptive about the whole affair (no pun intended). I remember something Laura wrote in a post on Narcissism, that beware of confronting them about their behavior because "they will SAY ANYTHING!" Yep.

If I had not read Simon's book and many others on narcissism and psychopathy on this forum and other sources, I would have fallen for all that crap.

Now my mother has asked that my wife and I "bury the hatchet" and "let bygones be bygones" and similar acts of "putting it in the past" by joining a family gathering at bro and sis-in-laws house (yep, they're still together) later this month for Memorial Day gathering. After kindly informing Mom that all the experts agree that, in the long run the best method for dealing with known narcissists and psychopaths is avoidance, I can tell she is disappointed and thinks that we are "holding a grudge" over this whole issue.

Again, I have tried calmly and respectfully to explain to her my reasons for declining to attend, but she just doesn't get it, and doesn't appear to want to understand any time soon. Yeah, then my wife and I look like the "bad guys". We know. Oh well. We can't change what others think of us, but we will continue to avoid any interactions with "M", because well, we here all know why....

 

[Laura]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

Kelly, I actually have a bit of a problem with you exposing your sister-in-law to your brother as you did it. There was no external considering at all in the scenario you describe.

 

[PepperFritz]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

The major block seems to be LEARNING to recognize it.... I have tried calmly and respectfully to explain to her my reasons for declining to attend, but she just doesn't get it, and doesn't appear to want to understand any time soon....

I think you may be confusing two completely separate issues: (1) The need to LEARN HOW to recognize psychopathic/narcissists (i.e. acquiring the knowledge, information, tools, techniques, etc. to identify them, and THEN avoid them); and (2) The need to be MOTIVATED to clearly recognize such predators.

People have all kinds of motivations for strongly resisting recognition of the predators in their midst, no matter how clearly the facts and circumstances are laid out before them. This is especially true when dealing with family dynamics. The resistance usually arises from one or more "programs" and/or beliefs that automatically override "truth" -- such as: "Everyone is good and decent at their core, and "bad" people are usually just misunderstood"; "We can only be a real "family" if we all work to "get along"; "Marriage is for life, I have to stay with my spouse no matter what"; "My mother/father/sister/brother (etc) cannot be a psychopath, they LOVE me"; "Anyone who would fall in love with a psycopath must be a sick person too;" etc etc etc.

For such people, the "consequences" of clearly recognizing the psychopaths and narcissists in their environment are not worth the "benefits". Because such recognition utterly destroys one's carefully constructed illusions about the world and the people around them; once your eyes are "opened", you then have to take action that inevitably causes "disruption" of one's family, work, and social networks. And most people avoid "disruption" at all costs. And, of course, predators take complete advantage of such programs/beliefs and play right to them.

In the end, all you can do is provide people with the facts, in a calm, rational, and non-pressuring manner. Explain clearly and calmly (as you have done) why you have decided to take the steps you have in order to protect yourself, recognizing that in most cases "understanding" is not likely to be forthcoming, and that, yes, you will likely be labelled the "bad guy". I don't know how you motivate people to get beyond their "denial", to risk "disruption" in order to see reality clearly. Fact is, "illusion" is "easier" for most people, no matter how much they may seem to be suffering from their current situation. What drives one person to uncover "the truth" at all costs, and another to avoid it at all costs? I really don't know.

For me, this has been one of the hardest things about living a life dedicated to uncovering "truth" and "objective reality" -- not being able to bring all of your beloved friends and family along with you on the journey. I guess in the end, it is a solitary journey.

Kelly, I actually have a bit of a problem with you exposing your sister-in-law to your brother as you did it. There was no external considering at all in the scenario you describe.

I agree. It's a classic example of imposing one's "help" when none was asked for. Several assumptions were made that should not have been made -- e.g. that the cuckolded brother did not "know"; that if he did not "know", that he would WANT to "know"; that it would be "best" for the brother to "know", etc.

...we told my brother the truth that his wife was lying, cheating, and deceptive about the whole affair (no pun intended). I remember something Laura wrote in a post on Narcissism, that beware of confronting them about their behavior because "they will SAY ANYTHING!"

Except you didn't confront the Narcissist about her behaviour, you confronted her Victim about her behaviour.

 

[KC Kelly]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

Kelly, I actually have a bit of a problem with you exposing your sister-in-law to your brother as you did it. There was no external considering at all in the scenario you describe.

I understand that now, Laura. At the time, I didn't. It was a very difficult decision that my wife and I discussed for some time before we decided what to do. We examined whether it was "right" or "wrong" to inform him. I had tried to take into consideration whether he was "asking" to know the truth about what was going on. Well, since he obviously didn't know, he wasn't going to come up to me and ask whether or not I or my wife knew whether "M" was having an affair or not.

Over the course of several months he opened up to me that much of her behavior wasn't adding up. Many inconsistencies in her accounts of her whereabouts, explanations that were contradictory. He questioned his own mental state, that he was ashamed for even questioning her, and that he felt quilty for doing so. She was really doing a number on his psyche. And I mulled over the whole point of external considering, as you brought up. I thought whether it was being externally considerate to him to withhold information from him that, through his explanations of his feelings and his body language, he appeared to be "asking" for the truth.

So I asked him, if someone else knew the answers to the questions that he wanted to know, would he want that person to tell him, even though he didn't ask that person beforehand if they knew, and he gave an immediate and unqualified YES. So only after this did we tell him. Even then we were very ambivalent about whether or not we did the "right" thing by, more or less, "asking him if he would ask us".

I know, I know, it was a mess. I tried to take what I thought I knew about "external considering" into the decision, and it appears in hindsight that I still made the wrong decision. We empathized with him for the mind games that she had been imposing on him, among other things. That played a huge part in our decision to act by telling him. Obiously now, that wasn't a good enough reason.

All is lessons. I would not do the same again in a similar situation.

 

[KC Kelly]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

For me, this has been one of the hardest things about living a life dedicated to uncovering "truth" and "objective reality" -- not being able to bring all of your beloved friends and family along with you on the journey. I guess in the end, it is a solitary journey.

Sure looks that way, I agree. Extremely frustrating, and yet there's something else for me to Work on--the frustration. If there's any one thing that came from all this, it is that one must be oh, so discerning about what one should or shouldn't do in extremely touchy matters such as this--and, that I have a long way to go in my day-to-day journey of learning this discernment.

Except you didn't confront the Narcissist about her behaviour, you confronted her Victim about her behaviour.

Yes. Simply put. Another thing I now recognize, but didn't see it then. Thank for your input.

 

[PepperFritz]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

I thought whether it was being externally considerate to him to withhold information from him that, through his explanations of his feelings and his body language, he appeared to be "asking" for the truth....

In my experience, if people really want to KNOW, they take it upon themselves to FIND OUT -- which your brother easily could have done in his situation, without involving anyone else. I'm very wary when people avoid doing the obvious, when they "fish" around other people who might "know", and more or less put the onus on someone else to "spill the beans". It's a good sign that they don't necessarily really want to "know", and are probably looking for something else (e.g. reassurance that their suspicions are "wrong").

Reminds me of an incidence from my early 20s. My (7-years younger) brother still lived at home with my highly dysfunctional family. I knew that he was gay since he was about 3 years old, but it was not something I'd ever discussed with him or my family. Over the years I watched him become more and more "obvious" about it with the parents, to the point of bringing his boyfriends' home for family dinners. I knew he couldn't face just TELLING them, and so seemed to be provoking them to confront him about it. Around that time, my mother (a diagnosed Malignant Narcissist) took me aside and started telling me how much she was "worried" about my brother, but wouldn't specify what she was "worried" about. I just kept saying he seemed fine to me, and refused to get drawn in. She grew increasingly frustrated with me, and finally blurted out "I'm afraid he might be gay. Do you think he's gay?". She wanted to KNOW, right? She was asking me to tell her, right? WRONG. After I told her what I thought ("Yeah, it seems kind of obvious, Mom"), she then angryly interrogated me: "How do you know? Has he told you? Have you caught him at it?" etc etc. When I told her it was just something I concluded from observing him, she then accused me of telling "lies" about my brother, and "trying to make trouble". I learned a very valuable lesson that day.

When I began to suspect that my first husband was having an affair, I didn't ask everyone else around us (his friends and family, my friends, our friends, etc.), I went right to the source: I asked HIM. When he denied it and that "feeling" didn't go away, I trusted my own gut instinct; I followed him one night and "caught him". Because I wanted to KNOW. I knew once I KNEW that our marriage would be over, and I was prepared for that. But a lot of people with cheating spouses don't want their marriages to end, they don't really want a change in the status quo, so they skirt the issue, they put the responsibility for "telling" on other people. As emotionally fragile and hurt as they are, you have to recognize their behaviour for it for what it is -- MANIPULATION -- and not get drawn in to playing that role.

 

[KC Kelly]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

More often now, I am able to recognize the "pity me" ploy being worked on others, but it is still so difficult to see it when it is being used on me.

In retrospect, I see how it worked by recapitulation of the things he did and said. And all the while there was that gut instinct voice inside, maybe not blasting away, but I could feel it humming, telling me to tread lightly, be careful, watch your step, are you sure of what youre doing, etc. And I didn't listen to it. The very fact that I felt it should have been my clue, but I ended up going against it.

And I had read Barbara Hort's Unholy Hungers, among others, and was oh so proud of how much I had learned about vampiric behavior, and that that kind of stuff wasn't going to work on me, and so on.

Sheesh! So much for that! Back to school....

 

[purplehaze]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

Maybe this will help in the recognition department:

I clearly recall a conversation with a close girlfriend after our first date. She asked me what I thought of him and I blurted out “Quirky.” We exchanged laughs and I gave her a dissection of an odd mannerism I had noticed. We both concluded that “Quirky can be good.” It never traversed my mind “When Quirky can be bad.”That was first time I ever used “Quirky” to describe someone. That conversation stuck with me ever since and that was a few years ago. It was on a routine stop that fate delivered me on the doorstep to the kingdom of hell. Since my recent escape I’ve added Malicious Quirk to my vocabulary.

My collision with “Quirky” happened in a local vocal bar. The attraction was the voice behind the microphone. My girlfriend and I went there often because we loved the smooth sound that filled the room. One night we stopped after dinner in our usual course of things. We were two content single women standing in a crowded room, swaying to the music. A tall man and his short friend enter the landscape. My girlfriend and the tall man exchanged the niceties of social acquaintances. By the end of our girl’s night out I accepted an invitation out with her acquaintance.

In a single girl’s world the deliverance of a “Life Partner” by a trusted girlfriend comes highly recommended. I was assured he was good guy. Once given the stamp of approval you assume your life will not be in danger. The worse thing that can happen is discovery there is no chemistry.With this mindset I jumped into my date’s sports car.

The highlight of our evening was to go with some of his lifelong friends to an indoor concert of an artist I had no particular like or dislike for. Always a good first date. If you don’t enjoy the company you always have the music. Except when the acoustics are all wrong and then you’re annoyed instead of entertained. So there I was, annoyed and sitting next to an individual who, instead of turning toward me like a normal person, he was turned away. Hmm. My mind got caught up in this behavior. I remember sitting there and looking at the scene as if from the outside.

My first thought was “How odd?” I scanned my memory for a possible explanation.“I got nothing.” So I ran a little experiment to be sure nothing else was involved. I purposefully instigated moves around the room and watched him resettle himself. Same thing, each time he turned away. Next step I went for was delivery to an inquiry.

Tone of voice is a sure fire way to determine disinterested. I asked what he thought of the acoustics. His answer had a pitch high on the pleasure scale. Totally confused I decided this is not the one. However, I intended to remain ladylike until the evening’s end.

After agonizing for over an hour I did not welcome an encore. Inside I was screaming, “No, no,” while the audience was screaming, “Yes, yes.” Ugh. My self coach told me I could hang in there for one more song. On the last note I bolted for the door with the strange one in toe. Now all I need to do is endure the ride home. The end of this incomprehensible affair was in sight.

Then my date informed me there was a phase two to my night in the twilight zone. What? Oh no, what must I endure now. The plan was to meet up with his longtime friends for dinner. Since we didn’t sit with them during the concert I have no clue what they were like. Somewhere I got the idea weird attracts weird.I was not looking forward to a higher level of bizarre.

Now I have to sit with a group of weird strangers and pretend I was having a good time. And eat in front of them to boot. Think quick, what is a contingency plan of escape. No solution on demand. In the future I will always have a contingency plan regardless of who put me in the mess.

We arrive first at our table for ten. At least I didn’t have to endure the “all eyes on you” entry. I prepared myself to respond kindly and interested no matter what was thrown around this huge table. I was ready for some off the wall sense of humor.

Couple by couple strolled in and offered appropriate greetings in introduction. Not one friend oozed weird off their lips. Just good folks I would love to hang around with. Hugh? This did not add up. Surely these people are mistaken in their selection of this table. They acted like they knew my date. Was I missing something?

For the next couple hours I watched an event unfold that was the catalyst to my involvement with this odd person. This group of rational people appeared to adore my date. His charisma captured their attention. Nothing in my interaction with his friends signaled danger and I mean nothing. I reasoned his peculiar habit of turning away from me was simply “quirky.” I changed my attitude. This will turn out to be a big mistake.

Following this perplexing first date I was propelled into an all encompassing relationship with him. My empathy grew with every future display of odd behavior. His above average intelligence coupled with what appeared to be social discomfort stimulated my nurturing protection of his feelings. In time I became his keeper and he became my ruler. In the end my entire existence was under his control.

Finally, when I had nothing left to meet his insatiable charm filled demands and frustrated by his blameless laziness, I took a stand. I expected compassion and understanding to step in and restrain his behavior. What happened next caught me completely by surprise. In an instant he turned his back on me and my home and my job vanished. This move was done without a hint of emotion. He cruelly threw me in a dumpster to struggle out on my own.

Nothing in all my life experience indicated that his peculiarity may signal absence of empathy. His final act, devoid of emotion and causing immeasurable harm, conveyed that I had danced with the devil. Most empathetic minds have no frame of reference to consider an odd behavior might be a Malicious Quirk.

Now mine does.


http://predator-awareness.healthylifestylegeek.com

 

[purplehaze]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

Around that time, my mother (a diagnosed Malignant Narcissist) took me aside and started telling me how much she was "worried" about my brother, but wouldn't specify what she was "worried" about.

This is a VERY common ploy by N-mothers to play their children against one another & create drama.

This blog would interest you: http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com

 

[PepperFritz]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

This is a VERY common ploy by N-mothers to play their children against one another & create drama.

Don't I know it!

This blog would interest you: http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com

Good piece. At the time of my story, I didn't see my mother more than once or twice a year, on the usual "holidays", in order to avoid her toxicity. But like the author of that blog, within a couple of years I found it necessary to cut her out of my life completely, after some events and behaviour that were over-the-top shocking, even for her. She managed to track me down and send me periodic "Why are you such a terrible daughter?" letters over the years, but I managed to have zero contact with her for almost 20 years. When I heard she had cancer a few years ago, I made the decision to resume contact, and even ended up nursing her back to health for over a year. Why? Because I felt sorry for her? No. Something in me just had to KNOW whether she had changed in any way, and whether there was ANY possibility that we could have a relationship on SOME level. I needed to know that before she died, so that I would have no regrets or doubts afterwards.

And I got my answer: No, of course she hadn't changed. If anything, she was worse than ever. But this time, I watched her manipulations like a hawk, and when she went in for the kill, I was ready for her, and just quietly slipped out of her grasp. Last I heard she was alive and kicking and madly in love with yet another "new man" in her life. And I have no regrets about the year I spent with her; it was an intensive learning experience, and left me feeling no doubts or regrets whatsoever about my mother. It finally freed me from her, for good.

 

[purplehaze]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

Remember these are not "mothers" - they are simply 'gestational carriers'

Honor your Father & Mother - ONLY IF THEY ARE HONORABLE.

 

[name]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

At the time of my story, I didn't see my mother more than once or twice a year, on the usual "holidays", in order to avoid her toxicity. But like the author of that blog, within a couple of years I found it necessary to cut her out of my life completely, after some events and behaviour that were over-the-top shocking, even for her. She managed to track me down and send me periodic "Why are you such a terrible daughter?" letters over the years, but I managed to have zero contact with her for almost 20 years.

I skipped city, then country, and finally cut off all contact with ALL of them because I knew they'd drag me into their sordid little world and do everything to do that. The crass thing is that since a couple of years I find myself in such a situation again, and no idea of how to get out of it. It is so repetitive of all what I had at "home" yet so unmanageable despite everything I've experienced and learnt and read since then - some of us are probably slower at learning ...

Purplehaze, BTW, thanks for all those informative posts of yours.

Addition 2008-05-21
I want to qualify my above statement for clarity. Both my SO and I have quite a history behind us, and both of us have 'health issues' of the kind being spoken about here, me probably more aware of this than her. My 'repetitive situation' is that on the one side she continually does/says things which make me go into paranoia and flight mode, but on the other side she is 200% invested in keeping the relationship, plus there are real-world issues which speak against breaking up. In any case, knowing/suspecting about my own issues I have doubts whether I am in such a situation as opposed to imagining/projecting all of this. Part out of exhaustion and part because of lacking alternatives I've opted to just let things be. The net result is that I've been continuously stressed out for the last about 6 years, and I have blood pressure so high that some times I feel woozy for days.

 

[KC Kelly]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

Thank you purplehaze for your continuous additions of links to topics on N's. As time permits, I do what I can to stay caught up. So much valuable info here.
My shortcomings have consistently been related to memory retention, discernment and application, rather than lack of sufficient time for knowledge gathering.

some of us are probably slower at learning ...

Bet I'm slower at learning than you are, name. LOL

 

[Ruth]

PREDATOR AWARENESS: Life Preserving Cues

it seems "evil disgusting human rejects" is just as much a classification as a "personality disorder," rather it's you making the classification instead of psychologists or psychiatrists.

That made me laugh because I couldn't for the life of me imagine my emotional disgust laden description of how I feel about these people making it into the DSM-IV (that's the psychiatric manual) any time soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders

It would be funny if it happened.

Session 961228

Q: (A) How can I take steps to get to the point where I can deal with them, but not so that they make me sick? It is very difficult for me to do this. It literally makes me sick.

Yeah they make me sick too.

A: Learn to laugh at that which currently disturbs you. After all, it is comical, when you think of it. Stop taking everything so seriously!!!
Q: (A) I always thought that I was able to deal with everything, but these people absolutely nauseate me. And, then I get mad at myself because I react to them. Usually I wouldn't react to them. I would not even acknowledge their existence! (L) What makes it so personal? (A) They are so low on the evolutionary scale, that they don't even see their own evil. They think that if anyone else sees the disgusting way they behave as wrong, that there is something wrong with that person, and not them!
A: Then, picture them as squawking dodo birds.
Q: (A) It is very difficult.
A: Not if you try.

Perhaps being able to ridicule them in private is a way of laughing at them and making them a lot less of a problem than they are.

could these predators you're experiencing at work be "pinches tiranitos chiquitos" (teensie-weensie petty tyrants)?

Very possibly.

i wonder if that action of assigning a classification contributes to our feeling of dis-ease when they are present.

In my case it lessens the feeling of frustration and disgust that I have and prevents me from 'lowering' myself to behave at their level or 'engage' in their game. And probably stops me from wanting to have them 'put down' like you would 'put down' a mad dog. Still think about it though... :) And it is suprising how many people make up excuses for them. Believe me, I very quickly recognise the difference between something a person cannot help doing because they are mentally ill and something that is done deliberately, with malice and intent. Its in the eyes. They are coldly calculating, always watching.

i do not mean to say that predators should be ignored or allowed to get away with feeding, not at all, nor that disgust is not an understandable reaction - rather that in engaging jest and humor, one could possibly turn off their source of food in oneself and utilize that energy towards more pragmatic goals. but so far these are only suggestions based on my own interactions and experience, i cannot speak to the dynamic you experience on a daily basis.

Yes, I wonder if that is achievable sometimes. The psychiatric/mental health professionals would say that people with personality disorders lack insight into their own treatment of others, and what motivates their behaviour etc. So much so, that maybe they don't actually want any insight into themselves. They are in fact doing the exact opposite of truly empowering themselves and instead becoming almost completely parasitic.