UFOs are fake, so y'all better straighten up!

[Beau]

There's the black people next door who listen to their rap music every day; makes me want to shoot their stereo.

Maybe you don't realize it, but that was a fairly insensitive statement to make, not to mention disturbing. You talk about your roommates as though you are so much better than them, then you do the same to your neighbors, who happen to be black, in a way that again makes it sound like you think you are better than them. But how much better are you than Rocky or your hip-hop loving neighbors if you can't tolerate the people around you and realize that not everyone is going to be interested in what you are interested in? You need to learn some external consideration.

 

[John G]

Yes! This is what I want so badly to do, especially on something as profound as intelligent life in the universe. But I don't have proof. I can't say that I know absolutely without a doubt that aliens are real. They will whittle you down until you're left with little more than beliefs or experience, which is subjective and can't be tested. Then you will be a superstitious fool, and carry that label for a long time. I feel the same way about talking to someone honestly, but the only place I am likely to have an intelligent open-minded conversation is this forum. Most everyone else falls into the Carl Sagan, virtuous Space Brothers, or don't know don't care camp. I will be surprised if anything happens to the contrary.

Maybe its a good idea to just point out new research which cast doubt on the current paradigm and wait for people and friends to come up with there own questions. I think they will remember were they heard the claim/fact from and return with a question.

Irving Ezra Segal used the geometry of the Conformal Group SU(2,2) = Spin(2,4) in his Physics Theory. In his book Mathematical Cosmology and Extragalactic Astronomy (Academic Press 1976) (pages 72-75, 88-91), Segal says:

"... The suitably scaled 15 linearly independent generators Lij of symmetries of unispace [Segal's term for the Conformal RP1 x S3 SpaceTime] ... differ from the 11 generators of the group of global conformal transformations in Minkowski space

by terms of the order 1 / R^2
[as R becomes infinite, where R is the radius of curvature of Conformal SpaceTime] ...

... The angular momenta Lij ... [ i,j = 1,2; 2,3; 3,1 ] ... have ... the same expression both in Minkowski space and in [Conformal SpaceTime] ... The same is true of the boosts ... -iL0,j ... ( j = 1,2,3 ) ... and the infinitesimal scale transformation [ L-1,4 ] ...

... The scale generator - L-1,4 ... determines a ... scalar field. This ... is most naturally interpreted from a gravitational standpoint ...

... two ordered sets, each containing four of the Lij, converge on the same ... fields in Minkowski space ... in particular, R^(-1) L-1,j and R^(-1) Lj,4 [ for j = 0,1,2,3 ] both ... agree ... [as R becomes infinite] with the [corresponding Minkowski] conventional energy-momentum component. ... The differences

L-1,j - Lj,4
thus are ... representable by a ... vector field, which physically would appear most naturally as potentially related to gravitational phenomena ... "

First,

let the Scalar Field determined by the scale generator - L-1,4 correspond to the Higgs Scalar Field.
Then,

let, for j = 0,1,2,3, the four generators
L-1,j - Lj,4
represent a vector field, what I call the GraviPhoton field.


GraviPhotons look like:

Virtual Covariant Conventional U(1) Photons, in that they have 4 Components, including Longitudina/Scalar Components; and
Vector Gravitons that can interact with the Imaginary Part of Complex Spacetime.

The 4 GraviPhoton Special Conformal transformations are like the Moebius linear fractional transformations, that do deform Minkowski spacetime but take hyperboloids into hyperboloids and are the symmetries of superluminal solutions of the Maxwell equations. They are incompressible/linear from the point of view of a 6-dimensional SpaceTime, with 4 spatial dimensions and 2 time dimensions, because the conformal group over Minkowski spacetime is just SU(2,2) = Spin(2,4), the covering group of SO(2,4), and therefore the Lie algebra generators look like those of rotations in a 6-dim vector space of signature (2,4). This is the 4-dim space with 2-dim time suggested by Robert Neil Boyd, in which things look linear (even though from our conventional 3-dim spatial or 4-dim Minkowski point of view they might appear, due to our limited conventional perspective, to be nonlinear).

The corresponding Complex Linear Fractional Moebius Transformations can be used to visualize the usefulness of GraviPhoton SpaceTime Shape-Changing. For example, the Elliptic Complex Linear Fractional Moebius Transformations can be used to make a Complex version of a type of Alcubierre Warp Drive that moves through space by the Alcubierre mechanism (Classic and Quantum Gravity 11 (1994) L73) in which you "... create a local distortion of spacetime that will produce an expansion behind the spaceship, and an opposite contraction ahead of it. In this way, the spaceship will be pushed away from the earth and pulled towards a distant star by spacetime itself. ...". Since the spacetime around the spaceship is not distorted, the spaceship and its contents feel no G-forces from acceleration.

In my recent talk at the Clifford Algebra conference - I stressed the fact that we have been brainwashed into believing that uncertainty principle prevents us from simultaneous measurements of noncommuting observables. I even compared it to the biblical warning to not eat from the tree of knowledge - otherwise terrible things gonna happen. Not only nothing terrible happens, but a door into a new reality and new possibilities opens. It is interesting that, for reasons not yet understood, the transformations of quantum states generated in a natural way during measurements of noncommuting observables belong to the conformal class (specifically: they are particular Moebius transformations). This was first anticipated by Palle Jorgensen and checked by Pertti Lounesto during the conference.

Segal died 30 August 1998 at the age of 79. A number of obituaries were published in the Notices of the AMS 46 (June/July 1999) 659-668.
In one such obituary, Edward Nelson, who had Segal as advisor for his 1955 Chicago Ph.D., quoted Segal as saying (in a 1992 publication):

"... Universal space-time is ... locally conformal to Minkowski space and globally conformal to the Einstein universe E = R1 x S3 ... These developments ... suggest that the fundamental forces of Nature are conformally invariant, but that the state of the Universe breaks the symmetry down to the Einstein isometry group. This provides an alternative to the Higgs mechanism ...
and otherwise has implications for particle physics, including

the elimination of ultraviolet divergencies in representative nonlinear quantum fields,

the formulation of a unified invariant interaction Lagrangian,

assignments of observed elementary particles to irreducible unitary positive-energy representations of the conformal group, and

the correlation of the S-matrix with the action in E of the generators of the infinite cyclic center of the simply-connected form of the conformal group. ... ".

Segal spent much time and effort on a quadratic cosmological redshift that he claimed was implicit in the physics of the Conformal Group. Segal's redshift was described by Bertram Kostant, who had Segal as advisor for his 1954 Chicago Ph.D., in another of the obituaries in the Notices of the AMS 46 (June/July 1999) 659-668.:

"... One particular nilpotent element, in the representation of SU(2,2) associated with solutions of Maxwell's equations, defines the standard operator to determine the frequencies of light waves.
[John Baez, who had Segal as advisor for his 1986 MIT Ph.D., says: "... That's the generator of Minkowski time translations. ... If you use the Minkowski Hamiltonian everywhere (there's one for each observer) you don't get the redshift. ... ".]

But Irving focused on another element with a nonnegative spectrum, an element that was elliptic and not nilpotent, but closely related ... This elliptic element has beautiful mathematical properties, like generating an invariant cone. ... This elliptic element is at the heart of Segal's cosmological theory.
[John Baez says: "... That's the generator of Einstein time translations. ... if you use the Einstein Hamiltonian everywhere you don't get the redshift. ... ".]

What he is saying is that it is the elliptic element that should be used to determine the energy of an electromangnetic wave, and not the nilpotent element.
[John Baez says: "... But if we do that *everywhere*, we simply get physics on the Einstein universe R x S^3 - no redshift. ... ".]

The redshift ... is accounted for by the difference between the elliptic and nilpotent element - negligible locally, but significant at great distances. ...".
[John Baez says: "... Aha: this is the tricky part. How is it "accounted for by the difference" between these elements, exactly? ... ".]

I. E. Segal, H. P. Jakobsen, B. Oersted, S. M. Paneitz, and B. Speh, in their article Covariant chronogeometry and extreme distances: Elementary particles (Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. USA 78 (1981) 5261-5265, at page 5261), say: "... the energy of a photon in ...[ Conformal Unispace ]... splits Lorentz-covariantly into a local and delocalized part. The local part is represented by the conventional energy operator in ...[ Minkowski space-time ]... , which can be regarded as a submanifold of ...[ Conformal Unispace ]... ; the delocalized part drives, essentially as an interaction hamiltonian, a redshift in very good agreement with objective observations on galaxies and quasars. ...".
John Baez says: "... Segal used to say the dynamics of distant stars was governed by the Einstein Hamiltonian but we saw them from the Minkowski viewpoint. However, he never clarified how this should actually work. ...".

In my opinion, it might work like this:

Our base-line experimental data for spectral lines comes from local (Earth-based or Solar-Earth) experiments all of which lie that a region representable by Minkowski space-time;
Our long-distance astronomical spectral line observations come from experiments that extend beyond our local region representable by Minkowski space-time, so that the relevant regions of our long-distance astronomical spectral line observations must be represented by Conformal Unispace. Such Conformal Unispace measurements of spectral lines will, as Segal, Jakobsen, Oersted, Paneitz, and Speh say, give "... a redshift in very good agreement with objective observations on galaxies and quasars ...".
Bertram Kostant said, in his Segal obituary article:

"... I have it from a highly reliable but unnamed source that there is a growing group of cosmologists who have come to believe that the correct understanding of the redshift is some sort of fusion of the Doppler effect and Irving's theory. So it is not impossible that Irving could turn out to be correct after all. ...".
I asked Bertram Kostant about that quote, and he said that he did not name the source because the source requested anonymity because he (the source) wanted to avoid entanglement in the heated controversy that surrounds Segal's redshift ideas. I think that it is regrettable that interesting scientific ideas become so involved in unpleasant controversy that competent people become are intimidated from discussing such ideas. As to how and why Segal's ideas became controversial, Edward Nelson, in his Segal obituary article, said:
"... Part of the reason lies in Segal's style of scientific exchange - at times is resembles that of Giordano Bruno (later burned at the stake), who very shortly after his arrival in Geneva issued a pamphlet on Twenty Errors Committed by Professor De la Faye in a Single Lesson. But part of the fault lies with cosmologists and particle physicists intent on defending turf. ...".
As to what "... sort of fusion of the Doppler effect and Irving's theory ..." might turn out to be true, Segal, in the General Conclusions section (pages 187-191) of his book Mathematical Cosmology and ExtraGalactic Astronomy (Academic 1976) says:

"... In principle, there is no difficulty in combining the chronometric redshift theory with some degree of expansion in accordance with a closed Friedmann model. As long as the rate of expansion is kept sufficiently low ... the basic features of the Friedmann theory and its correlation with cosmology, apart from the redshift itself, would be retained. Such a mixed theory cannot be excluded on a purely statistical basis, and would permit conventional ideas concerning the evolution and age of galaxies to persist in the combined theory without essential change. ...
... it remains to be explored to what extent observational estimates of [such things as] the mass density of the universe ...[and]... energy production in galactic nuclei and quasars ... may be affected by employment of the chronometric ... excess of the unienergy ... over the special relativistic energy ... i.e., of the ... energy corresponding to the difference between the two times involved in the theory (... shown to be positive) ... The amount of energy involved is ... quite substantial ...".

In their tribute to Irving Ezra Segal (Notices of the AMS 48 (January 2001) 9-16), Auber Daigneault and Arturo Sangalli say:

"... It is not unthinkable that a rehabilitation of ... a cosmological constant ... /\ ... greater than zero ..., originally related to the radius r of S3 ...[of Segal's]... EU = R x S3 ... by the equation r = /\^(-(1/2)), could ... help Irving Ezra Segal's chronometric cosmology get the attention it deserves. ...".
I want to conclude this section of this web page with another quote from Edward Nelson's Segal obituary article

"... It is rare for a mathematician to produce a life work that at the time can be fully and confidently evaluated by no one, but the full impact of the work of Irving Ezra Segal will become known only to future generations."
and

with a comment that at least one person, Alexander Levichev, is working on Segal's ideas by conducting a seminar on Newton-Einstein-Segal, studying ways to apply Segal's ideas to Modelling Consciousness, and by putting on the web in ps format a paper entitled On Mathematical Foundations and Physical Applications of Chronometry ( which paper was published in the book "Semigroups in Algebra, Geometry and Analysis" ( ed. by Hofmann, Lawson, and Vinberg, Walter de Gruyter and Co, 1995 )).

 

[Neil]

So which subject are you supposed to be studying -- astrophysics isn't it?

Yep, the title of the course is Physics and Space Sciences Seminar. Yesterday's lecture was weird too. He spent much of the class telling us about his youth looking for ghosts and UFOs; hoping to win the Nobel Prize for discovering exotic lifeforms. At some point in his life; he'd heard so many false stories that he gave up hope on that and started researching particle physics. I don't remember the story exactly, but he started out majoring in philosophy, then moved to mathematics, and then to physics. Each of these changes corresponded to a major change in his perception of the world. He told us he could hypnotize us and show us how easily very realistic paranormal phenomenon can be easily faked. I wanted to take him up on that offer, but I have a bad feeling about it... He told us instead to focus on the wonder of the subatomic world; because the possiblilities there are much more fascinating than the empty promise of "paranormal conspiracies." I agree that the subatomic world is very interesting, and one of the professors is going to lecture us about his research at CERN. He's on the team looking for the Higgs Boson. I believe that the paranormal emphasis will fade, because we have to get going on real material sooner or later; they just need to make sure everyone has been "properly educated." Perhaps the course is right on target; teaching a little science while integrating a healthy amount of damage control at the same time. I still have to laugh at that video. I can't believe his only counterexample to UFO proponents is a hubcap and a cropcircle of his own creation. Oh, and the rationalization that because these are examples of fakery, all UFOs are fake. How do people who make these kinds of claims get that far in life? I wonder if he is COINTELPRO. His satirical manner does a good job entertaining the crowd and making a weak argument look superficially strong. ted.com was another site that was recommended to us. There are a lot of novel and interesting ideas there; but they are a very normal group, obviously unaware of the global conspiracies going on. Too bad, some of it is actually pretty inspiring.

Cognitive neuro science and philosophy.

Yeah, the power of the mind is something that has been debated about for quite some time. If the metaphysical idea is true; wouldn't that be revolutionary. The consciousness is a timeless ethereal thing that can eventually gain the power to control reality itself. It sounds like something that could be very interesting, but I guess you don't get to study "cognitive neuro science and metaphysical applications."

Maybe its a good idea to just point out new research which cast doubt on the current paradigm and wait for people and friends to come up with there own questions.

Makes sense. It's a good way of working within the system.

You need to learn some external consideration.

Ok, I will try this external consideration. You can point out flaws in my reasoning and idiocies if you choose.
Statement: They are ignorant.
Question: What defines ignorance?
Consideration: I could be considered ignorant by some. Labeling a person as ignorant is relative to the accuser.
Conclusion: We are both ignorant from someone's perspective.

Question: Why do I think they are ignorant?
Hypothesis: They do not care about things which are of global import; ponerology, spirituality, UFOs, etc.
Consideration: These are things which I deem important and may not be of universal importance.
Refined Hypothesis: They do not conform to a way of thinking that I believe is superior.
Leading to: My subjectivity is better than their subjectivity.
Leading to: Their freewill is not respected.
Conclusion: I don't like the way they think.
Further Consideration: They may not be at the point on the learning cycle where this has relevance to them.
Consideration: They must choose for themselves. If they choose ignorance, that is their choice.
Consideration: I must've once chose the same kind of ignorance when learning those lessons.(That one is difficult to admit.)
Leading to: We are not really that different, just at different points on the learning cycle.
Moralism: One should not view themselves as superior to anyone else because people have freewill and different lessons and perceptions.
Program: It still makes me mad.
Program: I feel superior because I am relatively non-ignorant.

Final Conclusion: Even though I have determined that my judgement of ignorance is arbitrary, this distinction of ignorance and non-ignorance holds some type of special meaning to me which has been shown to be illusionary. There seems to be no logical reason for this behavior.

To answer your question, no, it doesn't really make me better than them, though I must admit I did feel that I was when I was writing that post. The rap music was activating the "It makes me mad" program. I don't know if that's what you wanted me to find, but it seems that my behavior is feeding the two illogical statements I labeled as programs. I think it will take more than mere recognition to fix them though. I really have no intention of touching the guy's stereo; but these things pass through my mind when my buttons are pushed.

John G- Actually, my professors don't think superluminal travel is that outlandish of an idea; though they are skeptical. However, I've heard that superluminal travel opens the door to time travel and time loops and leads into hyperdimensional realities to an extent. I don't think they've considered all the possibilities that it leads to; especially since they regard it as only a hypothesis. I've also heard that to warp space-time to such a degree as to travel faster than the speed of light requires unheard of amounts of energy. And that an intelligent species would only tap this to do really important things because high speed travel is expensive. This restriction might apply only to extraterrestrials and not ultraterrestrials, because things are different in 4-D. This is one of the things my professor has said against the UFO phenomenon. It would either take them too long to get here or it would cost too much energy to just come here and abduct people. I've also heard that aliens use matter-antimatter reactions to power their starships, and I've also heard they use ununpentium as a source of fuel.(which to my knowledge is ridiculously unstable) I've been several places looking for methods of superluminal propulsion, but I am mostly dabbling in papers that are way beyond anything I've studied. I'm not entirely cognizant of the physics involved. I mean, if you had a kg of plutonium and a kg of anti-plutonium(if you could even find it), would it be possible to power one of these warp drives?

John, you always have the most fascinating documentation to bring to the table. Are you a scientist or is this kind of thing just something you have been studying for a long time? You seem to have a lot of interesting information and ideas.

 

[Third_Density_Resident]

Well for the record Neil, I didn't think your statement about the black people and their rap-music playing every day was offensive at all. That part was a mere statement of fact.

Your comment about wanting to shoot their stereo I interpreted in a light-hearted way, because I know that when I get angry sometimes I also think irrational, slightly comedic (in retrospect), heat-of-the-moment thoughts; but in stable people such thoughts remain just that and aren't realised. It is obviously a flaw, and one that I need to address, but it doesn't affect anyone outside of myself. It also has nothing to do with the kind of people who incite this anger -- it is invariably due to one thing called NOISE or disturbance.

Having said all that, I think it's quite inconsiderate for people to be so noisy when students are most probably trying to focus on their studies. It is an objective fact that certain types of music are far more conducive to concentration than others. Rap music is generally NOT one of these types of music, by the way, but I'm sure you already guessed that.

You need to learn some external consideration.

And clearly, as I've just mentioned above, so do Neil's neighbours. Have you ever tried to concentrate on something (or indeed SLEEP) when there's noise going on around you? It's a nightmare! (And if you say: 'But everyone has a right to leisure' or something along these lines, I must reply that I agree, but if that leisure impinges upon another person in a negative way, then it's inappropriate, inconsiderate, and downright rude. Haven't people heard of headphones?)

He told us instead to focus on the wonder of the subatomic world; because the possiblilities there are much more fascinating than the empty promise of "paranormal conspiracies."

How ironic. Little does this guy realise that it's the study of the subatomic world that will give MORE understanding about the 'paranormal'!

 

[Renaissance]

Well for the record Neil, I didn't think your statement about the black people and their rap-music playing every day was offensive at all. That part was a mere statement of fact.

Along with Beau, I also found Neil's statement disturbing. The statement didn't just say that his neighbors' music is annoying, but that it was black people playing hip-hop (and ironically Niel's imagination conjured up 'shooting images' that can be heard in some kinds of rap). His statement may be racist or perhaps culturally bigoted, and this would be in line with the other bigotry he's showing. Why even say what color of skin his neighbors had? What purpose does it serve? Now, I doubt this is conscious, particularly because Neil seems to believe he is 'spiritual.' But there's the rub. How can we think we are 'spiritual' when we are bigoted at the same time? I guess what makes this easy is our fragmentation of i's.

And so, TDR, I also wonder about your comments. You talk about 'the black people and their rap music.' The language you use is distant and impersonal, as if people who happen to have a different skin tone and music interest are separate from you. You even take Neil's words as a 'mere statement of fact' and 'lighthearted.'

Neil brought up ignorance, and I think it has a lot to do with what we're talking about. Ignorance has as much to to with intellectual capacity as it does with our emotional capacity. In this way, a Nobel prize winner can be more ignorant than those who have had to raise themselves on the streets (which reminds me how so called 'intellectuals' often have a great lack of common sense, also called street smarts). Often enough our emotional sleep keep us from developing real intellectual ability. Our emotional center needs to be awakened so we can read and interact with our environment effectively, and really a lot of the meaning we can get from life seems to be in how we interact with one another. When an emotional center is asleep, it seems any knowledge gained is just used for pointless interaction with our self (or selves). When knowledge is confined like this it would seem it's non-use inhibits the development our true self as well. We don't gain any understanding of meaning through these limited means.

It also has nothing to do with the kind of people who incite this anger -- it is invariably due to one thing called NOISE or disturbance.

Perhaps the reaction has a lot to do with seeing inconsideration in others. Perhaps we're angered by the mirror we're seeing in others?

You need to learn some external consideration.

And clearly, as I've just mentioned above, so do Neil's neighbours. Have you ever tried to concentrate on something (or indeed SLEEP) when there's noise going on around you? It's a nightmare!

But the thing is Niel's neighbors aren't here seeking to work on themselves. Neil is. I don't have much of a problem asking someone to turn their music down if it too loud, and in all the times I've done this I've never came across anyone who wasn't willing to do so. "Hey, can you please turn it down," works pretty good, even if it needs to be done on multiple occasions. If it doesn't, in a college setting there are other avenues to use, such as making a complaint to a residential assistant or who ever is in charge of maintaining order on the floor. I think a lot of the 'nightmare' comes from the resistance to overcome fear and self importance.

I'm also concerned about the electrosmog factor.

You might be interested in the benefits of wearing silk, which may give some protection against this pollution. There's been forum members who have experimented with its use with positive results. Personally, I love the stuff. I've been collecting some data from the cass-chat discussions along with some other info, and I'm planning on posting a thread on it in the diet and health section in a couple days. There's also bits and pieces mentioned on this forum that you could search for but there's nothing really comprehensive yet.

Also, for the past couple of days I've been experimenting with wearing EMF shielding clothes that have also had interesting results. I got the clothing at _lessemf.com and will start a thread on it in the diet and health section soon.

 

[Laura]

And so, TDR, I also wonder about your comments. You talk about 'the black people and their rap music.' The language you use is distant and impersonal, as if people who happen to have a different skin tone and music interest are separate from you. You even take Neil's words as a 'mere statement of fact' and 'lighthearted.'

I have to say that rap music is not the exclusive purview of black people. In fact, some of the most offensive acts of atmospheric pollution via rap music are perpetrated by snotty "white kids" in their fancy boom-boom cars. Fortunately, this has not become so popular here in France. But, it was driving me nuts in the U.S. before we left. Those ding-a-lings would drive down our street at 4 a.m. with that horrible racket booming, shaking the walls, windows and bed, and generally giving me a near heart attack!

When they would drive up behind me on the road, or sit next to me at a traffic light, I would feel the heat rising from my solar plexus and fantasies of having a turret gun on top of my van and just blowing them off the road floated through my mind... !!!

I don't have much of a problem asking someone to turn their music down if it too loud, and in all the times I've done this I've never came across anyone who wasn't willing to do so. "Hey, can you please turn it down," works pretty good, even if it needs to be done on multiple occasions.

Well, I have experienced real cretins who, when you ask them to "turn it down," actually turn it louder. When we lived out in the country in FL, one of these types bought the land (6 acres) next door and hauled in a big mobile home and proceeded to play music so loud that my bed shook 6 acres away. We repeatedly asked them to turn it down, and they repeatedly turned it louder. Then, they would get out there in the middle of the night and start shooting!

So, one night after this started again, I went out with a hammer and a big metal washtub and began banging on it by the fence between the properties. They came rushing out and demanded to know why I was messing up their music. I told them their music was messing up my sleep, that we had moved to the country for peace and quiet. The guy said "Well, I moved out here so I could play my music as loud as I want and that's what I'm gonna do!"

So, I began meditating on silence. I simply "imagined" or visualized being in my home surrounded by the sounds of nature. Pretty soon, the guy's wife left him and wiped out his bank account; he lost his trailer, his land, his stereo, and all was quiet again.

Strange how the universe operates, eh?

Neil brought up ignorance, and I think it has a lot to do with what we're talking about. Ignorance has as much to to with intellectual capacity as it does with our emotional capacity. In this way, a Nobel prize winner can be more ignorant than those who have had to raise themselves on the streets (which reminds me how so called 'intellectuals' often have a great lack of common sense, also called street smarts). Often enough our emotional sleep keep us from developing real intellectual ability. Our emotional center needs to be awakened so we can read and interact with our environment effectively, and really a lot of the meaning we can get from life seems to be in how we interact with one another. When an emotional center is asleep, it seems any knowledge gained is just used for pointless interaction with our self (or selves). When knowledge is confined like this it would seem it's non-use inhibits the development our true self as well. We don't gain any understanding of meaning through these limited means.

I have created a new thread in response to this last paragraph. See:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=7197.msg50812#msg50812

 

[Beau]

Question: Why do I think they are ignorant?
Hypothesis: They do not care about things which are of global import; ponerology, spirituality, UFOs, etc.
Consideration: These are things which I deem important and may not be of universal importance.
Refined Hypothesis: They do not conform to a way of thinking that I believe is superior.
Leading to: My subjectivity is better than their subjectivity.
Leading to: Their freewill is not respected.
Conclusion: I don't like the way they think.

So what. They live in a dorm at a university. It's ignorant to expect people to be like you, especially young kids at college. You are the one who is ignorant if you didn't expect people like your roommates and neighbors to be in your presence. It's strange that you say they "do not conform to a way of thinking that I believe is superior". Their are a bunch of implications to be made from that statement.

1. Your self-importance is shining brightly.
2. You identify with your intellectual pursuits
3. You say you are not ignorant, but judging people based on their own choices IS ignorance. It is being ignorant of the fact that everyone has the free will to choose. You are on some high horse of superiority that doesn't even exist, except in your own subjective illusions. So, your subjectivity is NOT "better" than theirs. In fact, it's worse, since they do not judge you so harshly for your choices.

Program: It still makes me mad.
Program: I feel superior because I am relatively non-ignorant.

See above.

I really have no intention of touching the guy's stereo; but these things pass through my mind when my buttons are pushed.

You should be prepared for more button pushing. You live in a dorm at a college campus, not MIT. I have been in the same "place" as all the people you really don't care for. It's life. Deal with it, and stop judging others because your too special to be bothered with such juvenile pursuits.

 

[Beau]

Well for the record Neil, I didn't think your statement about the black people and their rap-music playing every day was offensive at all. That part was a mere statement of fact.

Excuse me? What fact? You are being just as short-sighted as Neil. I see more white folks blasting rap through their car stereos these days than anyone. That's not the point though. His statement was offensive. It's lumping a group of people together because of the actions of a few.

Your comment about wanting to shoot their stereo I interpreted in a light-hearted way, because I know that when I get angry sometimes I also think irrational, slightly comedic (in retrospect), heat-of-the-moment thoughts;

That's contradictory. It's not light-hearted if you are in the heat of the moment. It means one is angry, they are identifying with the programs that have been triggered.

but in stable people such thoughts remain just that and aren't realised. It is obviously a flaw, and one that I need to address, but it doesn't affect anyone outside of myself. It also has nothing to do with the kind of people who incite this anger -- it is invariably due to one thing called NOISE or disturbance.

First, you are assuming that those emotions don't affect anyone else. I think you're projecting here. You may not let if affect your disposition, but certainly someone else may develop an attitude towards others which will come out in direct communication in one way or the other, whether subtle or not. Second, if you live in a dorm on a campus and are surprised and/or affected by noise, you just haven't realized what a completely common situation this is. If someone is truly disturbed by it, then you need to either move out or go to the library or something. It isn't going to do any good to get upset, cuz the noise ain't going away!

Having said all that, I think it's quite inconsiderate for people to be so noisy when students are most probably trying to focus on their studies.

That's why universities have libraries. Sure, people are going to be loud. They are kids who are finally out on their own. If one didn't expect that, they just didn't realize what they were getting into.

It is an objective fact that certain types of music are far more conducive to concentration than others. Rap music is generally NOT one of these types of music, by the way, but I'm sure you already guessed that.

It's not objective. Musical preferences are totally subjective. I for one have no problem listening to rap and concentrating. To each his/her own.

And clearly, as I've just mentioned above, so do Neil's neighbours.

Their is a difference. Neil is not asleep, he is supposed to be waking up and understanding the way people are and his own machine. External consideration is not meant to be expected of the whole world. And like I mentioned above, certainly not of the people who are in Neil's dormitory. If one is prepared for what dorm life is like, then the conditions which Neil originally mentioned would not have triggered his emotional programs. It was his feeling of superiority over others who have not chosen to awaken that is the problem here, not the personalities which he is required to live with.

 

[John G]

Actually, my professors don't think superluminal travel is that outlandish of an idea; though they are skeptical. However, I've heard that superluminal travel opens the door to time travel and time loops and leads into hyperdimensional realities to an extent. I don't think they've considered all the possibilities that it leads to; especially since they regard it as only a hypothesis.

Yes given superluminal, you get time travel. Your professors, I'm sure are aware of this. Brian Greene mentions time travel on his PBS specials, mostly for entertainment purposes, he's skeptical too.

I've also heard that to warp space-time to such a degree as to travel faster than the speed of light requires unheard of amounts of energy. And that an intelligent species would only tap this to do really important things because high speed travel is expensive.

The large energy calculations for warp drives via gravity come from having to build the warp bubble around the ship. They can only make a bubble the size of a proton without effecting the order of magnitude for the total energy. With conformal degrees of freedom, the warp drive does not need a bubble.

This restriction might apply only to extraterrestrials and not ultraterrestrials, because things are different in 4-D. This is one of the things my professor has said against the UFO phenomenon. It would either take them too long to get here or it would cost too much energy to just come here and abduct people.

I think 4-D can be thought of as coming via wormholes (also a conformal degrees of freedom thing). The Bermuda Triangle or Philadelphia Experiment do not seem to have used up the whole earth energy-wise. The Wave according to Ark is also a conformal thing, apparently 3-D ships like that route.

I've also heard that aliens use matter-antimatter reactions to power their starships, and I've also heard they use ununpentium as a source of fuel.(which to my knowledge is ridiculously unstable) I've been several places looking for methods of superluminal propulsion, but I am mostly dabbling in papers that are way beyond anything I've studied. I'm not entirely cognizant of the physics involved. I mean, if you had a kg of plutonium and a kg of anti-plutonium(if you could even find it), would it be possible to power one of these warp drives?

Trying to get gravitons instead of photons out of matter-antimatter reactions is the conventional warp drive idea. For conformal drives according to Tony you need "a flow of Spin 1/2 Electron Spinors, which is effectively Dragging by Torsion in Einstein-Cartan Gravity". Tony's suggestion for this is a fermion version of a Bose-Einstein Condensate (uses Cooper pairs of electrons).

John, you always have the most fascinating documentation to bring to the table. Are you a scientist or is this kind of thing just something you have been studying for a long time? You seem to have a lot of interesting information and ideas.

I was an engineer and programmer at IBM for 18 years but it was my hobby (beginning in my teens) of Jungian psychology that got me to Tony's huge website and it was Tony who gave me a link to Ark's Quantum Future site. I'm actually a rather lazy researcher, the universe had to work quite hard in lots of places to put things in my lap. Tony had Ark's link on his site but I never clicked on it and the only reason Tony sent sent me Ark's link by email was I sent a semi-heated note to an Ark on a forum who Tony thought was our Ark but some months later I confirmed it was a different Ark. Apparently anger does really work in mysterious ways.

 

[mudrabbit]

I have to say that rap music is not the exclusive purview of black people. In fact, some of the most offensive acts of atmospheric pollution via rap music are perpetrated by snotty "white kids" in their fancy boom-boom cars.

actually, (just a bit of trivia here), Blondie was one artist that made rap popular. So it's not exclusively a "black" thing :)

Peg

 

[John G]

actually, (just a bit of trivia here), Blondie was one artist that made rap popular. So it's not exclusively a "black" thing :)

Yeah the Man from Mars, kind of appropriate for the thread. My 17 year old nephew plays his rap much quieter than I play my Fleetwood Mac, so "loud" isn't exclusively young either. Mick Fleetwood says right in the liner notes to play it loud, so I'm just following the instructions :) I actually mentioned the man from mars (actually entitled Rapture) to my nephew while listening to another Blondie song on the radio (that he liked).

 

[Kesdjan]

Beau and Shane, read Neil's statement again.

There's the black people next door who listen to their rap music every day; makes me want to shoot their stereo.

Well for the record Neil, I didn't think your statement about the black people and their rap-music playing every day was offensive at all. That part was a mere statement of fact.

Excuse me? What fact? You are being just as short-sighted as Neil. I see more white folks blasting rap through their car stereos these days than anyone. That's not the point though. His statement was offensive. It's lumping a group of people together because of the actions of a few.

I agree that Neil is running a superiority program, but that statement is nor racist. The key word here is 'the', which signifies a subset of a particular class, in this case "black people". He could have just as well said "the white suburbanites who listen to their rap music everyday", which would also not be racist. Methinks you guys are running, if I may coin a term, the "Al Sharpton program", which comes from using an ambiguous definition of racism (which I always thought was the doctrine that any race was superior to any other, whether morally, intellectually, physically, or otherwise).

Neil, has it ever occurfed to you to just ask them to turn their music down? If they don't (and especially if their so selfish as to turn it up) you can always complain? It may be better to just learn to tune it out, because the option to complain may not always be open in the future.

When he tried it on me I said "I suppose anyone who doesn't conform to your demands is a "deusch". I'm not your slave, find someone else to bother." He kept his distance after that.

From what I understand, this is not being externally considerate. You could try saying something like "I don't mind what you two call each other, but could you please leave me out of it, I'm very busy and need to study/sleep/etc.". You could also play a "role" and just go along with it, after all why such a strong reaction to being called a "deusch", what do you care? I think this will ease the some of the tension and make "life easier for yourself", osit.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Mental association between a kind of music and a culture or a race may have a lot to do with your experiences in childhood. If you got picked on by kids who listened to rap, you might grow up to hate it, and if you hear it, you may think of those kids (or vice versa, see someone who reminds you of those kids, and instantly think of rap). At least that was my experience. I was picked on by some kids who listened to rock and heavy metal. I started to hate rock and heavy metal and associated it to arrogant stupid bullies. So I stayed away from it, I never cared for it as a result.

My family had a few jazz musicians and I grew up around their friends, etc. I found that jazz musicians, including those who like to think of themselves as "humble", may have a lot of contempt/arrogance for musicians of other music styles, and those styles themselves. This seems pretty common. They'd consider jazz the only music that takes any skill, and everything else being just child's play, and people who are interested in those kinds of music being "inferior" - that they are simply not able to understand jazz, and are therefore on a "lower level".

So with the pressure from both of these things, I thought I "like" jazz and simply "dislike" other stuff. I ended up missing a whole realm of music as a result of this conditioning, under the impression that it was just me, just my own preference. I only addressed those programs in last few years, and frankly I'm amazed by how much I've been missing. First, those very "rock" musicians that I've been conditioned to avoid actually have some of the most meaningful, deepest, and truest lyrics of any genre that addressed very important issues. Actually, I and many of those "jazz aficionados" were never at the level required to understand the meaning behind many of those songs, and I've only begun to understand recently. And actually, a lot of those same jazz musicians CANNOT play those rock or pop songs, despite claiming to be "so far above the music of the simpletons". I know because I've known some of the greatest jazz musicians, and they were like total amateurs when they had to do something as simple as just play a steady beat (like a Disco song).

But ya know, ignorance is not just relative. It's also extremely multifaceted. You cannot say someone is ignorant relatively to you in all things - some things maybe, but only some things. You never know what life experiences have taught those around you, and what wisdom they may share with you if you only let them. Doesn't matter that they are programmed or not, remember what G said about the "obyvatel". When it is said to be "in this world but not of it", it doesn't mean you should completely not take those in this world seriously simply because they're not consciously doing the Work. You don't just "start learning lessons" at the moment you consciously discover the concept of the Work. If you only allow it, people will teach you a great deal - just because someone is a sex-obsessed loud-music listening dork doesn't mean they cannot teach you many things. Don't let people's "habits" and "programs" make you assume that this is all there is to them.

But for a little perspective, consider how "superior" the C's, if they exist, would be from you. And yet, how humble and patient and mirthful they are. There really is no justification for looking "down" at someone, no matter how "advanced" you may be in anything. The whole "I'm right cuz I'm doing the Work and they're not" program is exactly that - a program, an illusion. Just treat people as people, as your peers, because they are. You may have done the Work to some extent, but so what? Don't underestimate how much life can teach someone. Have you never done anything that someone else found annoying? Would it be right of them to assume/judge that you are on a certain "level" because of that action without ever allowing themselves to get to know you and see if there is more to you than that single annoying action? So why do this to others?

 

[anart]

The key word here is 'the', which signifies a subset of a particular class, in this case "black people". He could have just as well said "the white suburbanites who listen to their rap music everyday", which would also not be racist.

Just a point - you seem to be being just a tad 'legalistic' with this line of thinking, kesdjan - why did he refer to the race of the individuals at all? Referring to the race at all indicates a racial bias, whether it is subconscious or not.

Another small point since we seem to be so concerned with Neil's dorm at the moment - do you, Neil, not have RA's - resident assistants - who monitor noise and such? I agree with Beau that noise is part and parcel of dorm life - not much you can do about it, but if someone is abusive with it, then it's the RA's job to take care of that.

It basically sounds like Neil is running all sorts of 'out of my comfort zone' and 'I'm not in control of my surroundings' and 'I'm too good for this' programs - a lot to utilize and learn from there if he so chooses.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Neil, has it ever occurfed to you to just ask them to turn their music down? If they don't (and especially if their so selfish as to turn it up) you can always complain? It may be better to just learn to tune it out, because the option to complain may not always be open in the future.

do you, Neil, not have RA's - resident assistants - who monitor noise and such? I agree with Beau that noise is part and parcel of dorm life - not much you can do about it, but if someone is abusive with it, then it's the RA's job to take care of that.

Both Kesdjan and anart above have a point: first ask them to turn the music down politely and if that does not work, ask the RAs. I have lived in a dorm before, and it is very common that the students would spent their free time 'playing' around. There were couple of times that my roommates would start blaring their music and shaking my room. First, I'd ask them to turn it down because I would need to study. When they didn't listen, I went to RAs, who did the job. Studying comes first, you know. Of course, there were couple of times that they didn't listen to the RAs and started blasting anyway...so I'd just turned off my hearing aid and ignore them. Wear earplugs if you need to.

fwiw.