Serious situation

[Nienna]

As you have stated, I think we are both narcissistically wounded, and that it affects us both in contrasting ways. When faced with some form of difficult situation - My automatic response is to try and place blame on ANYONE else other than myself, and to make certain expectations which ( I can see in hindsight) are completely unrealistic and STS. This does not help the relationship in any way because Thorn tends to do the opposite - to blame everything on herself. Which usually leads to the same scenario playing out over and over again.

I have read ISOTM, it has helped me understand alot just the first time reading it, and when I look back at situations where I am being controlling and abusive I can observe how mechanical I can be (I remind myself of my mother or father). I say to myself 'next time self remember' 'observe' but as you said... the programmes cannot just be switched off and when the next situation crops up it seems as if it is already too late, I am identified and have already switched between multiple different I's. To be able to spot it in another's scenario is one thing although it is certainly very difficult applying it to MYSELF and my own relationships.

This is very encouraging, keyhole. A very big step in controlling our programs is knowing that we have them. And, I know that it is very hard to point out our own programs to others, as you have done here, and with Thorn. So kudos to you.

When you say that keyhole likes to be as honest as possible, do you mean that he always tells the truth, or tries to?

When am in an emotional state I CLAIM to be honest at all times, and in that very moment I truly believe this is the case. It is so easy to lie to oneself, and this is one lie that very often I believe. When saying things like this to Thorn - knowing that she has not read any of G's material - I take advantage of her knowledge (or 'lack of') of what G explains about lying to oneself and everyone else. This is not a 'conscious' decision to do this, I genuinely forget all that I have read previously in that moment and it is only afterwards that I attempt to asses what may have actually happened.

Yes, we lie to others, and ourselves, all of the time until we can start to get control of it. And the fact that your cannot see it "in the moment", but only afterwards is how the process of observing ourselves works. The more you observe yourself running this program, the more you will be able to see it sooner, as in while it is running, then, you will see it as it starts and, pretty soon, you will be able to cut it off at the pass, so to speak. So you are on the right track. :)

Thorn, please don't be too hard on yourself while you are trying to get programs under control.

I would like to add that it is very often ME who feels like the victim and make Thorn out to be the victimizer. When this is far from reality - if anything, I am the victimizer in this relationship! And due to both of our sets of programmes running simultaneously - this continues to happen... It is only today that I observed one of my programmes and caught it before it took complete control, I had a cigarette and we sat down and spoke about it in a calm way... I honestly hope things will improve with a broader knowledge base for us both - and intense inner struggle ( which hurts so much at the time! )

Excellent. And even better that you two could sit and discuss it. As far as you making Thorn out to be the "bad guy", it's fairly common with narcissistically wounded people. However, that's not much consolation for Thorn. Since both of you are Working as a pair, complete honesty with each other, and yourselves, is really important. It should help immensely if you two would come to the network with any problems that arise so that you can get the feedback from the network - that's what it's here for. If you feel embarrassed doing this, it is only internal considering. You need to decide what is more important to you, your self-importance, or becoming a better person. Networking on problems gives several different points of view, or maybe several of the same point of view which would be very telling.

And, if keyhole's brother is a psychopath, he will be very good at hiding it. So just because he has become different, it just means that he has really secured his mask. Psychopaths are good at making people think that they were wrong about them, or even start to make people think that they are going crazy by accusing a psychopath of doing something wrong. So keep both of your guards up.

In regards to my brother - as Happyliza explained, he seems to have completely ponerized my family since I was away. They excuse all that is said or done, put it down to 'immaturity' and therefore attack me and Thorn when we dare to say anything that opposes this. It is upsetting for me seeing my mother attempt to deal with this situation the way that she sees best, when I am aware of his manipulations. Thorn explained her opinion that the best way is to let her deal with it herself and not to break her free will, which is something I do a lot as well. The 'Saving my mum' programme I guess.

It is very hard to watch people get taken in by psychopaths, or pathological people so the way you feel is normal.

It has been proven that psychopaths are VERY good at getting people on their side and keeping them there. Even when it was shown to these people that the psychopath had been lying to them, stealing from them, etc., a lot of the people continued to stand by the psychopath. So, yes, they have to learn on their own - if they ever do.

If you have to live with, or stay in contact with your family, don't discuss your brother with them. If they bring up the conversation, just say that you have nothing to say about the matter. At least, that is how I see it. Doing anything else will only push them farther from you - which thinking about it may not be so bad for you two.

Thankyou again

You're welcome. ;)

 

[Keyhole]

It should help immensely if you two would come to the network with any problems that arise so that you can get the feedback from the network - that's what it's here for. If you feel embarrassed doing this, it is only internal considering. You need to decide what is more important to you, your self-importance, or becoming a better person. Networking on problems gives several different points of view, or maybe several of the same point of view which would be very telling.

I would like to participate on the forum much more than I have been doing... I sometimes feel fearful that I may appear to only want to speak about MYself an MY problems. I see many others on the different threads providing some incredible feedback and I think to myself - "Do I have anything valuable to say?" I see that there is so much knowledge and wisdom here, which I do not have at this time, and I think about the "noise" that I will probably be producing.

Perhaps it is my self importance. Perhaps it is fear of unearthing things about myself that I am not consciously aware of, and that people here will be able to see.

It has been proven that psychopaths are VERY good at getting people on their side and keeping them there. Even when it was shown to these people that the psychopath had been lying to them, stealing from them, etc., a lot of the people continued to stand by the psychopath. So, yes, they have to learn on their own - if they ever do.

If you have to live with, or stay in contact with your family, don't discuss your brother with them. If they bring up the conversation, just say that you have nothing to say about the matter. At least, that is how I see it. Doing anything else will only push them farther from you - which thinking about it may not be so bad for you two.

In Without a Conscience by Robert Hare he gives a very good example of the psychopath who was a local member of Parliament running for Governor. (or something, I cannot remember the exact details) And when he was found out the people made excuses for him! Haha Ponerology came in the post today and I am excited to start reading it (after Martha Stout SND)

Thorn said something similar today, that MY lesson is to keep quiet about these things and only speak when necessary! It sure is difficult when I am being accused of being in a 'cult' - Yes... thats right, my mother has done her 'research' in Laura! And I can get VERY defensive and VERY protective over laura when she attacks her work (which only make her think I am more brainwashed) - another programme. LOTS to deal with.

Learning is fun!

 

[Nienna]

It should help immensely if you two would come to the network with any problems that arise so that you can get the feedback from the network - that's what it's here for. If you feel embarrassed doing this, it is only internal considering. You need to decide what is more important to you, your self-importance, or becoming a better person. Networking on problems gives several different points of view, or maybe several of the same point of view which would be very telling.

I would like to participate on the forum much more than I have been doing... I sometimes feel fearful that I may appear to only want to speak about MYself an MY problems. I see many others on the different threads providing some incredible feedback and I think to myself - "Do I have anything valuable to say?" I see that there is so much knowledge and wisdom here, which I do not have at this time, and I think about the "noise" that I will probably be producing.

Perhaps it is my self importance. Perhaps it is fear of unearthing things about myself that I am not consciously aware of, and that people here will be able to see.

We have all felt that way one time (or many) or another, trust me. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just keep reading the recommended material and when you have questions, ask. If you have something to comment on with other topics, do so. If you or Thorn have questions about the Work, about either of you, ask here. There will probably be others with better advice than I can give.

One way to look at finding out things about ourselves that we don't particularly want to see is that this gives us the information that we need to start working on being a better person. Without our programs being pointed out to us, we have nothing to go on. And listening to only one person about it can give you a slanted view. So having a network really helps. It's hard to receive that information, and I know - been there, done that, got the t-shirt - but if you let down your defenses and really look at what is being shown to you, sit with it, stay in the heat until you can see just what is being shown to you you will be able to see what others are talking about instead of constantly defending your programs and trying to justify them, and, then, never really changing anything.

And, as for the network, having several eyes on us; this forum is full of people that are not like those we interact with daily. The people here are full of compassion and empathy. We want to help others who are truly trying to change themselves for the better. You will not be judged when you are being sincere in wanting to become a better person. But, yes, there will be things shown to you that you may not want to see. It doesn't happen often, but there are times that it does. So don't be afraid to post. You will find that you are just like the rest of us.

It has been proven that psychopaths are VERY good at getting people on their side and keeping them there. Even when it was shown to these people that the psychopath had been lying to them, stealing from them, etc., a lot of the people continued to stand by the psychopath. So, yes, they have to learn on their own - if they ever do.

If you have to live with, or stay in contact with your family, don't discuss your brother with them. If they bring up the conversation, just say that you have nothing to say about the matter. At least, that is how I see it. Doing anything else will only push them farther from you - which thinking about it may not be so bad for you two.

In Without a Conscience by Robert Hare he gives a very good example of the psychopath who was a local member of Parliament running for Governor. (or something, I cannot remember the exact details) And when he was found out the people made excuses for him! Haha Ponerology came in the post today and I am excited to start reading it (after Martha Stout SND)

Thorn said something similar today, that MY lesson is to keep quiet about these things and only speak when necessary! It sure is difficult when I am being accused of being in a 'cult' - Yes... thats right, my mother has done her 'research' in Laura! And I can get VERY defensive and VERY protective over laura when she attacks her work (which only make her think I am more brainwashed) - another programme. LOTS to deal with.

Learning is fun!

Okey dokie. On that front, do you live with your mother? This is a mistake that most of us make, telling others about what we are learning. First of all, they don't want to know about it so telling people what they don't want to hear is going against their free will. It also makes those who don't understand want to make us stop belonging to this forum and listening/reading things like this. Telling your mother about this was a fairly large mistake.

The best thing for you to do is casually, if it comes up in conversation, is to tell your mother, or other family members that you are no longer interested in this stuff. You've decided that it's all a bunch of nonsense and you have better things to do with your time. That means that if you are living with her, you are going to have to be very careful to not let her see you visiting the site. Don't mention anything about psychopaths to her, etc. Because all of this will be nothing but another attack against Laura. So you are going to have to act as if you have absolutely no interest in it any longer. It's best to head any difficulties, for both you and Laura, off at the start.

 

[Keyhole]

We have all felt that way one time (or many) or another, trust me. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just keep reading the recommended material and when you have questions, ask. If you have something to comment on with other topics, do so. If you or Thorn have questions about the Work, about either of you, ask here. There will probably be others with better advice than I can give.

One way to look at finding out things about ourselves that we don't particularly want to see is that this gives us the information that we need to start working on being a better person. Without our programs being pointed out to us, we have nothing to go on. And listening to only one person about it can give you a slanted view. So having a network really helps. It's hard to receive that information, and I know - been there, done that, got the t-shirt - but if you let down your defenses and really look at what is being shown to you, sit with it, stay in the heat until you can see just what is being shown to you you will be able to see what others are talking about instead of constantly defending your programs and trying to justify them, and, then, never really changing anything.

And, as for the network, having several eyes on us; this forum is full of people that are not like those we interact with daily. The people here are full of compassion and empathy. We want to help others who are truly trying to change themselves for the better. You will not be judged when you are being sincere in wanting to become a better person. But, yes, there will be things shown to you that you may not want to see. It doesn't happen often, but there are times that it does. So don't be afraid to post. You will find that you are just like the rest of us.

Thank you for the reassurance, I am becoming a bit more confident to post on here now the more I am reading.

Okey dokie. On that front, do you live with your mother? This is a mistake that most of us make, telling others about what we are learning. First of all, they don't want to know about it so telling people what they don't want to hear is going against their free will. It also makes those who don't understand want to make us stop belonging to this forum and listening/reading things like this.

Yes, me and Thorn both live here with my mother and my brother. We are looking at flats to rent at the moment though, and should hopefully be able to move out on the 25th of April (payday).

Telling your mother about this was a fairly large mistake.

The best thing for you to do is casually, if it comes up in conversation, is to tell your mother, or other family members that you are no longer interested in this stuff. You've decided that it's all a bunch of nonsense and you have better things to do with your time. That means that if you are living with her, you are going to have to be very careful to not let her see you visiting the site. Don't mention anything about psychopaths to her, etc. Because all of this will be nothing but another attack against Laura. So you are going to have to act as if you have absolutely no interest in it any longer. It's best to head any difficulties, for both you and Laura, off at the start.

It was difficult for me to be able to judge, because my mother was in fact the one who introduced me to a more open-minded way of perceiving the world and I have a lot to thank her for, she has taught me a lot. From a young age she tried to help me see think 'outside of the box' - She was an avid David Icke fan. Being familiar with the idea of hyper dimensional reptilian entities feeding off the energy we produce - gave me the impression that she was ready for Laura's books. She read the first one and stopped half way through the second... she seemed to think it was 'too american' and 'cheesy'. In this period I was wholely identified with the idea that Me, Thorn and my mother could all Work together - a dream.

At this time she was going through a lot of stress with my brother and could not even consider the possibility of him being a psychopath. But then something happened one night, she came downstairs and looked SHOCKED. She started to cry but what she said was it was not sadness, it felt like a bomb had exploded in her stomach an she had a sudden realization that she was food. That my brother and my father were draining her life force and that she had never felt this before. She was apologizing for how she had spoke to me about Laura and how she could now see the real difference between Laura and David Icke (what he misses out in regards to feeding - human interaction) This night I made the BIG mistake of speaking to her about OP's and psychopaths and their function on earth. Along with diet, and everything else, I think it may have been all too much at the time for her - which is completely my fault.

Eventually she fell back into her old ways and now currently attacks me more than ever, I find it so difficult to watch this, as we had become so close. I now try not to speak any words of it, and if there is an article I dont show the SOTT webpage but click on the link of the original article.

 

[Nienna]

It was difficult for me to be able to judge, because my mother was in fact the one who introduced me to a more open-minded way of perceiving the world and I have a lot to thank her for, she has taught me a lot. From a young age she tried to help me see think 'outside of the box' - She was an avid David Icke fan. Being familiar with the idea of hyper dimensional reptilian entities feeding off the energy we produce - gave me the impression that she was ready for Laura's books. She read the first one and stopped half way through the second... she seemed to think it was 'too american' and 'cheesy'. In this period I was wholely identified with the idea that Me, Thorn and my mother could all Work together - a dream.

At this time she was going through a lot of stress with my brother and could not even consider the possibility of him being a psychopath. But then something happened one night, she came downstairs and looked SHOCKED. She started to cry but what she said was it was not sadness, it felt like a bomb had exploded in her stomach an she had a sudden realization that she was food. That my brother and my father were draining her life force and that she had never felt this before. She was apologizing for how she had spoke to me about Laura and how she could now see the real difference between Laura and David Icke (what he misses out in regards to feeding - human interaction) This night I made the BIG mistake of speaking to her about OP's and psychopaths and their function on earth. Along with diet, and everything else, I think it may have been all too much at the time for her - which is completely my fault.

Eventually she fell back into her old ways and now currently attacks me more than ever, I find it so difficult to watch this, as we had become so close. I now try not to speak any words of it, and if there is an article I dont show the SOTT webpage but click on the link of the original article.

This is, then, understandable in why you shared what you did. (We are cheesy? ) :)

I am thinking more of the forum than SOTT, but if she does connect SOTT with the forum and Laura's works, then it is best to do what you need to do until you are able to move out.

Also, it's nice to see that you are feeling more comfortable about posting.

 

[happyliza]

Keyhole, bearing in mind that Nienna has also mentioned to keep posting on the forum, I am copying our FB chat from 24th March here for this reason. Perhaps some other points may become clearer too? :

Happyliza:

We all need to understand that everyone has their own unique baggage from childhood and that we respond - deal with it in the best way we know how, to be able to cope with life and the trauma.

Thorn, and I am sure you too, have your issues, this is what love helps sort out. Yes big shock when we find out that people are not PERFECT, but who is?, I certainly am not, That is why we try to learn to be who we are meant to be. Most are under the level of NORMAL -just got that from 12 hours of intensive study today!

How many of us can HONESTLY say we are truthful to ourselves? WE ALL LIE. This is the fundamental thing we have to overcome - as well as negative emotions. Don't tell me you don't lie to yourself! I do, and am eternally crass about it. But at least Thorn recoginzes it - or tries to, to her detriment with your emotions about it. Do YOU? None of us are perfect. Personally, I think that Thorn is sacrificing herself over honesty, because she knows that what you hear will not be appealing to you. BUT her commitment to growth supersedes other people's 'opinions'. This is commendable. She is so not wanting to live a lie within a lie if you know what I mean.
Not many, very few are this brave to jeopardize what they have, the status quo, for growth and I feel this is GENUINE.

Keyhole: (Re his mum)
Awful to see this all, she accused me of being brainwashed by the Cs whenever we speak about psychopathy, its fear i think. SOOOO much attack, so much more than i expected. she actually attacks me for speaking to you about my personal issues and wants me to speak to her about them, but whenever i do i get put down and attacked and i lose control and get angry. She is angry at me for posting issues regarding brother on forum as well.

Happyliza:
Everything you have explained is PURE PSYCOPATHY and he has had ample time while you were away to ponorize your mum and dad into his agenda and alienate you. Usual tricks.
Nothing you can do other than try to educate them and give them certain books. Horse to water etc. BUT that is all you can do. It is their illusion NOT YOURS.
Does your mum and brother have access to the forum, if not, and I hope not, I think we should still keep this transparent as I said - to help others and you need more feedback than just me! Do you mind?
Not all psychopaths have to tick al the boxes to be one - but he is text-book case already. Be careful that you are not looking for that one box that he does'nt tick to get him off the hook. Already the behaviour speaks volumes, and all the more experienced people on the forum have given you sound advice.
Anyway HOW do you know he has not decimated animals in his childhood - just because he 'said' he didn't. Were you with him all of the time? And what kind of saving grace is that?

Re your Jaw problem do mention on forum as I am not a medical practitioner.

All is lessons. Take the helicopter approach and be grateful for the petty tyrant in the meantime.

Two things are important in a relationship - trust and respect. If you don't have those you got nothing! So this is you guys personal test - or see it as that. This is the REAL world. Don't live in a bubble. You will have far more tests than this and so see it as a pre-curser. Psychopaths are going to be all over the place soon. We all have the insights we need, to have to learn, the weaknesses we have in us. You signed up to learn - remember. You got to take the lessons - and see them as such. Not easy.

At least you know I do my best to be impartial in these situaiions and say it as it is. Like it or not. I would not be a friend if I allowed you to continue with buffers and self calming, knowing your commitments to higher awareness and your ultimate goals.


Comment: As I too am learning, I would be grateful if anybody else could make further comments to the information/help that I gave to Thorn and Keyhole when they were going through such a stressful time. Thanks

 

[Nienna]

Comment: As I too am learning, I would be grateful if anybody else could make further comments to the information/help that I gave to Thorn and Keyhole when they were going through such a stressful time. Thanks

Happyliza, I'd like to ask you a question, but if you think it is too personal, you don't need to answer.

What is your relationship with keyhole and Thorn?

 

[Alana]

Comment: As I too am learning, I would be grateful if anybody else could make further comments to the information/help that I gave to Thorn and Keyhole when they were going through such a stressful time. Thanks

Happyliza, I'd like to ask you a question, but if you think it is too personal, you don't need to answer.

What is your relationship with keyhole and Thorn?

I too am wondering how everyone is related, and how the conversation on FB started. Reading the latest posts sounds to me that Keyhole, Thorn and happyliza know each other in real life, but I don't know, it's just an assumption based on what was shared.

 

[happyliza]

Hi Nienna I have no problem explaining. Is there a particular reason why you are asking? The timeline/info is below:

Keyhole and Thorn are friends I met well over a year ago, when they were on holiday in our village and staying in their mum's house here. Also I am a friend of their mum's sister who also has a place in the village. I lent them a pile of my books as well as have many long discussions prior to their visit to India, where I also arranged for them to stay with a very close friend of mine.

All the while they were travelling we kept in touch, and I was encouraging and helping when asked - re diet, the Work, their relationship etc. I also reiterated about the importance of a school and joining the Forum, and should they agree with the principles, then also The FOTCM. I am really happy that they are proactive about posting on Forum now and are so eager to learn everything. I sincerely care and wish them well with the Work.

Plus we all wish to be self - sufficient out here as soon as we can! We have chatted about the intention of my planned project here, and visited the land together with some other folks I also kept in touch with. Keyhole and Thorn planned on relocating here on their return from India as soon as they had saved enough funds. This is their own decision. Though I am looking forward to them coming and to help them settle, find work and get visas etc etc.

I have regular meet-ups with Keyhole's aunt and in-depth conversations - rare to find as you know, though mainly at a 'David Icke/Press TV level. Also lent a couple of Laura's books but requested them back after 9 months as by then only a couple of chapters had been read as (difficult to get into). I am planning on calling in again next week.

Plus Keyhole's mum was out last year and treated me to a meal at a local restaurant so we could chat on similar lines. I was also interested in hearing about her PTSD work with war veterans. We got on very well, though under the recent circumstances I will need to be extremely externally considerate due to the fact that Keyhole mentioned that she is upset about communication with me/the Forum rather than he confiding to her - plus denigrating comments also mentioned.

Sad really but it is important to remain vigilant and objective too for everyone concerned.

 

[Nienna]

Hi Nienna I have no problem explaining. Is there a particular reason why you are asking?

Yes, as Alana has said"

I too am wondering how everyone is related, and how the conversation on FB started. Reading the latest posts sounds to me that Keyhole, Thorn and happyliza know each other in real life, but I don't know, it's just an assumption based on what was shared.

Not knowing the circumstances can lead to confusion and assumptions being made. It's always a good thing to have all of the information.

The timeline/info is below:

Thank you for sharing.

 

[happyliza]

Ok I understand now. I didn't notice Alana's comments when I posted. Yes, we know each other in 'real life'.

Apologies for not making that clear.