Questions regarding food chains and liberation of plants and animals

[Inti]

I am wondering if this subject has been discussed before and would be interested to hear peoples' views on it. I have looked on the site already to see if anything similar has come up, but have not found it so please point me in the right direction if I have missed something.
When I was 14 someone told me about the conditions animals were kept in before being killed. The next day I turned vegetarian and have been vegetarian ever since. I could cope with the concept of killing to eat but not the cruelty and imprisonment - my thoughts then, as they are now, were and are that if you are going to eat meat you hunt and kill it yourself. Aside from the issue of cruelty and imprisonment, the disconnection from what you are actually doing and ingesting seemed disturbing to me. For example, I once saw a documentary on the San people who are hunter-gatherers. The documentary filmed them hunting and I saw them in silence imitating the animals and tracking them for quite some time before killing them in what at least seemed to be a more respectful manner. I also lived in wilderness for quite a long time and was amidst hunter-gatherers, although I only ever gathered! To me, this contrasts quite sharply with the food production and consumption systems we see today.
I have a desire for self-determination of all beings. I want to extract myself from enslavement of others. And this extends to plants, fungi, bacteria... I have quite a strong gut reaction to domestication of plants and animals and industrial agriculture. I have so many questions in my head regarding this subject and would really welcome ideas and comments on this subject. From my own research in this area, I have come to the thinking that many hunter-gatherer societies are/were freer (in the physical sense at least) and often healthier. I believe agriculture played a large role in the enslavement of humans and depletion of human health. Since it is all tied in to enslavement: the need for domestication/enslavement of plants to feed the enslaved/domesticated animals to feed the enslaved/domesticated humans, where does it all end? And what would its opposite (liberation) mean on a global and cosmic level?
I am imagining that others here may have mentioned/thought/written about this already and maybe the Cs comment on this? I have not read the Wave yet, so if it's there please guide me to the relevant part.

 

[PepperFritz]

Since it is all tied in to enslavement: the need for domestication/enslavement of plants to feed the enslaved/domesticated animals to feed the enslaved/domesticated humans, where does it all end?

As the C's indicate in the excerpts below, it's pretty well an inescapable condition of third-density life. It "ends" when we reach 4th density. A extensive discussion of these issues can be found in the Vegetarianism thread.

I have not read the Wave yet, so if it's there please guide me to the relevant part.

The Wave series should not be read in bits in pieces, as the ideas and concepts in it are developed incrementally. In other words, it should be read from beginning to end. It should also be read as soon as possible if you wish to fully participate in and understand forum discussions. It can be read online HERE.

Q: (L) Is a vegetarian style of eating good for one?
A: Not usually.
Q: (L) What did human beings eat before the Fall?
A: Vegetarian.
Q: (L) So, until we go through the transition we are not really
designed to be vegetarian?
A: Correct.

Q: (L) Does it hurt a plant when we eat it?
A: Does it hurt you when a "Lizzie" eats you?
Q: (T) Yes, you see, on 4th density... we are on 3rd density
and we eat 1st and 2nd density, the 4th density eats us. (D) If
we hurt plants by eating them like the Lizzies hurt us when
they eat us, how are we to survive without eating?
A: When you no longer crave physicality, you no longer need
to "eat."
Q: (L) So part of the "fall" into the physical existence and part
of the Edenic story of the whole business, "you shall eat by
the sweat of your brow," has to do with being physical and
needing to eat?
A: Lucifer, "The fallen Angel." This is you.
Q: (L) So, "falling" means going into physical existence
wherein you must feed on other life, other beings, is that it?
A: Yes.

 

[Inti]

Thankyou for your reply and advice, PepperFritz. I am glad you told me the Wave is supposed to be read from beginning to end because that was a question I wanted to ask about. I also have the strong feeling that I need to get on and read the Wave - would it be a good idea to refrain from using the forum until I have finished it?
I had actually skimmed through the vegetarianism thread and read some parts of it in full and found many interesting ideas there but could not find any in-depth discussion of how to eat. My question is not so much what to eat but how, because, as I mentioned before, I want to extract myself from enslavement of others. I did not find discussion of this in the Cs words on diet either. Is enslavement an inescapable condition of third-density life? Why is liberation not possible? It's not that I see it as likely in the current circumstances, but I do see it as a possibility. Or at least, I do see there being a degree of liberation possible in this density.

 

[webglider]

My question is not so much what to eat but how, because, as I mentioned before, I want to extract myself from enslavement of others. I did not find discussion of this in the Cs words on diet either. Is enslavement an inescapable condition of third-density life? Why is liberation not possible? It's not that I see it as likely in the current circumstances, but I do see it as a possibility. Or at least, I do see there being a degree of liberation possible in this density.

As long as you have a body, you will have to eat to sustain it. Within that context, there are different choices that are possible to make.

Is there a food coop near you? If not, do you have the time, energy and commitment to starting one?

Food coops vary, but offer an alternative to mass marketed food sold in a commercial setting.

The one I belong to has a very active membership. Everyone works to keep prices down. There are also many different committees that one can choose to serve on. For example, there is an environmental committee, a soup kitchen committee, an entertainment committee, a newspaper staff, talent show coordinators etc. Then, of course, there is stocking the shelves, working the cash register, checking out groceries, cleaning, inventory, childcare, just to name some of the work slots members from which members can choose.

Members have input as to which foods are offered for sale. All the meat is grass fed; all the poultry is free range. Many members are vegetarian, and there is a wide array of organic fruits and vegetables, herbs, spices, teas, coffees for sale. The coop tries to patronize local farms. For years there was controversy about whether or not to allow meat to be sold. Since so many members wanted meat, the meat that is sold is raised as humanely as possible.

The coop began decades ago,and was quite small and inconvenient when it first opened. Now it has a huge membership, and is a major presence in the community.

If you are really concerned about the quality and humane treatment of the food that you eat, perhaps you can create a different model like a food coop.

I don't know how feasible hunting and gathering would be in the world we live in now, but I have always believed that any skills that can be learned are valuable, and as one never knows what life will bring, the more one knows, the better off one is, or so it seems to me.

I really don't quite understand what you mean by "liberation" or "escape from 3rd density life". I mean, there's always death, but that's not really not a very attractive option for most people.

We're here for a reason, and our job her is to wake up. I see that as including the choices we make in selecting the foods that we eat among many other things.

Hope this helps.

 

[anart]

Thankyou for your reply and advice, PepperFritz. I am glad you told me the Wave is supposed to be read from beginning to end because that was a question I wanted to ask about. I also have the strong feeling that I need to get on and read the Wave - would it be a good idea to refrain from using the forum until I have finished it?

I don't know that refraining from posting is necessary, but I do think it's a good idea to begin reading the Wave. You might find it rather difficult to 'put down' once you start. Also, it really does assist in understanding the general conversation on the forum.

Is enslavement an inescapable condition of third-density life?

One of the reasons we stress research and knowledge so much is that as one begins to develop an objective understanding of this reality we share, the answers to questions like this become obvious. It might be interesting for you to answer this question yourself now - and then, after doing more research and reading, revisit the question to answer it again.

Why is liberation not possible?

Is it not possible?

It's not that I see it as likely in the current circumstances, but I do see it as a possibility. Or at least, I do see there being a degree of liberation possible in this density.

The objective fact of the matter ( to my current understanding ) is that this density is defined by limitation. When something is defined by limitation, liberation becomes rather unlikely, though there is that 'cubic centimeter of luck'. The 2nd density, to my understanding, is defined by even more limitation than the 3rd - thus 'liberation' on the 2nd density is likely quite 'out of reach'. I cannot speak for the 4th Density, though I do accept the working hypothesis that it is less limiting, thus liberation might be more likely.

All there is is lessons. The Universe is one big school. And on the topic of that 'cubic centimeter of luck' - this essay might come in handy...

http://ontruth.blogspot.com/2007/11/last-inch-and-cubic-centimeter-of-luck.html

(it is referenced here - http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=7738.msg55237#msg55237 )

 

[PepperFritz]

I am glad you told me the Wave is supposed to be read from beginning to end because that was a question I wanted to ask about. I also have the strong feeling that I need to get on and read the Wave - would it be a good idea to refrain from using the forum until I have finished it?

Not necessarily. While reading the book, it's a good idea to take notes on the questions that come to mind and then only post unanswered questions once you've finished the whole thing -- as questions that arise early on in the book are usually answered and/or clarified with the information that is presented later.

I had actually skimmed through the vegetarianism thread and read some parts of it in full and found many interesting ideas there but could not find any in-depth discussion of how to eat. My question is not so much what to eat but how, because, as I mentioned before, I want to extract myself from enslavement of others. I did not find discussion of this in the Cs words on diet either.

I think the following excerpt from the transcripts pretty well sums up how important the C's consider the issue:

Q: (L) Is vegetarianism then the way we should eat?
A: That is concentrating on the physical. The body is not
important.
Q: (L) Does this mean that to worry about the body in any
way is wrong?
A: Close. Don't concentrate on life in the body. Concentrate
on the spirit.

Is enslavement an inescapable condition of third-density life?

In the food department, it would seem so. The C's place more emphasis on the importance of escaping enslavement of the mind and spirit.

 

[Inti]

Thankyou all for your advice and comments. I really appreciate them because this is a matter I feel strongly about. First to webglider: yes, there are many food coops where I live and allotments and local and organic food. And, given my current options, I think those are the best available to me now as I don't live in area of wilderness presently that can sustain me physically. I think you misunderstood me when you said I wanted to escape from 3rd density life, I never said those words. I want to learn the lessons I need to learn here and then when I am ready to move on, I want to move on. When I speak of liberation I do believe there are degrees of it and I feel a strong desire for as much liberation as possible, not just for myself but for all other beings. Anart, I found your comments very useful and I will read the cubic centimeter of luck to try and understand further. PepperFritz, thankyou for taking the time to comment but I don't find the Cs comments here very useful to my understanding this issue. I do see the issue of physical health and what you eat as important but that is not the question I am addressing here. I am not discussing my body and what is best for my body. I am discussing the fact that I don't want to be enslaved and do not want the enslavement of others. I think the issue I am concerned with is about allowing others, from whatever density, self-determination or free will. I don't think that is, to quote the Cs words, "concentrating on the physical". Human beings have lived and some still do live, with increasing scarcity, in a situation where they do not force plants or animals to produce for them. I cannot currently see a way to escape killing or the need to eat, but I can see ways of decreasing the degree of enslavement of others.

 

[Inti]

I'm still struggling with this issue. Thankyou very much Anart for pointing me towards the "cubic centimeter of luck" essay. I thought it was well-written and covered some key issues. I am not sure if I understood it very well though and have several questions in my mind.
Does the cubic centimeter of luck (and its opposite) exist at all densities?
Does integrity mean being true to the truth or aligning yourself to the good you see in any given moment/situation?
What is the relationship between responsibility and awareness? I feel that as awareness grows, so too does responsibility for self, but I don't know. Is there also a relationship between growth in awareness and responsibility to others? And if there is, what does it mean for 3D beings and their relationships with other 3D beings and 2D and 1D beings?

I would appreciate help and guidance here or pointers to research I can do on my own because I'm struggling to get out of this confusion!

 

[Inti]

Hmm...and I have just come to this part of the Wave and these Cassiopaean words:

3rd density STS orientation includes the thought of "dominion" over 2nd density, and this is merely a continuation of the energy buildups of the approach of The Wave... Some of the lessons are interesting indeed. When you assume that capture and imprisonment of those of lesser capacity than you is for "their good," why should not you expect those of greater capacity than you to assume the same regarding you?!? We would like you to ponder this further. We suspect there is much to be gained from insights lurking there.

 

[PepperFritz]

Hmm...and I have just come to this part of the Wave and these Cassiopaean words:

3rd density STS orientation includes the thought of "dominion" over 2nd density, and this is merely a continuation of the energy buildups of the approach of The Wave... Some of the lessons are interesting indeed. When you assume that capture and imprisonment of those of lesser capacity than you is for "their good," why should not you expect those of greater capacity than you to assume the same regarding you?!? We would like you to ponder this further. We suspect there is much to be gained from insights lurking there.

Yes, but note they do not suggest that we are capable of changing our relationship with 2nd density. Bottom line: As third-density STS beings, we must eat in order to continue physical existence, and our only option for food/nourishment is eating second-density beings.

I think your desire to believe that it is possible, or has been possible at some point in the past, for third-density STS humans to eat via a method "where they do not force plants or animals to produce for them" and "allow others, from whatever density, self-determination or free will", is at root a desire to escape the nature of your third-density existence -- and thus, escape the lessons of third-density. The only way one could both eat a second-density being AND "allow them self-determination and free will" would be to somehow obtain its permission to be eaten. And, obviously, we are not capable of communicating with second-density beings on that level in order to determine that, nor they with us. Also, if one were to imagine a fourth-density STS being asking our permission to be eaten -- would we be likely to agree, of our own "free will"?

Think about it: By expecting that there is a way for you to both eat a second-density being (so that you may stay alive) and also allow it "free will" (so that you don't feel "guilty"), are you not assuming that there are second-density beings whose "will" it would be to be eaten by you? What would make you think that ANY being would "willingly" be eaten -- except your need to believe that there is some method of obtaining food that does NOT involve "enslavement"?

The C's do not tell us to stop eating second-density beings, or to try and obtain their permission to be eaten, only to consider and draw parallels with our third-density STS relationship with such beings and fourth-density STS beings' relationship with us -- to understand and truly SEE what it means to be STS beings, to grasp the horrifying reality of it. Not to avert our faces from it by convincing ourselves that we are capable of changing that relationship, which would be delusion; but to SEE the ugliness of it and thereby develop a true desire and intent to escape the conditions of our third-density STS existence when the opportunity for transition to fourth-density STO existence arrives.

Remember: The C's have told us again and again that it is not possible for us to become STO in nature while in third-density; that we are by nature STS third-density beings, and that the most we can hope for is to become "STO candidates". And perhaps part of the process of becoming an "STO candidate" is to eventually become so thoroughly and completely disgusted and disillusioned with STS third-density existence that we are "ready" when the Wave arrives.

All that having been said, there are many ways in which we can reduce the level of "enslavement" involved in how we obtain our food nourishment. But it can only be a "reduction", not an "elimination".

 

[Inti]

Thankyou very much for the reply, PepperFritz, I think you make some very good points. I am not sure whether it is due to guilty feelings that I do not wish to enslave others, or whether it is because I see certain ways of being as better and want my actions to be in line with those. Does that amount to the same thing, I don't know?
I don't think I ever thought that I could escape the reality of killing nor, to my awareness, did I think that it would be possible to communicate with another being to determine whether they would like to be killed. If they share something in common with me, I suspect they would not like to be killed! Killing is certainly violating another's free will or self-determination and no, I can't escape it in 3D. But, as you say at the end:

All that having been said, there are many ways in which we can reduce the level of "enslavement" involved in how we obtain our food nourishment. But it can only be a "reduction", not an "elimination".

This echoes what I said before:

I cannot currently see a way to escape killing or the need to eat, but I can see ways of decreasing the degree of enslavement of others.

If I can see those ways of decreasing enslavement and want to decrease enslavement, is it not going against the self if I do not bring my actions in line with that?

 

[foofighter]

If I can see those ways of decreasing enslavement and want to decrease enslavement, is it not going against the self if I do not bring my actions in line with that?

What if "decreasing enslavement" of 2D creatures, by not eating them, causes your body to function less well, thus making it more difficult for YOU to decrease YOUR enslavement, and in a network situation with others having this same goal making it more difficult to decrease THEIR enslavement, how do you value that? By choosing one action (helping the 2D creatures) you may at the same time causing another effect (worse for yourself and other 3D humans) which is less desirable. What is "right" and "wrong", "better" or "worse"? Not so straightforward this issue, eh?

 

[Inti]

Thankyou Foofighter for your questions! Yes, it is definitely not straightforward! And your questions seem valid to me and I will definitely give them further thought. I would like to point out that although I may have focused in the past on greater liberation for 2D beings, I think my focus is now more on liberation of all beings not just those of 2D. As far as I can see, eating is a necessary part of my nourishment at 3D and I can presently see no way to escape that. But the ever-increasing domestication and coercion of living beings to human desires strikes me as horrific. I see that I have choices I can make that will lessen my infringement on the free will or self-determination of others. As I can see that, I feel a need to act that...doing otherwise strikes me as somewhat sick.
In an earlier post I also asked about the relationship between awareness and responsibility, because, and I might be misguided here, but I feel that plays a role. Anart makes the point that 2D and 1D are defined by even more limitation. So I'm thinking that maybe 1D has even more limitation than 2D and if there is a greater possibility for self-liberation at 2D, is there a responsibility for 3Ders to allow this chance? I don't know the answers, they are just questions I have.

 

[anart]

As far as I can see, eating is a necessary part of my nourishment at 3D and I can presently see no way to escape that. But the ever-increasing domestication and coercion of living beings to human desires strikes me as horrific. I see that I have choices I can make that will lessen my infringement on the free will or self-determination of others. As I can see that, I feel a need to act that...doing otherwise strikes me as somewhat sick.

I think this makes sense - if you can, in your own life, take steps to lesson the infringement, then it would be natural to do so. I certainly take steps in my own life along these lines, however, there is only a certain amount of 'space within which to move' in this area due to being a 3D STS entity (which is one of the reasons Working to 'graduate' is so personally important).

In an earlier post I also asked about the relationship between awareness and responsibility, because, and I might be misguided here, but I feel that plays a role.

I think finishing the Wave and Adventure series will take a you a long way toward an understanding in that area. Ultimately, in order to be responsible - 'response able' - one must be awake and able to Do, which means that one must Be. That likely sounds like a bunch of words thrown together, but the point is that as long as one is entrapped by ones mechanical (default) nature, one cannot be response-able - one can only react to external stimulus.

Anart makes the point that 2D and 1D are defined by even more limitation. So I'm thinking that maybe 1D has even more limitation than 2D and if there is a greater possibility for self-liberation at 2D, is there a responsibility for 3Ders to allow this chance? I don't know the answers, they are just questions I have.

Here you appear to be wandering out into left field a bit - which is wholly understandable since you're not yet certain what the parameters of the field are (which goes back to finishing the Wave/Adventure series and other reading). Self-liberation at 2D is a rather nebulous concept (to my current understanding) since 2D creatures have a 'group soul', so to speak - there is no individuation in the way we speak of it in potential with 3D 'creatures'.

I realize that's not very clear, but my time is limited this morning - suffice it to say that these concepts are covered on these pages, cassiopaea.org and in the suggested reading as well. My advice would be to keep reading and continue asking questions - and apologies for the brevity; I'm on my way out the door.

 

[foofighter]

But the ever-increasing domestication and coercion of living beings to human desires strikes me as horrific. I see that I have choices I can make that will lessen my infringement on the free will or self-determination of others.

Ok, well with regard to the above, here's a practical question: we have two turtles in an aquarium. Every two weeks we buy about 50 live fish and put them in the aquarium, so that the turtles get to exercise their natural hunting instincts. The alternative would be to get dried food, but this too would incude fish, just not ones that "I" killed. In this case I am promoting the natural lifestyle of the turtles (although them being in the aquarium in the first place is anything but natural), in favor of the 50 fish that gets killed every two weeks. I am "coercing living beings to human desires", meaning, I am intentionally killing these fish (in effect) so that the turtles can be happy. Is this horrific? Or would it be better to get the dried food? It would mean the same "amount" of fish gets killed, but the turtles would be more lazy and miserable. What's worse? What's more important? The two turtles or the fifty fish every two weeks? How do you think about these things in terms of "morality" anyway?