Psychopaths in the family

[flashgordonv]

As a part of my ongoing endeavours to do the work and to be able to see, I have been diligently reading many of the books that lots of other readers on this site are or have ploughed their way through. Part of that has been reading up on psychopathy and over time I have been coming to conclusions about some members of my family who have been a constant and consistent source of pain, but I have been very wary about jumping to conclusions.

Well, now that has all changed. I have just been through a series of events with my eldest daughter and my ex-wife over the last couple of days that has been very defining for me in a number of ways. First, even though I have read heaps of material on psychopathy, thought about it a lot, made a solid effort to process it and make it mine, when it came to my daughter and her recent behaviour, I was completely taken in again, and if it had not been for my wife pointing out to me what was going on, I would have missed it and been back in the manipulation cycle. I suppose I should not be too surprised for it seems that it is easy to read material but altogether a different thing to actually apply it, particularly when the behaviour is being seen in somebody close (who has a developed and practiced ability over many years to make me feel guilty and to use that for her gain.)

Nonetheless, over the last two days, with my wife's help, I was able to see a very clear pattern in my daughters behaviour. Briefly it all revolved around being able to visit my new grandson, and my daughters realisation that her son gave her a new power she could wield to control people (like her father). Permission was granted for my wife and I to visit, withdrawn at the last moment for my wife (we had travelled to NZ to see them), and the visitn conditions modified - I was not allowed to visit the house but had to meet at a nearby shopping centre. When I declined to accept these conditions and the visit, I was subjected to a torrent of emotional abuse and misrepresentations about what I had been told by her about what she was prepared to accept for the visit. I called her bluff on this, i quoted her back to herself, I showed her the lies, and suddenly she was all sweetness and light, it was just a silly misunderstanding and of course we could both visit, right now. (I know I am rambling here but I am trying to give a sense of what was happening.)

My relationship with my eldest daughter has been tense for the last 10 years and the only time she has made contact have been when she wants money. Between us my wife and I worked out that the likely reason she decided to ban my wife and only see me was that she wanted to ask for money (in a tearful and emotional manner) and had decided she could best achieve this with me there alone as her history of manipulating me was good. We suspect when I called her bluff she could see the money source disappearing and decided on a quick reversal of strategy. (I really have not described this well, it was very emotional, quite hurtful and I am not sure I have got the gist of the event across but I am trying without being too verbose)

So, with assistance from my wife, I do believe I have finally seen strong psychopathic characteristics and behaviours that I have not wanted to see in my daughter. And in hindsight, a lot of behaviour over the last 10 years makes sense when seen in this light.

The follow up to this was an email from my ex-wife - we were divorced 14 years ago, but she has never stopped attacking me whenever possible (which is another reason I live in a different country). Number one daughter had copied her on the vitriolic and abusive email she sent me. The email I got from her, was quite sufficient for me to have to acknowledge that she is and has been psychopathic. Understanding that, finally, at last, (because I can be very thick and short soghted when it comes to the people around me), has enabled me to see that the way I have been dealing with her in the past has failed precicely because I have ascribed to her human characteristics of compassion, empathy and general decency and she patently does not possess them.

I am amazed at how acknowledging that these family members are psychopathic has provided a huge release for me, enabled me to look at them differently and most importantly to be able to respond to them differently. My wife is of the strong opinion that living with my ex-wife for 14 years severely damaged me and I think she is right. The positive for me in all this is 1. I can "see" at last what has been going on and make sense out of it and 2. knowing this will dramatically affect the strategies we employ to maintain our sanity when we cannot avoid contact.

I am amazed at how blind you can be when you do not what to see what is in front of your because the person involved you care about.

 

[Beau]

It doesn't sound as though your family is psychopathic. Manipulative, yes. You definitely benefited from reading the literature talked about on this forum as well. But I think they are just wounded. They could heal, if they were made aware of the same literature you have read, such as Trapped in the Mirror or The Narcissistic Family. Now that you are aware of the manipulations, you can possibly help them, if they are open to them.

 

[flashgordonv]

Thanks Beau. Appreciate the feedback. I agree my daughter might just be extremley manipulative, absolutely not convinced about the ex though - 14 years of history mitigates against that. I will try to see if my daughter will read any of the material, where there is life there is hope.

 

[aristar]

Hello to all
I have a question for which I still did not find an answer that would bring understanding. I know that we are built from electro-magnetism. We attract or repulse. We also have different bodies like mental, emotional and the physical one. The Soul is an atom which attract those three permanent atoms when she is to be incarnated. I might be wrong but till now, this is the way I thought. If the quality of vibrations of the persons who try to bring a child into this world are very hight, how could a person like a psychopath (no soul) or a bad person could come into this family. Logicly, attraction is between similarity. But how could a good person attract such a bad person. I really would like to know for I cannot sincerely find an answer to that.
Patricia

 

[Amelopsis]

Logicly, attraction is between similarity. But how could a good person attract such a bad person. I really would like to know for I cannot sincerely find an answer to that.
Patricia

Logically it is opposites which attract and like which begets like.
I don't think this answers your question, but it was my initial thought.

Also, our incarnations are not dependant upon the parents who are procreating, but rather on cumulative lessons learned or yet to be learned and the individual's readiness for same.
(I'm not stating that very clearly but hopefully getting the idea across)

The psychopathic child born into a non-psychopathic home may have lessons to learn from them, and/or vice versa?

There are so many variables, but: 'All there is, is Lessons'.

 

[Peto]

If the quality of vibrations of the persons who try to bring a child into this world are very hight, how could a person like a psychopath (no soul) or a bad person could come into this family. Logicly, attraction is between similarity. But how could a good person attract such a bad person. I really would like to know for I cannot sincerely find an answer to that.

My understanding is that psychopathy is a genetic disease, pure and simple. Normal people may also carry its genes, they are just not activated. So in the case of normal parents and psychopathic child, the inactive psychopathic genes in the parents are combined in such a way that enables their activation. We don't need any "mystified explanations" involving vibrations and soul attraction for that.

 

[Bryan]

My understanding is that psychopathy is a genetic disease, pure and simple. Normal people may also carry its genes, they are just not activated. So in the case of normal parents and psychopathic child, the inactive psychopathic genes in the parents are combined in such a way that enables their activation. We don't need any "mystified explanations" involving vibrations and soul attraction for that.

Would two psychopathic parents have a normal child, via recessive genes for normality, or does psychopathy breed true?

 

[Peto]

Yes, it is possible for two psychopathic parents to have a normal child. In that case, the psychopathic genes in the child are dormant. Unfortunately, even if the child is genetically normal, s/he would be severely abused (either psychologically or physically or both) and has a lot of psychological problems at adulthood, having grown up with psychopathic parents.

To read more about psychopathy and its genetic cause, any good book on the subject will do. I would recommend "Without Conscience". About children growing up in dysfunctional families, the book to read is "The narcissistic family".

EDIT: About Joeshmoe's comment below, Robert Hare in "Without Conscience" wrote that environmental factors do play a role, but only in shaping how the psychopathic traits will express themselves in adulthood. That is, if a psychopath grows up in a violent environment, he will likely become a serial killer or something of the sort. On the other hand, a well educated psychopath would become a stock scamster, corporate leader or politician, etc.

 

[joeshmoe]

My understanding is that psychopathy is a genetic disease, pure and simple. Normal people may also carry its genes, they are just not activated. So in the case of normal parents and psychopathic child, the inactive psychopathic genes in the parents are combined in such a way that enables their activation. We don't need any "mystified explanations" involving vibrations and soul attraction for that.

Would two psychopathic parents have a normal child, via recessive genes for normality, or does psychopathy breed true?

Do we know if it is all genetic, or do some aspect(s) of environment play at least partial roles.
Also, it could involve several genetic variables (e.g. genes) working in concert. It could
be quite complex.

 

[Amelopsis]

The psychopathic child born into a non-psychopathic home may have lessons to learn from them, and/or vice versa?

I don't see how a psychopath could have lessons to learn, since he's unable to learn from his mistakes, like other non-psychopathic OP's. Osit.

Your comment made me rethink my own (thank you for the exercise) and I was thinking of a child with psychopathic tendencies, rather than a full on psychopath when stating the above.

I must also add that I have much reading yet to do, including Lobaczewski. It is possible though for a person to have these tendencies without being incapable of developing a functioning conscience, is it not?

It still seems logical to me that some combination of the genetics and the psychological would be the causality, rather than one or the other in isolation.

 

[Laura]

Hello to all
I have a question for which I still did not find an answer that would bring understanding. I know that we are built from electro-magnetism.

Are we?

I'm not disagreeing here, I'm just trying to get you to look at some basic things.

It could be said that everything PHYSICAL is "built from electro-magnetism" - but that says nothing about things that are completely non-physical.

We attract or repulse.

Do we? And is it that simple? Perhaps some part of us attracts one thing and repulses another, and another part of us attracts the thing that the first part repulses. I don't think it is as simple as you might like to think.

We also have different bodies like mental, emotional and the physical one.

Do we? Again, I'm not disagreeing here, I'm just asking you to look at your assumptions. What have the Cs said about this?

“Each soul has its own patterning, which is held in place by the three bodies of existence ‘thought center, spirit center and physical center,’ there are specific methodologies for adjusting these, and traveling into or out of other planes of existence. When one does not properly utilize these, one tears the fabric of their trilateral continuum when they seek to travel. This can be very problematic, and may lead to the soul being unable to reconnect with the body, thus causing the physical center to perish!!!" [Cassiopaeans, 10-05-96]

The Cassiopaeans have also talked about the “four worlds."

“And remember, your consciousness operates on four levels, not just one! [They are] Physical body, genetic body, spirit-etheric body, and consciousness. [These are] the four composites of the human manifestation in 3rd and 4th densities." [Cassiopaeans, 10-10-98]

Note that in the second quote, consciousness can be the equivalent of "soul" from the first quote where it talks about what the soul "has," i.e. it's own patterning held in place by three bodies of existence. So, there are 3 bodies, and 4 soul/consciousness levels.

The Soul is an atom which attract those three permanent atoms when she is to be incarnated.

Again, you are making the soul more or less physical...

I might be wrong but till now, this is the way I thought. If the quality of vibrations of the persons who try to bring a child into this world are very hight, how could a person like a psychopath (no soul) or a bad person could come into this family. Logicly, attraction is between similarity. But how could a good person attract such a bad person. I really would like to know for I cannot sincerely find an answer to that.
Patricia

I think that you only have to look around you at the dynamics of the world, to be well and widely read on subjects relating to humanity, to immediately see that what you are saying cannot be correct. Just a cursory overview of history, of the biographies of famous people of all sorts will indicate clearly that extraordinary souls can be incarnated in families of psychopaths and vice versa. This is due to the phenomenon of genetic recombination.

I think that what you are trying to get at is: isn't the soul "married" to the genetics? And in this sense, you are correct. But again, there is the problem of genetic recombination.

Q: (L) But isn't the nature of a person determined by their
soul and not the physical body?

A: Partially, remember, aural profile and karmic reference
merges with physical structure.

Q: (L) So you are saying that particular genetic conditions
are a physical reflection of a spiritual orientation?
That the soul must match itself to the genetics, even if
only in potential?

A: Yes, precisely.

Q: (L) So a person's potential for spiritual advancement or
unfoldment is, to a great extent, dependent upon their
genes?

A: Natural process marries with systematic construct when
present.

Q: (L) Well, if that is the case, and the aliens are
abducting people and altering their genes, can they not
alter the genes so that higher level souls simply cannot
come in?

A: Not incarnative process, natural biological processes.
Incarnative involves strictly ethereal at 5th density and
lower, and thus is enveloped in triple cycle "veil" of
transfer which is impregnable ay any means. However, any
and all 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th processes can be
manipulated at will and to any degree if technology is
sufficient.

So, we have a dependence upon genetics - as you suspect - but then there is that issue of genetic recombination. That's the trick... Genetic recombination makes it possible for offspring to have completely different combinations of genes from their parents. It's a fascinating subject.

Q: (A) What does having a soul or not having a soul have to do with bloodline?
A: Genetics marry with soul if present.

Regarding genetic recombination:

Q: ... (L) Okay, this anthropologist, Michael Harner, was doing some field work, and it says here that Harner went to the Peruvian Amazon to study the culture of the Conibo Indians. After a year or so he had made little headway in understanding their religious system, when the Conibo told him 'if he really wanted to learn, he had to drink ahayahuasca. Harner accepted, not without fear because the people had warned him that the experience was terrifying. The following evening, under the strict supervision of his indigenous friends, he drank the equivalent of a third of a bottle. After several minutes he found himself flying into a world of true hallucinations. After arriving in a celestial cavern where a supernatural carnival of demons was in full swing, he saw two strange boats floating through the air that combined to form a huge dragon headed prow not unlike that of a Viking ship. On the deck he could make out large numbers of people with the heads of bluejays and the bodies of humans, not unlike the bird-headed gods of ancient Egyptian tomb paintings.

After multiple episodes, which would be too long to describe here, Harner became convinced that he was dying. He tried calling out to his Conibo friends for an antidote without managing to pronounce a word. Then he saw that his visions emanated from giant reptilian creatures that resided at the lowest depths of his brain.

These creatures began projecting scenes in front of his eyes while informing him that this information was reserved for the dying and the dead. 'First, they showed me the planet Earth as it was aeons ago before there was any life on it. I saw an ocean, barren land, and a bright blue sky. Then black specks dropped from the sky by the hundreds and landed in front of me on the barren landscape. I could see that the specks were actually large, shiny black creatures with stubby pterodactyl-like wings and huge whale-like bodies. They explained to me in a kind of thought language, that they were fleeing from something from out in space. They had come to the planet earth to escape their enemy. The creatures then showed me how they had created life on the planet in order to hide within the multitudinous forms, and thus disguise their presence. Before me, the magnificence of plant and animal creation and speciation and hundreds of millions of years of activity, took place on a scale and with a vividness impossible to describe. I learned that dragon-like creatures were thus inside all forms of life, including man.'

At this point in his account, Harner writes in a footnote at the bottom of the page: 'in retrospect, one could say that they were almost like DNA, although at that time, in 1961, I knew nothing of DNA.'

So, I would like to know what was the source and nature of these nearly universal visions that occurs in these shamanistic practices; the various creatures including serpents and bird-headed dudes, and so forth? What is the source of these hallucinations?... (C) In these chemically induced trances, why is there the common experience of seeing these bird-headed or serpent-like creatures?

A: While you have physicality, some part of you will maintain the connection to its roots.

Q: (L) Are you saying that all these people who say that human beings have reptilian genetics, are telling the truth? Do we have reptilian genetics?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Do we also have bird genetics?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) And that is our physical connection or basis?

A: Yes, as third density bioengineered beings, you lead the smorgasbord parade of that which surrounds you in the physical realm.

Q: (A) So, we are 3rd density bioengineered beings. (L) That leads to another question: there is a lot of talk about the Merovingian bloodlines, or the 'Nordic Covenant' bloodlines, or whatever label is put on it, being a 'fresher' version of the reptilian genetic strain. This is represented in the myths of the god Oannes of Sumerian fame, or the Quinotaur who impregnated the mother of Merovee while she was bathing in the sea, and even the wife of the founder of the Angevins, Melusine, variously described as an aquatic fairy or a mermaid. So, there is this claim that there is a stronger and more virile reptilian strain in these bloodlines. Is that correct?

A: It may be.

Q: (L) Well, is that significant in any way?

A: For those obsessed with materialism.

And then, finally, a question asked by an individual whose parents clearly were "something else," though I wouldn't want to say what:

[Your parents are] the parents of the physical not the soul. This is true for all. In some cases, in this particular time in the cycle, many who made plans for this gathering of souls had to take “what you could get" in terms of incarnational options. For the most part strong parent child bonds are part of the genetic body.

 

[aristar]

Thanks to all. Laura, you answered my question and I will come back with some more.
Patricia

 

[Ask-Seek-Knock]

I was researching psychopathy on Youtube after reading two books on the recommended list: In Sheep's Clothing and The Sociopath Next Door and found the following video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZP6YKnxMHk

The videos title is "Psychopathy in the family" in case something happens with the link you can search for it on Youtube. It's only 11:39 so it won't take up to much of anyones time. If this video is already posted on this forum I apologize in advance for the duplicate.

The reason I thought it was appropriate to add to this thread was because the professor on the video, Mark Dadds (University of NSW) says that in callous-unemotional children the evidence is it is more genetic and probably runs in family. Not suggesting that of anyone on the thread just wanted to add more information to the discussion in hopes it helps.

As a side note, while I was watching the children on the video I was reminded of something my grandmother told me... when I was a baby she caught my older sister (2 years older) pinching my cheeks until I cried. And when my grandmother interrupted her, my sister said she's a bad baby because she cries a lot. My grandmother was appalled and told her I would cry too if you pinched my cheeks. Letting my sister know that she saw what she did. Thinking back I hope it was just jealousy as I know that can happen. But still, watching the video kind of freaked me out a bit as I recalled the conversation with my grandmother.

 

[gdpetti]

That image you gave of the girl pinching the cheeks reminds me of that subplot in the anime Kanon in which through learned behaviour, the little girl teaches her little brother to 'tough it out', as her parents taught her... until he dies... he wasn't as 'tough' as her...catalyst for change.

On Video:
1) 'functional psychopath'? Define that word 'functional'?
That little test is a red flag telling one that their answer is subject to interpretation... and not theirs, so the answer must be given with this in mind.

2) No psychologist will label a child as a pyschopath because it is still 'potential' at that stage, though the score high on callous, unemotional traits.
So this shows that the definition of what is or isn't a psychopath is still questionable for those in that profession... sounds very political.
Especially as 'treatment' proved no to work on these children. No amygdula response.
Seems the professionals cannot convince themselves of what they see... isn't that the definition of 'prey'?
Perhaps the professionals are utilizing their mental 'freeze' response?

3) unemotional .... is that child's response an automatic response or a learned one from 'bad experiences' in order to survive their ongoing nature?
This guy admits that he thinks he can 'retrain' them to be like others and not just train them to be better psychopaths.
He seems good at fooling himself, no wonder he is so successful in his job.... as most of his collegues share this ability.
no wonder nothing ever changes... on the whole with psychos learning to avoid these psychologists who seem intent on ignoring genetic traits... as those are much less conducive to their ability to 'retrain' them.
That could be a learned behavior of their own... from the system that taught them or from their inner 'do-gooder' nature that is great at putting on blinders to not see what they don't want to see.
He sounds like most economists that work for the system.
Pathetic, but true.
This little Youtube vid is a nice summation of the problems, mostly with dealing with a system that doesn't seem to believe there is one.

 

[Martina]

I just want to say thanks to all of you who were sharing your researches, stories, knowledge about this topic. it is very helpful to be aware.
it is interesting how most of people don't belive that psychopats actually exist, or they don't want to belive.