Paul Levy on Wetiko psychosis

[upsidedown]

I do not know if the author has knowledge of the Cassiopean material, but much of what he says touches on themes here: psychopathy (which he terms “malignant egophrenia” or “wetiko psychosis”), hyperdimensional predators, the importance of self work, the teachings of Carlos Castenada and Carl Jung.

The one thing the Big Wetikos are most afraid of, however, is large numbers of people seeing through their charade and realizing that the emperor has no clothes. If enough people clearly see what the Big Wetikos are doing – committing unconscionable crimes against humanity on a grand scale while they play roulette with our planetary inheritance – their gig will be up. This is an externalized reflection of how the wetiko virus within ourselves is terrified of being seen, for once the bug is seen, it is ‘out of business.’

Fairdinkum, in what you say above what I have quoted on Levy, it seems that you are making a parallel between psychopathy and what Levy has termed "malignant egophrenia or "wetiko psychosis". If that is so, then I need to ask this question:

If we can put the the wetiko virus within ourselves out of business through becoming aware (seeing it) of the fact that it is there, how do you suppose this aspect of the wetiko disease can be paralleled with psychopathy? If the wetiko disease is just as much out there as it is inside of us, could we say the same thing about psychopathy? Do you think we each have a bit of psychopathy inside of us the way the wetiko bug is said to be there? If we collectively were able to eliminate the psychopathy within us by becoming aware of it, would that wipe it out wherever it exists? Or, are we just talking about the effects of psychopathy, since it seems we could most certainly eliminate the effects more easily than we could the actual "bug" of psychopathy itself. I am just trying to understand the parallels being made between these terms.

 

[anart]

Do you think we each have a bit of psychopathy inside of us the way the wetiko bug is said to be there? If we collectively were able to eliminate the psychopathy within us by becoming aware of it, would that wipe it out wherever it exists?

No, though we each can be ponerized (affected by pathological mindset to the extent that we take that as the norm and behave as such). Reading Political Ponerology would really help you understand this entire issue more clearly.

 

[upsidedown]

No, though we each can be ponerized (affected by pathological mindset to the extent that we take that as the norm and behave as such).

Thanks Anart. What you are calling ponerization is what I am referring to as the effects, which we internalize. Which is what I suspected. What I am wondering though is if we can wipe out the ability to be ponerized, might that not eventually lead to eliminating psychopathy altogether, in a kind of mind over manifestation sense? Thanks for your reference to Politcial Ponerology. I will read it soon.

 

[henry]

What I am wondering though is if we can wipe out the ability to be ponerized, might that not eventually lead to eliminating psychopathy altogether, in a kind of mind over manifestation sense?

Psychopathy is genetic. As long as psychopaths reproduce, there will be more psychopaths.

What we can do is make people aware of the problem, encourage them to study it, and learn how to defend themselves, that is, how to resist ponerization. If we could do this, we might be able to limit or end its influence.

 

[Joe]

Thanks Anart. What you are calling ponerization is what I am referring to as the effects, which we internalize. Which is what I suspected. What I am wondering though is if we can wipe out the ability to be ponerized, might that not eventually lead to eliminating psychopathy altogether, in a kind of mind over manifestation sense?

Well, Ponerization takes place largely as a result of the 'machine-like' state in which most people live their lives, as described by Gurdjieff. The 'infection' of psychopathic ideology and thinking is achieved via manipulation and lies for sure, and it is this susceptibility to being manipulated and lied to that the 'work' on oneself aims, in part, to overcome.

 

[Mountain Crown]

I am also interested in the notion of psychopaths as victims.

"Compassion" carries the meaning of recognizing suffering with the wish for it's relief. The word literally means "to suffer with," and is a kind of sharing.

"Victim" refers to someone who has been acted upon with injury whether by others or by circumstance. The concept of suffering is bound to the term.

If a psychopath had his arm stuck in a wood shredder it may be plausible that compassion could be felt by an onlooker, but compassion for a psychopath as victim by nature of being a psychopath doesn't follow. The knowledge brought to light by the experts is clear that they don't suffer, they are uninhibited by internal strife, and are better suited to compete in this world.

"Compassion for psychopaths as victims" has a paramoralistic feel to it, and few things would please a psychopath more than non-psychopaths adopting it.

Consider a guy whose last feeling before a piano smashes him to smithereens is:

"Poor piano. . . it's not its fault that it's so heavy."

 

[upsidedown]

If a psychopath had his arm stuck in a wood shredder it may be plausible that compassion could be felt by an onlooker, but compassion for a psychopath as victim by nature of being a psychopath doesn't follow. The knowledge brought to light by the experts is clear that they don't suffer, they are uninhibited by internal strife, and are better suited to compete in this world. --Jerry

As non-psychopathic humans, what motivates us to want to heal a psychopath (if that is what we wish)? Is it only because we are more concerned about protecting ourselves than we are about wanting to breath non-psychopathic life into them? Do we regard them as being no different from just something that is purely mechanical, and that is in need of being repaired, like a flat tire for instance, that once it is repaired would enable us to get on down the road? Or, do we wish to heal them (if that is our wish) because, even though we know they are dangerous, there is something inside of us that in an altruistic sense seems to care about their condition?

Or, is it some combination of the two? Would there be other reasons? Can we have altruism without compassion, and vice versa? Were there not "experts" at one time proclaiming that the earth was flat? Jerry, you and many on here sound so absolutely sure of yourselves. That is what concerns me. I know I don't have all the answers, even though I sometimes act as though I do.

 

[anart]

If a psychopath had his arm stuck in a wood shredder it may be plausible that compassion could be felt by an onlooker, but compassion for a psychopath as victim by nature of being a psychopath doesn't follow. The knowledge brought to light by the experts is clear that they don't suffer, they are uninhibited by internal strife, and are better suited to compete in this world. --Jerry

As non-psychopathic humans, what motivates us to want to heal a psychopath (if that is what we wish)? :

Anyone who understands what a psychopath is knows they cannot be 'healed'.

 

[upsidedown]

Anyone who understands what a psychopath is knows they cannot be 'healed'. --Anart

So they can't be healed. Are you also going to say they can't be "repaired"? All we can do with them is to quarantine them? What is their purpose here on this earth. Are they here to keep us in our place, so to speak, or to wake us up? I don't want to make a logical leap (and I'm not being sarcastic), but I feel you are saying that we cannot ever reverse this phenomena. We can't do anything with them, except through what we can do for ourselves. I feel like you are saying that we need them here because their purpose is to make us stronger. Without them we would lose our humility. Try as we may, we will never eradicate evil, all we can do is to learn how to master it before it masters us. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Mountain Crown]

Jerry, you and many on here sound so absolutely sure of yourselves. That is what concerns me. I know I don't have all the answers, even though I sometimes act as though I do.

Many of us here have done our homework. We’re interested in living according to the way things are, not as what we would like things to be.

It’s clear from your posts you haven’t put any real effort into understanding what is the nature of psychopathy, and have received gentle replies; contributions to this thread that show a competence in the material regarding pathology, as well as integrity and kindness toward a member not up to speed. So much so that it takes much effort not to regard the above quote as trolling.

 

[Joe]

Anyone who understands what a psychopath is knows they cannot be 'healed'. --Anart

So they can't be healed. Are you also going to say they can't be "repaired"? All we can do with them is to quarantine them? What is their purpose here on this earth. Are they here to keep us in our place, so to speak, or to wake us up? I don't want to make a logical leap (and I'm not being sarcastic), but I feel you are saying that we cannot ever reverse this phenomena. We can't do anything with them, except through what we can do for ourselves. I feel like you are saying that we need them here because their purpose is to make us stronger. Without them we would lose our humility. Try as we may, we will never eradicate evil, all we can do is to learn how to master it before it masters us. Is that what you are saying?

Pretty much. On the grand cosmic scale (or however you want to imagine it) there isn't much we can do to change this world. It is what it is. Psychopaths seem to be here to enable us to make a choice between their destructive reality and another reality of our choosing. That's all.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

Try as we may, we will never eradicate evil, all we can do is to learn how to master it before it masters us. Is that what you are saying?

This is an interesting point in terms of understanding good and evil, and yes... We are saying that the source of evil is as innate to the universe as the source of good. Many progressives, liberals, leftists, and humanists believe evil is a perversion of good. This implies if the proper "treatments" are found then evil will be eliminated. We are saying that evil is not of the "Lord of The Flies" type which arises becauses this darkness lives in every human. There is a perversion in many humans due to living in cultures that to some degree or another are "ponerized," but this should be understood to be a sort of foreign installation and different from the natural emotional/mental/instinctual complex that a normal human is born with.

I imagine there would still be problems to be solved if for some reason psychopathy did not exist, but at this point in time, ponerization is so advanced that it is difficult to tell where this malignancy stops and human nature starts. Many of us have found in the course of The Work that what at one time we considered "normal" was actually this sickness. In a human with the potential to have conscience, the effects of having psychopaths in positions of influence and power is like a sickness. For the psychopaths, they are living as they were born to live.

If they have suffering, then it is probably more in the form of knowing that if normal humans knew who they are, and studies do seem to suggest they know they are different from us and know their own, then they will not be allowed in positions where they get what they want: dominance and power.

Really... Read Lobaczewski (http://www.ponerology.com/) He understood just how hard it is to swallow this pill. He felt it that it is a blind spot in human nature, hard-wired into the human instinctive sub-stratum, to assume that every other being looking human must have roughly the same internal workings. Perhaps this is the instinctual tendency towards altruism that would have helped many bands of humans to survive and flourish. There is something fondamental inside us to not want to admit this possibility that there are human looking beings that have entirely different internal content and motivations, but the studies of psychopathy, the anecdotal evidence, and how well L's theories explain the state of mankind makes a strong case.

 

[monksgirl]

A point I find a bit disturbing. He seems to be suggesting that the rulers are "victims" of the “wetiko psychosis” like the rest of us. He apparently is not aware of the influence psychopaths, a very distinct type of being.

Psychopaths, as we have learned, are not mentally ill. They are fundamentally different. They have no empathy at all and are incapable of acquiring it. No doubt some non-psychopaths emulate their behavior seeing this as the only way to success. Psychopaths have definitely induced a psychosis on the rest of humanity, training us to behave in ways that benefit them.

A good analysis of how the economic system works, though. And he suggests that waking up to what is happening is essential. But if we don't wake up the reality of beings without conscience in our midst any real change is unlikely.

Mac

Mac, I agree that Levy has a good handle on the actions and control of psychopaths in government. But I would also say he has a decent framework of how the economic system works, but has a fundamental flaw in his understanding, and that is actually part of the psychopathic control mechanism of the world economies, and that is the meme that everything would be better if we went off fiat currency, and had a gold standard. We did not go off gold until Nixon, and there is plenty of evidence of the manipulation of the US economy before that, even long before the founding of the Fed in December 1913, by 3 Senators after the rest had gone home for Christmas, leaving the parliamentary procedure to close the business of the Senate undone. I highly recommend a short video called the Secret of Oz (might be on youtube- the very long version- The Money Masters- is- both made by Bill Still) and the Ellen Brown book Web of Debt. There are many examples of well functioning fiat systems throughout history, from wampum to tally sticks and cheap metals, and fiat built both the Roman and British Empires, and they were both undone by use of gold, which was entirely in the hands of private goldsmiths. As Bill always emphasizes, it is not the form of money that is important, it is who has control of it's quantity. In our system, which is in use throughout the world, the supply is privately mediated, and it is this private control of a government function that gives rise to mischief, including the creating and bursting of bubbles during which private controllers make money both on the way up and the way down. The current economic crisis has a devious little twist that was in use for the first time, and does not bode well for the unwinding of the problem. In past crises, the controllers kept reducing the amount of money in circulation, and this is what caused recessions and depressions, and it is coherent with econ 101. This time, they created false derivatives and the mortgages they were based on, that sucked the value of a majority of housing out of the market,heated up the values, and then let the bubble burst, the most massive transfer of wealth in the history of the world. The toxic derivatives were estimated by Bloomberg to be approximately 600 Trillion dollars, on a world GDP of 65 Trillion. The toxic debt held by our big banks, but kept off their balance sheets (control fraud), amounts to nearly half the amount of the federal deficit of 14 trillion. And our GDP is 14 Trillion. This is a megaton mess waiting to explode, and how they paln to deal with it should be interesting. My bet is that they are going to continue with austerity measures, which are guaranteed to make the problem deeper and more intractable. They are on the way to a long gradual diminishment of living standards, loss of all asset values, loss of public pensions and employment, and then throwing everyone off Social Security. And they have to be stopped.
Please educate yourself about the false gold meme that is everywhere in the media.

 

[HiThere]

Mac, I agree that Levy has a good handle on the actions and control of psychopaths in government. But I would also say he has a decent framework of how the economic system works, but has a fundamental flaw in his understanding, and that is actually part of the psychopathic control mechanism of the world economies, and that is the meme that everything would be better if we went off fiat currency, and had a gold standard. We did not go off gold until Nixon, and there is plenty of evidence of the manipulation of the US economy before that, even long before the founding of the Fed in December 1913, by 3 Senators after the rest had gone home for Christmas, leaving the parliamentary procedure to close the business of the Senate undone. I highly recommend a short video called the Secret of Oz (might be on youtube- the very long version- The Money Masters- is- both made by Bill Still) and the Ellen Brown book Web of Debt. There are many examples of well functioning fiat systems throughout history, from wampum to tally sticks and cheap metals, and fiat built both the Roman and British Empires, and they were both undone by use of gold, which was entirely in the hands of private goldsmiths. As Bill always emphasizes, it is not the form of money that is important, it is who has control of it's quantity. In our system, which is in use throughout the world, the supply is privately mediated, and it is this private control of a government function that gives rise to mischief, including the creating and bursting of bubbles during which private controllers make money both on the way up and the way down. The current economic crisis has a devious little twist that was in use for the first time, and does not bode well for the unwinding of the problem. In past crises, the controllers kept reducing the amount of money in circulation, and this is what caused recessions and depressions, and it is coherent with econ 101. This time, they created false derivatives and the mortgages they were based on, that sucked the value of a majority of housing out of the market,heated up the values, and then let the bubble burst, the most massive transfer of wealth in the history of the world. The toxic derivatives were estimated by Bloomberg to be approximately 600 Trillion dollars, on a world GDP of 65 Trillion. The toxic debt held by our big banks, but kept off their balance sheets (control fraud), amounts to nearly half the amount of the federal deficit of 14 trillion. And our GDP is 14 Trillion. This is a megaton mess waiting to explode, and how they paln to deal with it should be interesting. My bet is that they are going to continue with austerity measures, which are guaranteed to make the problem deeper and more intractable. They are on the way to a long gradual diminishment of living standards, loss of all asset values, loss of public pensions and employment, and then throwing everyone off Social Security. And they have to be stopped.
Please educate yourself about the false gold meme that is everywhere in the media.

I've seen The Money Masters as well and it is scary and thought provoking. I agree with you about the importance of this.

 

[upsidedown]

It’s clear from your posts you haven’t put any real effort into understanding what is the nature of psychopathy, and have received gentle replies; contributions to this thread that show a competence in the material regarding pathology, as well as integrity and kindness toward a member not up to speed. So much so that it takes much effort not to regard the above quote as trolling. --Jerry

Jerry, thanks for the judgmental response you have given me about what you think I am doing here on this site. I will be sure to avoid you the next time I have a question about something (if I am not eradicated by then).

Pretty much. On the grand cosmic scale (or however you want to imagine it) there isn't much we can do to change this world. It is what it is. Psychopaths seem to be here to enable us to make a choice between their destructive reality and another reality of our choosing. That's all. --Perceval

Perceval, thank you for the open and sincere way you have expressed yourself. It is greatly appreciated.

This is an interesting point in terms of understanding good and evil, and yes... We are saying that the source of evil is as innate to the universe as the source of good. Many progressives, liberals, leftists, and humanists believe evil is a perversion of good. This implies if the proper "treatments" are found then evil will be eliminated. We are saying that evil is not of the "Lord of The Flies" type which arises becauses this darkness lives in every human. There is a perversion in many humans due to living in cultures that to some degree or another are "ponerized," but this should be understood to be a sort of foreign installation and different from the natural emotional/mental/instinctual complex that a normal human is born with. --Patience

Patience, thank you for the kind and level headed way you responded to me. I feel that I was not being devalued in the process. You make what I am investigating (not trolling around with) more interesting and easier to understand. I have actually been reading some of Lobaczewski's work. I will check out the website link you gave me.