Martians and Venusians

[Zar]

Since reading all of these romance novels I've been thinking about the differences between the male and female characters and how they interact and complement each other. I've also been trying to understand why each gender(just the two) sees the world the way they do and how they change as they mature. I came upon a book by John Gray that had some interesting ideas regarding communication styles. The book is called: 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - a practical guide for improving communication and getting what you want in your relationships'. (many of you have heard/read it already)

It's a very down to earth book and lacks any in depth scientific data(the target audience is the general public), but I liked this aspect because I had trouble anchoring clinical psychological data into reality. For example; It's known that men generally score higher in disagreeableness compared to women but these differences aren't that large and I have trouble making sense of this data. These psychological characteristics seem more like symptoms of a deeper aspect of genders, DNA differences, etc. that have not been studied(AFAICT).

This book doesn't help in making sense of anything deeper but it instead focuses on understanding the differences in communication styles of genders through fiction, and the problems that occur between couples(and friends/family by extension) due to these differences. I found it very interesting because after reading it I keep seeing a similar dynamic playing out with many people, in and outside the forum(myself included).

I'm going to give a a summary of the main ideas I found interesting/useful with a healthy amount of quotes. Keep in mind that these examples are generalized and many aren't exactly true. But I find that if you think of men as being physically oriented(and/or left brained) and women as being emotionally/mentally oriented(and/or right brained) then these examples make sense in a way.
Also the author does stress that these issues between men and women are usually not present in healthy families, as in children will learn from their parents how to treat each other in a healthy way. I think there may be a biological inclination to act in a certain way but trauma most likely plays a big role in why many people don't understand this.

Chapter one gives an overview of what the book will show, but the main takeaway is the notion that males and females in society live in a sort of selective amnesia. They forget that the genders are different and treat each other as they treated themselves(projecting); males communicate with females as if females were males and vice versa.

Chapter two lays one of the main concepts of how to approach the opposite sex(doesn't necessarily have to be a romantic partner) when communicating and why you should not treat them like they are your own gender.

The most frequent complain women have about men is that men don't listen.

Either a man completely ignores her when she speaks to him, or he listens for a few beats, assesses what is bothering her, and then proudly puts on his Mr. Fix-it cap and offers her a solution to maker her feel better. He is confused when she doesn't appreciate this gesture of love. No matter how many times she tells him that he's not listening, he doesn't get it and keeps doing the same thing. She wants empathy, but he thinks she wants solutions.

The most frequent expressed complaint men have about women is that women are always trying to change them.

When a woman loves a man she feels responsible to assist him in growing and tries to help him improve the way he does things. She forms a home-improvement committee, and he becomes her primary focus. No matter how much he resists her help, she persists-waiting for any opportunity to help him or tell him what to do. She things she's nurturing him, while he feels he's being controlled. Instead, he wants her acceptance.

The reason many people have trouble getting over these issues is because they forget that men are from Mars and women are from Venus. The Author uses fiction to explain these differences but I find them somewhat accurate(at least to my male brain) and humorous.

Life on Mars

Martians value power, competency, efficiency, and achievement. they are always doing things to prove themselves and develop their power and skills. their sense of self is defined through their ability to achieve results. they experience fulfillment primarily through success and accomplishment. Everything on Mars is a reflection of these values. Even their dress is designed to reflect their skills and competence.
....
They are more interested in "objects" and "things" rather than people and feelings. Even today while women fantasize about romance, men fantasize about powerful cars, faster computers, gadgets, gizmos, and new more powerful technology. Men are preoccupied with the "things" than can help them express power by creating results and achieving their goals.
Achieving goals is very important to a Martian because it is a way for him to prove his competence and thus feel good about himself. And for him to feel good about himself he must achieve these goals by himself.... Autonomy is a symbol of efficiency, power, and competence.
Understanding this Martian characteristic can help women understand why men resist so much being corrected or being told what to do. To offer a man unsolicited advice is to presume that he doesn't know what to do or that he can't do it on his own. Men are very touchy about this, because the issue of competence is so very important to them.
.....
However, if he truly does need help, then it is a sign of wisdom to get it. In this case, he will find someone he respects and then talk about his problem. Talking about a problem on Mars is an invitation for advice. Another Martian feels honored by the opportunity. Automatically he puts on his Mr. Fix-It hat, listens for a while, and the offers some jewels of advice.
This Martian custom is one of the reasons men instinctively off solutions when women talk about problems. When a woman innocently shares upset feelings or explores out loud the problems of her day, a man mistakenly assumes she is looking for some expert advice. He puts on his Mr. Fix-It hat and begins giving advice, this is his way of showing love and of trying to help.
He wants to help her feel better by solving her problems. He wants to be useful to her. He feels he can be valued and thus worthy of her love when his abilities are used to solve her problems.
Once he has offered a solution, however, and she continues to be upset it becomes increasingly difficult for him to listen because his solution is being rejected and he feels increasingly useless. He has no idea that by just listening with empathy and interest he can be supportive. He does not know that on Venus talking about problems is not an invitation to offer a solution.

Life on Venus

Venusians have different values. They value love, communication, beauty, and relationships. They spend a lot of time supporting, helping, and nurturing one another. Their sense of self is defined through their feelings and the quality of their relationships. They experience fulfillment through sharing and relating.
Everything on Venus reflects these values. Rather than building highways and tall buildings, the Venusians are more concerned with living together in harmony, community, and loving cooperation. Relationships are more important and work and technology. In most ways their world is opposite of Mars.
.....
Communication is of primary importance. To share their personal feelings is much more important than achieving goals and success. Talking and relating to one another is a source of tremendous fulfillment.
This is hard for a man to comprehend. He can come close to understanding a woman's experience of sharing and relating by comparing it to the satisfaction he feels when he wins a race, achieves a goal, or solves a problem.
Instead of being goal oriented, women are relationship oriented; they are more concerned with expressing their goodness, love, and caring. Two Martians go to lunch to discuss a project or business goal; they have a problem to solve. In addition, Martians view going to a restaurant as an efficient way to approach food: no shopping, no cooking, and no washing dishes. For Venusians, going to lunch is an opportunity to nurture a relationship, for both giving support to and receiving support form a friend. Women's restaurant talk can be very open and intimate, almost like the dialogue that occurs between therapist and patient.
On Venus, everyone studies psychology and has at least a master's degree in counseling. They are very involved in personal growth, spirituality, and everything that can nurture life, healing, and growth. Venus is covered with parks, organic gardens, shopping centers, and restaurants.
Venusians are vey intuitive. They have developed this ability through centuries of anticipating the needs of others. They pride themselves in being considerate of the needs and feelings of others. A sign of great love is to offer help and assistance to another Venusian whiteout being asked.
Because one's competences is not as important to a Venusian, offering help is not offensive, and needing help is not a sign of weakness. A man, however, may feel offended because when a woman offers advice he doesn't feel she trusts his ability to do it himself.
A woman has no conception of this male sensitivity because for her it is another feather in her hat if someone offers to help her. it makes her feel loved and cherished. But offering help to a man can make him feel incompetent, weak, and even unloved.
On Venus it is a sign of caring to give advice and suggestions. Venusians firmly believe that when something is working it can always work better. Their nature is to want to improve things. When they care about someone, they freely point out what can be improved and suggest how to do it. Offering advice and constructive criticism is an act of love.
Mars is very different. Martians are more solution oriented. If something is working, their moto is don't change it. Their instinct is to leave it alone if it is working. "Don't fix it unless it is broken" is a common expression.
When a woman tries to improve a man, he feels she is trying to fix him. He receives the message that he is broken. She doesn't realize her caring attempts to help him may humiliate him. she mistakenly thinks she is just helping him grow.

Since HDT mentions that 90% of most people are traumatize to a degree or another then it's easier to understand that these descriptions have an element of trauma. But again this book is written for the majority of people and is very generalized. What I think is important is for each gender to understand the natural biological inclinations of communications of the other gender and learn to communicate more effectively.

Keeping the above in mind these next example of conversations that the book gives are very common and you can see the different dynamics at play(and hopefully understand why men and women say these cliché things).

Mary comes home from an exhausting day. She wants and needs to share her feelings about the day.
She says, "There is so much to do; I don't have any time for myself."
Tom says, "You should quit that job. You don't have to work so hard. Find something you like to do."
Mary says, "But I like my job. They just expect me to change everything at a moment's notice."
Tome says, "Don't listen to them. Jut do what you can do."
Mary says, "I am! I can't believe I completely forgot to call my aunt today."
Tom says, "Don't worry about it, she'll understand."
Mary says, "Do you know what she is going through? She needs me."
Tome Says, "You worry too much, that's why you're so unhappy."
Mary angrily says, "I am not always unhappy. can't you just listen to me?"
Tom says, "I am listening."
Mary says, "Why do I even bother?"

After this conversation Mary was more frustrated than when she arrived home seeking intimacy and companionship. Tom as also frustrated and had no idea what went wrong. He wanted to help, but his problem-solving tactics didn't' work.
Without knowing about life on Venus, Tom didn't understand how important it was just to listen without offering solutions. His solutions only made things worse. You see, Venusians never offer solutions when someone is talking. A way of honoring another Venusian is to listen patiently with empathy, seeking truly to understand the other's feelings.

Tom had no idea that just listening with empathy to Mary express her feelings would bring her tremendous relief and fulfilment. When Tom heard about Venusians and how much they needed to talk, he gradually learned how to listen.
When Mary now comes home tired and exhausted their conversation are quite different. They sound like this:

Mary says, "There is so much to do. I have no time for me."
Tom takes a deep breath, relaxes on the exhale, and says, "humph, sounds like you had a hard day."
Mary says, "They expect me to change everything at a moment's notice. I don't know what to do."
Tom pauses and then says, "Hmmm."
Mary says, "I even forgot to call my aunt."
Tom says with a slightly wrinkled brow, "Oh, no."
Mary says, "She needs me so much right now, I feel so bad."
Tom says, "You are such a loving person. Come here, let me give you a hug."
Tom gives Mary a hug and she relaxes in his arms with a big sigh of relief. She then says, "I love talking with your. You make me really happy. Thanks for listening. I feel much better."
Not only Mary but also Tom felt better. He was amazed at how much happier his wife was when he finally learned to listen. With this new awareness of their differences, Tome learned the wisdom of listening without offering solutions while Mary learned the wisdom of letting go and accepting without offering unsolicited advice of criticism.
To summarize the two most common mistakes we make in relationships:

1. A man tries to change a woman's feelings when she is upset by becoming Mr. Fix-it and offering solutions to her problems that invalidate her feelings.

2. A woman tries to change a man's behaviors when he makes a mistake by becoming the home-improvement committee and offering unsolicited advice or criticism.

I hope this example get's the point across of how an understanding of different communications styles will help us learn to give what is actually asked.
Especially during these chaotic times there will be many people asking for many things, and it may just be that they need someone to listen to instead of some advice. We tend to want to give advice, considering all of the information we sift through on a daily basis, but I'm thinking that doesn't actually help the majority of people. It would be a good idea to just listen first, hold the space, and as you're listening figure out what is being asked(most women, and some men, may already naturally do this). I am also wondering since the wave is hyper kinetic sensate, if many people will start operating more out of their right brain than before and hence their communications would change due to their needs changing?

The second concept has to do with tendencies males and females have to deal with stress in their life. John Gray explains that males retreat to their man caves while women need to talk.

When Tom comes home, he wants to relax and unwind by quietly reading the news. He is stressed by the unsolved problems of his day and finds relief through forgetting them.
His Wife, Mary, also wants to relax from her stressful day. She, however, wants to find relief by talking about the problems of her day. The tension slowly building between the them gradually becomes resentment.
Tom secretly things Mary talk too much, while Mary feels ignored. Without understanding their differences they will grown further apart.

Finding relief in the cave

When a man is stressed he will withdraw into the cave of his mind and focus on solving a problem. He generally picks the most urgent problem or the most difficult. He becomes so focused on solving this one problem that he temporarily loses awareness of everything else. Other problems and responsibilities fade into the background.
At such times, he becomes increasingly distant. forgetful, unresponsive, and preoccupied in his relationships. For example, when having a conversation with him at home, it seems as if only 5 percent of his mind is available for the relationship while the other 95 percent is still at work.
His full awareness is not present because he is mulling over his problem, hoping to find a solution. The more stressed he is the more gripped by the problem he will be. At such times he is incapable of giving a woman the attention and feeling that she normally receives and certainly deserves. His mind is preoccupied, and he is powerless to release it. If however, he can find a solution, instantly he will feel much better and come out of his cave; suddenly he is available for being in a relationship again.
However, if he cannot find a solution to his problem, then he remains stuck in the cave. To get unstuck he is drawn to solving little problems, like reading the news, watching TV, driving his car, doing physical exercise, watching a football game, playing basketball, and so forth. Any challenging activity that initially requires only 5 percent of his mind can assist him in forgetting his problems and becoming unstuck. The next day he can redirect his focus to his problem with greater success.

Now I am not so sure if this is just a male thing because it seems we all need some downtime to recharge our batteries. And I also think that we deal with trauma this way, we clock out of reality if the stress is too great since our bodies can't or don't get a chance to deal with it. But I think what the author proposes is that men tend to act like an elastic band naturally; they are grounded in reality and as they get stressed they stretch and recede into their caves until they have recharged and snap back to the present. So if someone notices that their husband/friend/brother is not fully present it's just a natural way to deal with the stresses of life. And likewise if you notice that you're tired then it's ok to take some time to positively dissociate or tinker with something for a while.

What John Gray proposes is that women deal with stress in a different way. He says they are more like a wave than an elastic band; they recharge through empathetic communication. He explains that naturally women are more intuitive then men and would pick up on their friend needing an outlet, but it can be troublesome when married because some men won't understand this and won't be able to provide the space for this to happen.

Finding relief through talking

When a woman is stressed she instinctively feels a need to talk about her feelings and all possible problems that are associated with her feelings. When she begins talking she does not prioritize the significance of any problems. If she is upset, then she is upset about it all, big and small. She is not immediately concerned with finding solutions to her problems but rather seeks relief by expressing herself and being understood. By randomly talking about her problems, she becomes less upset.

The author states that this tendency for woman is another cycle outside of the monthly cycle. This may mean that there will be times when it'll be easier to maintain positive emotions while at other times it'll be more difficult, and an empathetic ear will make the world of a difference. I've never head of this so I'm not soo sure if this is the case, wondering if anyone has heard/noticed/experienced this?

That being said I have noticed that many men who are very stuck in left brain don't recognize when a woman need to just talk and release. So this may server as at least a reminder to pay attention and look at your reactions. Generally if you are told from a woman that you are not listening then you are probably not seeing the unseen.

The rest of the book goes into more detail and points out a few other problems but I think this might serve as a good summary to understand the takeaway message. I'm also still trying to understand this but it was a quick read that I though may be useful to some people. Comments, critiques, personal stories, and questions are welcome.

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

The author states that this tendency for woman is another cycle outside of the monthly cycle. This may mean that there will be times when it'll be easier to maintain positive emotions while at other times it'll be more difficult, and an empathetic ear will make the world of a difference. I've never head of this so I'm not so sure if this is the case, wondering if anyone has heard/noticed/experienced this?

Thank Zar for commentary on the book. I must admit it's not a book I've ever thought of reading. I had an ah ha moment reading the above paragraph. I never realised this is how I think, but yes, the high-lighted sentence is what has always and still works for me. I just never saw it. Another little pear of wisdom.

This backs up Jordan Petersons, especially when he quotes the Sweden experiment, that men basically like things and women like people. This is, of course, at the very basic level before trauma and other life events interrupt the dynamics.

Thank you Zar.

 

[seek10]

I did read John Gray's books, watched his video's ( those are MSM stuff at that time) as a means to get some understanding of my marriage almost 20 years back. Well, it helped a bit atleast to understand some of temperaments and its possible effect on others. But, the life is lot more complicated than simple genetic body driven misunderstandings John Gray addresses. so if it is taken proper context, and both partners are flexible and willing to work through, I think it may be useful. I guess, if we go by current woke branding, he may be branded as 'racist' for his work.