Information needed on Gary E. Schwartz

[Russ]

A friend of mine is going through some bad times at the moment, and just been diagnosed with bi-polar depression. I am glad about it in a way, because its triggering interest in things for him, it seems to be giving him a deeper perspective on life. However I also see it as a very "dangerous" time for him, ie. he is vunerable.

Don't get me wrong though, hes not "thick", in fact hes very clever, but probably inexperienced in this arena. And by arena I don't mean philosophical stuff (we discuss things like this very often), but the state of "needing" to know, rather than it just being a vauge interest.

He has bought a book by Gary E. Schwartz, I think its called "the living universe". I have never heard of this man before, but he seems to be finding the book a lot of comfort and is saying he feels a lot better because of it.

Since I haven't heard about Gary E. Schwartz before I want to do some research into who he is, what hes done, and what he is saying. So as one of the first parts of my research I'm asking here if anyone knows any background information about him, that would take me much longer to find by myself. I don't intend to interfere with my friend's chosen path, but just be there for him if he needs me.

My first thoughts from skimming over it, seem like disinfo. But thats because it sounded very new-agey. However, I can't be sure just yet (I only found out about this person about 1h30 ago). My friend says he takes a scientific approach at finding out if there is an afterlife, telepathy, etc. Things like that. My friend knows the evidence isn't conclusive, but still, that doesn't mean its "safe" with regards to though patterns and how it could pan out in the future.

I told him about this site and he seemed to be too ready to dismiss it, but he did say he'd check it out. Although I don't really know how to explain this site in a nutshell, if thats even possible. The funny thing is, when he told me about the book, I took down the authors name and checked it out, but he didnt ask me for this websites address, so I didn't give it to him (I don't want to force it on him). But I still think he would like this website, and that theres a lot that this site can offer him. I think he has a lot to offer this site too, if he gets on his feet, so to speak (I say site but of course its more than that).

I can't think of much more to say, so thanks for reading, and in advance for any help or information you can give.

 

[Russ]

I'm listening to this "coast to coast" radio interview at the moment to get a better idea of the person:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkYOmWg94Iw

So far seems a bit vauge. I guess radio interviews always are. But that coast to coast interviews him is already a warning sign.

 

[anart]

Hi Russ, I know you mean well regarding your friend and have only his best interest at heart, but, perhaps it would be wise to remember that determining the needs of another is STS. We cannot push our friends in any way as far as this material is concerned. As a matter of fact, almost always, such encouragement not only abridges Free Will, but results in a push back and the destruction of any opportunity to come to the material on one's own.

In this way, we tend to do much more damage than good in such situations. You seem rather invested in your friend's 'development' which is not a great sign. Being concerned is fantastic, but becoming identified with whether or not he reads, understands or 'likes' this material is really walking down a dangerous and damaging road.

I don't see much problem with looking into this Schwartz person ( I don't have any info on him for you) - but even pushing that information on your friend might be a dangerous thing to do - he, ultimately NEEDS to have a chance to learn lessons on his own. That doesn't mean you can't be supportive and give when asked - but anything else tends to be based in self-importance, identification and determining the needs of another.

Just some thoughts - I know he's going through a rough time and you are concerned for him, but perhaps some self-observation might be wise as well.

 

[Russ]

Hi Anart, this is why I thought it would be best to ask here. I am aware that this is a very delicate time for him, and if I interfere I could do a lot more harm than good.

I am also interested in Schwartz for myself, not just because I'm concerned about my friend. Its a name I haven't heard before and he seems to have published a number of books, along the kind of lines that I find interesting.

Seeing as my friend has interest in an author which is in the same "ballpark" as a lot of the cassiopean information, it shows he is already open to these kinds of ideas, and is interested in them. So I see no harm in mentioning the site, because simply by telling me he is interested, and asking for a discussion about it, is like indirectly asking me what I think, and what I research (not sure how I could avoid it either).

I am sort of glad he was diagnosed with depression, and desiring a deeper understanding of things, because it brings us closer as friends. It doesn't mean to say I have a vested interest in it, its just nice that it turned out that way. I have many different friends, I understand the futility of trying to change people or force them into things.

In the end it is my friends choice what he does, and I accept that. But what he needs and what he wants are different. I don't try to determine what he needs, but if he talks about this kind of stuff and wants to discuss it, I don't see the harm in being educated so I can respond in the least interfering, and most helpful way possible. In fact it is me who I am more concerned about - what I say and do can affect him now a lot more than it could have done before. The same goes for Schwartz - I need to know what he is saying and doing, so I can prepare for "attacks", as I understand it, this period could be full of them, and since I am such a close friend, I could easily be involved in many ways.

 

[Cyre2067]

He has bought a book by Gary E. Schwartz, I think its called "the living universe". I have never heard of this man before, but he seems to be finding the book a lot of comfort and is saying he feels a lot better because of it.

Great! He was suffering and found something to alleviate it. Regardless of whether or not it's COINTELPRO are you gonna take that away from your friend?

I don't intend to interfere with my friend's chosen path, but just be there for him if he needs me.

Are you sure about that one? Imho you seem to be looking for info that will somehow discredit this author so you can take that to your friend. I've played the part of the 'good friend' all too much, so I know this drive well, and I told myself the exact same thing. Whether or not you mean it honestly or are using it as self-deception is something only you can know however.

My friend knows the evidence isn't conclusive, but still, that doesn't mean its "safe" with regards to though patterns and how it could pan out in the future.

I'm not quite sure what your saying here. It sounds like your friend is reading it with a healthy dose of skepticism, but you're worried that this book may be somehow affecting his 'thought patterns' and could malevolently impact his future?

I told him about this site and he seemed to be too ready to dismiss it, but he did say he'd check it out. Although I don't really know how to explain this site in a nutshell, if thats even possible. The funny thing is, when he told me about the book, I took down the authors name and checked it out, but he didnt ask me for this websites address, so I didn't give it to him (I don't want to force it on him). But I still think he would like this website, and that theres a lot that this site can offer him. I think he has a lot to offer this site too, if he gets on his feet, so to speak (I say site but of course its more than that).

Perhaps he isn't 'ready' - the first time I found sott/cass it was when the pentagon strike came out. I had a look at the website, saw the cover of high strangeness and thought 'Oh wow they're into aliens, forget this'. I came back a few years later and with much more experience under my belt I was open to more concepts and ideas. People seem to find the info when they're honestly and openly seeking it.

All in all I think ya should take Anart's advice seriously, and pay attention to your own emotions/thoughts regarding the matter because they will deceive you if you aren't careful. You could inhibit him from ever finding the material and giving it an open minded read through if you aren't careful.

I know all too well the damage we can do to our friends when we start determining their needs and giving them 'advice' so I hope I can stress the importance of checking your emotions and your intentions when trying to spread info to friends.

Good Luck to you and your friend.

edit: I did some searching on Gary, found one critical article here: _http://skepdic.com/essays/gsandsv.html that kinda tears him apart, but when I went straight to the horses mouth _http://www.drgaryschwartz.com/ I found that he's published repeatedly in peer reviewed journals. Then again, this article: _http://www.thepsychictimes.com/articles/life_after_death.htm seems to show he validates John Edwards, who I'm pretty sure is simply a con man with a knack for cold-reading (or in the words of one Stan Marsh - The Biggest Dusche in the Universe). He also seems to be invested in 'mediumship' and communication with the dead and proving it's scientific validity, kinda a waste of time given the fact that our world's on fire imho. So in the brief time (~15minutes or so) i've spent analyzing him I've concluded he's just another sleep-walker, nothing exceptional, but perhaps reading this subject opens up your friends mind to other things and reading. I mean, how many of the forumites hit Crowley and Icke first? More then a couple.

 

[anart]

I am sort of glad he was diagnosed with depression, and desiring a deeper understanding of things, because it brings us closer as friends.

Since my gentle approach seems to have missed the mark, let me attempt to put it this way: you are thinking of no one and nothing but yourself. Either you can see that or you cannot. Cyre's take on it is pretty spot on.

 

[Russ]

No one and nothing but myself? I can understand that I am thinking partly about myself, but 100%, wow. It seems you make that statement just to make an impact, to dig for feedback. If not I would like to know how you came to the conclusion, maybe I am totally blind to it, but at the moment I can't see it - with your help maybe I can. I'm open to the idea, I know I'm not perfect, but I didn't think I was that bad.

 

[Russ]

Great! He was suffering and found something to alleviate it. Regardless of whether or not it's COINTELPRO are you gonna take that away from your friend?

I never said I was going to try and take it away from him, besides, even if I wanted to, it would be a ridiculous amount of effort. In fact right now I think it would be almost impossible.

I don't intend to interfere with my friend's chosen path, but just be there for him if he needs me.

Are you sure about that one? Imho you seem to be looking for info that will somehow discredit this author so you can take that to your friend. I've played the part of the 'good friend' all too much, so I know this drive well, and I told myself the exact same thing. Whether or not you mean it honestly or are using it as self-deception is something only you can know however.

If I intended to interfere with his path, surely I would have mentioned this site to him more often than about the two times I have done in the past? We have a lot of philosophical discussions and I never "challenge" him over his views, but accept them and we just share what we think and know.

He is in a strange way at the moment, I don't really want to talk too much about the specifics of his condition "behind his back" seeing as its personal, and this may not turn out to be as anonymous as it is at the moment. I don't think he'd appreciate me talking too much about it in public. But suffice to say its a dangerous situation, and also a very complicated and confusing one. The way I see it, I'm just trying to get as much information as I can, in case it turns "pear-shaped".

My friend knows the evidence isn't conclusive, but still, that doesn't mean its "safe" with regards to though patterns and how it could pan out in the future.

I'm not quite sure what your saying here. It sounds like your friend is reading it with a healthy dose of skepticism, but you're worried that this book may be somehow affecting his 'thought patterns' and could malevolently impact his future?

I'm concerned that it could do. I don't know if it will. I don't even know if thats a good or bad thing. What I should have said is that he says he knows the evidence isn't conclusive, but the way hes acting is as if it is. What about that little bit of doubt? I'm no expert, I'm not sure how these things can turn out. But I want to be cautious about it.

I know this forum is here to help, but theres so much picking holes, its almost like you're blind to the fact that I knew posting about it here would be one of the best things I could do for him. Its like, "at all costs, find him to be guilty of being selfish, ignore anything which points in the other direction".

If you want people to be honest on the forum, you've got to give credit where its due and stop making assumptions biased to the negative side of people. I won't stop being as honest as I can but you'vegot to watch it because some people will eventually start holding back on saying things, and that is, imo, where a group situation becomes detrimental rather than a benefit - almost like peer pressure, bullying etc. and it can be easier for a group to "validate" itself than a person can, because if you have more than one person saying something, it begins to look true. I don't believe that this group is as much less vunerable to it than any other, and its dangerous to think that. The problem is human beings copy each other, its in our nature.

I remeber when I first joined Casschat, it was a viscious place. There was so much nastyness, and I know about the concept of being cruel to be kind, but it was too far. When the group settled down into a more balanced approach (I'm not entirely sure how it happened), it seemed to me that far more progress was being made. I think there may have been a point where the posts became moderated (not sure if they always were though). Anyway, I know this is a bit off topic but I thought it was relevant, I don't want to distract from the conversation too much.

Perhaps he isn't 'ready' - the first time I found sott/cass it was when the pentagon strike came out. I had a look at the website, saw the cover of high strangeness and thought 'Oh wow they're into aliens, forget this'. I came back a few years later and with much more experience under my belt I was open to more concepts and ideas. People seem to find the info when they're honestly and openly seeking it.

Well, thats the thing. I told him about some of the stuff and he sounded very interested, I mean VERY interested. Then at the end of it he done a 180 and said "oh, I prefer the more scientific approach", at which point it threw me, and thought, wow, I must have made it sound really kooky.

All in all I think ya should take Anart's advice seriously, and pay attention to your own emotions/thoughts regarding the matter because they will deceive you if you aren't careful. You could inhibit him from ever finding the material and giving it an open minded read through if you aren't careful.

I know, I do try to pay attention to my own emotions and thoughts, hence some of the sentances which sound (and are) selfish. But its one thing to have a few selfish thoughts, and to be completely and utterly selfish.

I know I could inhibit him from ever finding the material if I'm not careful, but like you said, a couple of years down the line he might remember what I said and think, "oh, that doesn't sound so weird now, I'll ask him about it".

Good Luck to you and your friend.

Thanks but I'm not sure I believe in luck ;) but seriously thanks for the sentiment.

edit: I did some searching on Gary, found one critical article here: _http://skepdic.com/essays/gsandsv.html that kinda tears him apart, but when I went straight to the horses mouth _http://www.drgaryschwartz.com/ I found that he's published repeatedly in peer reviewed journals. Then again, this article: _http://www.thepsychictimes.com/articles/life_after_death.htm seems to show he validates John Edwards, who I'm pretty sure is simply a con man with a knack for cold-reading (or in the words of one Stan Marsh - The Biggest Dusche in the Universe). He also seems to be invested in 'mediumship' and communication with the dead and proving it's scientific validity, kinda a waste of time given the fact that our world's on fire imho. So in the brief time (~15minutes or so) i've spent analyzing him I've concluded he's just another sleep-walker, nothing exceptional, but perhaps reading this subject opens up your friends mind to other things and reading. I mean, how many of the forumites hit Crowley and Icke first? More then a couple.

Thanks for the links, I know, Icke etc can draw people to this site. They can also draw a lot of people away from it. What is worse/better, me, or Schwartz, or Icke etc? Got to weigh it all up. Maybe I'm being a bit too emotional because I am also shocked at hearing the news about my friend, so maybe I'll calm down a bit. But at the moment knowing what hes reading could help things which I can't see at the moment, but could develop. Its just something I learnt from experience, a feeling, that I should gather information even if I'm not sure if it will be useful or not. Do you know what I mean?

 

[vinny]

No one and nothing but myself? I can understand that I am thinking partly about myself, but 100%, wow. It seems you make that statement just to make an impact, to dig for feedback. If not I would like to know how you came to the conclusion, maybe I am totally blind to it, but at the moment I can't see it - with your help maybe I can. I'm open to the idea, I know I'm not perfect, but I didn't think I was that bad.

So it feels like you are being 'poked'? it might be worth you stepping back and examining those feelings for a minute.

It's a bit like Castaneda's reaction when he is told "The predator gave you his mind", or how people react to the assertion by Gurdjieff that man does NOTHING, everything 'just happens'.

You'll know by now that cyre and anart are not in the habit of 'playing' people just to elicit a reaction, but are sincerely interested in providing feedback for those who ask for it. So maybe examine where your inner reaction came from, ask yourself some questions, see if there's some inner dialog. This might give you some insight into your hidden (from yourself) motivations towards what you're doing with this friend of yours. "Be suspicious" of every move the predator pulls ;)

 

[Color]

If I intended to interfere with his path, surely I would have mentioned this site to him more often than about the two times I have done in the past? We have a lot of philosophical discussions and I never "challenge" him over his views, but accept them and we just share what we think and know.

He is in a strange way at the moment, I don't really want to talk too much about the specifics of his condition "behind his back" seeing as its personal, and this may not turn out to be as anonymous as it is at the moment. I don't think he'd appreciate me talking too much about it in public. But suffice to say its a dangerous situation, and also a very complicated and confusing one. The way I see it, I'm just trying to get as much information as I can, in case it turns "pear-shaped".

Hi Russ,

it may be a good thing for you to stop reacting and take a deep breath. It's obvious you're deeply invested in this situation,
for whatever reason. You explain it as a sincere concern for your friend and strongly defending that perspective.
It's also obvious you're not satisfied with responses and perspective of others, pointing out some things about you, instead of
'helping you to help your friend'. Your 'good intentions' and 'good self image' dislike it a big time.

The thing is - networking helps us to see things in us that we're UNABLE or REFUSING to see.
This thread speaks greatly of your own 'good intentions', but please stop for a second and try
to examine those, from the point of Work. Give yourself at least a small open chance in which those 'good intentions'
may not be so good and so 'innocent'. That's all. If you can do that and take it as a start point for some serious Work,
it would be the best thing, both for you and your friend.

A subjective man can have no general concept of good and evil. For a
subjective man evil is everything that is opposed to his desires or
interests or to his conception of good.

One may say that evil does not exist for subjective man at all, that
there exist only different conceptions of good. Nobody ever does anything
deliberately in the interests of evil, for the sake of evil. Everybody acts
in the interests of good, as he understands it. But everybody understands it
in a different way. Consequently men drown, slay, and kill one another in
the interests of good. The reason is again just the same, men's ignorance
and the deep sleep in which they live.

 

[Russ]

Ok, I have given it some thought. Something I have found even in this short time, is there is an element of wanting to show off, to say, "now you're starting this path, look at what I have found in my time, its much better". Then that might make me feel good, disguised as feelings of having helped him, but really its the gratification of having proven myself to be superior or more advanced.

Theres also another thing. In some ways I don't want to advance because it feels as though I'm leaving people behind, and can't take them with me, if that makes sense. Even though I know I am capable if I really worked hard at it, I can't seem to cross that barrier where I accept the situation in my head, and move on. Its like I don't want to be alone, my imperfections work well in the world and help me to fit in, its hard to tear them out even though they're not doing myself or others any good.

The friend I'm talking about is by far one of the most arrogant people I know, and thats saying a lot since I am pretty arrogant. I suppose it feels good to get one over on him, incredibly selfish though. Its time I grew up really.

Another thing is I find it hard to trust people. I've had people blame things on me so they can get away with it, then get people to kick my head in. It affected me I suppose. Its not too bad in normal life and making friends etc, but when people are talking about things which part of me doesnt want to accept, the program seems to get triggered, maybe by now I use it as an excuse to discredit what people say to me about myself.

Its really hard to accept that its true but having looked as honestly as I can, as much as I don't like it, its definately there... lurking, disguising itself, and hiding from being discovered. Its really creepy, sort of disgusting. Its like its always been there, and I've known about it, but the lies are so strong that it doesn't matter.

Its strange how I also realised that there are certain tactical manuvers being played out in this thread, both by my predator and by the people trying different techniques to make it trip up.

In the end I think Color's post helped the most, although it could have been the combination of posts. But color seemed to use a strategy of making me feel better about looking at that part of myself, by stating that my intentions were good. That way there seemed to be less of a "fall" to take, less embarressment, which is like giving a treat to a dog in order to make it sit, I suppose. In a way it made it easier to step back from my ideas and thoughts, and saw them as a seperate thing which I had to look at and deal with, if that makes sense. Using the word predator seemed to help a lot.

I don't know if thats a cop out or not. Is it me? I don't know. I didn't think I was like that. I feel betrayed by myself. Thinking of it as a predator within me seems to help.

But it is times like this which make me want to share this site with my friend. And it really does feel genuine, that I want to help him. But I haven't really considered what it would mean for him to actually log onto this forum and get this kind of feedback. I didn't even think about it, I just thought it would automatically "work". Thats pretty scary.

But I am beginning to see what you guys mean and as much as its difficult, I appreciate it a lot. Having to read my boring self important lie ridden posts, what a yawn fest. Its probably why I don't like re-reading my posts after writing them. I dunno. It just didn't seem that bad before and now it does. But also it seems a bit better because I've told you all about it now, and feels like I can finally accept it and deal with it. In a way I suppose my predator is trying to stay alive, and wanted to hide that from me at all costs.

Probably because I've been reading these forum posts, books, etc for so long, I'm not THAT surprised about this, also I always kind of knew but never "looked" at it, because I didn't want to deal with it. Pretty much its like a switch and I just flip it, all I really needed was to have a "route" to do it, or a "shock" as G says. Its like I knew it was there but didn't want to know about the details, didn't want to look at it because then I'd have to find out all about it and I knew it would change me, and its scary, almost like dying.

 

[RedFox]

Hi Russ (you replied as I was writing the below, decided to post anyway as it may still be of use...also seems the sites being redirected again! ack)

Sounds like an emotional time for you and your friend.
Having been in a similar situation to your friend, perhaps I may be able to give you a bit of perspective on thwe situation.
When I started finding and reading 'New Age' books, along with some psychology books to help me deal with my depression, I didn't half lap it up.
It made me feel good! The excitement of exploration...and the sweetness of the words.
That was some 6/7years ago now. And I have only in the last year or so reached the point where I can say I feel capable of tackling the Work. I didn't know about it until a year or so ago, but looking back the bits of it I did run accross in my searching didn't 'appeal' to me, or made little sence at the time.

So what got me to this point? I learnt that those sweet words didn't 'fix' anything....usually after a month or two of slipping down into a depression all the time thinking 'havn't I delat with this already?'
So when I remembered myself long enough to realise that depression (for me) comes from blocking lessons I started looking again, firstly for more sweet words and something simple to hold onto that 'explains' it all (i.e. made me 'feel' good, about the world).
The cycle of depression and looking repeated, and slowly I've refined (unconcoisely) my searching. Didn't realise it fully until now.

At the time I was thoroughly stuck in a selfish energy stealing 'pitty me' mode. Learning to see that is probably how I learnt to look for more substance, and not more 'free' lunches.

what I'm doing now is requestioning all the stuff I lapped up. But at the time, that was the last thing on my mind.

Anyway..

A friend of mine is going through some bad times at the moment, and just been diagnosed with bi-polar depression. I am glad about it in a way, because its triggering interest in things for him, it seems to be giving him a deeper perspective on life. However I also see it as a very "dangerous" time for him, ie. he is vunerable.

I am sort of glad he was diagnosed with depression, and desiring a deeper understanding of things, because it brings us closer as friends.

Maybe I'm being a bit too emotional because I am also shocked at hearing the news about my friend, so maybe I'll calm down a bit.

Although this has already been said, looking at the emotional 'shock' of your friend being diagnosed would be a good place to start. Whenever I have emotions triggered I try and be mindful of them and ask myself what this can show me about myself.
The bigger the emotional responce, the more important to investigate.

I told him about some of the stuff and he sounded very interested, I mean VERY interested. Then at the end of it he done a 180 and said "oh, I prefer the more scientific approach", at which point it threw me, and thought, wow, I must have made it sound really kooky.

That reminds me of my energy stealing. You must have put alot of emotional energy into your explanation, so how did his u-turn at the end feel? Draining perhaps?
Unholy Hungers by Barbara Hort may help you with this.
Although it is probably a releif to your friend that he has been diagnosed (it was to me), as he can now 'deal' with it by searching for answers, he has also suffered a 'shock' and will be 'reacting' in the ways that got him into the depression to start with.

I need to know what he is saying and doing, so I can prepare for "attacks", as I understand it, this period could be full of them, and since I am such a close friend, I could easily be involved in many ways.

Everyone is always under attack, being at a point to change things in his life will not change that. Besides, is he not be the one that needs to learn that there are such things as 'attacks' and how to spot them and defend himself?
For yourself it may be useful to look at your feelings of perceived responsibility towards him? Would being responsible for preparing for attacks on him be helpful or a hinderence to you both?

Theres also another thing. In some ways I don't want to advance because it feels as though I'm leaving people behind, and can't take them with me, if that makes sense. Even though I know I am capable if I really worked hard at it, I can't seem to cross that barrier where I accept the situation in my head, and move on. Its like I don't want to be alone, my imperfections work well in the world and help me to fit in, its hard to tear them out even though they're not doing myself or others any good.

Felt exactly the same until recently. Not sure what changed exactly other than pushing to get on with the job of understanding and cleaning my machine. The feeling changed more to a sadness than a fear of leaving them behind. Perhaps what changed is that my fear of being alone is less now.

 

[Russ]

Thanks Redfox. You're right I have a lot to think about, and be careful about every move I make. And it doesn't really matter what I'm doing either, I shouldn't let my guard down for one thing and raise it for another. But I know its important to first observe myself and admit things to myself a lot more, and I appreciate that networking is a great help in that regard.

I have to say, was worried that he might read this new-agey information and get even more depressed if he realises at some point its not working, and from what I could understand, if it gets much worse, it can be very dangerous (suicide etc, he lives alone and doesnt have much contact with people). But I think from the shock of hearing it I have over reacted, but I'm calming down a bit now. Thats not to say I don't still see it as a possibility, but I'm accepting more that its his life and I am no expert, I really should be more externally considerate.

Maybe its because I never went through the new-age stage, I did join some psychic awareness group but it was just a passing interest, nothing major. The next thing I found was the cass website. So for me it was pretty much straight into this website, and from there I found things like David Icke etc. It doesn't seem to be the usual way people find this site, I can't even remember anymore how I did find it. In the end though, just because I went to the cass site early on doesnt mean everyone should. I suppose everyone needs different "medication".

 

[Appollynon]

Hi Russ, I know you mean well regarding your friend and have only his best interest at heart, but, perhaps it would be wise to remember that determining the needs of another is STS. We cannot push our friends in any way as far as this material is concerned. As a matter of fact, almost always, such encouragement not only abridges Free Will, but results in a push back and the destruction of any opportunity to come to the material on one's own.

In this way, we tend to do much more damage than good in such situations. You seem rather invested in your friend's 'development' which is not a great sign. Being concerned is fantastic, but becoming identified with whether or not he reads, understands or 'likes' this material is really walking down a dangerous and damaging road.

I don't see much problem with looking into this Schwartz person ( I don't have any info on him for you) - but even pushing that information on your friend might be a dangerous thing to do - he, ultimately NEEDS to have a chance to learn lessons on his own. That doesn't mean you can't be supportive and give when asked - but anything else tends to be based in self-importance, identification and determining the needs of another.

Just some thoughts - I know he's going through a rough time and you are concerned for him, but perhaps some self-observation might be wise as well.

Thank you for this reply to Russ’s initial question Anart. I have highlighted above the parts that really have resonance with a situation I was myself involved in until I learnt something about myself. I have a good friend who has always been very interested in esoteric books, thinking and alternative science, and when we first met around, I begun to talk about the ideas I was reading about form the Cass site and the older versions of the signs site. What I hadn’t realised at the time, was that although in many of our meetings and time spent together we would both share ideas and help each other learn more than we could on our own, I became far to identified with my friends progress and interest in the work and the signs of our times. I would spend quite a considerable amount of energy and invested considerable time, lending books, making myself available to talk things over, and printing off interesting things for my friend to read, when I wasn’t always asked to (which as you have said quite rightly, at times abridged my friends free will to work on her own). To some degree I think I was seeking validation of my own “work”, and ideas in my friend, when I should have been just concentrating on my own development and not that of others when they don’t always ask.
The funny thing about this situation is that ever since I have taken a step back, I have realised that my friend has only really been doing the work sporadically and when I’ve been there to hold her hand and guide her through it. It was me who had projected onto her my own interpretation of what I thought she was doing and should be doing, while all the time not seeing it was me projecting into her life my own dramas and issues. Although in many instances help was asked for, there were just as many times when help was given without it being asked for, and in this sense I wasn’t letting my friend fully experience “the work” for herself or decide whether to do “the work” without my constant pushing the issue. I think this issue of seeking validation from a friend or someone I know is one of the biggest traps that I fall into in my life, it has rode roughshod over my love life and my personal life. It’s only recently really that I’ve starting to seek validation from myself about who I am and what I’m doing with my life, and realised that if I can be happy with myself and continue to do the work on myself and help other when they ask, then I no longer fall into the trap of needing validation or identifying with anyone in ways I have done in the past. You have said to Russ that a little more self observation is needed, and that’s some advice I also needed to hear. So thank you Anart.

I am sort of glad he was diagnosed with depression, and desiring a deeper understanding of things, because it brings us closer as friends. It doesn't mean to say I have a vested interest in it, its just nice that it turned out that way.

I don’t mean to be pedantic or picky Russ, but I found this above quote to be very confusing, and I’m still wondering what was meant by it, as the way you have worded it, sounds like your glad your friend has been diagnosed with depression, which makes him need you more. I may sound strange for saying this, but if a friend of mine was diagnosed with Depression, then I wouldn’t take it as a positive thing, I’d be upset that someone I care about is unhappy and I’d likely worry that they may turn to anti-depressants to help cope (which I don’t think always help the situation, and in many ways make it worse). From what you have shared, it sounds a little like you want to be your friends saviour/ hero and as Cyre has commented, that’s not a healthy way to be thinking and in many ways is the same type of thing I was doing with my friend as I have mentioned above, trying to be the one to guide them on their way. You obviously care a great deal about your friend, and it’s great that you make time for him to help him when he asks. Just don’t make the same mistakes I have made and try to be everybody’s saviour, as in the end I was the one who ended up needing saving, and thankfully that’s what happened when I woke up to find Laura’s work, I managed to save myself, and start the work it takes to try and know myself better, and not let it happen again.

I know this forum is here to help, but there’s so much picking holes, its almost like you're blind to the fact that I knew posting about it here would be one of the best things I could do for him. Its like, "at all costs, find him to be guilty of being selfish, ignore anything which points in the other direction".

I don’t think this is what anart or cyre were trying to do, to find you guilty of selfish actions or anything of the sort, but simply trying to help you see something in yourself that you may not be able to see without the help of others pointing it out. I’ll be honest, I know I’m selfish in some ways, and if I could have people help me to understand it and see it more clearly so I could do something about it, I’d be very grateful. In fact were all selfish and STS to some extent, how many times when each of us wakes up in the morning and opens the bedroom door do we thank our mattress and bed sheets for keeping us warm and comfortable through the night? How many times do we ask the metals in a door handle if they mind being used to open a door? I would guess very few of us live like that, so it means that many of us walk around using things (that to some extent) we take for granted and forget about asking for permission to use, or thank them for letting us use them, and in my book that makes most of us STS. I think (and I may be wrong) the trouble here is that anart, and cyre have different interpretations of what it means to help others in the way you have described, compared to your interpretation of why you help your friend, and that’s why you have sought to defend your actions and felt that they may be nit-picking or trying to label you selfish. I think your friend is lucky to have someone who cares and will help when asked, and what anart and cyre were trying to say is that there is thin line between genuinely helping someone else and helping yourself by helping others.
My reiki teacher had a good way of putting it, “You spend your life always trying to help others, and yet you never help yourself. You weren’t put on this planet to help or heal anyone but yourself, you can help if your asked for help, but only to a certain extent, because ultimately everyone must learn to heal themselves”.
My apologies if this post just adds noise and distracts form the topic at hand, but I thought it may be helpful to hear from someone who has found themselves in a similar situation and had to work to see that what I was doing was serving myself more than others.

 

[Bernhard]

I would spend quite a considerable amount of energy and invested considerable time, lending books, making myself available to talk things over, and printing off interesting things for my friend to read, when I wasn’t always asked to (which as you have said quite rightly, at times abridged my friends free will to work on her own). To some degree I think I was seeking validation of my own “work”, and ideas in my friend, when I should have been just concentrating on my own development and not that of others when they don’t always ask.

I can relate to what you wrote, Appollynon. It was also Anart some time ago on this forum, who helped me to see the STS/STO issue when trying to "help" others. I think when one gets into the work and material as presented on here, one really wants to share this information and get some feedback from close friends besides members of this forum. However, this seeking for validation is clearly a STS issue and I certainly had a pattern of pushing information on people under the pretext of "helping" them when they clearly were not fully asking for it, but I just thought it might help them in their life situation. It happened with the a woman I was dating some time ago and it developed into a kind of "savior-victim" relationship that was anything but healthy. At the beginning she was actually asking for some insights and help, but I did cross some boundaries, not fully realizing where she's at in her life and what else she's dealing with.
When looking at it objectively it was quite a selfish behavior of mine, rather than truly seeing her situation and realizing that she needs to do this on her own, I was trying to change her based on my own beliefs and projections and wanting to have someone I could talk about it all. It was a great lesson in many regards and I'm glad I could identify that "program" of mine.
Having said that, I don't think there is anything wrong with spreading some seeds of awareness, but there is a fine line between that and pushing information on someone without being truly asked.

However, sometimes I also get confused because looking at the state of the world, I'd like to see change and do something about it and something inside me is screaming at everyone "wake up!". So on some level I feel the urge to make people think and act, giving out flyers or writings and do the best I can to initiate change. Question is how to do this without violating others free will, staying focused on STO? On the other hand, can the work itself become selfish, STS, by overly focusing one oneself, kinda like a spiritual Narcissism?