Historical Events Database - History

Re: Historical Events Database

I couldn't attach a book to the post - too big.

Anyway, have a look at this:

http://www.historyextra.com/gallery/book-miracles

and this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-features/10449378/A-miraculous-Renaissance-rediscovery.html

And a paper about Gregory attached.
 

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Re: Historical Events Database

Coming back to an earlier topic: Nennius, Ennius, Roman History vs British history, it seems that Bede quotes Gildas and Nennius is supposed to be based on Gildas' De Excidio.

About Gildas' MSS

The existing manuscripts of the De excidio are all considerably later than the alleged composition of the text itself. The oldest important witnesses to the text are the extensive quotations in the Venerable Bede, which however are sometimes paraphrases, and the glosses on De excidio which are preserved in the late eighth century Leyden and Corpus glossaries… The oldest manuscript of the De excidio is Cottonian MS. Vitellius A. VI, of the eleventh century, damaged by fire in 1731, but used by Mommsen in his edition nevertheless. Other manuscripts include the Avranches public library MS. No. 162 of the twelfth century, the Cambridge University Library MS. Ff. I. 27 of the thirteenth century, and the Cambridge University Library MS. Dd. I. 17 of ca. 1400.

The Cambridge University Library MS. Ff. I. 27 of the thirteenth century, is the recension of a certain Cormac, and differs sharply from the other manuscripts in that it contains a shortened form of various parts and has many textual readings peculiar to itself. Apart from excerpts or quotations in two or three other medieval manuscripts, this is the sum total of the surviving manuscript tradition.

Some scholars think that parts of the manuscript are 6th century and parts are later forgeries. However, textual analysis does not support that; it seems that someone calling themselves “Gildas” (the name is controversial) probably did write it in the first two decades of the 6th century, that is, not around the generally claimed time of 547 AD, but a bit earlier, like between 515 and 530.

It is not, strictly, a work of history; it is a work of preaching and it only references history enough to move the readers to repentance. It is important, however, because it is the only major text to survive from a whole society at the time of crisis, a society that then, effectively, disappeared.

_http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/vortigernhomepage.htm

About Gildas himself

Gildas lived in the fifth, but more likely in the first half of the sixth century. We have but a small clue as to who he really was.

The name ‘Gildas’ is very unusual. There is only one parallel in Roman history is the fifth-century North African rebel Gildo, who has essentially the same name. But though there is no connection between these men (Gildo was a Mauretanian), it is clear that neither men had a Latin name. Wade-Evans suggested a Pictish origin (but see below), others have stressed a Gaelic one. Though often claimed as Irish as in the name 'Gilla goeshyd' (Gilla Stag Shank) or the OI word for servant, armed man (gillae), the Irish version of the name is usually ‘Gillas’, and Columbanus calls him ‘Giltas’.

Sims-Williams ruled out any British origin for the name, but not for the man. He thought, perhaps not so unlikely, that Gildas had good cause to hide his real name. Given his puns on the names of the tyrants (which were not funny at all), he might have treated his own name in the same way. Sims-Wiliams therefore proposed a pseudonym, maybe a cipher, or an anagram for *Sildag. In all, mainly due to his writings about Britain, accepting him as a Briton, though unsubstantiated, is probably the best choice.

Gildas’ birthplace is as enigmatic as his name. Though later hagiography (below) situates him in Strathclyde (Gildas, son of Caw), we have no contemporary information about that.

The ‘monk of Rhuys’ (below) situated him in Arecluta (Dumbarton, in the valley of the Clyde), while some have identified his father Caw with ‘Cau Pritdin’ (Caw of Britain) of the Vita sancti Cadoci. Gildas’ animosity towards the Picts might hint to a northerly region as well. Wade-Evans, however, actually identified Gildas and Caw with Picts! This seems unsubstantiated, though, by De Excidio itself, where Gildas calls Latin ‘nostra lingua’ (DEB 23); This may be normal for Romans, even possible for Britons, but rather impossible for Picts!

As with his birthplace, his birth date is also quite an enigma. Gildas says himself that he was born in the year of ‘the battle of Badon Hill’, a battle that has gained subsequent fame as later tradition and legend associated it with the elusive King Arthur. The debate about the exact date of this battle, which ranges from about 490 to 520, is also connected with the date of the publication of Gildas’ most important work (de Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae), which he wrote in the forty-fourth year after that battle. Gildas is usually taken to have died in 570, but there are other opinions.

Later hagiography put Gildas, who is called both the ‘Historian’ and later ‘Sapiens’ (the Wise) in a northern context. He was to have studied in a monastic school in Wales under St. Illtud (because Maelgwn of Gwynedd seemed to be connected to that school as well), though it is not clear by what he writes about himself, if he was a monk or a member of the secular clergy. His activities ranged from Britain to Ireland, and eventually to Brittany, where he was credited with founding the monastery of St. Gildas de Rhuys, and where he was supposed to have died. There are two fundamental Lives of Gildas:

The first Vita
This ‘Life’, known as the Vita Gildae auctore monacho Ruiensi, which is dated to the eleventh century (though possibly based on ninth-century material), was written by an anonymous ‘monk of Rhuys’ in Brittany.

Gildas was born as one of five sons of Caunus (Caw) in Arecluta (Clydeside, Strathclyde), one of these sons being the warrior Cuillus (Huail), the others (Mailocus, Egreas, and Alleccus) all hermits and ecclesiastics, as was their sister Peteova (Peithien). Gildas studies with St. Illtud, together with Samson and Paul. After these studies, Gildas went to Ireland and later preached in North Britain. Gildas made a bell for St. Brigit. He then returned to Ireland to restore churches (at the request of the Irish king Ainmere, AD 566-569). He then went to Rome and Ravenna, before returning, at the age of 30, to Armorica in the time of Childeric (AD 457-481!). The Life mentions that Gildas wrote the Epistola 10 years after leaving Britain. Gildas died on January 29. Here ends the first Life.

Gildas’ visit to Ireland is confirmed by the Annales Cambriae, which suggest Gildas sailed for Ireland in 565 and died in 570, which is also the year of his death in the Annals of Tigernach. Modern opinion seems to agree that Gildas never left Ireland after his second visit, and that the second part of the Life is about another saint, possibly St. Gueltas of Ruys. This Gueltas would then have been born c. 427, which would be confirmed by an otherwise enigmatic entry in the chronicle of Mont St. Michel:

Aliud chronicon ejusdem montis [S. Michaelis in periculo maris] col. 1323:
Ann. 421- Natus est S. Gildas

This chronicle, published by Migne with the works of Robert de Torigny, unfortunately makes many mistakes, such as dating the death of Cadwallon of Gwynedd in 534 (correct 634), thereby creating confusion with Cadwallon, the father of Maelgwn. But if the entry is correct, does that mean that this ‘Gueltas’, who was apparently born in 421, also wrote the Epistola?

Significant in this Life is chapter 19, which describes Gildas writing the Epistola, or second part of De Excidio. Quoted there are chapters 26 and 27, joined by the word etenim. This is "proof" of the internal connection between the Historia and the Epistola, and thus of the integrity of De Excidio as one manuscript.

The second Vita

This ‘Life’, known as the Vita Gildae auctore Caradoco Lancarbanensi, was written by Caradog of Llancarfan (fl. 1135). Though Caradog was a friend of the pro-Breton Geoffrey of Monmouth, he knows nothing of a connection between Gildas and Brittany.

His Gildas was the son of Nau, but his brothers amount to no less than 23, all warriors. Gildas studies in Gaul, preached in Dyfed in the time of king Trifinus (Tryffin, born c. 430). After Nonnita appears in his congregation (pregnant with St. David) and the unborn saint silences him, Gildas leaves for Ireland. While there, Arthur kills Gildas’ rebellious brother Hueil, which grieves Gildas. Later, Arthur does penance. Gildas spends time with St. Cadog. Gildas visits Rome, retires to an Island (Flatholm), before moving to Glastonbury (Glastonia), where he writes the Historias de Regibus Britanniae. Gildas mediates in a conflict between Arthur and king Melwas, who has captured Arthur’s wife Guennuvar. Gildas later became a hermit, and after his death was buried at Glastonbury Abbey. Here ends the second Life.

This Life is complementary with the first Life. It has nothing on Armorica, includes however Arthurian legend, but confirms the Irish connection. Strangely enough, it places Gildas in Dyfed during the first half of the fifth century in the reign of Tryffin, even when Gildas later admonishes the (elderly) grandson of that king. The story of the pregnant Nonnita originated with Rhhygyvarch (Ricemarchus - Vita beati Dauidis), though he does not name the preacher as Gildas.

The part about the bell is echoed in the ‘Life of St. Illtud’, where Gildas ‘the Historian’ made another bell. Maybe we have here a hint as to Gildas’ original profession? The island part is confirmed by others, one of them (Life of Oudoceus), containing a strange reference to the ‘just and good’ Gildas Sapiens, who nevertheless steals Oudoceus’ building material! The reference to Gildas writing a ‘History of the Kings of Britain’ is puzzling. Bartrum suggests that Caradoc was confused by his friend Geoffrey, who refers to Gildas’ work more than once, but all but the last ones are not found in Gildas at all. Did Geoffrey indeed refer only to an imaginary work, or to an embellished later copy (or even more complete)?

Columbanus

Other references to Gildas are by Columbanus, who is in fact the very first to mention him.

Columbanus wrote between 595 and 600 to pope Gregory the Great about monks becoming hermits, referring that some ‘Vennianus’ (probably St Finnian of Clonard, d. 549) consulted Gildas (Giltas auctor) on the subject. Gildas wrote on the matter of simoniacal bishops, which fits his ideas on the clergy as written in de Excidio and the Fragmentae. The Life of St Finnian of Clonard mentions a similar dispute between Gildas and David, probably about a particular form of monastic life. Gildas criticises those who flee to a stricter discipline, which is very like the subject of his advise to Finnian. Gildas, expressing an intention to enter the monastic life himself, nevertheless later thought David’s rule too severe and strict. In any case, later tradition seems to indicate that Gildas lost the dispute, and went to Ireland. If the above identification is correct, and keeping in mind that Finnian died halfway during the sixth century, Gildas probably entered the monastic life a few years earlier in order to become an internationally recognised expert on the subject. This would date the writing of De Excidio to only a few years after 500, i.e. when based on the orthodox dating scheme.

Bede

Bede, writing in the early eight century, was the one that made Gildas famous a historian, calling him the ‘Historian of the British’. Bede used and adapted much information from Gildas for his history of the fifth and sixth centuries. This shows that during Bede’s time, no other historical material was available for this period. It also meant that Gildas’ reputation, supported as he was by the very good reputation of Bede, has been secured for centuries to come. Even today it is usual for historians to agree with those parts of the DEB that have been used by Bede, even though Gildas’ general reputation as a historian has long since been destroyed.

Gildas secundus – or even more?

It is not strange that confusion has occurred over the centuries about the person or persons of Gildas. Especially a supposed distinction between the first 26 chapters (the so-called Historia) and the rest (called the Epistola), led many authors and editors astray in believing both were written by two different men (below). I have summed up a collection of the various ‘personalities’ which have sprung up over the ages as a result:

• Giltas Auctor – St Columbanus wrote about Gildas (Giltas auctor) in a letter to Gregory the Great, ca. 600. Gildas advised Finnian, who died ca. 550, which would fit the traditional dates of Gildas. The ‘auctor’ could perhaps have been used in the sense of ‘authority on church discipline’.

• Gildas Historicus – This phrase was coined by Bede, who rised Gildas to the position of ‘Historian of the British’. After that, most early references to Gildas are to him as historicus. The Life of St. Illtud mentions a bell manufactured by ‘Gildas the Historian’.

• Gildas Sapiens – After Alcuin called him ‘the wisest of the Britons’, this became the usual name for Gildas. The name was also mentioned by Caradog of Llancarfan, when he described Gildas mediating between Melwas and Arthur, which might have been another possible origin of the epithet.

• St. Gildas – This was the usual term for the later Celtic writers, although there was confusion between a St. Gildas of Rhuys (b. 427) and the historian of the sixth century.

• Gildas Albanius - This name was coined by John Bale (1557) and followed by James Ussher (1639), to distinguish the Gildas he thought described by Caradog of Llancarfan (above, the second Life) from the author of De Excidio, whose Life had been written by the monk of Rhuys. Bale dated Gildas Albanius to AD 425-512.

• Gildas Badonicus – This was Bale’s author of De Excidio, whom he dated to AD 520-570. Wade-Evans used this term to describe his ‘anonymous’ author of the first part of De Excidio (cc. 2-26), whereas the Epistola (cc. 1, 26-110) were written by the original Gildas. Wade-Evans dated the ‘Badonicus’ to 708, being in fact born in the year of the ‘Bellum Badonicus Secundo’, which took place in AD 665, according to the Annales Cambriae.

• Gildas Cambrius – A fictitious character. This ‘Gildas of Wales’, a poet, was invented in the sixteenth century by an Italian author, abridging the work of Geoffrey of Monmouth. He is not connected with the historical Gildas.

• Gildas Quartus – Another fictitious character. He was called ‘quartus’ because Iohannes Pitseus (1619) listed him as the fourth Gildas, describing him as an Irishman, a monk of Bangor and an old man by 860. Usher (1639) placed him in 820. This fictitious character seems to have arisen from the fact that certain copies of the Historia Brittonum were ascribed to Gildas (the 13th-century texts P and Q), amongst others by Henry of Huntingdon. This confusion might have occurred through the mistake by Caradog of Llancarfan, who mentioned that Gildas wrote a Historias de Regibus Britanniae.

• St Gildas of Rhuys – Alfred Anscombe (1893-5) made a distinction between a St Gildas, who according to him wrote the Historia in 499, while the Epistola was written by an anonymous monk in Gwynedd in 655.

Today, opinions no longer differ about the personality of Gildas. It is usually taken for granted that, generally speaking, the DEB was written by one person called Gildas, around the middle of the sixth century.

De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae

Gildas wrote his main work, De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae (‘on the Ruin and Conquest of Britain’) about 10-30 years before Procopius, who wrote around 550 . At that time he was at least forty three years old. But here we immediately stumble on the first problem. When we say ‘wrote’, we can only mean ‘published’, for the text is not unambiguous. Gildas may even have ‘sat on the book’ (or parts of it) for a period of ten years before publishing it, which makes dating it difficult from the start.

Another problem is that the work is entirely anonymous – it was only Bede (d. 735) that ascribed parts or all of it to Gildas. We have seen above what this could mean for the person of Gildas alone; it also led to discussions about forgery, but I will deal with these consequences below.

Neither is the text of the work straightforward. It is a fierce denunciation of the rulers and churchmen of his day, prefaced by a brief explanation of how these evils came to be. This preface is the only surviving narrative history of fifth century Britain, but it was not written as history. Though Gildas was a native of Britain and deals with the period at some length, he was extremely ill-informed about the Roman period. Still he leaves much interesting clues about his times and he may be regarded as the authority for the period before 547-9 (the year of death of Maelgwn Gwynedd in the Annales Cambriae), but in general he gives very little definite information.

The pieces of real information are small enough. The only persons mentioned in the Historia are (Claudius) Caesar, Tiberius, Diocletian, the martyrs Alban, Julius and Aaron, (Magnus) Maximus, Agitius (probably Aetius), Vortigern (when you identify the superbus tyrannus with him) and lastly Ambrosius Aurelianus.

Gildas does not mention any dates, not even any regnal years. There are, however, some tantalizing indicators, such as the rebellion of Maximus (383-388), the so-called ‘Rescript of Honorius’ (410), the letter to Aetius (446), the siege of Badon Hill (?) and the rules of the British kings. But apart from Maximus, none of these is securely datable. The identification of the ‘Rescript’ is very shaky, if not impossible. The identification of Gildas’ Agitio with Aetius is not secure, and even when it was that, we cannot be sure of the year (as it could to any time during or after 446). The dating of Badon is next to impossible, and the rules of the British kings rests but on shaky seventh-century genealogical evidence. Therefore, the DEB does not constitute a history, and eminent historians like Charles Oman declared the narrative ‘nonsense’.

The narrative is unclear because it was written from oral memory. The experience of our own age or any other defines the limits of oral memory. So it was with Gildas. In youth he knew older men who had lived through the wars, but few who were adult before they began. Though we need not have any hesitation in accepting e.g. his testimony of the five kings reigning in his day, I would not blindly accept what he has to say about their character. We should not mistake Gildas for a modern historian who is giving us an unbiased report of history, nor was he writing an objective chronicle of his times.

Nevertheless, Gildas is our most important source for the history of Britain and the organization of the ‘Celtic church’ during the fifth and early sixth centuries.

Gildas had a very substantial political agenda and he wrote his book accordingly. He criticises not only the clerics for bad habits, but more so, the British kings. He attacks them for their character flaws, but also for their subjugation to an unnamed ruler (but clearly not a British Christian), who clearly received taxes and homage from all these kings. One of the purposes of his book seems to have been a rallying-call to end this. As a result of this dangerous political message, Gildas writes in metaphors. Names are changed (‘punned’), persons and events are translated into biblical examples, so that no persecutor could prove any slander or political crimes within his writings. Our problem is how far we go in interpreting these metaphors; so are clear, others very obscure, so that any opinion about this process must be based upon personal conviction only.

What we are sure about is which sources Gildas used. From his seemingly anachronistic prose style, Gildas shows that he was a man with a classical education, which must have been very rare at that date.

Gildas was familiar which most of the books of the bible, both the older Vetus Latina version as well as the newer Vulgate version from Jerome. He used works by Vergil (Aeneid), Rufinus, Orosius, Sulpicius Severus, John Cassian and Prudentius. These authors, together with his perfect grammar and syntax (no vulgarisms), show the high quality of his classical education from what could hardly have been anything other than a British school. His scheme was Christian, however, and not classical. The text shows his enormous dependence on the bible and on biblical themes.

The contents

DEB consists of 110 chapters, arranged accordingly:

• Chapter 1: General preface, vindication and motives.
• Chapters 2-26: The Historia:
• Chapter 2 is a table of contents, chapters 3-26 are a selective and rhetorical description of British history from the Roman conquest to the events of Gildas’ own time. Some think this in fact part of the introduction;
• Chapters 3-12: History of Britain, from the Roman conquest to the fourth century;
• Chapter 13: Revolt of Magnus Maximus;
• Chapters 14-19: Britain invaded, Roman interventions, building of the walls;
• Chapters 20-21: Appeal to Agitius, famine, disasters, British counteroffensive, period of luxury;
• Chapters 22-24: New invasions, Superbus Tyrannus, invitation to the Saxons, their rebellion, destruction of urban life;
• Chapters 25-26: Reaction under Ambrosius Aurelianus, wars until Badonis Mons, Gildas' lifetime, 44 years until the time of writing.
• Chapters 27-110: The Epistola:
• Chapters 27-36: Denunciation of five British kings, probably contemporary with Gildas: Constantius, Aurelius Caninus, Vortiporus, Cuneglasus and Maglocunus;
• Chapters 37-63: Quotations from the Scriptures denouncing wicked princes.
• Chapters 64-5: transition.
• Chapters 66-110: Attack on the British clergy:
• Chapters 66-8: An opening diatribe against the sacerdotes, against the wicked and reprobate priests, with much rhetoric paralleling c. 27;
• Chapters 69-75: Against good and chaste priests, who nevertheless are not zealous enough;
• Chapters 76-105: Quotations from the Scriptures denouncing unworthy and lazy priests;
• Chapters 106-7: Quotations from Scriptural reading from an ancient British ordination rite.
• Chapters 108-10: Conclusion to the second section.

Forgery

It has been argued for a long time that the DEB was not one single document, or even a forgery, mostly dating it to the seventh century. As early as the later middle ages authors such as John Bale (1557) had separated the Historia from the Epistola, thinking that it must have been written by two different authors. James Ussher took this up, and declared (1639) that there were two authors, one datable to the fifth century and the second to the sixth (above). Especially the nineteenth century gave rise to a new revisionism that sprang up in the wake of ‘modern’ Christian theological debate. Authors interpreted Gildas’ anti-Roman (Catholic) criticism as anachronistic or even protestant (!)

• Peter Roberts (1811) found the DEB too critical of the Celts or the Celtic church to be authentic. He proposed that it was a deliberate forgery; propaganda written by a Latin author to encourage the English, not to dishearten the Welsh. Roberts did, however, think of it as a whole, and he discarded the printed version of Gale (1691), which separated the Historia from the Epistola between chapters 26 and 27, as he thought both were forged by the same man. He dated it to the seventh century on the grounds of resembling the work of Aldhelm of Malmesbury.

• Thomas Wright (1842) agreed to this dating and the authorship of Aldhelm.

• Alfred Anscombe (1893-5) raised the issue again of the unity of the text. Both the editions of Gale and Stevenson (1838) had separated the text in two parts, but still presented it as written by one author; Anscombe doubted this. He made a distinction between a St Gildas, who according to him wrote the Historia in 499, while the Epistola was written by an anonymous monk in Gwynedd in 655, on the grounds of supposed internal evidence.

• Arthur W. Wade-Evans (1904-52) was a disciple of Anscombe. Wade-Evans published many articles on the subject of early British history ‘on account of his sufferings as a ‘Kelt’ at the hands of the ‘Teutons’ as a young Welshman at Oxford. It never ceases to amaze me what bullying can lead to. The current academic feelings at Oxford at the time, that the Germans were the only productive race ever, and that England was more German than Germany, must have sourly wounded him as well.

Wade-Evans dated the Epistola to 502 or earlier, and attributed it to Gildas Sapiens. The Historia, however, he dated to much later. He called it the Excidium Britanniae, or later the De excidio Britanniae, but he meant chapters 2-26, as did others before him. The author was supposedly unknown, but he later called this ‘anonymous’ Auctor Badonicus, or later Gildas Badonicus. Wade-Evans found numerous anachronisms (at least he though so), such as the migration into Wales, anointing of kings and some others. He also combined a passage about a prophecy about 150 years of raiding with that of the 44-years since the siege of Badon. Gildas wrote 150 + 43 (and one month) = 193 years after the Adventus Saxonum.

But when was that? Wade-Evans interpreted the ‘Siege of Badon’ as the battle mentioned in the Annales Cambriae under year 221 (A.D. 665): Bellum Badonis secundo. Morcant moritur. This ‘proved’ to wade-Evans that Gildas Badonicus had been writing in 708, 43 years after the battle of Badon in 665, and that the Adventus Saxonum had taken place in 514, which was, conveniently enough, the landing of Cerdic.

Wade-Evans later wrote that Gildas Badonicus had lived at Glastonbury.

• Père Grosjean (1946-69) attributed the forgery of DEB first to Aldhelm of Malmesbury (7th-8th century), but later to the bishops Daniel of Winchester and Nothelm of Canterbury (8th century).

Conclusion

Today, the matter is still under discussion. Is DEB one text? Though it has been suggested that it consisted of two parts, the Historia (cc. 2-26) and the Epistola (cc. 1, 27-110), no conclusive arguments have proven that these were if fact written by two diffrent authors.

By AD 709, Aldhelm of Malmesbury knew both parts, while the Leyden Glossary (ca. 790-800) appears to be derived from a manuscript of the whole text. Though by far the most (if not all) historians accept the DEB as an authentic product of the sixth century, the possibility that some of the material (and most likely, if at all, from chapters 2-26) was interpolated at a later date, most probably during the seventh century, before Bede used it as a source. But the text shows no linguistical differences between both parts. If the DEB had been forged, however, the forger must have been diabolically clever; not only did he write in a perfect rhetorical Latin which was unusual for Gildas’ age, but he wrote an anti-English piece, even though he must have been English or pro-English himself! I feel this theory needs too many assumptions and should be rejected.

Sources:

• Bachrach, Bernard S. (1988): Gildas, Vortigern and Constitutionality in Sub-Roman Britain, in: Nottingham Mediaeval Studies 32, 1988, pp. 126-140.*
• Bartrum, P.C. (1966): Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts, (Cardiff).*
• Bartrum, P.C. (1993): A Welsh Classical Dictionary, (Cardiff).*
• Caradoc of Llangarfan: The Life of Gildas, ed. Hugh Williams, translator, in: Two Lives of Gildas by a monk of Ruys and Caradoc of Llancarfan, Cymmrodorion Record Series, 1899. Facsimilie reprint by Llanerch Publishers, (Felinfach 1990), at: http://members.aol.com/michellezi/translations/LifeofGildas.html
• Dark, Kenneth R. (1994): Civitas to Kingdom, British Political Continuity 300-800, Studies in the Early History of Britain, (Leicester).*
• Dumville, David N. (1984): Gildas and Maelgwn: problems of dating, in: Lapidge and Dumville, Gildas: New Approaches, pp. 51-60.*
• Dumville, David N. (1984a): The chronology of De Excidio Britanniae, Book 1, in: Lapidge and Dumville, Gildas: New Approaches, pp. 61-84.*
• Dumville, David N. (1984b): Gildas and Uinniau, in: Lapidge and Dumville, Gildas: New Approaches, pp. 207-214.*
• Gildas: The Ruin of Britain and other works, Latin and trans. M. Winterbottom, History from the Sources 7, (Old Woking 1978).*
• Gildas: De Excidio Brittonum, trans. John Allan Giles, in: Six Old English Chronicles, of which two are now first translated from the monkish Latin originals (London, George Bell and Sons, 1891), full text (English) at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/gildas-full.html.
• Gildas: The de excidio Britonum (The Ruin of Britain): ed. and Latin Keith Matthews (2000), based on Mommsen's version, at: http://www.kmatthews.org.uk/history/gildas/frames.html
• Jones, Michael E. (1996): The End of Roman Britain, (Cornell).*
• Morris, John (1973): The Age of Arthur, a History of the British Isles from 350 to 650, (London repr. 1989).*
• O'Sullivan, Thomas D. (1978): The De Excidio of Gildas, its Authenticity and Date, Columba studies in the Classical Tradition 7, (Leiden).*
• Sims-Williams, P. (1983): Gildas and the Anglo-Saxons, in: Cambridge Medieval Celtic Studies 6, pp. 1-30.*
• Sims-Williams, P. (1984): Gildas and vernacular poetry, in: Lapidge and Dumville, Gildas: New Approaches, pp. 169-190.*
• Snyder, Christopher A. (1998): An Age of Tyrants, Britain and Britons AD 400-600, (Stroud).*
• Thompson, E.A. (1979): Gildas and the History of Britain, in: Britannia 10, pp. 203-226.*
• Winterbottom, M. (1978):The Ruin of Britain and other works, History from the Sources 7, (Old Woking).*
• Wood, Ian N. (1984): The End of Roman Britain: Continental Evidence and Parallels, in: Lapidge and Dumville, Gildas: New Approaches, pp. 1-26.*

_http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artsou/gildwhen.htm
When did Gildas Write?

Between several continental fifth-century historians and Bede in the eight century, Gildas is the single major source for events in Britain during the fifth and sixth centuries. Though distorted and often misinformed, Gildas sheds at least some light on Britain in the Dark Ages, which was then in the process of changing from a Roman province into a myriad of English and Welsh kingdoms. Gildas may even have been the only one writing a history (although we can hardly call him a historian) for that period, for no other source is available to us. No one before Bede uses Gildas, no one even mentions a ‘lost source’ that could have rivalled Gildas.

...we can only compare the internal evidence of the text with events which are know from history. The orthodox date for DEB, a date which can be found in almost every standard textbook and work of reference down to the present time is Sir Frank Stenton’s date of “a little before the year 547”. This article examines the evidence for this ‘orthodox’ date, why it was chosen and whether this was valid.

...the total lack of reference to the Paschal Controversy, that hit Britain simultaneously with the continent in AD 600. This may be confirmed by the reference to Gildas in a letter by St Columbanus to the Pope in AD 595,... The lower limit is indicated by silence about any sign of a flourishing Church in Ireland and the notice that monasticism in Britain was still very limited, which means that DEB was written probably before 540. Even more so Gildas’ stress of his Romanitas and that of his ‘fellow-citizens’ suggests as early a date as possible....

Plague

It has become usual for scholars to date DEB as close as possible to Maglocunus’s death, which is conventionally dated to AD 547. This date is provided by the Annales Cambrae (Welsh Annals, c. AD 955):

Annales Cambriae, annus ciii (AD 547)
Mortalitas magna, in qua pausat Mailcun rex Guenedotae

That Maglocunus is meant here is beyond doubt, but the year is not. However, the entry itself is suspect. It was almost certainly copied from the earlier Chronicle of Ireland, which originally mentioned a list of Leinster names (not Maglocunus). The Welsh copyist may have had authority to substitute these names, but this is unknown to us. If not, the whole entry is false and any discussion bound to be useless.

However, should we accept (but on no real basis) that the Welsh copyist indeed had access to reliable information, we can concentrate on the year itself. If we compare it with the date for the battle of Badon (AD 516), we would end up with a publishing-date for DEB in AD 560, which is 13 years too late (below, Badon). One of the years must be wrong, but which?

The Mortalitas magna is usually seen as the ‘Great Plague of Justinian’, which started in the east in AD 542, and which could easily have reached Britain by AD 547. But how sure are we that Maglocunus indeed died in that plague?

Yellow fever

There is a problem, because Procopius (ca. 550) mentions this plague as a bubonic plague, {wrong!} whereas (much) later tradition such as Welsh vernacular texts mention only a ‘Yellow Pestilence’ (Vad Velen), which is definitely different from the bubonic version. {Nobody knows what the Plague of Justinian was; just a lot of late assumptions. Plus, from the various descriptions of it, there were several "types".} Maglocunus, cursed by Taliesin the poet, fled to a church in Rhos, were he was followed by Vad Velen. The doomed king peeped through the keyhole, saw the monster and died. The Story of Taliesin describes it as a curse:

Mabinogion, Hanes Taliesin
A most strange creature will come
From the sea marsh of Rhianedd,
As a punishment of iniquity,
On Maelgwn Gwynedd;
His hair and his teeth,
And his eyes being as gold;
And this will bring destruction
On Maelgwn Gwynedd

Alas, all references of this Vad Velen, come to us through Edward Williams, a.k.a. Iolo Morganwg (1745-1820), who, according to Ifor Williams, was "the greatest forger of Welsh documents ever known. The damage that man has done! Maybe he was mad - let us be charitable" (..).

Early MSS of the Mabinogion do not include these references to Vad Velen, but there are other sources that do. One is the Vita Teiliavi (Life of St.Teilo, 12th century), which confirms the death of Maelgwn in a Pestis Flava, while a second MS of the Annales Cambriae mentions Hir hun Wailgun en llis Rhos (‘The long sleep of Maelgwn in the court of Rhos’). To sum up, we have no evidence at all that Maglocunus died of the bubonic plague, but only that he might have died in a pestilence that turn victims yellow. If not a plague, what could this disease be?

The ‘Yellow Pestilence’ is recorded for Ireland in the sixth century as the Cron Chonaill, which was mentioned by the Annals of Ulster for 548, which would fit the entry concerning Maglocunus. This disease was no plague, but might best be identified with ‘relapsing fever’, which occurs often together with a plague. Relapsing fever was common in Ireland together with famine, and its modern name is still fiabhras buidhe (yellow fever). And if we consider that famine fever can spread from people lacking food to those with plenty of it (as it spreads through lice), we might have found a good candidate for the death of the king of Gwynedd.

{All of this seems to be useless speculation because of the mention of "yellow".}

Which leaves us with a circular argument: We cannot prove that Maglocunus died in AD 547, nor that he died of plague, so his death may not have been confirmed by the Great Plague of Justinian in 542 at all. The date of 547-8 may be confirmed by Irish annals, but they speak only of Yellow Fever, while the Annales Cambriae speak of plague. Which leaves us with an unconfirmed date that is provided only by an untrustworthy source. With these attempts to date Maglocunus and the British kings finalized, we must come to the conclusion that it is not possible to date DEB to a few years before 547, for the simple reason that it is not possible to date the death of Maglocunus/Maelgwn Gwynedd to that year.

Actually, when you consider the content of DEB, the Plague of Justinian fits.

The meaning of the ’44 Years’

The next possibility to date DEB is by following up the lead of the Quadragesimus Quartus Annus (44th year) that seem to have to be placed between Badon and the time of writing the DEB. The Badonic passage of DEB, on which this period is based, reads as follows:

DEB 26
Ex eo tempore nunc cives, nunc hostes, vincebant…usque ad annum odsessionis Badonici montis, novissimaque ferme de furceferis non minimae stragis, quique quadragesimus quartus ut novi orditur annus, mense iam uno emenso, qui et meae nativitatis est.

The usual translation would be:

After this, sometimes our countrymen, sometimes the enemy, won the field, … until the year of the siege of Badon hill, when took place also almost the last, though not the least slaughter of our cruel enemy, which was (as I am sure) forty-four years and one month, and also the time of my own nativity.

44 Years since Badon and Birth

It is widely believed that Gildas tells us here that he was born in the same year of the siege of the hill at Badon, and that he is now writing in the second month of the forty-fourth year since then. However, this opinion is based solely on the translation by Theodor Mommsen in his authoritative edition of DEB:

The year of the siege of mons Badonicus … which also is the year [back] from that which [at present] begins, one month already elapsed, which too is [that] of my birth.

Mommsen could only arrive at this translation by emendating the words ut novi with est ab eo qui. This change has no basis in the text and has been criticised accordingly. Notwithstanding that criticism, the explanation that Gildas seems to have been writing in the first month of the 44th year after both Badon and his own birth, has been accepted widely. However, there are several partisans of other interpretations.

So, if the date of DEB is as close as possible to Maglocunus’s death, which is thought to have been 547, then 44 years earlier would have been 503.

Sooo... take another look at the chronicle table simplified and note all the wild stuff that was going on in the years preceding and including 503, and after. If things were rocking and rolling in the Roman East, no doubt stuff was going on in Britain and that was prompting a lot of crazy behavior and activity. And then, the 44 years after were no picnic either.

A good question to ask would be: how did Gildas get his education considering the turmoil of the times?

Anyway, continuing

44 Years since the Adventus Saxonum

The first of these is none other than the famous English monk Bede, who was the first to mention Gildas and used his work extensively. Bede paraphrased the passage of the Badonic siege:

Bede, Historia Ecclesiastica, Book 1, chapter 16
From that day, sometimes the natives, and sometimes their enemies, prevailed, till the year of the siege of Badon hill, when they made no small slaughter of those invaders, about forty-four years after their arrival in Britain.

This is much clearer and more specific, but the interpretation is totally different. Bede saw 44 years between Badon and the Adventus Saxonum, the arrival of the Saxons in Britain!

J.A. Giles turned this around, and based his edition of DEB on this interpretation:

After this, sometimes our countrymen, sometimes the enemy, won the field, to the end that our Lord might this land try after his accustomed manner these his Israelites, whether they loved him or not, until the year of the siege of Bath-hill, when took place also the last almost, though not the least slaughter of our cruel foes, which was (as I am sure) forty-four years and one month after the landing of the Saxons, and also the time of my own nativity
.

(This edition of Gildas’ work is now very common on the internet, being the only e-text without copyright, so let this be a warning to all users: this is not the authentic version of Gildas!)

Several later authors have followed Bede’s lead. De la Borderie used Bede’s date for the Adventus (AD 449) and dated Badon to AD 493.

Charles Plummer went one step further, he added the ‘traditional’ 44 years and added the publication of DEB to 449+44=493+44=AD 537! According to him, this did fit with the traditional dating (which can’t be denied) and that both periods were of the same length was merely coincidence. But since Bede’s ‘44’ was his interpretation of Gildas’ ‘44’, this explanation must be rejected.

{But it takes us to the possible/probable time of the Dust Veil Event/Comet Impact/Explosion. So maybe it's not so crazy?}

G.H. Wheeler agreed that the ’44 years’ started with an event that signified the coming of the English, but he dated it to the last year when dating by consuls ceased, AD 473. The only argument in its favour is that this dates Badon to AD 516, which corresponds with the year assigned by the Annales Cambriae, whose unreliability we have already discussed above.

C.E. Stevens dated this year to the more agreeable year of AD 441-2, which is reported in the Gallic Chronicles as the year of the Saxon takeover. Badon would then take place in AD 486.

44 Years since Ambrosius

Other authors, though following Bede in placing Badon not at the start, but rather at the end of a period of 44 years, assign the start of this period to the actions of Ambrosius. The logic to them was that the period described by Gildas lay between to great victories, that of the first (by Ambrosius) and the greatest (by Arthur). Some did not hesitate to add another 44 years for the publication, a futile attempt as we have seen above. Not so futile, however, was the suggestion that Gildas, when writing about the year of his birth, actually means the victory of Ambrosius! Of course it would become clear that Gildas, reckoning by the traditional dating, would have reached the age of 94 years in all…

But let us remain with the victory of Ambrosius. Several authors based this interpretation on Gildas’ assurance in the remainder of chapter 26, where he continues that the wars against the Saxons have ceased a generation since:

DEB, 26
And yet neither to this day are the cities of our country inhabited as before, but being forsaken and overthrown, still lie desolate; our foreign wars having ceased, but our civil troubles still remaining. For as well the remembrance of such a terrible desolation of the island, as also of the unexpected recovery of the same, remained in the minds of those who were eyewitnesses of the wonderful events of both, and in regard thereof, kings, public magistrates, and private persons, with priests and clergymen, did all and every one of them live orderly according to their several vocations. But when these had departed out of this world, and a new race succeeded, who were ignorant of this troublesome time, and had only experience of the present prosperity

Especially the reference to a new generation has inspired authors more than the vague ex eo tempore....

Ian Wood had a very interesting solution, in which he separated Badon from the 44 years. He thought the word Nouissimae could hardly describe an event 44 years back, and that the mentioning of mense uno emenso (‘one month has already passed’) meant something far more specific. Wood concluded that Gildas hints that his birth had been in the same year as Ambrosius’ victory, which happened 44 years earlier, and that Badon has happened only a month before he wrote DEB! This would fit the information that Ambrosius’ grandchildren were conspicuous in Gildas’ day. It would also agree with Bede, who would then have dated the Adventus to just before the victory of Ambrosius....



O’Sullivan, writing a little before Wood, came to a similar solution. He was convinced that Gildas referred to a generation which had witnessed the Saxon revolt as well as the recovery under Ambrosius, and was now dead. Consequently, the 44 years should refer to an earlier event, possibly Ambrosius’ victory. The siege of Badon, however, had taken place in our time (DEB, c.2), which could only have been two or three decades, no more. This differs from Wood’s solution of one month (which O’Sullivan does not specify), but O’Sullivan explains those few decades by stressing Gildas’ referral to a generation that had grown up in peace. This peace would have come after Badon, which consequently must have taken place a few decades before the writing of DEB. It also means that Gildas was born in the same year as Badon (hence his mentioning the battle), not 44 years before. O’Sullivan proposes that Gildas wrote the work when he was still young, about 25 or thirty, and then had thought ten years about it, as he tells us (DEB, c.1). Thus Gildas would have been rather young (15 to 20) when he wrote this part of DEB (the Historia), whereas the Epistola was written at a more mature age. Dating Ambrosius’ victory to 450x460, Badon would have been ca. AD 500, and DEB ca. AD 520-30, which also fits the floruit of the British kings....

I tend to agree with this solution. Though the passage seems clear, and Gildas seems to tell us that he was born in the same year as the siege of Badon, and that 43 years and 1 month have already passed, this is not the correct, straightforward translation, which Mommsen himself proved when he amended the text of the passage. Many authors have based an (Arthurian) ‘period of peace, lasting 44 years’ upon this passage, fruitlessly seeking it in the archaeological record.

But Gildas clearly tells us something else. The Saxons had revolted, while the nation had only just been saved by Ambrosius, until the Saxons were decisively beaten at Badon, 44 years after their arrival, and Gildas had been born. Twenty-five to thirty years later, all those who had witnessed the original revolt had died, but the siege of Badon could still be described as in our times. He wrote DEB at a time when he was old enough to be distressed by the low morals of his countrymen. This solution is neither perfect nor unassailable, neither is it the interpretation followed by most authors. But I believe this usual solution imperfect and based on a flawed translation, and closely linked with an impossible dating of Maglocunus’s death (above). However, it does not exclude the years found for the traditional dating, if we can date the siege of Badon....

Gildas, when writing 25-30 years after a Badon that took place in AD 516 (as supplied by the same Annales), could very well have been writing to a living Maglocunus in AD 541-46! And if Badon took place c. 500, which is most popular today (which means that the Annales are indeed wrong for both dates), Gildas would have been writing to admonish a very living Maglocunus in Ad 525-30,...

Baring-Gould and Fisher pointed to a gap in the Saxon ‘invasions’ between AD 519 and 552, a gap of about a generation which they assigned to the defeat of the Gewissae (later West Saxons) of Hampshire at Badon, c. AD 520. To square this with the Annales, they changed year 1 of these annals from the conventional AD 445 to 449. This use of the Chronicle has long since been superseded, as the sources cannot be used in such a way. ...

{This gap was probably due to cometary disasters...}

Myres noted that nothing is known from the kingdom of Kent for half a century after AD 491. Worse for Sussex which, despite Bede’s assertion that its king Aelle was the first ‘Bretwalda’ (usually interpreted as the ruler of all Britain), does not know his successors for more than two centuries. The next entry is only in AD 547, the accession of Ida of Bernicia. Apart from this , there are only the primitive annals of Wessex, which are very complicated to decipher.

At first glance, it seems that a (British-named) king called Cerdic landed in Hampshire, after which the dynasty fought itself northwards. But modern opinion now agrees upon an anonymous genesis for the West Saxons (or the Gewissae as they called themselves) in the upper Thames region around Dorchester-on-Thames. Archaeology has dated their remains back to the Late Roman period, long before any conventional Adventus. The first kings from this dynasty are Ceawlin (ASC: AD 560-593) and his direct descendants. He and his sons fought in this region, but only in the seventh century did they conquer Hampshire, which until then had been a Jutish kingdom or province, closely associated to Kent. It is small wonder that the entries of the West Saxon annals resemble those of Kent, and scholars now believe that the Kentish/Jutish ‘history’ (skimpy as it was), was usurped by the conquering Gewissae.

{Saxon auxiliaries of the Roman army were posted in Britain and after the withdrawal of Rome, they probably remained and after the disasters and pestilence, they were able to organize themselves and take over.

When you read DEB and the story of the "Saxon Invasion", it only takes a few word substitutions to understand that it was a barrage of flaming comets, not "three ships of Saxons." }


...
Badon and the continent
Riothamus has recently been made famous by Geoffrey Ashe, who championed an identification of this commander with the legendary Arthur, an identification that was made long ago by Geoffrey of Monmouth, who ‘borrowed’ the historical campaign of Riothamus, and embellished it to a conquest by Arthur.

Riothamus is known from the writings of Sidonius Appolinaris (letters), Jordanes (history of the Goths) and Gregory of Tours (history of the Franks) to have supported the Franks and the Romans of Gaul in a campaign against the Visigothic forces of Euric during the reign of Anthemius (AD 467-72), probably ca. AD 469. But he was betrayed, and a defeat ends his historical appearance. Either Riothamus’ ‘Britons’ were settlers, but looking at the numbers, I would opt for an army from Britain (but were all of these soldiers really British?). If this is correct, the above date of AD 571-100 = AD 471 must seem really attractive, at least when we assume that Badon must have come before the defeat. It would seem possible that the British, after their crushing victory at Badon, were confident enough to re-enter continental politics again (to their demise). The reader must of course make up her or his own mind, but it might seem a little too early for Arthur, whereas Gildas (born in AD 469, or even in AD 425: see the Gildas of Mont Saint Michel!) would have written DEB in AD 469 or AD 500- the floruits of all British kings (AD 510-30) are somewhat later.

The so-called ‘back-migration’ may offer more support. Rudolf of Fulda, writing before AD 865, wrote in his Translatio sancti Alexandri about Saxons migrating from Britain to the continent in AD 531. Though the information is very vague, it seems to find an echo with Procopius (ca. AD 550), who reported accounts from a Frankish mission to Constantinople in AD 553, who told of all kinds of people migrating from Britain to the continent. Though the distance and language would account for the strangeness of the reports, it might signify British migrations and Saxon re-migration to Gaul in the late 520s and early 530s. But that would be too late for Badon as well!

Conclusion

The ‘orthodox’ date of shortly before AD 547 is, as we have seen, without any real foundation. There are but a few indications of dating the writing of DEB, which are the five British kings, the period of 44 years between some event and writing the manuscript and the battle of Badon.

As we have seen, the floruits of the five kings, though based on late evidence, should preferably be assigned to the first decades of the sixth century, rather than the orthodox middle. Especially the reign and death of Maelgwn Gwynedd, the anchor point of the orthodox dating scheme, can no longer be seen as terminating in AD 547. This means that DEB was probably written a generation earlier than usually thought.

Likewise, the traditional interpretation of the 44 years between Badon and the writing of DEB should be rejected. Gildas seems to indicate that he wrote 44 years after probably the victory of Ambrosius over the Saxon invaders, yet after the battle of Badon, which happened within living memory of a generation that had grown up in peace. This means that DEB was probably written between AD 515-20, which is confirmed the floruits found for the five kings.

Lastly, dating the siege of Badon has been impossible, since references from the earlier sources fail or are unsupported. However, the indications support a date ca. AD 500, which would fit the other evidence. Gildas, then, wrote his De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae most probably ca. AD 515-520.

And there you see how lack of knowledge of the environmental disasters of the time and the need of the Church to cover these things up, leads to a nowhere conclusion when followed by purely academic methods.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Came across a couple interesting items last night:

When Marcus Aurelius's army returned from campaigning in the East in AD 165, it brought back a disease, probably smallpox, which raged pandemically for twenty-five years, and may have carried off as many as six million people, which was perhaps a tenth of the population of the empire. Marcus Aurelius himself probably died of it.

I don't think smallpox had ever manifested at that time. I understand that it was a later phenomenon AFTER the Black Death began to disappear.

And:

Whenever plague devastated the population, there was no dignity in the burial accorded to the poor. A pit one hundred and sixty feet long, one hundred feet wide, and thirty feet deep, containing an estimated twenty-four thousand corpses from the early imperial period, was discovered outside Rome in 1876; when it was opened, the stench was still intolerable.

Now, wait a minute. If that dates to the early Imperial Period, that's at least 1800 years at the time of excavation ... how could such a grave still have a stench? Or do I not know anything about it?

What I think we need is an online form thing where we can start combing through the ancient texts and finding certain types of data and entering it according to the year that has been assigned to it. We could have a column for dates, and several columns for the kinds of events that we are looking for and then could produce graphs of them that we might try to match to ice core spikes or something. But it would take a number of people to get everything covered.

What do ya'll think?
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Laura said:
What I think we need is an online form thing where we can start combing through the ancient texts and finding certain types of data and entering it according to the year that has been assigned to it. We could have a column for dates, and several columns for the kinds of events that we are looking for and then could produce graphs of them that we might try to match to ice core spikes or something. But it would take a number of people to get everything covered.

What do ya'll think?

I think that's a great idea. I love that kind of research.

P.S. - I've got the books you sent. Alots to read.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadius Sky said:
Laura said:
What I think we need is an online form thing where we can start combing through the ancient texts and finding certain types of data and entering it according to the year that has been assigned to it. We could have a column for dates, and several columns for the kinds of events that we are looking for and then could produce graphs of them that we might try to match to ice core spikes or something. But it would take a number of people to get everything covered.

What do ya'll think?

I think that's a great idea. I love that kind of research.

P.S. - I've got the books you sent. Alots to read.

Yeah, agreed, I think it's a great idea too. Still need to get some things sorted out with all the reading material, and I'll PM to get those books in an email too. MAN, there's so much to read! It is SO intriguing reading the latest posts on this thread the last couple of days and trying to follow and sort out all the clues. This is a REAL history lesson, and it hasn't been "boring" at all - how history should be taught/done.

And about the smallpox issue, I too had read in our various material a couple of years ago that it appeared on the scene as the "Black Death" was disappearing from the last episodes. I remember some comment/speculation that it may have even been a mutation of the Black Death agent (VERY likely to have been viral rather than bacterial, as we've seen) that brought about the appearance of smallpox.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadius Sky said:
Laura said:
What I think we need is an online form thing where we can start combing through the ancient texts and finding certain types of data and entering it according to the year that has been assigned to it. We could have a column for dates, and several columns for the kinds of events that we are looking for and then could produce graphs of them that we might try to match to ice core spikes or something. But it would take a number of people to get everything covered.

What do ya'll think?

I think that's a great idea. I love that kind of research.

P.S. - I've got the books you sent. Alots to read.

I think that's also a great idea. If we can pull together all the information in a structured manner we could then use it to compare the various sets of data. It would be good to have a column for dates, one for the source, one for the type of event, one describing the event and possibly one for the location too. This would allow to then filter the data and produce graphs according to needs. I can create a spreadsheet and add the information from the file Laura attached in a previous post "chronicle-table-simplified" as a first draft. Thoughts?
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Eboard10 said:
I think that's also a great idea. If we can pull together all the information in a structured manner we could then use it to compare the various sets of data. It would be good to have a column for dates, one for the source, one for the type of event, one describing the event and possibly one for the location too. This would allow to then filter the data and produce graphs according to needs. I can create a spreadsheet and add the information from the file Laura attached in a previous post "chronicle-table-simplified" as a first draft. Thoughts?

Well, it needs to be figured out and I'm not sure that I have the mathematical brain to do it, but here is what I have noticed that makes me want to organize things.

The types of data:
environmental
unusual weather which can be drought, floods, early spring followed by freezing, prolonged winters, extremely cold winters, unusual warmth in winter that causes plants to bud out and are then killed by sudden cold late in the season. So maybe this could be coded as to exactly what type of event it is?

Then: atmospheric
comets, "swords or shields" in the sky, (there are varying descriptions of this type), flashes of light, pillars of light, sky on fire, glow in the sky that persists, unusual darkness, that sort of thing. Again, they could be divided up and assigned a code and if, in the course of digging, a new type of thing is encountered, it could be given a code.

Then, geological: earthquakes, sinkholes, rivers overflowing, tsunamis, etc.

Question is: where to put sounds? As atmospheric? (I don't like that, confuses comets, meteors, etc) or with geological, assuming that such sounds are related to geological processes. OR do we have a separate category for sounds altogether? That isn't appealing.

One thing that I've noted is that very often, possibly stupendous events appear to have been transformed into "battles". What if a "battle" was actually a cometary event? Like the absolute destruction of an army such as the Battle of Arausio, about which I am VERY suspicious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arausio and the Battle of Actium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Actium

So, maybe important battles should be included? Or maybe all battles that are encountered? Location, date, death count if given. Obviously, different sources give different death counts and that may be revealing. And if you see similar battles with similar death counts given for the same place, but in different years, you may suspect a doublet.

Then, famines and epidemics. Should famines be included with weather, or separate since they are the effect of weather on human beings? Maybe famines, epidemics and battles should all be under one main category as "effects on society"? We might find multiple correlations there such as the deaths from a famine or an epidemic being represented as a battle. Or battles, famines, epidemics piling correlating to environmental and atmospheric and geological events. Perhaps we should include rebellions also, as a separate form of "battle."

Obviously, dates (as given though we don't take them as truth), location, source, date that source is writing. AND, if the same event seems to be described by different sources, we need to include it and place a code that it appears to be a corroborating report OR derived from the previous source.

So that is just in general the type of stuff I've encountered again and again and the questions that have come up in my mind.

What would be nice would be a recording system with drop down menus for the various options, a box for text to describe the event, but which would only show if you ask for it, so that the table could be clean and neat.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

You gave a lot to work with.

We can use these data as columns:

1) Environmental
2) Atmospheric
3) Geological
4) Sound (as fourth column since it could be related to the previous three data)
5) "Cometary Battle"?
6) Notable Battle (Human) with death count, etc.
7) Famines/Epidemics

With Dates of these occurrences as rows? All of this on one sheet?

I work with Google Spreadsheets and MS Excel utmost daily at my job (gathering data on IP Phones, IP addy, names, etc.), and my immediate thought having each of these occurrences as separate sheet with full data.

For example, one of us would strictly focus on "Environmental" sheet looking at all the dates and at specific details as you specify, and another would look at "Atmospheric" sheet and so on. In the end, we'd match/compare them.

just a thought
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Laura said:
Well, it needs to be figured out and I'm not sure that I have the mathematical brain to do it, but here is what I have noticed that makes me want to organize things.

The types of data:
environmental
unusual weather which can be drought, floods, early spring followed by freezing, prolonged winters, extremely cold winters, unusual warmth in winter that causes plants to bud out and are then killed by sudden cold late in the season. So maybe this could be coded as to exactly what type of event it is?

Then: atmospheric
comets, "swords or shields" in the sky, (there are varying descriptions of this type), flashes of light, pillars of light, sky on fire, glow in the sky that persists, unusual darkness, that sort of thing. Again, they could be divided up and assigned a code and if, in the course of digging, a new type of thing is encountered, it could be given a code.

Then, geological: earthquakes, sinkholes, rivers overflowing, tsunamis, etc.

Question is: where to put sounds? As atmospheric? (I don't like that, confuses comets, meteors, etc) or with geological, assuming that such sounds are related to geological processes. OR do we have a separate category for sounds altogether? That isn't appealing.

One thing that I've noted is that very often, possibly stupendous events appear to have been transformed into "battles". What if a "battle" was actually a cometary event? Like the absolute destruction of an army such as the Battle of Arausio, about which I am VERY suspicious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arausio and the Battle of Actium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Actium

So, maybe important battles should be included? Or maybe all battles that are encountered? Location, date, death count if given. Obviously, different sources give different death counts and that may be revealing. And if you see similar battles with similar death counts given for the same place, but in different years, you may suspect a doublet.

Then, famines and epidemics. Should famines be included with weather, or separate since they are the effect of weather on human beings? Maybe famines, epidemics and battles should all be under one main category as "effects on society"? We might find multiple correlations there such as the deaths from a famine or an epidemic being represented as a battle. Or battles, famines, epidemics piling correlating to environmental and atmospheric and geological events. Perhaps we should include rebellions also, as a separate form of "battle."

Obviously, dates (as given though we don't take them as truth), location, source, date that source is writing. AND, if the same event seems to be described by different sources, we need to include it and place a code that it appears to be a corroborating report OR derived from the previous source.

So that is just in general the type of stuff I've encountered again and again and the questions that have come up in my mind.

We could have two columns for types of event, a general one which can be split into environmental, atmospheric, geological and effects on society and then a more detailed one with the various subcategories. I think I would put famines, epidemics, battles, rebellions etc. together otherwise the main category list would get too long.

In terms of dates that the source is writing, what if the author is citing an earlier source? Should both dates and authors be added if known?

Laura said:
What would be nice would be a recording system with drop down menus for the various options, a box for text to describe the event, but which would only show if you ask for it, so that the table could be clean and neat.

Yep, that's the idea. I'm happy to get a first draft done this evening and send it out to see how it looks.


Zadius Sky said:
You gave a lot to work with.

We can use these data as columns:

1) Environmental
2) Atmospheric
3) Geological
4) Sound (as fourth column since it could be related to the previous three data)
5) "Cometary Battle"?
6) Notable Battle (Human) with death count, etc.
7) Famines/Epidemics

With Dates of these occurrences as rows? All of this on one sheet?

I work with Google Spreadsheets and MS Excel utmost daily at my job (gathering data on IP Phones, IP addy, names, etc.), and my immediate thought having each of these occurrences as separate sheet with full data.

For example, one of us would strictly focus on "Environmental" sheet looking at all the dates and at specific details as you specify, and another would look at "Atmospheric" sheet and so on. In the end, we'd match/compare them.

just a thought

ADDED: Just saw your post. I think it would be better to have two columns for event type (one main and one for subcategories) which can then be filtered according to need and have the years in one column otherwise you end up getting too many rows.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Zadius Sky said:
You gave a lot to work with.

We can use these data as columns:

1) Environmental
2) Atmospheric
3) Geological
4) Sound (as fourth column since it could be related to the previous three data)
5) "Cometary Battle"? {An unusual battle? I was thinking that it should be listed with regular battles though with a code that indicates it is unusual so as to see if it matches with atmospheric/celestial data.}
6) Notable Battle (Human) with death count, etc.
7) Famines/Epidemics {I was thinking number 6 and 7 should be together because they are human death events overall, and might then show up as correlations.}

With Dates of these occurrences as rows? All of this on one sheet?

Dates should be in the first column.

I work with Google Spreadsheets and MS Excel utmost daily at my job (gathering data on IP Phones, IP addy, names, etc.), and my immediate thought having each of these occurrences as separate sheet with full data.

For example, one of us would strictly focus on "Environmental" sheet looking at all the dates and at specific details as you specify, and another would look at "Atmospheric" sheet and so on. In the end, we'd match/compare them.

just a thought

It would make it too difficult to do it that way. Better to have person working with a given source assignment and extracting ALL the data from that source. Having columns with general category and the item put in as a code, like A1 = Astronomical, comet, and A2 = Astronomical, sky on fire, and A3 = Astronomical, columns of light in the sky, etc. That way, there would be a limited number of columns, but the codes would incorporate a wider variety of data.

Speaking of which, I've asked Data to take a look at it and see if there is some nifty program he could create that would do what we want it to easily with some WYSIWYG features.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

Laura said:
It would make it too difficult to do it that way. Better to have person working with a given source assignment and extracting ALL the data from that source. Having columns with general category and the item put in as a code, like A1 = Astronomical, comet, and A2 = Astronomical, sky on fire, and A3 = Astronomical, columns of light in the sky, etc. That way, there would be a limited number of columns, but the codes would incorporate a wider variety of data.

Speaking of which, I've asked Data to take a look at it and see if there is some nifty program he could create that would do what we want it to easily with some WYSIWYG features.

That would be a good way to go and pretty convenient.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

What would be interesting also is to have numbers. For example, if for a given year we have three occurrences of big earthquakes, the "density" for the earthquake variable would be E=3, and so on for every kind of events. I'm not familiar with Excel but there should be a program that gives the number of entries in each cell so to have a graphical representation of the density of events as a function of time.

Depending on the adopted format I can adapt ice-core data for an extra entry.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

mkrnhr said:
What would be interesting also is to have numbers. For example, if for a given year we have three occurrences of big earthquakes, the "density" for the earthquake variable would be E=3, and so on for every kind of events. I'm not familiar with Excel but there should be a program that gives the number of entries in each cell so to have a graphical representation of the density of events as a function of time.

Depending on the adopted format I can adapt ice-core data for an extra entry.

Excellent. Data will be reviewing our needs here to see if there is something that can be done to fix up a convenient, online way we can all work on such a project. Then we can list the texts, people can claim the ones they want to work with, and put in an hour or two a day of reading through while sitting at the computer and when an item comes up, just input it.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

mkrnhr said:
What would be interesting also is to have numbers. For example, if for a given year we have three occurrences of big earthquakes, the "density" for the earthquake variable would be E=3, and so on for every kind of events. I'm not familiar with Excel but there should be a program that gives the number of entries in each cell so to have a graphical representation of the density of events as a function of time.

Depending on the adopted format I can adapt ice-core data for an extra entry.

Yes was thinking of something similar too. The count function can be used to give the number of events occurring during each year. We could create another sheet with these "density" numbers and compare it to the ice core, tree ring data. What about using a binary or pseudo-binary system for comparison? A number can be assigned to the level of ammonium (e.g. 0,1,2,3 depending on the level recorded) from ice cores and added to a chart along with the "density" numbers obtained for each year.
 
Re: Historical Events Database

I could make an online app rather quickly, which all of you could access. Based on your input I've created a mockup for the input form, attached to this post.

I guess the main purpose is to have enough data/event points so that we can correlate later with modern records of tree rings, eclipses, position of stars, etc. to estimate the 'historical gap' that Laura mentioned. Because of this, the app could be a generic historical events tracker; generic enough so that the characteristic properties of all kinds of events can be entered.

It doesn't care about categories and actual event names, they can be added by the users. In case the lists get too long, there would be a search function to avoid duplication. New event names should be added only when an event is very different from the existing ones, so that 'thinning out' of the number of available data points is avoided. That is why the initial event list should be well thought out.

As many properties as possible can be entered. If a property is not known, it can be left empty or zero. I've added to the mockup as many characteristic properties that I could think of. Which properties to be used to present the data, and how the actual presentation of the data will be (maps, graphs, lists, filtered lists, etc.) we can decide later, after the data has been entered.
 

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