Frustration with wishful thinking

[Inti]

In my intro, I mentioned a bit about struggling with wishful thinkers. I tend to have difficulty with anyone of a similar new-age persuasion. I could do with some advice about it because, as far as I can see, I do not handle situations with these people very well. I have read some of the posts or articles on this site about this new-age phenomenon...and whilst reading about it and knowing a bit about the rationality of why wishful thinking does not necessarily bring about a positive state is helpful to me in putting forward a more objective view, it has not helped my gut reaction...which is one of anger. I happen to be surrounded by many wishful thinkers. It might be my imagination but wishful thinking also seems increasingly common. I imagine that I need to be more accepting as I can often see myself wanting to press seeing good and bad onto them, which is hypocritical of me and not good. I also see a lot of smugness in this hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil approach and I often feel frustrated by seeing someone in a white floaty outfit and beatific smile professing peace and love to all beings and can be very cynical about it. What I am wondering, since there are many people that I know like this, is whether it would better for me to separate myself from them until my responses can be more mature, rather than a gut reaction of frustration and anger? (Difficult because I like many other parts of their characters)....or what? I just don't know...I have tried keeping quiet, responded with frustration, responded with more rational remarks, taken deep breaths, tried questioning to see where their point of view comes from....but I can't seem to quell my frustration! And I don't like the frustration or contempt I feel for this point of view either! It's not helpful to me or anyone else.
Also, I'm curious about the quote Laura took from William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience", cited in the Wave "Everywhere you look, there is the face of God". My copy has different words:

"If religious intolerance and hanging and burning could again become the order of the day, there is little doubt that, however it may have been in the past, the healthy-minded would at present show themselves the less indulgent of the two"

Could someone clarify this for me?

 

[mada85]

I often feel frustrated by seeing someone in a white floaty outfit and beatific smile professing peace and love to all beings and can be very cynical about it.

I have found in myself the same type of reaction to similar people. All that love and light and 'floaty white outfits' (hear the sarcasm!) drives me nuts. I have a friend who I have not seen for a while, mainly for this reason. He regularly makes statements like: 'Being a vegetarian is a spiritual thing'; 'All we need to do is send love to Palestine/Iran/Iraq/Obama (insert cause of choice)' . . . you get the picture. It's also combined with a strong dose of smugness in his own beliefs. He is NOT open to the idea that sending unrequested love and light is a free will violation, or that it may be better to eat more scientifically, and I find that very frustrating. It's rather like banging my head against the proverbial brick wall. All my life I have had this type of reaction.

In my younger years I had the same reaction against Christians. I particularly remember a friend who had some sort of 'experience' and then bought into the whole mythos surrounding Bob Marley and Haile Selassie. He once accused me of 'not believing'. Being young and naive at the time I actually felt guilty! But I knew even then that belief in such mind games was not a good thing. My mother is another wishful thinker type, who wears a pair of rose-tinted glasses. She's very naive; she cannot accept that those in 'public service' may not have our best interests at heart, that bankers might be greedy criminals, and so on. But, whenever I have tried to talk to her on that level, afterwards I always feel that I have violated her free will, simply because she has not asked for that type of information, and I think she actually finds it threatening.

Two things come to mind. Perhaps it is better to keep away from such persons until one is more able to transofrm negative emotions. Secondly, perhaps the frustration is one part of us sending a strong message to keep away. I'm not sure whether it's instinctive, or learned. On the other hand, for myself, I expect, naively I suppose, that other people will be interested in the newest knowledge I have found, and that they will have an open mind. Hoever, I do also notice that this is in essence a rather childish approach.

It is when I am confronted by a closed mind that I am shocked, and then frustration arises. I have learnt over the years that there are some subjects that I simply cannot talk about with some people, which is not only frustrating, but I find also rather sad.

 

[PepperFritz]

Inti:

It's interesting that you title this thread "Frustration with wishful thinking", which implies that those who indulge in "wishful thinking" are the "problem". But in actual fact, the "problem" is the that you are unable to control your "anger" and "frustration" around such people.

You suggest that perhaps you should avoid such people until such time as you are more "in control" of your emotions around them. However, that's like saying one should avoid riding a bicycle until one has learned how to not fall off one. The people, events, and circumstances of our daily lives are not here arbitrarily, they are here to help us learn specific lessons. And, as both Gurdjieff and Castenada have pointed out, it usually from our interactions with the most frustrating and irritating people in our lives that we have the most to learn.

Perhaps you should start to view "wishful thinkers" as what Castenada's Don Juan calls Teensy-Weensy Petty Tyrants. Don Juan suggests that we should view the presence of such people in our lives as a gift, as they help us to develop control over our emotions and impulses, and reduce our self-importance and narcissism; they also present an opportunity to practice and hone External Consideration and Strategic Self-Enclosure, and avoiding the violation of others' Free Will.

Perhaps you could provide us with a specific example of a recent encounter with a "wishful thinker", what was done and said, what you felt, etc., and members of the forum could share their own experiences and suggest ways in which you could have handled the situation more in accordance with the principles of the Work....

 

[henry]

To add to what PepperFritz has said, perhaps the message you are receiving is not to run away, but to look more closely at yourself. Strong reactions like this are often because we still have the same "faults" in us that we see in others. We aren't ready, yet, to see them in ourselves, to own them, so we project back that anger at the outside world.

Strong negative emotions regarding others should be an important clue that one needs to look inside, not outside.

 

[Inti]

It's interesting that you title this thread "Frustration with wishful thinking", which implies that those who indulge in "wishful thinking" are the "problem". But in actual fact, the "problem" is the that you are unable to control your "anger" and "frustration" around such people.

Well it was actually titled that to reveal my feelings about wishful thinking which I do see as a problem, hence why I posted! Yes, you are right - I am mostly unable to control my frustration when the wishful thinking emerges.

You suggest that perhaps you should avoid such people until such time as you are more "in control" of your emotions around them. However, that's like saying one should avoid riding a bicycle until one has learned how to not fall off one. The people, events, and circumstances of our daily lives are not here arbitrarily, they are here to help us learn specific lessons. And, as both Gurdjieff and Castenada have pointed out, it usually from our interactions with the most frustrating and irritating people in our lives that we have the most to learn.

I agree! I'm just really struggling to learn the lesson! I'm sure that's why the wishful thinkers keep cropping up in my life!

Perhaps you could provide us with a specific example of a recent encounter with a "wishful thinker", what was done and said, what you felt, etc., and members of the forum could share their own experiences and suggest ways in which you could have handled the situation more in accordance with the principles of the Work....

Well, the US elections are quite a prominent example. I was quite shocked that so many people had so much faith in Obama. As it was quite a large subject at the time, many people were discussing it, saying how Obama would bring positive change and how great it was to see so much hope. I don't know Obama, maybe he's good, maybe he's bad...I don't know. I just have problems with hope (and despair for that matter) - I think they are dangerous and can lead to delusions. I also see that throughout history as I can see it, hope has not brought the desired changes and I see that, in many cases, it has served to further enslave. I'm not sure I really warm to the idea of faith in anyone either. I suppose it upsets me because I feel like I'm being told lies. And so when someone comes up to me and says something to the effect of "all this doubt and cynicism you have about Obama is feeding the negativity, we gotta have hope in him and be positive and support him", I struggle. Generally I try to explain myself and my feelings as I have to you. I do not want to violate another's free will and I know I cannot know the lessons of another's life or the path they may need to take, but in practice in this situation I find it hard to stop myself from feeling frustrated.

 

[Inti]

To add to what PepperFritz has said, perhaps the message you are receiving is not to run away, but to look more closely at yourself. Strong reactions like this are often because we still have the same "faults" in us that we see in others. We aren't ready, yet, to see them in ourselves, to own them, so we project back that anger at the outside world.

It is possible what you say, but if it is true I am too blind to see it at the moment! But I can see how it might be that I am as eager for others to see good and bad as the wishful thinkers are for others to see just good. Perhaps that is the lesson?

Strong negative emotions regarding others should be an important clue that one needs to look inside, not outside.

Yes, I think I can see that.

 

[FireShadow]

One possible path to looking inward is to ask yourself why it is so important to you that people see reality as you do. What happens if they don't?

 

[anart]

One possible path to looking inward is to ask yourself why it is so important to you that people see reality as you do.  What happens if they don't? 

An interesting exercise you might try when next faced with one of these situations or conversations is to just nod and agree with them.  By observing what goes on in your own mind/body when you do this, you might get a clue as to why you are having such a hard time separating their view on the world from your own.  Ultimately, being so upset that they are so deeply asleep and dreaming doesn't make much sense unless, on some level, you believe that it relates directly to you, or reflects directly on you - that it is, on some level 'about you'.

It's not - it's about them and their dream, but you can't see that yet.  So, next time, just agree with them and see what happens.

It's also a form of external consideration - they do not have to know that you do not buy into the newage wishful thinking - it would do them no good to know that anyway, they're asleep, so you might as well be arguing with a 'life size cardboard cutout' of a person for all the good it will do.

Most of the people in my day to day life think that I view the world the way they do - this is due to conscious effort on my part, since it makes life easier for them and for myself; it maintains my strategic enclosure.  They don't need to know how I perceive the world, they wouldn't like it anyway - so, they all think that I think just like they do.  Why shouldn't they?  As Gurdjieff said, "sincerity with everyone is a weakness".  fwiw.

 

[PepperFritz]

Well, the US elections are quite a prominent example. I was quite shocked that so many people had so much faith in Obama.

If you really analyze the Obama phenomenon in terms of the ponerization of our society, the manipulation of the PTB, and the simple fact that the majority of people are fast asleep and will grasp at any "feel good" drug that is offered to them, it's not "shocking" at all. In fact, it was quite predictable. It would probably be helpful for you to read the Barack Obama thread in its entirety, and all the various articles and and analyses that are linked to there, in order to "understand" the mechanics/strategies involved.

As it was quite a large subject at the time, many people were discussing it, saying how Obama would bring positive change and how great it was to see so much hope. I don't know Obama, maybe he's good, maybe he's bad...I don't know. I just have problems with hope (and despair for that matter) - I think they are dangerous and can lead to delusions.

Okay, here you are saying that you really haven't done much research into Obama, that you have no real objective basis for considering their faith in him to be misplaced and/or unfounded. Instead, you are having a very intense emotional reaction to the idea of being sold "hope" that is probably based on "lies" and will ultimately result in disappointment. That suggests to me like you have experienced those issues on a very painful, personal level at some point in your life, and need to ask yourself questions along these lines:

* When in your life did you place a great deal of hope and faith in something, or someone, only to have the rug pulled out from under you, causing you great "despair"?
* Who in your life used to "build up your hopes" and then time after time fail to follow through, leaving you feeling devastated?
* Who or what circumstances in your life taught you that hope can only lead to despair, that hope can only lead to "danger"?
* Did you once (or many times) blindly put your faith in someone or something that you shouldn't have? Are you still angry at yourself that you did that, are you not able to forgive yourself for having been "sucked in"?

An honest attempt to answer such questions should lead you to the genuine "emotion" behind your mechanical response to "wishful thinkers", to the program that kicks in whenever you deal with them. As you feel that emotion rise up in your throat, try to resist the temptation to suppress or dampen it, follow it to where it leads....

...in this situation I find it hard to stop myself from feeling frustrated.

It's not a question of "stopping" yourself through sheer exertion of will. It's a question of trying to objectively observe your own behaviour, and thus gain insight into its origin, thus robbing it of the "power" it holds over you. Once you realize that you are simply projecting your own suppressed and/or unresolved emotions about something deeply PERSONAL in your own life, and that the "wishful thinkers" are just the "triggers" that set it off, you won't have to "stop" yourself; the objective, conscious knowledge you have gained about your own behaviour makes such automatic, mechanical, unconscious responses less likely to "run amok" without your "catching it"....

 

[anart]

That suggests to me like you have experienced those issues on a very painful, personal level and some point in your life, and need to ask yourself questions along these lines:

Just a note that it might not be necessary to have experienced such on a very painful, personal level in this particular situation - the Obama Mania and wishful thinking was quite obvious - obvious enough to manifest a reaction against it if someone has an aversion to what could be termed 'wishful thinking'. I don't even know that it was necessary to know the specifics about Obama - he is a politician who has risen to the pinnacle of power - in this day and age, only one type of person is capable of that.  I'm not saying for certain that what Pepperfritz has proposed is not the case - I'm just offering up another possibility.

* When in your life did you place a great deal of hope and faith in something, or someone, only to have the rug pulled out from under you, causing you great "despair"?
* Who in your life used to "build up your hopes" and then time after time fail to follow through, leaving you feeling devastated?
* Who or what circumstances in your life taught you that hope can only lead to despair?
* Did you once (or many times) blindly put your faith in someone that you shouldn't have? Are you still angry at yourself that you did that, are you not able to forgive yourself for having been "sucked in"?

In case it's not clear, since this is a public forum, such personal questions, if you even feel the need to ask them, might best be answered privately, in your own mind.  It's always wise to remember to not write anything on a public forum that you would not be comfortable having the entire world read.

 

[FireShadow]

Inti, Pepperfritz and Anart both make excellent points.

(BTW,Pepperfritz, you worded your previous post so clearly that I bookmarked it for future reference. Thank you.)

And, Anart, thank you for reminding all of us that we don't have to post the answers to the questions posed here on the public forum, to be careful of what we divulge.

In case it's not clear, since this is a public forum, such personal questions, if you feel the need to ask them, might best be answered privately. It's always wise to remember to not write anything on a public forum that you would not be comfortable having the entire world read.

They are questions to pose to oneself in the course of self-observation, just part of the information gathering phase.

Inti, I only want to add to your questioning if I may:

As I read Pepperfritz's last post, the bolded part in the following quote got my attention...

(bold mine)

It's not a question of "stopping" yourself through sheer exertion of will. It's a question of trying to objectively observe your own behaviour, and thus gain insight into its origin, thus robbing it of the "power" it holds over you. Once you realize that you are simply projecting your own suppressed and/or unresolved emotions about something deeply PERSONAL in your own life, and that the "wishful thinkers" are just the "triggers" that set it off, you won't have to "stop" yourself; the objective, conscious knowledge you have gained about your own behaviour makes such automatic, mechanical, unconscious responses less possible....

...She used your epithet of "wishful thinkers" and it jumped out at me. The question that came into my mind was "Do you engage in wishful thinking?" or "Are you a Wishful Thinker?"

As Henry stated:

To add to what PepperFritz has said, perhaps the message you are receiving is not to run away, but to look more closely at yourself. Strong reactions like this are often because we still have the same "faults" in us that we see in others. We aren't ready, yet, to see them in ourselves, to own them, so we project back that anger at the outside world.

Strong negative emotions regarding others should be an important clue that one needs to look inside, not outside.

And, Inti, thank you for posting this thread.

 

[Buddy]

[...]
Strong negative emotions regarding others should be an important clue that one needs to look inside, not outside.

Just a word to say thanks Inti, for this thread and to everyone for their replys. It's a reminder to me that I more easily see in (project onto) others, what I find in myself. Indeed, I haven't found it untrue in any case where I have experienced an emotional reaction as of yet.

 

[PepperFritz]

Just a note that it might not be necessary to have experienced such on a very painful, personal level in this particular situation....

Yes, Inti, bear in mind that I could be completely off-base. I was just trying to relay what my own experience has been when dealing with strong mechanical emotions, and the kind of techniques that have worked for me in getting to the bottom of them....

In case it's not clear, since this is a public forum, such personal questions, if you even feel the need to ask them, might best be answered privately, in your own mind. It's always wise to remember to not write anything on a public forum that you would not be comfortable having the entire world read.

Yes, I wasn't suggesting that you answer those questions here, just that you pose them to yourself....

:)

 

[gwb1995]

I am on the same page as Buddy. This thread has been very helpful to me and I want to thank all involved. Henry's words, hit me right between the I's. Also, this thread has revealed to me how I have been missing the boat when it comes to my tiny petty tyrants. It has made me realize how I still battle with such petty things and don't see myself being totally subjective in my thinking.

Thanks to all,

gwb

 

[Inti]

Okay, here you are saying that you really haven't done much research into Obama, that you have no real objective basis for considering their faith in him to be misplaced and/or unfounded. Instead, you are having a very intense emotional reaction to the idea of being sold "hope" that is probably based on "lies" and will ultimately result in disappointment. That suggests to me like you have experienced those issues on a very painful, personal level at some point in your life, and need to ask yourself questions along these lines:

As I see it, this is not true. I have done research on Obama and those who are in power around him. It's just that I don't know how biased those sources are. And whilst, there may indeed be puppet controllers with bad intentions, I cannot know Obama or what he will do in the future. However, as Anart says:

I don't even know that it was necessary to know the specifics about Obama - he is a politician who has risen to the pinnacle of power - in this day and age, only one type of person is capable of that.

I'm not sure it's true that only one type of person is capable of that, and people do change on occasion. However, I think what Anart says is likely. In my case, I am just looking over the history of what I have seen and see much evidence of enslavement through hope. I also see no such thing as an external liberator or saviour figure, particularly among politicians.

Just a note that it might not be necessary to have experienced such on a very painful, personal level in this particular situation - the Obama Mania and wishful thinking was quite obvious - obvious enough to manifest a reaction against it if someone has an aversion to what could be termed 'wishful thinking'.

To my awareness, I have not experienced betrayal of trust or hope or faith on a personal level. I don't think I ever had much faith or hope or trust either. Please do not think this means I am a miserable person walking about in doom and gloom either! To my awareness, I see both beauty and ugliness in life..

...She used your epithet of "wishful thinkers" and it jumped out at me. The question that came into my mind was "Do you engage in wishful thinking?" or "Are you a Wishful Thinker?"

I really don't know, Henry asked a similar question, if I am a wishful thinker then I am too blind to see it at the moment. All I can see is that I get frustrated with wishful thinkers. But I must be deluded on some level, because I didn't expect people, for example, to accept Obama so unquestioningly.

An interesting exercise you might try when next faced with one of these situations or conversations is to just nod and agree with them. By observing what goes on in your own mind/body when you do this, you might get a clue as to why you are having such a hard time separating their view on the world from your own. Ultimately, being so upset that they are so deeply asleep and dreaming doesn't make much sense unless, on some level, you believe that it relates directly to you, or reflects directly on you - that it is, on some level 'about you'.

It's not - it's about them and their dream, but you can't see that yet. So, next time, just agree with them and see what happens.

Thanks, Anart, I will try it, but I can see I will find it difficult. I think it will feel like I am showing them a false self. But I suspect the exercise to be revealing.

Are there other people who have felt/feel this frustration (I can see Mada85 probably does!)? If so, could you perhaps explain your practices and realisations?