Facts

anart said:
Telperion said:
I have not said anything about Putin that could not be interpreted as fact. It usually depends on one's point of view.

Facts do not depend on point of view. Facts are not interpreted - they are FACTS, i.e, objectively true.

I personally do not think that Putin can be a 'good guy' to be in the position he is in - it doesn't appear to work that way on this planet, he is a world leader and 'good guys' don't become world leaders, though he may be less evil than some - however - Telperion, you must understand the definition of fact - and the difference between fact, point of view and opinion. It is also interesting to observe that, once again, the second a statement you have made is challenged, you instantly descend into subjective/defensive/emotional thinking and your posts become noise.

Just please stick to objective facts, or as close as we can get to them in our current condition - it will make quite the difference in your posts.

Ok...I appreciate what you are saying. Maybe when trying to describe the character of a particular historical figure the word 'fact' cannot come into play since viewpoints on any particular person will always be subjective, and based on each persons experience. For example I have friends in the Czech Republic who hate Russia and rail against that country because of past events, so probably this colors my view.

I'm sure there are people out there who would genuinely praise Stalin, Napoleon or Alexander the Great as being wonderful, decisive and strong leaders. If people want to place Putin on some sort of pedestal that is surely their prerogative however the logic of the West being so evil that Putin must be good by comparison is incomprehensible to me. I mean, if any of us had ever lived behind the iron curtain or in any of these post-Soviet satellite countries we might have a very different view of Putin and Russia.
 
Telperion said:
Ok...I appreciate what you are saying. Maybe when trying to describe the character of a particular historical figure the word 'fact' cannot come into play since viewpoints on any particular person will always be subjective, and based on each persons experience. For example I have friends in the Czech Republic who hate Russia and rail against that country because of past events, so probably this colors my view.

You may 'appreciate it' but you do not understand it. Once again - FACTS are not determined by viewpoints. A fact is a fact and a viewpoint, opinion, etc. is what it is - which is not a fact.

You are - once again - running a 'right man' program and seem to be wholly incapable of admitting when what you have written is mistaken. Please note that you being mistaken in this case has nothing to do with Putin - it has to do with you stating that ( http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9321.msg68231#msg68231 ) :

T said:
I have not said anything about Putin that could not be interpreted as fact. It usually depends on one's point of view. But my saying that Putin in a ruthless and calculating ex-KGB agent stems not from fear but from objective facts:

(return to present post) -
t said:
I'm sure there are people out there who would genuinely praise Stalin, Napoleon or Alexander the Great as being wonderful, decisive and strong leaders.

Opinion - not fact.

t said:
If people want to place Putin on some sort of pedestal that is surely their prerogative however the logic of the West being so evil that Putin must be good by comparison is incomprehensible to me.

Opinion - not fact.

t said:
I mean, if any of us had ever lived behind the iron curtain or in any of these post-Soviet satellite countries we might have a very different view of Putin and Russia.

Opinion and conjecture.

Please understand that this 'digging in' you do when what you have written is pointed out to be flawed is why you were previously suspended from this forum. This particular point is simply related to your complete misunderstanding of what is and what is not a fact - so - again, please --- less emotion, less opinion and stick to facts (as the word is defined).
 
So point of view does not influence what one might call a fact? :/ Sure e=mc2 here in this dimension but what about in others? You may think I am wearing a blue sweater but someone who is colorblind might see it completely differently. Do you understand why I have a problem getting on board with this view of facts you present? It's not about me not wanting to be wrong at all, that is your subjective interpretation. It's about my distrustfulness of rigid facts. After all my truth may not be your truth and vice versa.
 
Telperion said:
It's about my distrustfulness of rigid facts. After all my truth may not be your truth and vice versa.

This is exactly the crux, Telperion - this forum exists and functions for the express purpose of approaching an OBJECTIVE understanding of reality - that means that there is no such thing as 'my truth' and 'your truth' - there is only Truth.

If you are interested in participating in this, then you are more than welcome. If, however, you are only interested in 'your truth' then this is, ultimately and finally, not the forum for you. It's your choice.
 
anart said:
Telperion said:
It's about my distrustfulness of rigid facts. After all my truth may not be your truth and vice versa.

This is exactly the crux, Telperion - this forum exists and functions for the express purpose of approaching an OBJECTIVE understanding of reality - that means that there is no such thing as 'my truth' and 'your truth' - there is only Truth.

If you are interested in participating in this, then you are more than welcome. If, however, you are only interested in 'your truth' then this is, ultimately and finally, not the forum for you. It's your choice.

The term "my truth" was not meant to refer literally to myself and a personal truth as per your inference. An 'objective' understanding of reality can only be 'approached' by a process of creating homogenized thinking and living as we do in a culture that so highly values individuality and so forth, you can see how this is an uphill battle. With all due respect, maybe you have shed many or most of your 'I's' but for those of us who have not, it's a different story. Please try to keep this in mind.
 
Telperion said:
The term "my truth" was not meant to refer literally to myself and a personal truth as per your inference. An 'objective' understanding of reality can only be 'approached' by a process of creating homogenized thinking and living as we do in a culture that so highly values individuality and so forth, you can see how this is an uphill battle. With all due respect, maybe you have shed many or most of your 'I's' but for those of us who have not, it's a different story. Please try to keep this in mind.

:rolleyes: You really don't get it, do you? The point - which has been reiterated to you again and again and again is that this forum is working toward an objective understanding of EVERYTHING. This means that all active members of this forum work very, very hard to post not only thoughtful content, but content that is as free of subjectivity, opinion and self-importance as they can manage, no matter where they are on the learning/awakening/discernment scale. Often, these forum members are just beginning and nothing about their post is lacking subjectivity other than their sincere desire to understand and to contribute - their sincere desire to approach this place with an empty cup and learn.

You - however - have no empty cup. You post what you want to post - what makes you happy - how you see things - with little to no regard for the forum itself or the other forum members, because apparently, to you, all that matters, all that is valid, is your personal point of view.

The only 'uphill battle' extant in this situation, Telperion, is your your own battle with your self-importance and it seems quite clear - from the experience of your 292 posts in 9 months on this forum, that it is a battle you are not sincerely willing to wage. More than enough time and energy has been spent on trying to help you understand this - the world is on fire and there are more pressing matters.
 
As an addendum, it is rather fascinating that Telperion posted this only 8 days ago - how quickly one can fall back into confluence: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=3942.msg67519#msg67519

T said:
Sometimes being banned is a good thing. I was banned for a period of two weeks a few months ago and in retrospect I can see it was because 1) I was being to confrontational and overly opinionated and 2) I had not taken the time to learn the ins and outs of the forum especially the merits of using 'fwiw' (for what it's worth), 'IMO' (in my opinion) and 'osit' (or so i think). These little acronyms are especially useful to newcomers who find themselves disagreeing with someone in a thread as they keep you from coming across like bully when you're trying to get your point across. They also help to take away the appearance of one being a know it all or a blow hard etc...
 
anart, I think you've hit every angle here, but may I offer my 2 cents?


I'm no expert, but my impression is that the following 3 statements by Telperion:

...that could not be interpreted as fact.

So point of view does not influence what one might call a fact?

...my truth may not be your truth and vice versa.


indicate that the problem is the trap of misapplying or misunderstanding the meaning of "fact". It seems a full context understanding of the term is needed.

Consider the following entries at
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact
and in:
American Heritage dictionary:

1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: ex: Your fears have no basis in fact.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: ex: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

Telperion's discussion seems to be applying #4 as the definition of "fact", when #1 is more appropriate.
Besides, the forum rules already defines fact, objective fact and truth for proper use within the forum and is really all that is needed to compare one's position against.


Does anyone else think that there's anything wrong with the above definitions? I can't help it, but I have to say that #4 can't be seriously considered as a definition of fact can it? Look at the example given.
My response to that is:
If the "facts" given by the witness are "highly questionable", then what was given by the witness has not been established as facts then have they? I think it should read: The events as given by the witness are highly questionable.
 
Buddy said:
Does anyone else think that there's anything wrong with the above definitions? I can't help it, but I have to say that #4 can't be seriously considered as a definition of fact can it? Look at the example given.
My response to that is:
If the "facts" given by the witness are "highly questionable", then what was given by the witness has not been established as facts then have they? I think it should read: The events as given by the witness are highly questionable.

Exactly - the definition listed rather reeks of ponerization, and 'newspeak' ala 1984, doesn't it? Ultimately, if we, as a species, reduce the definition of fact to 'something said to be true' then the Pathocracy has all the 'facts' it needs... "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is" - and on and on.

Yet another example of a 'diverging of worlds' - the objective and the subjective - and, make no mistake, the blurring of such lines serves the PTB very well - same thing with sociopath/psychopath and 'war is peace' and - unfortunately - millions of other examples. osit.

Laura wrote something a while back about the 'changing definitions' of words and why and how.... it's late for me atm, but I'll look for it when I get a chance...
 
anart said:
As an addendum, it is rather fascinating that Telperion posted this only 8 days ago - how quickly one can fall back into confluence: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=3942.msg67519#msg67519

T said:
Sometimes being banned is a good thing. I was banned for a period of two weeks a few months ago and in retrospect I can see it was because 1) I was being to confrontational and overly opinionated and 2) I had not taken the time to learn the ins and outs of the forum especially the merits of using 'fwiw' (for what it's worth), 'IMO' (in my opinion) and 'osit' (or so i think). These little acronyms are especially useful to newcomers who find themselves disagreeing with someone in a thread as they keep you from coming across like bully when you're trying to get your point across. They also help to take away the appearance of one being a know it all or a blow hard etc...

I dunno. These statements, "they keep you from coming across like a bully" and "They also help to take away the appearance of one being a know it all or a blow hard etc..." show an interest in appearance rather than what is true. Kinda like Telperion's regard for facts.
 
Los said:
I dunno. These statements, "they keep you from coming across like a bully" and "They also help to take away the appearance of one being a know it all or a blow hard etc..." show an interest in appearance rather than what is true. Kinda like Telperion's regard for facts.

Good point - I was being rather generous with the 'confluence' statement... :halo:
 
Anart said:
lUtimately, if we, as a species, reduce the definition of fact to 'something said to be true' then the Pathocracy has all the 'facts' it needs... "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is" - and on and on.

Yet another example of a 'diverging of worlds' - the objective and the subjective - and, make no mistake, the blurring of such lines serves the PTB very well - same thing with sociopath/psychopath and 'war is peace' and - unfortunately - millions of other examples. osit.

Laura wrote something a while back about the 'changing definitions' of words and why and how.... it's late for me atm, but I'll look for it when I get a chance...
That reminded me of something i came across when perlustrating a book by Adamatzky 'Dynamics of Crowd-Minds Patterns of Irrationality in Emotions, Beliefs
and Actions'. It presents mathematic simulation of behavior of large crowds, where people are deindividuated and behave like automatons. In the end of the book there was a short glossary, where 'knowledge' is given such a brief completely psychopathic definition:
Adamatzky said:
Knowledge is a justified belief
'When i turn away from a chair, it dissapears.'
Does it come as s surprise book lists Galam's 'Modeling Rumors:the no plane Pentagon French hoax case in Bibliography section???
[edit] oops, i ignorantly jumped into epistemiology battles of justified true belief and Moore's paradox :-[

Either 'truth', or 'facts' are ignored in Adamatzky's definition of 'knowledge'. Imo, such defining 'knowledge' as a 'justified belief' ignores facts of objective reality, equalizing 'knowledge' with 'belief'. To me such definition looks highly contagious and psychopathic as it establishes 'belief' as a cornerstone of acquiring knowledge. One's [subjectively?] 'justified' belief can easily be a belief in a lie.
 
Telperion:

I sense that you're having a real mental block about this, and I just want to take a stab at helping you "get" it. Please bear with me and read the following, because I really think it might give you a different perspective:

An analogy: A trained aviation expert has the technical knowledge that allows him to accurately identify a Boeing 747 plane, via objective observation of its appearance and characteristics. Because of his training and knowledge he is able to say: "It is a fact that the airplane I am looking at is a Boeing 747." Now, someone with less knowledge, say, your average airplane passenger, might say "I know for a fact that is a Boeing 777", and a New Guinea tribesman might swear up and down that what he is looking at is a giant bird. Now, you would not say that the identification of the plane "depends on your point of view", and label all three persons' statements about the plane as equally "factual", right?

In the same way, an expert on psychopaths and ponerology has the technical knowledge that allows him to accurately identify a psychopathic political leader, via objective observation of that leader's characteristics, his actions and behaviour. Because of his knowledge, he is able to say: "It is a fact that John Smith is a psychopath." Now, someone with less knowledge, say the citizen of a country run by a leader whose behaviour is much more outrageous than that of John Smith, might say, "I know for a fact that John Smith is not a psychopath, because he is not nearly as bad as our leader." A third person might say "I know for sure that he's a psychopath because I disagree with his political policies." In the same way you would not say that the identification of John Smith as a psychopath is soley dependent on your "point of view", and label all three persons' statements about Smith as being equally "factual".

What is the key element in both scenarios that allows for the accurate establishment of not just OPINION, or POINT OF VIEW, but FACT? It is KNOWLEDGE, it is TECHNICAL EXPERTISE. All of the countless articles and threads on SOTT and this forum about psychopaths and ponerology are based on work of experts who have extensively studied the subject; who, via their research, have been able to identify the defining characteristics and behaviour of psychopaths in all areas of life, including politics and government. Their conclusions do not represent OPINION, or idiosyncratic POINTS OF VIEW, they represent FACT.

I understand what you were trying to say in your comments about Putin. However, if you had wanted to make the case that Putin is in fact a psychopathic political leader, you should have concentrated on his ACTIONS and BEHAVIOUR and not simply the perspective of those who have experience of him, regardless of their knowledge, or lack of knowledge, about ponerology. In essence, your argument went as follows: "Well, to a lot of Americans he is not a psychopath because he is not as bad as Bush, but to the people in Chechnya, he is a psychopath -- it all depends on your point of view." However, instead, you should have concentrated on Putin's specific actions and behaviours in relation to Chechnya, then compared those actions and behaviours to what we know about psychopaths and ponerology. "Point of view" does not come into it, one can either identify him as a psychopath via objective observation of his actions and behaviour (i.e., does he exhibit the KNOWN characteristics of a psychopath, of a ponerized leader and political system?), or one cannot. That would be a true objective examination of the FACTS.

Do you begin to see?
 
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