Ellen White

Avi

Avi

Jedi Council Member
Dear Laura and All:


A strange occurrence yesterday and after a bit of research thought I would share.


There is a local small book-store looking to sell the business/inventory and after talking with the owner a few times decided to visit and inspect the books.


We had an amiable chat but as I was leaving noticed about 3-4 volumes of very large books (11 x 17 perhaps?) that were obviously "old" and when looking closer were titled "Signs of the Times"!! :cool:


As it turns out these are periodicals printed in the late 19th Century and are a collection of writings from Ellen White
(née Harmon) - apparently a prominent player in the 7th Day Adventist Church, of which I am by and large wholly ignorant.


So just for a brief moment I thumbed through one of the volumes, it had a religious/spiritual and even "end-times" feel to it.

Sounds familar....


Upon reading more about this lady, well, wow. Here is a brief excerpt, found here: http://www.whiteestate.org/about/egwbio.asp


There are many books available for purchase online about the Life and Work of Ellen G. White.

In brief, she was a woman of remarkable spiritual gifts who lived most of her life during the nineteenth century (1827-1915), yet through her writings she is still making a revolutionary impact on millions of people around the world. During her lifetime she wrote more than 5,000 periodical articles and 40 books; but today, including compilations from her 50,000 pages of manuscript, more than 100 titles are available in English. She is the most translated woman writer in the entire history of literature, and the most translated American author of either gender. Her writings cover a broad range of subjects, including religion, education, social relationships, evangelism, prophecy, publishing, nutrition, and management.
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But what also became interesting to learn is that the former President (Harmon) of the college I attended for my degree is related. Add to that learning that within a few miles from where i live is a major branch for her work/estate and, well, :umm: :whistle:


Maybe much ado about nothing but thought I would share.


One question, when Signs of the Times went online in 2002 - what lead you to choosing such a name, other than obvious biblical implications? In short, are you familiar with Ellen White in any way? Just curious. I found it noteworthy to discover that she never completed a "formal" education either.


Kind regards.
 
It's interesting that you bring up the topic of Ellen White and the Seventh Day Adventists. I was doing some reading about vegetarianism in North America and came across this group. John Harvey Kellogg, the founder of Kellogg cereal company, was a Seventh Day Adventist and created his product as a result of his spiritual beliefs.

They seem to have a particular interest in the control of health and sexuality. Apparently, Kellogg was a supporter of the eugenics movement, which doesn't surprise me at all considering how the eugenics movement became conflated with health and medicine.
 
Some interesting quotes from the writings of Ellen G. White:

[quote author=Manuscript 7, 1896 (Selected Messages Book 2, page 343, paragraph 2)]But there is an objection to the marriage of the white race with the black. All should consider that they have no right to entail upon their offspring that which will place them at a disadvantage; they have no right to give them as a birthright a condition which would subject them to a life of humiliation. The children of these mixed marriages have a feeling of bitterness toward the parents who have given them this lifelong inheritance. For this reason, if there were no other, there should be no intermarriage between the white and the colored race.[/quote]

[quote author=Letter 36, 1912. (Selected Messages, Book 2, page 344, paragraphs 1,2)]In reply to inquiries regarding the advisability of intermarriage between Christian young people of the white and black races, I will say that in my earlier experience this question was brought before me, and the light given me of the Lord was that this step should not be taken; for it is sure to create controversy and confusion. I have always had the same counsel to give. No encouragement to marriages of this character should be given among our people. Let the colored brother enter into marriage with a colored sister who is worthy, one who loves God, and keeps His commandments. Let the white sister who contemplates uniting in marriage with the colored brother refuse to take this step, for the Lord is not leading in this direction. Time is too precious to be lost in controversy that will arise over this matter. Let not questions of this kind be permitted to call our ministers from their work. The taking of such a step will create confusion and hindrance. It will not be for the advancement of the work or for the glory of God.[/quote]

[quote author=Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 202]Opportunities are continually presenting themselves in the Southern States, and many wise, Christian colored men will be called to the work. But for several reasons white men must be chosen as leaders.[/quote]

[quote author=Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, Paragraph 3]The Colored People should not urge that they be placed on an equality with White People.[/quote]

[quote author=Testimonies Vol. 9, page 213 paragraph 4]No one is capable of clearly defining the proper position of the colored people.[/quote]

[quote author=Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, paragraph 4]The work of proclaiming the truth for this time is not to be hindered by an effort to adjust the position of the Negro race.[/quote]

[quote author=The Visions of E.G. White Not of God- by Snook and Brinkerhoff, Seventh-day Adventist leaders in Iowa who were ordained by James White in 1862]These visions teach that the Negro race is not human. . . Here is what she says; 'Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species, and in certain races of men.'—Sp. Gifts. Vol. 3, p. 75. But what are we to understand by certain races of men? She has not informed us in her writings, but left us to fix the stigma of amalgamation where we may see fit. But the interpretation has come to light. She told it to her husband, and he made it known to Eld. Ingraham, and he divulged the secret to the writer, that Sister White had seen that God never made the Darkey." [/quote]

[quote author=Review and Herald, July 24, 1883]Singing should not be allowed to divert the mind from the hours of devotion. If one must be neglected, let it be the singing. It is one of the great temptations of the present age to carry the practice of music to extremes, to make a great deal more of music than of prayer. Many souls have been ruined here. When the Spirit of God is arousing the conscience and convicting of sin, Satan suggests a singing exercise or a singing school, which, being conducted in a light and trifling manner, results in banishing seriousness, and quenching all desire for the Spirit of God. Thus the door of the heart, which was about to be opened to Jesus, is closed and barricaded with pride and stubbornness, in many cases never again to be opened.

"By the temptations attending these singing exercises, many who were once really converted to the truth have been led to separate themselves from God. They have chosen singing before prayer, attending singing schools in preference to religious meetings, until the truth no longer exerts its sanctifying power upon their souls. Such singing is an offense to God.[/quote]
 
Very interesting considering that Ellen Gould White herself was considered mulatto:


GOULD ANCESTRY OF ELLEN GOULD (HARMON) WHITE
(The Genealogist's Report)

[Mr. Joslyn opens his report by quoting five excerpts from a book that challenges Ellen White's previously documented Anglo-Saxon ancestry.]



When James S. White and Ellen Gould Harmon married about 1848, they suddenly realized their marriage placed them under an old law which forbade Whites to marry Coloreds and in less than ten years, they found themselves gravitating toward the Ohio Colony where mulattoes had settled. [p. 13]



James White along with his mulatto wife, Ellen White also moved westward to Saratoga, to Rochester, New York to Ohio on onward to Battle Creek, Michigan where they lived among the Colored people. [p. 12]



[Ellen] could relate with the plight of the mulatto and slave groups for these were her people. [p. 13]



In Battle Creek, memorials are being erected in honor of two great women, Harriet Tubman and SoJourner Truth. It would be proper to have another erected in honor of another great African-American woman, Ellen Gould Harmon White. [p. 13]



Eunice Gould Harmon, Ellen’s mother was a mulatto; whose roots can be traced to New Jersey and the Caribbean. The roots of Robert Harmon, her father, were of the African/Moor/Nanticoke Indian and English Colored people living on the Eastern Shores of Delaware. [p. 33]
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http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/genealogy.html

:huh:

Jerry said:
Some interesting quotes from the writings of Ellen G. White:

[quote author=Manuscript 7, 1896 (Selected Messages Book 2, page 343, paragraph 2)]But there is an objection to the marriage of the white race with the black. All should consider that they have no right to entail upon their offspring that which will place them at a disadvantage; they have no right to give them as a birthright a condition which would subject them to a life of humiliation. The children of these mixed marriages have a feeling of bitterness toward the parents who have given them this lifelong inheritance. For this reason, if there were no other, there should be no intermarriage between the white and the colored race.
Click to expand...

[quote author=Letter 36, 1912. (Selected Messages, Book 2, page 344, paragraphs 1,2)]In reply to inquiries regarding the advisability of intermarriage between Christian young people of the white and black races, I will say that in my earlier experience this question was brought before me, and the light given me of the Lord was that this step should not be taken; for it is sure to create controversy and confusion. I have always had the same counsel to give. No encouragement to marriages of this character should be given among our people. Let the colored brother enter into marriage with a colored sister who is worthy, one who loves God, and keeps His commandments. Let the white sister who contemplates uniting in marriage with the colored brother refuse to take this step, for the Lord is not leading in this direction. Time is too precious to be lost in controversy that will arise over this matter. Let not questions of this kind be permitted to call our ministers from their work. The taking of such a step will create confusion and hindrance. It will not be for the advancement of the work or for the glory of God.[/quote]

[quote author=Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 202]Opportunities are continually presenting themselves in the Southern States, and many wise, Christian colored men will be called to the work. But for several reasons white men must be chosen as leaders.[/quote]

[quote author=Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, Paragraph 3]The Colored People should not urge that they be placed on an equality with White People.[/quote]

[quote author=Testimonies Vol. 9, page 213 paragraph 4]No one is capable of clearly defining the proper position of the colored people.[/quote]

[quote author=Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, paragraph 4]The work of proclaiming the truth for this time is not to be hindered by an effort to adjust the position of the Negro race.[/quote]

[quote author=The Visions of E.G. White Not of God- by Snook and Brinkerhoff, Seventh-day Adventist leaders in Iowa who were ordained by James White in 1862]These visions teach that the Negro race is not human. . . Here is what she says; 'Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species, and in certain races of men.'—Sp. Gifts. Vol. 3, p. 75. But what are we to understand by certain races of men? She has not informed us in her writings, but left us to fix the stigma of amalgamation where we may see fit. But the interpretation has come to light. She told it to her husband, and he made it known to Eld. Ingraham, and he divulged the secret to the writer, that Sister White had seen that God never made the Darkey." [/quote]

[quote author=Review and Herald, July 24, 1883]Singing should not be allowed to divert the mind from the hours of devotion. If one must be neglected, let it be the singing. It is one of the great temptations of the present age to carry the practice of music to extremes, to make a great deal more of music than of prayer. Many souls have been ruined here. When the Spirit of God is arousing the conscience and convicting of sin, Satan suggests a singing exercise or a singing school, which, being conducted in a light and trifling manner, results in banishing seriousness, and quenching all desire for the Spirit of God. Thus the door of the heart, which was about to be opened to Jesus, is closed and barricaded with pride and stubbornness, in many cases never again to be opened.

"By the temptations attending these singing exercises, many who were once really converted to the truth have been led to separate themselves from God. They have chosen singing before prayer, attending singing schools in preference to religious meetings, until the truth no longer exerts its sanctifying power upon their souls. Such singing is an offense to God.[/quote]



[/quote]
 
More interesting quotes from the writings of Ellen G. White:

[quote author= Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 217]The testimonies are unread and unappreciated. God has spoken to you. Light has been shining from His word and from the testimonies, and both have been slighted and disregarded.[/quote]

[quote author=Letter H-339, Dec. 26, 1904]These books contain clear, straight, unalterable truth and they should certainly be appreciated. The instruction they contain is not of human production." (Letter H-339, Dec. 26, 1904)[/quote]

[quote author=Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 35, 1906]These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the last sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation. [/quote]

[quote author= Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 63-67]You might say this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write . . . I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne[/quote]

[quote author= Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 230]God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work for the past thirty years bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil. In arraying yourself against the servants of God you are doing a work either for God or for the devil.[/quote]


[quote author=Ellen White, Messages to Young People, p. 316]As I visit the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantlepieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, 'Take these things hence.' I have been instructed that these pictures are so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should sacredly devoted to God[/quote]

[quote author=Ellen White, The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 887]We have for years been waging war with spiritual idolatry. ..... I am pained to see the photographs multiplied and hanging everywhere.[/quote]

[quote author=Ellen White, Letter to Addie and May Walling, July 21, 1886]Well, Addie ,I would be pleased to have you get your pictures taken and write to May to do the same. I will settle the bills. I want to see the faces of my children once more.[/quote]

[quote author=Ellen White, Letter 17, 1876, p. 2 (To James White, April 30, 1876)] I do not think I shall ever get a picture to equal the one Dunham has made for me. He says I had better have the large one put on a small card[/quote]

[quote author=Ellen White's Last Will and Testament]NINTH: My household furniture, dishes, carpets, pictures, photographs, and clothing, I give and bequeath in equal parts to my sons, James Edson White and William C. White.[/quote]
 
OMG! I had to bite my tongue to keep from rolling off a list of names that she could be called.
 
It seems like this group is pretty much on board with eugenics. Considering the history of eugenics, I'm highly skeptical that the promotion of such program is purely for health benefits. You can read about the SDA principles regarding eugenics here

http_://adventist.org/beliefs/other-documents/other-doc2.html

In light of the above quotations, I'd say it's more about maintaining social power constructions rather than any genuine concern for human health.
 
To answer the question: I picked "Signs of the Times" because that is the topic that concerned me: the signs of the times as in Matthew 16:

16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
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And futher Matthew 24:

24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Why? Because of the following exchanges:

Cs said:
Q: (L) The passages attributed to Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, where Jesus predicts the end of the age and his return, is that fairly accurately rendered?
A: Close.

and:

Q: (L) In the recent past you indicated that chapter 24 of
Matthew and chapter 21 of Luke, were given by Jesus after
his extended sleep state. Now, both of those chapters
refer to the present time as being like the days of Noah.
Is that a correct assessment?
A: In a sense and individual events are as yet undetermined.
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I was not at the time aware that there was a religious publication by that title though I'm not surprised since the phrase has been used by many in many ways and contexts.
 
Laura said:
To answer the question: I picked "Signs of the Times" because that is the topic that concerned me: the signs of the times as in Matthew 16:

<snip>

I'm not surprised since the phrase has been used by many in many ways and contexts.
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True dat!

And thank-you for taking the time to satisfy my curiosity.

:) :flowers:
 
What I wrote below are thoughts that crossed my mind upon initial examination of what Mrs. White wrote. Even while writing it I had so many questions. Where to post it, does this belong here or in another thread. Should I even post it at all? Lol, am I loosing my mind?

I decided in the end that because this is the thread where this thought was provoked, it should go here and that I should post it because this is the only way I can look into the mirror, no matter how fearful I am of what is shown.

I also honestly was not sure how it should have been worded. I almost felt that in some places where I wrote "I", that there should have been a "we" there instead. I instead decided to leave it as is because it would be very presumptuous of me to assume that what I am experiencing is common or even right at all.

Another thing that I felt uncomfortable writing we oddly enough the words that I used "gift" and "blessed". I just for the life of me cant come up with another term. When I write these words it almost (to my mind) makes it seem like I think I am special in some way, but this is not the case, not by a long shot. To be honest........I still dont know what the heck is going on. The only thing that I feel right now is confusion. Hopefully that will eventually ease a bit.

I as always hope that what I wrote is clear and not to "noisy". I am trying to be as honest with myself and with you as I can possibly be. It is honestly not a very comfortable feeling. Always that voice of fear whispering in the back of my mind. The difference now is that I see it and I have to have the gut's to move forward. I have to be willing to take an honest look into the mirror.

Peace

Dave.




Wow.

Most of you probably already realized this, but for some reason it just dawned on me. I'll have to go over some things again to see if it was just something that I missed at the time which is very likely because much of the stuff that I have read in the past I did not have one iota of understanding of though now it seems very clear.

Being relatively new in my understanding and reality of the programs which are running inside of us, I was looking at is in more of the emotional context of beliefs/actions developed. An example would be something like Event+Pain=Fear, and the more times we experience the event, or one similar enough, the stronger the program would be.

Although I guess I have always known it, it was never really crystallized until now. Heck, I've said it enough...."they believe that because that is what they were taught to believe". I guess a better way to look at it is that "they believe that because that is how they were PROGRAMED!!"

The implications are kind of scary now that I see it this way in a more literal reality and I can also see why it is so hard for the old beliefs/programs to be changed!!

I initially wanted to judge this woman pretty harshly simply on the basis of what was written here, but would this be right?

I wonder how much damage I myself have done in the past, not matter the good intentions involved, because of a program that until recently I never even knew existed?

Who am I to judge? I have been so judgmental throughout my entire life based on pure ignorance as to how things worked. I never recognized or even knew about the real human condition until I found this site and even then it took me quite some time to understand what was being put forth. Taking it even further, if I were not lucky enough to have a sudden flash of insight that just about brought me to my knees, I still would not understand what was being described, no matter how much I researched it. Was it just dumb luck that I had this flash or was it something more? I'm not sure I'll ever know. Programed automation's.

When we stop for a moment and look at when this was written, just what was the predominant programing of that time-period in regards to race? Pretty abysmal from my point of view. If it is also true that she was of mixed race, growing up in this time period, can we even imagine how harsh she must have been treated, through no fault of her own? Not only would she herself have suffered, but she most likely would have seen her parents suffer quite as well.

What programs would have been instilled under such conditions?

Would my programming be the same if I were in her shoes in that time period? Out of hand I would love to be able to say not a chance but the reality is that I cant say this with any sense of honest no matter how much I want to fight inside and say something differently.

It is almost as if there is a fine line being tread here. How do I separate what seems on the surface to be one entity? How do I learn to forgive the human being while being aware and objectively criticizing what I consider to be damaging programing that is/was being perpetuated. Programing that this person most likely was never even aware of....never perceived?

Can I forgive myself? Seeing what I now see residing inside of myself and understanding that my whole life has been nothing but one program running after another, not acting out of free will but instead reacting to everything as programmed to do (despite that I believed it to be different), should I hold this against myself, beating myself for the rest of my days because of something that I never even comprehended, or should I instead study my life, not passing judgment of what I did or how I acted in my ignorance?

How lucky should I consider myself to be? It almost feels like dumb luck that I had a flash of insight that allowed me to understand even in a rudimentary way some of that which has been discussed on this site and much of the research attributed to it. Yes, I may have assisted myself in getting "struck by lightning". Determination, that never ending desire to understand, the tons of material read and researched, the willingness to leave myself open to new ideas and the very hard effort of not totally closing myself off. Yes, there was a tremendous amount of work involved, yet still it feels like it is just dumb luck that got me to this place. In a way I guess you could say that I do feel blessed.

I ask this in all honesty. Can I in good conciseness pass judgment on anyone due to programming that is so well hidden it is almost incomprehensible?

The ramifications of this, at least for myself, are HUGE!!! My whole life I have been so judgmental of others. Even worse is that I felt justified in my judgment.

The problem is that I was passing judgment on the whole where as (at least it feels like) I should have been separating the BEING from the PROGRAMING.

Yes, I feel as if it is ok to look at the programing itself and if done objectively we should be able to determine if it is beneficial or harmful thus passing judgment, but what of the machine that is running the program? Is the machine blameless because in all honesty it knows no better.....it can not see its own programing...it only acts is out?

Looking at it realistically, if we were to put a number on it, what percentage of the world population would we think has even a clue, let alone a literal understanding that we are in fact programed automation's and that we can do nothing? I can just picture going out into the public domain and attempting to tell people this. I'm pretty sure I would be locked up in the nut house in short order. Not only would they not believe it, in their current condition they would not even be able to conceive of it. It would be rejected violently.

I can say this with confidence because without my having experienced it, this is how I would have reacted at worst. At best I would have just ignored it.

It is only through what basically I see as a stroke of luck that I see differently now. Without this stroke of luck I would have never, NEVER had a chance to change.

I can not judge Ellen White for anything. I have no right to judge anyone. Just as I could not help myself before, they can not help themselves now.

I also understand something else with this whole experience. I recognize that through understanding certain things, I have placed a huge burden upon myself.

I can not help but feel that through accepting this "gift" I have become more responsible for my actions. Before, no matter how differently I would have liked to believe, I was in fact nothing more than a reactive, programed machine. Now that I can see these programs as a reality, it is my responsibility to observe, examine, and if at all possible, change this programing so that IT is no longer in control. If I shy away from this responsibility, then this "gift" would have been wasted.

Anyhow, I wrote all of this because of my initial reaction to what I read in this thread regarding what Ellen White wrote. The immediate reaction was "What an ignorant racist waste of life". Judge, Jury and executioner.

Just as I dont know exactly what triggered the flash of insight into myself, I'm not quite sure what exactly allowed me to understand just how wrong I am to judge another. Probably because they are so interconnected. The ability to not only see myself in others, but the ability to see others in myself.

So much WORK to do. Is this the way it always is? Every insight, instead of decreasing the workload, increases it? I'm not sure how much more I can take to be honest. Nothing seems to be real anymore. Everything that I thought I believed to be true is now in question, all of the knowledge I thought I possessed amounts to nothing because I'm just not sure what is real anymore.

Through my head I keep hearing that old song, Row Row Row your boat. Is it true? Life is but a Dream?

I feel as if I am struggling to get my footing in a world that I dont even know and though it is very exciting, it is also terrifying beyond description. What is so terrifying is that I just dont want to take a wrong step that will send me over the edge into oblivion, never to return.

Well, I guess that there is nothing that I can do but try. There never was really any guarantee of success now was there.

Dave
 
Hi Dave,

In this case it should be noted that Ellen White was a self- proclaimed prophet who with her imprimatur as the “word of God” profoundly affected the minds of many people. Even today, generations later, there are thousands of people who dare not question anything she ever wrote, nor what their church authorities say regarding all aspects of life, lest they be condemned during a Divine “investigative judgment” dreamt up to justify an embarassment by people completely ignorant of a book of disinformation.

Should a critical mind judge such a phenomenon? Yes.

The biblical directive to “judge not lest you be judged” needs to be critically examined as well. It's been used frequently by predators to bypass the critical thinking faculties of their prey, and exists nebulously as a meme floating around in our collective heads without a true understanding of what the proverb means, which to my understanding is what this forum refers to as "external consideration."

It’s interesting, imo, that the bible has it as an address to religious people.
 
Everything that I thought I believed to be true is now in question, all of the knowledge I thought I possessed amounts to nothing because I'm just not sure what is real anymore.
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Hi Dave,

In truth this is an excellent place to be. Frightening, yes, but also so necessary for as long as the mind continues to assume the throne, if I may use such a phrase, there is no hope of coming to grips with reality. As long as our perceptions remain intact and appear to be inviolable, then selective perception reigns supreme and we already know the results of taking the false to be real. Witness the walking dead, witness the world gone mad, witness your view of the world.

Celebrate the coming realization that one has not really lost anything, per se, save illusion that has kept one in bondage.

And face the fear, that fear that no longer does one have an "identity" to call one's own, for in truth, the mystery is vast and we don't truly know what or who we are. Especially not as long as we are fixated with assuming we already know, so, again, celebrate.

:D :evil: :cool2:

As to your questions re Ellen White: You do realize there is a distinct difference between discernment and judgment?

With kind regards.
 
Herakles said:
As to your questions re Ellen White: You do realize there is a distinct difference between discernment and judgment?
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Nice point, Herakles. While it is important that we do not judge, it is important to hone our skills in discernment. I think to go from judgement to non judgement is really two sides of the same coin. Both leave us open to subjectivity and entropy. To discern however is to rightly place a value on a person or situation. To attempt to understand why someone does what they do is important, in the end, the harm done is the crux - intended or not. Discernment falls more in line with seeing things as they are (objectivity) - to take into account the whole of a situation. For what it's worth.
 
Jerry said:
Hi Dave,

In this case it should be noted that Ellen White was a self- proclaimed prophet who with her imprimatur as the “word of God” profoundly affected the minds of many people. Even today, generations later, there are thousands of people who dare not question anything she ever wrote, nor what their church authorities say regarding all aspects of life, lest they be condemned during a Divine “investigative judgment” dreamt up to justify an embarassment by people completely ignorant of a book of disinformation.

Should a critical mind judge such a phenomenon? Yes.

The biblical directive to “judge not lest you be judged” needs to be critically examined as well. It's been used frequently by predators to bypass the critical thinking faculties of their prey, and exists nebulously as a meme floating around in our collective heads without a true understanding of what the proverb means, which to my understanding is what this forum refers to as "external consideration."

It’s interesting, imo, that the bible has it as an address to religious people.
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Hi Jerry, thank you for the response.

I do understand what you are pointing to and I can see just how much damage has been done. Trust me. I am not a fan of religion.

It is almost as if I feel that there is a distinction which should be made.

If we accept the reality that we are all programmed from birth, for most without any knowledge or even comprehension of this phenomenon, then how can we cast blame without recognizing that they do not really know what they are doing, no matter how right they think themselves to be. THEY DO NOT KNOW.

I guess that I'm having a hard time because for some reason I am seeing a clearer distinction between what we would consider to be good and evil and it feels as if it is tied in with both knowledge and intent.

Did this woman act in a way BECAUSE of her programing, honestly believing that everything she said was truth and with the misguided attempt to help others, instead causing great harm?

OR,

Did this woman know and understand the "secrets of the inner workings", intentionally using this knowledge in a self serving, vile way in order to perpetuate chaos?

Unfortunately, both scenario's have the same effect. The difference is that one way is done out of pure ignorance, the other is out of pure maliciousness.

Same outcome but two very, very different intents.

I am not attempting to deny the damage done. What I am however attempting to do is see the machine for what it is/was, if that is even possible.

What if I never saw or recognized this machine for what it was? What if I was born in a more affluent position, or born more charismatic? Heck, I wanted to change the world. I saw so much wrong that I just wanted people to stop and listen to me. Arrogant? Yes. Delusional? Yes. Programming? Yes.

If things were different, is it possible that I, with purely good intentions based on faulty programing and (what seems obvious to us) delusional beliefs acted out of pure ignorance in the same way? If I understand things correctly, then in some alternate universe I have probably already done this very thing.

If I understand it correctly, we all have??!

I dont know. With the realization that we are ALL programed from birth and most of us do not even realize it, I am finding it harder to pass judgment.......something that I used to do so easily and readily.

Please understand, I am not writing this to be argumentative. As I stated, I feel as if I am trying to get a footing. A grasp of all of these new thoughts that have been bombarding me of late. My old world is gone and I'm trying to find out who I am.

Dave.
 
Herakles said:
Everything that I thought I believed to be true is now in question, all of the knowledge I thought I possessed amounts to nothing because I'm just not sure what is real anymore.
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Hi Dave,

In truth this is an excellent place to be. Frightening, yes, but also so necessary for as long as the mind continues to assume the throne, if I may use such a phrase, there is no hope of coming to grips with reality. As long as our perceptions remain intact and appear to be inviolable, then selective perception reigns supreme and we already know the results of taking the false to be real. Witness the walking dead, witness the world gone mad, witness your view of the world.

Celebrate the coming realization that one has not really lost anything, per se, save illusion that has kept one in bondage.

And face the fear, that fear that no longer does one have an "identity" to call one's own, for in truth, the mystery is vast and we don't truly know what or who we are. Especially not as long as we are fixated with assuming we already know, so, again, celebrate.

:D :evil: :cool2:

As to your questions re Ellen White: You do realize there is a distinct difference between discernment and judgment?

With kind regards.
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Lol, in regards to the fear, does it include heart palpitations, a stress headache and feeling like I was going to puke after my post?

I would like to thank both you and Truth Seeker for pointing out discernment and judgment. No I did not realize the distinction, and now I am going to have to find out what that distinction is.

Once again I thank you.

Dave.
 
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