Directionless

[the_red_jester]

Dear All

I feel that I have reached a crossroads and all the signs are in a language that I do not understand. Having wanted to work as a structural engineer for years (since the age of 12) I finally got a degree in 2006 and entered the UK workforce. I thought that all was well but after a year into the job my feelings changed quite markedly and this was reflected in my home life - heavy drug and alcohol abuse over many years finally took its toll and I fell out with my friend (and housemate) of 10 years. Since then I started reading about the more esoteric works including a lot on Buddhism and philosophy (struggling through Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is not for the faint hearted!!) and generally questioning everything and everyone around me. This lead to more questions than answers (is that not always the way...?)
For about a year I was out of work and struggling with bouts of depression - some more 'deep' than others. The light at the end of that tunnel was me finally finding new work in structural engineering in a small practice in central london. Well that job only lasted for about 2 months (up till Aug 08) till the feeling of directionlessness overcame me again.
I read Bringers of the Dawn and found parts to be really emotional but being a skeptic I am now filled with doubt and longing for some release within me to find a new direction in my life with which I can utilise my potential (perceived potential by parents and then self so again that might be misguided).
I am really just seeing if there is anyone else on the forum who has experienced similar situations and could give me some advice. I am reluctant to see a psychologist (again for that matter!) as I do not want to be put on any course of drugs which I/they do not really know the affect on the brain since and lets face it the scientists do not have a mastery of human genetics or neuroscience.

Thank you for reading and I hope I am not rambling or digressing too much - I did undertake to give a rough overview, but short of producing reams of text which would bore the best of use to tears I will leave it at that.

 

[anart]

I am really just seeing if there is anyone else on the forum who has experienced similar situations and could give me some advice. I am reluctant to see a psychologist (again for that matter!) as I do not want to be put on any course of drugs which I/they do not really know the affect on the brain since and lets face it the scientists do not have a mastery of human genetics or neuroscience.

Thank you for reading and I hope I am not rambling or digressing too much - I did undertake to give a rough overview, but short of producing reams of text which would bore the best of use to tears I will leave it at that.

Hi theredjester,

There are no quick nor easy answers in life. There are no shortcuts. It sounds as if you might be dealing with some depression and professional counseling is often a very good idea. One does not have to take the medications suggested by such therapists, 'talk' cognitive therapy can be quite beneficial without medication. Since this is a public forum, there is a limit to what we can do. What we can do and what we, in fact, do is present an enormous amount of information and resources with which one can learn more about themselves - enough to begin to focus on the Work - which is based on the work of GI Gurdjieff.

At this point, since you are new to this forum, I strongly suggest that you take the time to read the material provided here and on the related websites. You are the only one with the power to change your life and this cannot happen if you are lost in dreams or depression - but first step first. I also suggest that you investigate the suggested reading list that is posted in the 'books' section of the forum - especially those that deal with psychology.

 

[Johnno]

Your struggle sounds similar to what I was going through some years ago minus the drugs. Psychological help can help find some answers in the meantime, it will help to find some sort of answers.

The disappointment in life can also be summed up below.

This is from Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous which is on the reading list.

"How can we recognize people who are able to come to the work?" asked one of those present.

"How to recognize them is another question," said G. "To do this it is necessary to a certain extent 'to be.' But before speaking of this we must establish what kind of people are able to come to the work and what kind are not able.

"You must understand that a man should have, first, a certain preparation, certain luggage. He should know what it is possible to know through ordinary channels about the ideas of esotericism, about hidden knowledge, about possibilities of the inner evolution of man, and so on. What I mean is that these ideas ought not to appear to him as something entirely new. Otherwise it is difficult to speak to him.

It is useful also if he has at least some scientific or philosophical preparation. If a man has a good knowledge of religion, this can also be useful. But if he is tied to religious forms and has no understanding of their essence, he will find it very difficult. In general, if a man knows but little, has read but little, has thought but little, it is difficult to talk to him. If he has a good essence there is another way for him without any talks at all, but in this case he has to be obedient, he has to give up his will. And he has to come to this also in some way or other.

It can be said that there is one general rule for everybody. In order to approach this system seriously, people must be disappointed, first of all in themselves, that is to say, in their powers, and secondly in all the old ways. A man cannot feel what is most valuable in the system unless he is disappointed in what he has been doing, disappointed in what he has been searching for.

If he is a scientist he should be disappointed in his science If he is a religious man he should be disappointed in his religion If he is a politician he should be disappointed in politics If he is a philosopher he should be disappointed in philosophy If he is a theosophist he should be disappointed in theosophy If he is an occultist he should be disappointed in occultism And so on

But you must understand what this means I say for instance that a religious man should be disappointed in religion This does not mean that he should lose his faith On the contrary, it means being 'disappointed' in the teaching and the methods only, realizing that the religious teaching he knows is not enough for him, can lead him nowhere All religious teachings, excepting of course the completely degenerated religions of savages and the invented religions and sects of modern times, consist of two parts, the visible and the hidden

To be disappointed in religion means being disappointed in the visible, and to feel the necessity for finding the hidden and unknown part of religion

To be disappointed in science does not mean losing interest in knowledge It means being convinced that the usual scientific methods are not only useless but lead to the construction of absurd and self contradictory theories, and, having become convinced of this, to begin to search for others

To be disappointed in philosophy means being convinced that ordinary philosophy is merely —as it is said in the Russian proverb—pouring from one empty vessel into another, and that people do not even know what philosophy means although true philosophy also can and should exist

To be disappointed in occultism does not mean losing faith in the miraculous, it is merely being convinced that ordinary, accessible, and even advertised occultism, under whatever name it may pass, is simply charlatanism and self deception
and that, although somewhere something does exist, everything that man knows or is able to learn in the ordinary way is not what he needs

So that, no matter what he used to do before, no matter what used to interest him, if a man has arrived at this state of disappointment in ways that are possible and accessible, it is worth while speaking to him about our system and then he may come to the work.

But if he continues to think that he is able to find anything on his former way, or that he has not as yet tried all the ways, or that he can, by himself, find anything or do anything, it means that he is not ready I do not mean that he must throw up everything he used to do before This is entirely unnecessary On the contrary, it is often even better if he continues to do what he used to do But he must realize that it is only a profession, or a habit, or a necessity In this case it is another matter, he will then be able not to 'identify'

 

[the_red_jester]

Thanks you everyone for the replies - they are helpful.
I did undertake CBT before (actually some of the content in Bringers of the Dawn points towards a CBT style in so far as to acknowledge all of your emotions and to think about the thought processes behind them) but I went with a closed mind and hence found it not very useful. But that was many years ago now and my mother (a psychologist - not clinical though more occupational and human resource management) suggested that it might help me to go to some CBT sessions again. I feel that it would be more beneficial now in helping to draw out my feelings better.
Also this might be slightly off topic and I do apologise in advance - has anyone undergone past-life regression hypnosis to help with understanding oneself completely? or is this just a product of all the new age hype? I am a bit skeptical although I firmly believe in reincarnation and thus could see a benefit from exploring my past-lives. Any thoughts...?

 

[Jacques]

Also this might be slightly off topic and I do apologise in advance - has anyone undergone past-life regression hypnosis to help with understanding oneself completely? or is this just a product of all the new age hype? I am a bit skeptical although I firmly believe in reincarnation and thus could see a benefit from exploring my past-lives. Any thoughts...?

Hi the_red_jester

One of the first way to know if members of this group have already talked about one subject is to use the "Search" function.
You will be surprised to discover that a lot of subjects have been discussed.

And doing so, if you have any questions after that on that subject, you can post them on an appropriate thread or a new one if there is none.

We try to keep the discussion on a subject in the same thread.

 

[the_red_jester]

My apologies for digressing off the subject. Guess I will need to start a new thread on the topic since the search function did not turn up any hits over 40%

 

[anart]

Actually, it seems that instead of starting a new thread asking these questions that won't really get you anywhere anyway - why not actually begin reading the works upon which this forum is based. As has been stated - there are NO shortcuts. Please take the time necessary to at least begin to delve into the material that we discuss here, especially the psychology and works directly related to GI Gurdjieff's work (Johnno's response should give you a glimpse). If you are sincere in looking for answers and a 'way out', then it will help if you stop looking for quick fixes and answers outside yourself. The material is here, just waiting for you to put in the time and effort necessary to grasp and apply it.

My apologies for digressing off the subject. Guess I will need to start a new thread on the topic since the search function did not turn up any hits over 40%

 

[the_red_jester]

I am not looking for any quick fixes, merely asking about other peoples experiences to make some semblance of mine so as to help me with a good starting point. I am well aware of the literature and do intend to read that which I have not read to date as and when I have money to afford the books and money for printer ink since I find it hard to read reams of webpages.

 

[anart]

Perhaps reading this thread would also give you some insight. http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9741.msg70844#msg70844

 

[Buddy]

Hi the_red_jester.
There have been times in my life when I would have identified with the title of your thread, however the specifics of MY life would hardly be meaningful to you, I think.

Since you asked in this forum, and this Work is based on GI Gurdjieff, I echo the suggestions by anart, including the observation about possible depression.

You say you find it hard to read reams of webpages. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here, but I think that if, for whatever reason, you can't read the recommended threads and/or other books, you should reconsider looking into cognitive (psycho)therapy.

I say that as a way of acknowledging and parroting what Laura recommended to someone who needed some stabilizing intervention:

I need help and advice on someone or somewhere to turn to...

...Look for a good cognitive therapist and make an appointment as soon as possible.

As concerning the issue of 'cognitive' vs. other forms of therapy, Laura posted an article that seems to indicate that CBT may offer the better benefit.
RE:

[...]
Full article, with extensive documentation, accessible at:

http://psychrights.org/index.htm

[...]
At the end of 16 weeks (in a study comparing cognitive behavior therapy,
interpersonal therapy, the tricyclic antidepressant imipramine and
placebo) there were no significant differences among treatments,
including placebo plus clinical management, for the less severely
depressed and functionally impaired patients. Only the severely
depressed patients fared better on a tricyclic than on placebo. However,
at the end of 18 months, even this minimal benefit disappeared.
Stay-well rates were best for the cognitive behavior group (30%) and
poorest for the imipramine group (19%).
[...]

I don't wish to imply that your situation is anything like the person to whom Laura was talking, merely that it may be possible that some people may benefit from approaching the Work from a little bit of 'pre-work', such as what was indicated in the thread:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=5758.msg46009#msg46009
where Laura said:

"It seems quite obvious that any individual who wishes to pursue esoteric studies ought to have a clean and fully functional and most of all HEALTHY psyche before he goes wandering off into unknown realms. After all, if your psychological state is such that you cannot deal effectively with your everyday life, how can you possibly trust such a psychological state not to mislead you in studies where you have fewer solid landmarks or feedback mechanisms to guide you?"


At any rate, here's a few things you may already be aware of that could serve as useful reminders if needed.

According to: _http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/about-cognitive-psychotherapy/,

About Cognitive Psychotherapy
By Michael Herkov, Ph.D
December 10, 2006...

Cognitive therapy is based on the theory that much of how we feel is determined by what we think. Disorders, such as depression, are believed to be the result of faulty thoughts and beliefs. By correcting these inaccurate beliefs, the person’s perception of events and emotional state improve.
Research on depression has shown that people with depression often have inaccurate beliefs about themselves, their situation and the world.]
A list of common cognitive errors and real life examples is listed below:

• Personalization — relating negative events to oneself when there is no basis.
Example — When walking down the hallway at work, John says hello to the company CEO. The CEO does not respond and keeps walking. John interprets this as the CEO’s lack of respect for him. He gets demoralized and feels rejected. However, the CEO’s behavior may have nothing to do with John. He may have been preoccupied about an upcoming meeting, or had a fight with his wife that morning. If John considered that the CEO’s behavior may not be related to him personally, he is likely to avoid this negative mood.

• Dichotomous Thinking — seeing things as black and white, all or none. This is usually detected when a person can generate only two choices in a situation.
Example — Mary is having a problem at work with one of her supervisors who she believes is treating her badly. She convinces herself that she has only two options: tell her boss off or quit. She is unable to consider a host of other possibilities such as talking to her boss in a constructive way, seeking guidance from a higher supervisor, contacting employee relations, etc.

• Selective Abstraction — focusing only on certain aspects of a situation, usually the most negative.
Example — During a staff meeting at work, Susan presents a proposal for solving a problem. Her solution is listened to with great interest and many of her ideas are applauded. However, at one point her supervisor points out that her budget for the project appears to be grossly inadequate. Susan ignores the positive feedback she has received and focuses on this one comment. She interprets it as a lack of support from her boss and a humiliation in front of the group.

• Magnification-Minimization — distorting the importance of particular events.
Example — Robert is a college student who wants to go to medical school. He knows that his college grade point average will be used by schools during the admission process. He receives a D in a class on American History. He becomes demoralized thinking now that his lifelong dream to be a physician is no longer possible.

Cognitive therapists work with the person to challenge thinking errors like those listed above. By pointing out alternative ways of viewing a situation, the person’s view of life, and ultimately their mood will improve. Research has shown that cognitive therapy can be as effective as medication in the long-term treatment of depression.