C's on Buddhism?

the 4th way

Also, I had never heard of the concept of increasing free choices in Buddha's teaching either. Interesting.
 
the 4th way

Novelis said:
Thus, if the individual uses this knowledge to help humanity while remaining in it, the knowledge can be put to good use; it's for this reason that I respect masters of the past that built the well I can now drink from.
Click to expand...
Interesting post, Novelis.
In my opinion, what you mention here regarding buddhism, can be mentioned regarding any other system/religion/school/knowledge/Masters/etc.
Atomic power comes to mind: It is a fantastic source of energy, and an avenue to free energy for the whole population of the planet and a great solution for many problems... if the individual use this knowledge to help humanity. But it is not used to that end. Like with many system/religion/school/knowledge/Masters/etc, it is used to destroy, to control.
The fault is not on the atomic energy, neither on buddhism or any other system/religion/school/knowledge/Masters/etc. As you remark, it is the individual the responsable one, the active one, the intelligent one.
"I am the source", sais Merleu-Ponty mening it is all due to me, the individual. I am the origin. I am the cause. I am the action. I am the motor.
True: Ancient oriental masters got beyond. As they came-back, they showed the way. Maybe this fashion was the signs of the times, but I belive the true ways are timeless. I wonder: Is it all about knowledge? And I think it ain't all about gatherting knowledge and "secrets", but about the factible operations former to that.
Knowledge protects, and through false knowledge we are slaved; through true knowledge we are NOT liberated: There is the need of something else to that accumulation, and that is, precisely, the action: Contundent action in order not to transform the world, but in order to penetrate the world and act in consecuence -and such actions, in its turn, do can change the world, but this is an effect of the individual.
So you see, it is my opinion the terrain of the life is on this earth. As Garcia Marquez said: "Why to go out and conquer other worlds, when we have not conquered this world?".
Even the former is corect only "if the individual uses this knowledge to help humanity", and this is precisely the problem: To attain this "state". And, to get there, is an adventure. This is the primal function of knowledge, I think.
A further objective would be to comunicate, by encarnating a "daily life example". This objective is failed if one is on the beyond. So one needs to come back and stay: How else to use knowledge to help humanity?
I am talking af is I knew: I don't. This is what I think, and I submit this to network.
Great text j0da, thanks.
 
the 4th way

Obviously Castaneda, Gurdjieff, Mouravieff propose the same Graal : fully developing our physical, intellectual and emotional capacities and then harmonizing / uniting them. Then something greater than the addition of the different elements appears the "I", the Nagual, ...

Does Buddhism efficiently serve this goal ?

Despite Buddhism heterogeneity (different meditation technics, mantras, festings, diets, rituals, inconographies,...), the core of those different buddhisms might help to reach some constructive intermediate goals :

* realising that there is not only the mind / the self
* reducing the overhelming importance of the intellec

Though, I din't find much in Buddhism about

* action / physical dimension
* development of the left side (emotional dimension)

The escaping question is central in Buddhism and has even lead to a conceptual schism : the little vehicle VS the great vehicle. In the little vehicle approach the objective is to save your butt, to leave the infinite cycle of reincarnations (STS ?). In the great vehicle approach, the first part is the same but once you are free from karmic bonds, you have to "stay" and help others to escape (STO ?)

Hess describes this in "Siddharta". The last chapters show Siddharta as having reached the "I" but he remains incarnated and his daily job is to be a boatman. He helps people to go from one side of the river to the other one.

Materiality negation dimension of Buddhism can be misleading. The human being is the conjonction of spirit and matter. Negating the matter is as sacrificial as negating the spirit. The way of the middle respects, develops and harmonises both.
 
it seems like there is a definite bias, in terms of the wave articles, c's discussions.. towards judeo-christian myths and figures ie. christ, fall of man, etc.. just curious if any of the myths of buddha or other eastern mythological figures are addressed.
 
There's at least one other way to find out: Keep reading :)
 
There's plenty of translated literature available, many valuable insights and esoteric ideas remain IMO.
The Chinese myth of creation is absolutely fascinating, just to name one.

I haven't come across that many references of the C's talking about it myself, there are many parallels between western and eastern myths, since a lot of it shares the same source, it might be unnecessary to get your hands dirty searching for answers in a foreign place when the answers could be obtained right here. Maybe the C's thought it was best to steer clear of certain material, maybe Laura herself has a natural disposition towards understanding the material she covered, and the C's guided her towards her own seeking, knowing that the ground they covered would be all that is needed for those who follow. IMO there is certainly more that could be covered other than the material on this site, so if you want to learn it, if you see a gap, then by all means, GO FOR IT!

There are good translators out there who have made good contributions towards understanding the East; Richard Wilhelm is a good one for example.
Beware though, I've come across many translators who had completely missed the point, one sentence, interpreted badly can become the perfect tool for disinformation by STS forces. You must understand, it's ground that hasn't been covered thoroughly and remains mysterious, with many questions still left un-answered, if you want to cover this ground, proceed with absolute caution, I would suggest you first learn and understand the method of which Laura uses to separate truth from lies in her own work, then apply that knowledge to whatever ground you'd like to cover.
I think applying Laura's approach towards your own research is an excellent model, a primary example of how to be scientific in your investigations towards the unknown. Priceless especially for noticing the new age/COINTELPRO pitfalls set up just for you...
Hope this is useful, good luck.
 
I'm a lurker who enjoys browsing the various SOTT websites but I rarely raise my head. My comments have more to do with yoga, but they're within the general scope of the thread.

In ISOTM Gurdjieff, talking about his travels in southern India, estimated that one out of twelve temples actually had a school associated with it, and that the rest were just blindly going through the rituals. (It's been a while since I read ISOTM, so I'm paraphrasing.) That was 100 or more years ago. I'm very well acquainted with a Jain yogi whose opinion about the current situation in India is even bleaker than G's. He doesn't put a number on it, he just said that there are very few swamis/yogis/gurus who are self-realized - to use their language - but they get the title when they're done with their training one way or the other. Something akin to G's teachings has been taught in certain places there and in other places around the world for thousands of years, but long ago has been lost to most of those groups it was once available to.

I imagine something similar holds true for other teachings as they are popularly taught.

Perhaps the calibration on my BS detector is too sensitive, but it sure gets triggered when I read what most authors/teachers have to say.

K
 
Buddhism and Anatta

Hello,

I'm pretty surprised that Buddhism is not much spoke about on Cassiopaea and SOTT forum.

Because Buddhism says a lot on self-observation, purification, etc.

So I thought, maybe, there is some contradictions between what C's says and what Buddhism teach.

One thing that is perhaps is contradictory, it's the Anatta doctrice, which is the doctrine of Non-Self.

Buddhism deny the idea of "Atman" - a eternal and permanent "Higher Self". The teachings of Buddha says very clearly that the idea of a Self, even "Higher", is a false and imaginary belief that don't correspond with anything real.
The belief is, Buddha says, the reason of dangerous thoughts of "me", "my", and egoistic desirs, attachment, hatred, arrogance, impurity, etc.

Walpola Rahula, in "L'enseignement du Bouddha", says :

There is two ideas, psychologically rooted in the individual : protection of self and conservation of self. For the protection of self, man created God, which he depend for is own protection, safeguard and security, as a child depend of his parents. For the conservation of self, man conceived the idea of an eternal Self, or Atman, which will live eternally. In his ignorance, his weakness, his fear and desir, man needs this two things to reassure and confort himself; that's why he cling to it so fanatically and with doggedness.
Click to expand...
 
Buddhism and Anatta

Have you read Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson by Gurdjieff?
 
Buddhism and Anatta

Apologies, I thought that if you had read it, you would understand the reference. Gurdjieff's discussion of Buddhism, that is.
 
Buddhism and Anatta

Okay. The stance of Gurdjieff denies the solitude, reclusion, etc. (All buddhists don't choose to isolate themselves as well). But how this explain the concept of non-self in buddhism ? Anatta theory isn't valid ? Consciousness is more than an roaming cluster of forces as described in buddhism ? Perhaps buddhism doesn't call a 4D consciousness "consciousness" or "higher self" ?
 
Excerpts from Maximilian Sandor

Excerpt from "The Litle purple Notebook" or how to escape from this universe by Maximilian Sandor


A Summary of Gotamo's Principle in Today's Language

The Person and his Path
Gotamo Siddharto, a local Prince in India 2,500 years ago, after going through most of the many spiritual and physical exercises that were taught at his time, decided to try a radically different approach and eventually succeeded in waking up from the dream of life to a state beyond this Universe.
At first, he did not want to share his insights because the truth he perceived was, even though very basic and simple, extremely subtle as well and therefore very difficult to teach to others.

However, someone convinced him ultimately that there would be indeed a few human beings around who would be ready and able to understand what we would have to say. For the sake of those few, he proceeded to teach the next forty to fifty years before his physical body expired.


The Special Approach of Gotamo
Gotamo asserted a 'state' that is fundamentally independent of the system of this Universe. Since labels can only be attached to phenomena that are within a system, there cannot possibly be a name for this state and even classifying it as a 'state' is therefore, strictly seen, incorrect. Likewise, whoever is able to reach this 'state', cannot be labelled either.

The only possible approach to this 'state' is an _indirect way_. Therefore, Gotamo taught a way of thinking in exclusive terms rather than the common way of thinking in identities.

For example, contemplating 'self' is necessarily an identifying and self-reflexive way of thinking and it cannot possibly lead to the 'way out'. In the contrary, since thinking in identities is the very condition that is holding Beings in this Universe in the first place, self-reflexive thinking will INCREASE the bonds that prevent a person from being able to have the choice of withdrawing from this world.


The Four Special Truths

Everything Gotamo said must be seen in the context of this very special approach which was (and still is) radically different from other philosphical or religious approaches.

He summarized his message in 'Four Special Truths':

1. The truth that there is a 'state' _beyond_ this Universe
and that everything that can be perceived is 'not-this-state':
"the truth of dukkha".

2. The truth about how a Being alienates itself and becomes
trapped in a Universe. Or, in a non-identifying description:
the truth about how the condition of 'dukkha' comes about.

3. The truth of the possibility of a 'Way Out', or again, in
non-identifying words, 'the truth of resolving 'dukkha'

4. The truth that there is a way to the 'way out', or,
how to go about it in resolving 'dukkha'.

While Gotamo recognized that there are more ways to reach the 'state beyond' other than the one he taught, he postulated that the 'Four Special Truths' are so basic that they must be part of any other approach as well.

In this light, the 'Four Special Truths' are of paramount importance and could therefore be seen as the hallmark of the validity of any system that is pursuing the goal of liberation.


The Immediate Goal
One feature of Gotamo's teaching that is makes if significantly different from most other applied philosophies or religions is that it is expected to yield concrete and conclusive results during _this_ lifetime. His message was 'Come and see for yourself! Become free HERE AND NOW!"

Accordingly, a clearly recognizable landmark is required to determine if success occurred or not.

This landmark was described by Gotamo as 'entering the stream that leads to the state beyond' (Sotapanno).

Reaching this level was the goal he set for his audience. It is the on-ramp for the 'Liberation Superhighway'.

He outlined three levels after this, depending on the speed at which the final goal, complete liberation, can be expected to be obtained. But since reaching the level of a 'Sotapanno' is a definite point from which a person cannot sink into a lasting delusion anymore, the upper three levels are more for the record than goals in their own sake.

The reason why a 'Sotapanno' cannot sink back into delusion is that reaching this level is based on surpassing a threshold of understanding of the non-self character of the world that makes it practically impossible that the 'Sotapanno' could ever fall back into thinking in identities.

This and the other levels may be reached without the person being yet aware of it. Gotamo therefore added an entry level to each of the four levels. In this classification of eight levels, the second level obviously is the one that should be achieved because it includes the full awareness and certainty of the achievement of the first level.

Again, recognizing that the world is non-self, in other words, resolving conscious, unconscious and superconscious identities is the threshold process that will yield the 'entering of the stream'.

There are two basic routes to this: the intellectual and the intuitive route. Only the first is 'guaranteed to work for everybody', according to Gotamo. The latter, the path of meditation, is depending on the talents of the individual and furthermore carries a considerable danger of being misleading because of the multitude and strangeness of perceptions one can be exposed to in its pursuit.

In praxis, the route of an individual will be a combination of both immediate insight and abstract reasoning. This is illustrated by Gotamo's observation that both abilities of a person are culminating at the fourth, top level, of the path.

Since each individual is different from every other individual, every route will necessarily be unique.

The goal of 'entering the stream' can be reached by anybody and it can be reached here and now, whatever the circumstances of life may be in the moment.

There is one, and only one, condition that can prevent a human being from 'entering the stream':

believing than an outside condition or someone other
than oneself could bring about liberation for oneself

It should be noted that 'entering the stream' is about gaining the ability to make free choices. It is most certainly not about rejecting life itself or conditions of life. Rejection or suppression is adding a new layer to the original attachment without resolving the underlying issue.

The freedom of choice is the most valuable ability a human being has. Animals as well as beings without a body cannot develop this ability during their respective lifetimes. Within the sphere of human life, however, everybody can increase the ability to make choices. 'Entering the stream' is open to every human being, regardless of gender, race, age, wealth, health, and even education.


What has happened to Gotamo's teachings?
At the core of Gotamo's 'very special, subtle' teachings is the strict avoidance of 'thinking in identities'.

Thinking in identities, the root of delusion in the first place, is so deeply engraved in human thinking that Gotamo's own prediction was that the special characteristics of his teachings would last "...not more than 500 years, if at all that long..." before being lost.

Indeed, not long after his physical body quit its functions, his followers started to think in identities again. Instead of respecting his expressive request to not to think of him in any identifying terms, he was soon labelled 'Suddho' ('Someone who is safe') and, later on, 'Buddho' ('One who woke up').

A couple of centuries later the first 'Buddha' sculptures were set up, marking the final dissolution of the original and special features of his teachings in a way that could not be more dramatic and revealing.


Where to go from here...
Gotamo restricted himself to teaching only the most basic principles. He rejected the use of the scholarly Sanskrit language and spoke in a local dialect that could be understood by common people. As a direct result of his basic approach of avoiding to think in identities, he used daily life examples rather than creating codified assertions.

The original reports of his dialogues, compiled against his will some years after his departure, are preserved in the books of the so-called 'Pali Canon' which is available on the Internet and on CD-ROM. They contain a wealth of examples and practical applications but there are only a few translations widely available, all of which suffer from the problems in translating unique philosophical concepts, and especially the very specific approach of Gotamo.

But there are now also many publications about modern philosophies and technologies dealing with the mind. Many of them are copies or variations of ancient techniques but some appear to be rather unique and new. There is no reason why they could not be employed for the purpose at hand.

Whether practical applications and techniques are being extracted from Pali sources or retrieved from modern approaches, they can be examined for compliance with the basic principles of Gotamo.

The question "Is non-identical thinking involved?" is sometimes difficult to answer. But from the central principles, tests can be developped which may be easier to apply.

To name a view:


are identities being created/affirmed or are they being resolved?
does the scope of perception become increasingly broad or more limited?
does functional understanding grow or are dogmatic assertions established?
are rituals involved in the process?
is the independency of the truth seeker being emphazised or is there a dependence on persons or objects?
are there any belief systems attached?
are there distinct levels of achievement or are the goals left unspecified?
are their any traces of bi-valued (black-and-white) thinking?
are the results expected to be immediate or are they claimed to occur in a future life?
etc. (a more detailed checklist will be part of the book)
A technique or a system of techniques that passes tests like the ones above can be expected to lead towards the goal of complete liberation.

Any such procedure or insight can also be expected to be highly beneficial for the well-being of the person doing it - no matter if the person shares the ultimate goal of Gotamo or not.

This makes Gotamo's principles an invaluable tool for everybody and at any stage of spiritual growth.



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