Conversation between i’s

[agni]

Yesterday, as I was driving through neighborhood, a person driving behind me got pissed off, apparently for the reason that I was going to complete stop at stop signs. He was driving behind for several blocks. As there was time for him to turn, he aggressively threw couple of phrases at me and seemed really pissed off. I did not respond, and pretty much ignored it on the spot. Well.. that's what I thought initially.

When I got home I was not feeling at ease. In fact I was physically shaking. I felt anger running through me, that I got yelled at for no reason. Then I observed the following conversation between "i's"

(I will number my "i's" for an ease of reading.)

1) i was yelled at unjustly, i am hurting. i am angry. i did nothing wrong, i am concerned with safety of others.

2) People are STS. You are no exception. It's to be expected. (I will silence the pain my own way)

1) it does not help No.2. I am still hurting & angry. besides, i fear of possible retaliation, you do live in gangster wanna be neighborhood, remember?

2) You do not know that (about retaliation). Why would you even think that ? Do not assume. I need a break. i do not think i am thinking straight, i think you are way over-reacting and too pumped up.

3) just shut up, all of you. i am tired. Forget what you feel. Don't come back to it and it will go away. Do something else.

2) Right... you don't have enough things buried inside already, don't you ? They do affect your behavior whether you see it or not. Why not to calm down for now and revisit issue little bit later.

(break for couple of hours)

2) Okay, let's see what has caused such reaction…

4) First of all, before you address any of this, remember how you have behaved yesterday, when you were in a hurry, and a person driving in front of you was driving too slow ?

2) Indeed ! Good point, some "i" felt frustrated, though "i" did not choose to express it verbally. But i see how my behavior is not any different from the person that yelled at me in frustration.

4) Okay... why did you feel angry when someone yelled at you, but you did not question your own frustration when you were driving behind a "slow" person ?

2) Ha-haha.. True. Because i care only about myself, not others.

4) What are your thoughts on that ?

2) I don't quite sure what to say, besides that i have a lot of things to work on. But I can say for sure, I probably would not even question my own behavior if the person would not have yelled at me.. making me feel this way.

4) did he or did you make yourself feel this way ? Don't forget about the situation... It's not closed case yet. Keep thinking and revisiting it until all of "i" understand and in peace about it.

2) will do. thank you i's for helping me see some things that would probably would go un-noticed for a some time.

…..

The way i see who the "i's" are:

1) Ego/Self-importance
2) Lower intellectual
3) Not sure. Seems to be some "i" that does not care about the rest.
4) Either Lower intellectual talking to itself or is it consciousness ? It seems to be an some form of "observer", that is not hurting or needs anything.

There are several questions:

What no.3 might be ?
What no.4 might be ?
Do you think no.1 & 2 identified correctly ?
No.1 became silent and appears to be "less hurt" after conversation ended. Was it usurped by Lower intellectual center ?
No.3 did not show up anymore.

Do I show any signs of personality disorder ?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

The way i see who the "i's" are:

1) Ego/Self-importance

Yes, this shows itself in your reaction to an external social influence.

2) Lower intellectual

Yes, this shows itself in your intellect engaging in thought loops with "no escape".

4) Either Lower intellectual talking to itself or is it consciousness ? It seems to be an some form of "observer", that is not hurting or needs anything.

Consciousness always chooses a higher path. I would not call your thinking consciousness, but perhaps the beginnings of consciousness.

Do I show any signs of personality disorder ?

It depends on who would be diagnosing you. I'm sure there are plenty of psychiatrists that would want nothing more than to drug you up and tell you have some personality disorder. Sounds to me like you have intellectual and emotional overexcitability and your thought processes tend to turn around on themselves. Some comments below:

1) i was yelled at unjustly, i am hurting. i am angry. i did nothing wrong, i am concerned with safety of others.

You were right to feel some injustice, but your reaction is still egocentric and highly influenced by external influences.

2) People are STS. You are no exception. It's to be expected. (I will silence the pain my own way)

1) it does not help No.2. I am still hurting & angry. besides, i fear of possible retaliation, you do live in gangster wanna be neighborhood, remember?

Your inner conflict is still a reflection of this thought loop with no escape. A part of you "knows" that people are STS and we cannot expect them to have an understanding of themselves, and yet this part is equal to or less than the strength of the part of you that still feels slighted and till fears for the preservation of his body. Your physical comfort/preservation and your need to be accepted by your environment still hold a great influence over you.

2) You do not know that (about retaliation). Why would you even think that ? Do not assume. I need a break. i do not think i am thinking straight, i think you are way over-reacting and too pumped up.

3) just shut up, all of you. i am tired. Forget what you feel. Don't come back to it and it will go away. Do something else.

Here your start thinking for the sake of thinking, which is the common response in someone with an active intellectual center spurred by an emotional reaction.

2) Right... you don't have enough things buried inside already, don't you ? They do affect your behavior whether you see it or not. Why not to calm down for now and revisit issue little bit later.

(break for couple of hours)

2) Okay, let's see what has caused such reaction…

4) First of all, before you address any of this, remember how you have behaved yesterday, when you were in a hurry, and a person driving in front of you was driving too slow ?

2) Indeed ! Good point, some "i" felt frustrated, though "i" did not choose to express it verbally. But i see how my behavior is not any different from the person that yelled at me in frustration.

Looks like your intellect found a "way out", which is empathy through introspection. How can you blame this man for doing something you have done repeatedly? How can you expect him to act the way YOU think he should act? Answer: you can't. However, you CAN understand WHY he behaved as he did, why you reacted the way you did, and you can choose a HIGHER path, one in which you choose to leave behind a part of you with which you no longer wish to identify.

4) Okay... why did you feel angry when someone yelled at you, but you did not question your own frustration when you were driving behind a "slow" person ?

Why indeed? It is because when you are in a completely egocentric state you are asleep, internal considering, non-external considering.

2) Ha-haha.. True. Because i care only about myself, not others.

4) What are your thoughts on that ?

2) I don't quite sure what to say, besides that i have a lot of things to work on. But I can say for sure, I probably would not even question my own behavior if the person would not have yelled at me.. making me feel this way.

Are you satisfied with this being the case? That you are just like him?

4) did he or did you make yourself feel this way ? Don't forget about the situation... It's not closed case yet. Keep thinking and revisiting it until all of "i" understand and in peace about it.

Or you can use the shock of seeing that you are as self-serving and egocentric as the other guy to prompt growth. There is no "peace" if you want to change.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Hi Agni, no offense, but I thought that was funny how you wrote it all out, and it does click with how I might think through something that bugs me. One of my favorite stand-up comedians, George Carlin, said this during a stand-up routine:

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anybody driving faster is a maniac?

It's funny how simple and true that is, and I think it is interesting to contemplate it. I think the good thing here is that you're self-remembering and analyzing your own thoughts, feelings, and actions/reactions. Another good thing that is that you were able to do a fundamental step in the Work - external consideration. You put yourself in someone else's shoes. And that doesn't mean he was justified in what he did, but at least you considered his viewpoint as part of your analysis and as a result were able to understand where he's coming from. It seems that doing that instantly changed the "mood" of your analysis, or at least that's the impression I got. You went from being frustrated/angry to being much more calm and understanding. So external consideration resulted in knowledge which resulted in protection (but post-factum).

My thought here is - if you remember to do this more often, you will get better at doing this not just post-factum but in real time, which is really what G meant by "self remembering", osit. And that will give you power over yourself as you will See a situation for what it is as it happens, and act appropriately instead of being manipulated into reacting in a harmful (to you and others) way.

Also I think you used your anger/frustration in a healthy/productive way since you channeled it into "getting to the bottom of all this" rather than into an even more subjective and self-centered perspective, which is what most people tend to do when angry. Anyway, those are some of the things that came to mind. Also, I'd be careful about numbering your i's as it's probably easy to mix up the numbers and the i's. I'd observe the i's but not assign labels to them and assume that you're properly identifying and separating them each time. Your i's are not just divided into the broad categories you identified them as, since they come from many personalities and many beliefs and programs which really don't have a name/label, they just are what they are.

 

[D69]

Conversation between i’s

whoaa , this quote is perfect !

George Carlin wrote:

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anybody driving faster is a maniac?

totally perfect !
I really learned a lot from this convo !

 

[GRiM]

Conversation between i’s

Thanks agni for sharing, hkoehli and ScioAgapeOmnis for the great relies!

 

[clearmiddle]

How interesting that this post occurred this morning, just as I was driving, noticing something, and thinking of a question about it. :)

I may be getting ahead of myself, but I am wondering about non-verbal I's that I sometimes feel, especially when driving but at other times too. There is one that I have noticed a great many times over many years. It feels kind of like an emotional lurch--I feel it in my stomach, almost as if the car had slowed suddenly (if I was driving). One example of a situation that might trigger the feeling is if someone pulls out on the road and then moves very slowly, for no apparent reason, forcing me to slow down, though not suddenly. It is an internal lurch, not a physical one. Most of the time I don't say anything, and it isn't too unusual to discover that there was a reason the other person did what they did that I couldn't see at first, but the original feeling is clearly beyond my control, and there is upset behind it.

What I am wondering is what centers can such feelings come from? The obvious answer would be the emotional center, but I am not sure. I can see my "state" changing, but I can't always tell what centers are involved, even if I limit it to just three, especially if I am busy at the moment--driving a car, for instance. As I think about it now, this particular feeling might occur when activity that my moving center is controlling is disrupted because of something unexpected, but it also involves anticipating all the problems I might be facing next since something unpredictable is now in progress. That could involve all the centers at once.

Does it matter if I identify the specific center(s) or not?

 

[agni]

hkoehli, thank you for digesting it in such great detail. You are right on the spot about intellectual and emotional overexcitability (especially for emotions, it's almost up to an extreme, for being a male, I have no problem crying for an example, that not to say it's wrong). It really amazing how someone you do not know can pin point these things right away.

1) i was yelled at unjustly, i am hurting. i am angry. i did nothing wrong, i am concerned with safety of others.

You were right to feel some injustice, but your reaction is still egocentric and highly influenced by external influences.

Exactly(as far as egocentrism). Aka look at me, I am caring, how anyone dares not to respect that or thinks otherwise. Egocentrism at it's best!

2) People are STS. You are no exception. It's to be expected. (I will silence the pain my own way)

1) it does not help No.2. I am still hurting & angry. besides, i fear of possible retaliation, you do live in gangster wanna be neighborhood, remember?

A part of you "knows" that people are STS and we cannot expect them to have an understanding of themselves, and yet this part is equal to or less than the strength of the part of you that still feels slighted and till fears for the preservation of his body. Your physical comfort/preservation and your need to be accepted by your environment still hold a great influence over you.

The part that "knows" is so small and weak, that it faints right away even if it sees something scary that probably has no grounds for it. I thought part of me is not that concerned about physical comfort/preservation, yet it got clearly revealed by being put on a "spot". I tricked myself again. It shows how important is to attend lessons life presents.

2) Right... you don't have enough things buried inside already, don't you ? They do affect your behavior whether you see it or not. Why not to calm down for now and revisit issue little bit later.

(break for couple of hours)

2) Okay, let's see what has caused such reaction…
4) First of all, before you address any of this, remember how you have behaved yesterday, when you were in a hurry, and a person driving in front of you was driving too slow ?

2) Indeed ! Good point, some "i" felt frustrated, though "i" did not choose to express it verbally. But i see how my behavior is not any different from the person that yelled at me in frustration.

Looks like your intellect found a "way out", which is empathy through introspection. How can you blame this man for doing something you have done repeatedly? How can you expect him to act the way YOU think he should act? Answer: you can't. However, you CAN understand WHY he behaved as he did, why you reacted the way you did, and you can choose a HIGHER path, one in which you choose to leave behind a part of you with which you no longer wish to identify.

I do not think I clearly understand yet why I reacted in such way and understand his actions. That not to say that i can't. More work needs to be done.

2) Ha-haha.. True. Because i care only about myself, not others.

Are you satisfied with this being the case? That you are just like him?

Not satisfied at all. I am laughing at my own foolishness & blindness, plus I have a tendency to laugh at myself. I can see an eyelash in someone else eye, yet I can not see a tree in my own.
It could be a reverse emotion though, because in reality I should be crying. Perhaps it's a mechanism of self-calming ?

4) did he or did you make yourself feel this way ? Don't forget about the situation... It's not closed case yet. Keep thinking and revisiting it until all of "i" understand and in peace about it.

Or you can use the shock of seeing that you are as self-serving and egocentric as the other guy to prompt growth. There is no "peace" if you want to change.

Shocks do help to see things more clearly. Talking about "peace" seems to be another self-calm/comfort mechanism.

Hi Agni, no offense, but I thought that was funny how you wrote it all out, and it does click with how I might think through something that bugs me.

Offense ? Please.. :) I am more then happy if I make someone laugh here. Thank you for the quote, it got me rolling on a floor.

I think the good thing here is that you're self-remembering and analyzing your own thoughts, feelings, and actions/reactions. Another good thing that is that you were able to do a fundamental step in the Work - external consideration. You put yourself in someone else's shoes. And that doesn't mean he was justified in what he did, but at least you considered his viewpoint as part of your analysis and as a result were able to understand where he's coming from. It seems that doing that instantly changed the "mood" of your analysis, or at least that's the impression I got. You went from being frustrated/angry to being much more calm and understanding. So external consideration resulted in knowledge which resulted in protection (but post-factum).

My thought here is - if you remember to do this more often, you will get better at doing this not just post-factum but in real time, which is really what G meant by "self remembering", osit. And that will give you power over yourself as you will See a situation for what it is as it happens, and act appropriately instead of being manipulated into reacting in a harmful (to you and others) way.

I keep this in mind. Sleep prevents me from doing this in real time (not an excuse). Most of the time, it comes in a lag / post-factum. This is mostly due to the vision clouded by programs / egocentrism and not knowing.

Also I think you used your anger/frustration in a healthy/productive way since you channeled it into "getting to the bottom of all this" rather than into an even more subjective and self-centered perspective, which is what most people tend to do when angry.

I know that there is no reason to project anger to other person, judging from own experience it's anger of my programs/i's, if anyone to take a “hit” from it, it should be me, since I am responsible for that.

Anyway, those are some of the things that came to mind. Also, I'd be careful about numbering your i's as it's probably easy to mix up the numbers and the i's. I'd observe the i's but not assign labels to them and assume that you're properly identifying and separating them each time. Your i's are not just divided into the broad categories you identified them as, since they come from many personalities and many beliefs and programs which really don't have a name/label, they just are what they are.

Thank you, that's something I need to reflect and research more deeply.

Guys, really THANK YOU for all the input and time. That's love !

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I may be getting ahead of myself, but I am wondering about non-verbal I's that I sometimes feel, especially when driving but at other times too. There is one that I have noticed a great many times over many years. It feels kind of like an emotional lurch--I feel it in my stomach, almost as if the car had slowed suddenly (if I was driving). One example of a situation that might trigger the feeling is if someone pulls out on the road and then moves very slowly, for no apparent reason, forcing me to slow down, though not suddenly. It is an internal lurch, not a physical one. Most of the time I don't say anything, and it isn't too unusual to discover that there was a reason the other person did what they did that I couldn't see at first, but the original feeling is clearly beyond my control, and there is upset behind it.

Is the "lurch" a response to having to slow down for the other person? Or is it more surprise at the fact that something unexpected has happened? The only thing in my experience that I can think of is if a pedestrian approaches a crosswalk and looks like they are going to start walking, but they actually quickly stop. The thought that they are going to walk without checking for cars sparks a gut level fear that lurches my stomach. This would be a fear (i.e. emotional/instinctive) response that is felt viscerally in the motor center, I think. But I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about...

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Not satisfied at all. I am laughing at my own foolishness & blindness, plus I have a tendency to laugh at myself. I can see an eyelash in someone else eye, yet I can not see a tree in my own.
It could be a reverse emotion though, because in reality I should be crying. Perhaps it's a mechanism of self-calming ?

Could be. The stronger your dissatisfaction with yourself, the more impetus and "fire" for change. Personally, there are some things about myself that I "know" are wrong. But it is a cold and unemotional knowing. It's only when there is a strong emotional shock that the original structure is disintegrated, and a new one can be formed.

Shocks do help to see things more clearly. Talking about "peace" seems to be another self-calm/comfort mechanism.

Well, I think there is more to this. "Peace" is only self-calming when it is sought prematurely, before a complete and global "death" of the false personality. If a person experiences a small death and rebirth (a partial reintegration on a higher level), in one narrow aspect of their life, they may think of themselves as "reborn", as if they will experience no more developmental crises. I've met many "Christians" like this who believe there is nothing left for them to experience except heaven. They are at "peace" with themselves. What this really means is that they are comfortable living at a primitive level. But once the false self has been "killed", and a connection with the higher self develops, there is no more disintegration (the coarse parts have been thrown away or transmuted into "gold"). Now there is calm and resolve, a strength to never quit creating in a world of hostility and entropy. This is true courage, strength, love, responsibility, Work, authenticity.

 

[Renaissance]

Exactly(as far as egocentrism). Aka look at me, I am caring, how anyone dares not to respect that or thinks otherwise. Egocentrism at it's best!

I think the initial formation of this programming: 'see, I am caring - why don't you appreciate this?' (and the resulting anger) is important to discover and rather difficult to take on. It seems easier to admit that we are egocentric than it is to see the roots. Usually, in terms of development, the first person we are concerned about pleasing and showing just how much we care is our mother - or whoever takes on the mother role. Since this urge is different from an autonomous and developed caring, it can only be a mask seeking to satisfy a narcissistic need within and without. If we can see how these early psychological imprints recreate old suppressed emotions in current dramas, we might be able to align such hysteric responses with their origins. The psychology books on the QFS suggested reading list are helpful in this regard; I'm finding "The Drama of the Gifted Child" particularly helpful in addressing these issues...and rather intense.

 

[clearmiddle]

Is the "lurch" a response to having to slow down for the other person? Or is it more surprise at the fact that something unexpected has happened? The only thing in my experience that I can think of is if a pedestrian approaches a crosswalk and looks like they are going to start walking, but they actually quickly stop. The thought that they are going to walk without checking for cars sparks a gut level fear that lurches my stomach. This would be a fear (i.e. emotional/instinctive) response that is felt viscerally in the motor center, I think. But I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about...

That is another thing that happens from time to time, and there is some resemblance. This feeling isn't fear, but it may still be coming through my motor center. The event is a surprise, but my response isn't one of surprise. I am disappointed and annoyed. I see it as obstruction. I shift moods--and I's, I think--suddenly and that is where the lurching feeling comes from, I suppose. It is a distinct shock.

Your example shows a feeling that is connected with the motor center. That does help. I will have to wait for the next time something like this happens and look more closely. Thank you!

 

[hungrig]

From agni's post it sounds like an inner mental dialog, and not between I's, but one I! I think.

Like, she observed one little "I" having an conversation, witch she THOUGH were her/many "I's" conversing between themselves.

Or even more complicated, ´she read her 'I's' and labels/judge them each wrong while having an inner mental dialog parallel of what she thinks is her I's, while her whole conversation is in of it self one of the little I's, fooling her entire being.

Or, she felt her "I's", observed her self, BUT WHEN and while she did so, the 'mental dialog parallel of what she thinks is her I's, ' completely took over, and fixed her view.

...and on and on...

I'm going nuts of thinking this post over, while thinking of how complex the world is.

I mean the way the each I' described, to converse those words, seems to intellectual, that it got my attention.
Was it just an attempt trying to describe your I's "conversations" and put it into text-form just for the sake of express yourself!? Or was it really conversations?, I mean, was it like an inner mental voice there, which you say are your "I's" or whatever?

I'm not sure I grasped the Gurdjieff deal. From the expressions of the "I's" in Agni's post along with her thoughts/conclusions and feedback she got. It sounds like the "THE CENTERS" "FUNCTIONS" are the same as "I's".

This is confusing.. It maybe just was one I, and her intellectual center just had an dialog, just becouse she wanted it to dialog out, her bieffects of previous obstacles with the yelling man she liked to overcome, because she did not felt at comfort. Either she wants to have control over herself or simply just wants to know how her machine works.

Her anger felt like an other self, her weakness etc etc, felt like another self, but is it so?,,,, I though that in its complex form, I's consisted or "got/gets armed with" all the center and functions in "it's" host "body" whether awake or sleep/ consciousness or unconsciousness. That, "I's" were more like other personalities which did not know each other. More like we are in different states of mind, more like in hypnosis states, bare I call it that I though we all are like slightly "MPD victims" (big mistake assumption on my part?), in it's natural and human nature.......

What am I missing here!?

 

[agni]

It seems easier to admit that we are egocentric than it is to see the roots.

Hi Shane. Definitely. I am guilty of this as well(admitting i am this & that…) only to realize it's an excuse and self-calming again.

Since this urge is different from an autonomous and developed caring, it can only be a mask seeking to satisfy a narcissistic need within and without. If we can see how these early psychological imprints recreate old suppressed emotions in current dramas, we might be able to align such hysteric responses with their origins.

Bringing as an example subject of phobia… at childhood I was scared by a spider, which apparently tied an emotional burst/shock to an object. It still results in certain reaction when I see one, despite me knowing that there is nothing to be afraid of and spider is harmless to me. And that is something I can recall.. I am pretty sure there are many other similar things one might not even remember.

And you have answered a question without asking me asking :) I was curious as to what would be the next read about these issues.

From agni's post it sounds like an inner mental dialog, and not between I's, but one I! I think.

Hi, hungrig. I thought it was different i's because of the reasons that they seem to sound different, seem to have distinctive character/behavior to it, seem to have distinctive area of interests & influence. It's hard to describe for me , but i would say i's - are any thought forms within that could pose as "me" and provoke mechanical behavior ? (does it make sense ? Please correct me if I wrong by all means)

Was it just an attempt trying to describe your I's "conversations" and put it into text-form just for the sake of express yourself!? Or was it really conversations?

It was a conversation the way I see it. As if I would have several voices/viewpoints present.


p.s. not that it matters, i am he, not she :)

 

[hungrig]

Hi, hungrig. I thought it was different i's because of the reasons that they seem to sound different, seem to have distinctive character/behavior to it, seem to have distinctive area of interests & influence. It's hard to describe for me , but i would say i's - are any thought forms within that could pose as "me" and provoke mechanical behavior ? (does it make sense ? Please correct me if I wrong by all means)

I cannot correct you by any means, I think. Right now I don't know what Gurdjieff meant by all this stuff. I'm not sure people speaks of the same 'things' when expressing them "selves", what Gurdjieff meant by I's etc.

I did not wrote my post to correct but to question. To give different alternatives just to broaden the/my/your views. Hoping some kowlegde able being could just "jump" in and feedback and question me/whatever.

It was a conversation the way I see it. As if I would have several voices/viewpoints present.

Still, if people just miss understand each other or in themselves, it's like an different language but works like the same way, in the principles, like misplaced words, I think.

At some level this makes total sense to me. But this sounds like another obstacle from the language and "understanding" I(or you/others) have now, to be something else.

p.s. not that it matters, i am he, not she smile

I'AM SORRY! I will alter my previous post and change it to (he) if you like?

 

[agni]

I cannot correct you by any means, I think. Right now I don't know what Gurdjieff meant by all this stuff. I'm not sure people speaks of the same 'things' when expressing them "selves", what Gurdjieff meant by I's etc.

I did not wrote my post to correct but to question. To give different alternatives just to broaden the/my/your views. Hoping some kowlegde able being could just "jump" in and feedback and question me/whatever.

Me neither. Nor I know what Gurdjieff meant. I am here to question as well.

I'AM SORRY! I will alter my previous post and change it to (he) if you like?

I don't know. Do such small details deserve objectivity ? :)