Confirmation by Death

[Al Today]

Good grief.!.!.! I’ve been gone a week and a half and there are seven(7) pages of posts to review. Good to see the flapping of butterfly wings are gaining momentum.

Last weekend, I unplugged my father from life support to end his suffering. Two(2) days later my friend whom I call brother passed away horribly in front of family from cancer. Right now, at this moment, much of what I have been exposed to through the works of Laura have been confirmed. Too much detail to explain now and not why I post this.

What I want to say is from what I have observed, seen, and yes, “felt”. Life is not about “ME”. Not about the big “I”. We all will probably die and become memories on this 3D BBM. No matter what you are, no matter who you are, to me what matters are the daily interactions we have with each and every individual on this BBM. I stress each and every day. Oh sure there are the bad guys out there to be dealt with, but there are also souled individuals and “good” people.

I’ve always said that when I die, just cremate me and use me for fertilizer. But when I saw a funeral procession of at least a mile and a half long, enough people gathered for a small concert or sporting event, people gathered for the remembrance of an individual, I then KNEW we will all be just memories on this 3D BBM. I think the C's said this also...

I was raised in a family of energy vampires and narcissism. I do wonder if I chose that family or if some bad dudes got me stranded into that situation to keep me asleep at the wheel of life. So there ya go. I can now say that I cry only for people with a soul. I know my parents and sister had/have no souls (individuated at least) and my friend, my adopted brother did have a soul. There was a huge party to celebrate his life and association with him. Nobody gathers to “celebrate” those with no souls. This is what I have observed, seen, and yes, “felt”. I need a smokie now...

 

[theos]

I can now say that I cry only for people with a soul. I know my parents and sister had/have no souls (individuated at least) and my friend, my adopted brother did have a soul.

Careful on judging who has a soul or not. A "bad guy" can be a souled person in struggle and a soulless OP can be "the salt of the earth". One can't be 100% sure.

Welcome back...and my condolences for your you losses.

 

[gwb1995]

I was raised in a family of energy vampires and narcissism. I do wonder if I chose that family or if some bad dudes got me stranded into that situation to keep me asleep at the wheel of life. So there ya go. I can now say that I cry only for people with a soul. I know my parents and sister had/have no souls (individuated at least) and my friend, my adopted brother did have a soul. There was a huge party to celebrate his life and association with him. Nobody gathers to celebrate those with no souls. This is what I have observed, seen, and yes, “felt”. I need a smokie now...

I have encountered many people in this life that I have questioned as to whether or not they are suffering from narcissism, or other issues, a few individuals have made me question if they were souled or not. I have never been able to make a determination as to anyone being souled or not. I just don't have that level of knowledge.

I do understand that you have been through a lot recently, and I am sorry for your losses of late. Could you explain when you identified these people as OP's, and how you were able to do so? I have the same question about your 'brother' and how you know he has a soul.

There was a huge party to celebrate his life and association with him. Nobody gathers to celebrate those with no souls. This is what I have observed, seen, and yes, “felt”.

I ask, because in the quote from you above, you appear to be responding emotionally, rather than from factual data. I don't think one can make a conclusion about a person being souled or not, based on a party after the funeral, or how many people attended either event.

FWIW,

gwb

 

[Mountain Crown]

All things considered, developing a working hypothesis based on the probability of persons in our life being OPs must be done.

 

[Breton]

Or... maybe we actually don't need to bother with worrying about who has a soul (individuated soul) and who is an OP.

Even though I have read so many discussions about this matter on this site, and quite a bit of Laura's excellent work on the subject, I still am not totally convinced these labels are in the end so very useful in the Work and cutting through the lies and illusions that are told to us and we tell ourselves (also which might be called raising FRV).

Instead, what I find useful is the SEEING when personalities drain and feed off of us. What is useful are the valuable LESSONS that come with LOVE that we honestly share with others as well as the ugly interactions of PREDATION. If I learn a lesson, then I don't care if I shared love with an OP, or was wounded by a predatory souled individual, or vice versa - do I?

Also, let me add, that it is very hard to look at both of these kinds of interactions as equally valuable gifts of 3rd density life, isn't it? Especially when we are hurting?

My condolences to you in your sorrow, my fellow human being - Al Today, whoever you are - I empathize. And I celebrate also with you that you are alive and learning life's lessons, and you are seeing and experiencing with me both the Beautiful and Wrathful names of God (as I believe the Sufis put it).

_Breton_

 

[Mountain Crown]

We must keep in mind that knowledge is a prerequisite to love. It is possible to think we are learning lessons but really be sleeping all the more soundly.

It is the persistent pursuit of objectivity that allows us to discern the names of God, which are sometimes obvious and other times not.

Although labels can be misused, they are necessary; we must not fall into a paramoralistic trap.

The thing about OPs is that they have been co-opted by 4D STS; we are their food, served to them by OPs.

 

[Al Today]

Thank you all for your condolences. I would enjoy replying to queries…

[quote author=chachachick] A "bad guy" can be a souled person in struggle and a soulless OP can be "the salt of the earth". One can't be 100% sure.[/quote]
I do agree with you. For lack of “true” knowledge I do believe that anything/everything is possible. To me this is the crux of the matter. I just do not KNOW the “real” story beyond a shadow of a doubt. Many have potential awareness levels and access (communication) to… let’s say “ourselves in the future”. In my case, many, many years of association, observations, whisperings of the spirits (for lack of knowing the “truthful” term), and dreams, with discernment and constant/nonstop testing of a hypothesis can result in knowledge of irrefutable truth. And of course I could always be wrong… :P A couple old sayings (I think) have base in truth:
1) “By their fruits you shall know them.”
2) “The eyes are a window to the soul”

[quote author=gwb] Could you explain when you identified these people as OP's, and how you were able to do so? I have the same question about your 'brother' and how you know he has a soul.[/quote]
Please contemplate the above reply and let me know what you think…

[quote author=Breton] Or... maybe we actually don't need to bother with worrying about who has a soul (individuated soul) and who is an OP.[/quote]
I think we do. We all have our lessons and perhaps to survive on this BBM, becoming aware of the situation may be of benefit. Also, the word “love” is an entire subject in itself. Honestly, I am not comfortable with this 3D CONCEPT of “love” anyway. And predation? Perhaps this is part of a “lesson plan” hidden by the veil of forgetfulness?

[quote author=Mountain Crown] It is possible to think we are learning lessons but really be sleeping all the more soundly.[/quote]
Yep, This is why one should never end the Work. Keep trying to gather/acclimate information, process, categorize, observe the mirror, ugh…. So much that is unknown… I’m the first one to say never say never. All I HOPE for is that “someday” I will indeed know…

edit: About calling them OPs... I am not trying to label them but all I can "see" is that at least two possible three people in my life have no soul. I guess you can call them pathological, but I "see" no soul... What I have seen goes beyond any textbook definition that I have at least seen. How can one describe the feeling, the "aura", the blankness/blackness? I cannot.

 

[anart]

We must keep in mind that knowledge is a prerequisite to love.

It seems that you have forgotten that we must do nothing  - we will - all of us - do what is in us to do - there is no 'must', at least not to my current understanding.

  It is possible to think we are learning lessons but really be sleeping all the more soundly.

Absolutely, just as it is possible to get sidetracked by the idea of OP as so different from oneself as to be definitively identified, or being even worth the time and effort to be a distraction.  Especially when the key to the entire matter is SELF knowledge  - not figuring out who is and who is not an OP - or assuming that everyone in one's life must be an OP except us...

It is the persistent pursuit of objectivity that allows us to discern the names of God, which are sometimes obvious and other times not.

Yep - but this objectivity is most difficultly pursued when it deals with oneself - which is where the faces of God reside.

Although labels can be misused, they are necessary; we must not fall into a paramoralistic trap.

Is not labeling someone an OP when there is no way one can know such a thing for sure not a paramoralistic trap?

The thing about OPs is that they have been co-opted by 4D STS; we are their food, served to them by OPs.

The thing about OPs is that they are as natural a part of this reality as anything else - and that it is only our own ignorance of ourselves and of objective reality that make us such tasty food.  I would highly suggest a turning of that analytical magnifying glass to ourselves and away from others we see as different enough to be 'other' if not 'OP'.  It has been stressed endlessly that one CANNOT KNOW such a thing - yet, here we are again, assuming others are what we certainly must not be - when the fact of the matter might very well be the reverse, for all we know. 

 

[Turgon]

A couple old sayings (I think) have base in truth:
1) “By their fruits you shall know them.”
2) “The eyes are a window to the soul”

[but I "see" no soul... What I have seen goes beyond any textbook definition that I have at least seen. How can one describe the feeling, the "aura", the blankness/blackness? I cannot.

I often look into people's eyes, or get a certain aura or vibe from someone. And came to similar conclusions about people. If they don't have that certain "spark" to them, or "vibe" or look in their eyes, do they really have a soul. Yet I've met people with completely mechanical behaviour, who sometimes DO have a certain "spark" to them. Who's actions and reactions are predictable, yet there is still something to them. It really is difficult to tell who does and who doesn't. And in the subsequent months have stopped trying to discern whether someone has a soul or not, (not that It doesn't cross my mind), but not putting so much emphasis on it.

As anart said, for all we know, the reverse might be true.

 

[John G]

Even for a hypothetical theoretical discussion, good vs. bad seems a bad way to play "spot the OP". "Spot the OP" as a tool for reality seems at best a waste of time. If one or both of my children are OPs, I could care less, it changes nothing about how I interact with them. OPs heading towards STO candidatesville seems like a joyous thing and OPs messing up seems no worse than any other density messing up.

 

[gwb1995]

Thank you all for your condolences. I would enjoy replying to queries…

[quote author=chachachick] A "bad guy" can be a souled person in struggle and a soulless OP can be "the salt of the earth". One can't be 100% sure.

I do agree with you. For lack of “true” knowledge I do believe that anything/everything is possible. To me this is the crux of the matter. I just do not KNOW the “real” story beyond a shadow of a doubt. Many have potential awareness levels and access (communication) to… let’s say “ourselves in the future”. In my case, many, many years of association, observations, whisperings of the spirits (for lack of knowing the “truthful” term), and dreams, with discernment and constant/nonstop testing of a hypothesis can result in knowledge of irrefutable truth. And of course I could always be wrong… :P A couple old sayings (I think) have base in truth:
1) “By their fruits you shall know them.”
2) “The eyes are a window to the soul”

[quote author=gwb] Could you explain when you identified these people as OP's, and how you were able to do so? I have the same question about your 'brother' and how you know he has a soul.[/quote]
Please contemplate the above reply and let me know what you think…

[/quote]

AL Today,

There is nothing for me to contemplate from you response above, and that is my error. I did not communicate clearly what I was trying to say. I listed some very vage examples from my personal experience, and expected you to connect to what I was thinking. I can now see my own 'I's in my words to you. I wanted to ask you, "How could you possible know if someone is a souled being or not? I also wanted you to ask yourself, if this was a good thing, when it comes to doing the work.

Anart has answered this for both of us, in my opinion:

The thing about OPs is that they are as natural a part of this reality as anything else - and that it is only our own ignorance of ourselves and of objective reality that make us such tasty food. I would highly suggest a turning of that analytical magnifying glass to ourselves and away from others we see as different enough to be 'other' if not 'OP'. It has been stressed endlessly that one CANNOT KNOW such a thing - yet, here we are again, assuming others are what we certainly must not be - when the fact of the matter might very well be the reverse, for all we know.

As for myself, I must focus on my many I's and all the programs running that make up who I am at this stage; rather than worrying about the status of other beings around me in this 3D world. Being aware of what surrounds one is vital, but working on our true self is much more critical in my opinion.

gwb

 

[Al Today]

Anart has answered this for both of us, in my opinion:

The thing about OPs is that they are as natural a part of this reality as anything else - and that it is only our own ignorance of ourselves and of objective reality that make us such tasty food. I would highly suggest a turning of that analytical magnifying glass to ourselves and away from others we see as different enough to be 'other' if not 'OP'. It has been stressed endlessly that one CANNOT KNOW such a thing - yet, here we are again, assuming others are what we certainly must not be - when the fact of the matter might very well be the reverse, for all we know.

As for myself, I must focus on my many I's and all the programs running that make up who I am at this stage; rather than worrying about the status of other beings around me in this 3D world. Being aware of what surrounds one is vital, but working on our true self is much more critical in my opinion.

gwb

I logically understand what has been said, but as in all things within this "reality", I just cannot accept that "that one CANNOT KNOW such a thing". I think within the potential billions of people on this BBM, at least one(1) person does or can know. I now gotta ask, where is the problem with this thought?

edited for clarity because my typing sometimes is the opposite of my thoughts... Strange how one can think one thing and yet type/write exactly the opposite. Seems like some unseen force just intercedes to mess things up...

 

[Breton]

edit: About calling them OPs... I am not trying to label them but all I can "see" is that at least two possible three people in my life have no soul. I guess you can call them pathological, but I "see" no soul... What I have seen goes beyond any textbook definition that I have at least seen. How can one describe the feeling, the "aura", the blankness/blackness? I cannot.

Al Today... maybe you (and some others) have some bit of psychic ability to detect something "off" about people? It might not be "souls" or "absence of souls" exactly, but  of course, that term "soul" is what comes most naturally to mind to most of us. Especially if we don't have a lot of experience and knowledge of these matters - maybe our vocabulary might not be up to the task to describe it better.

However I thought of a question - for anyone reading this thread: whenever we feel something about a person like Al Today describes, and it sort of seems beyond our normal physical senses, could it be related to a "dead essence" as described by Gurdjieff?

"It must be understood that man consists of two  parts:  essence and  personality. Essence in man is what is his own. Personality in man is what is 'not his own.' 'Not his own' means what has come from outside
[...]

"Moreover, it happens fairly often that essence dies in a man while his personality and his body are still alive. A considerable percentage of the people we meet in the streets of a great town are people who are  empty  inside,  that  is,  they  are  actually already dead.

"It is fortunate for us that we do not see and do not know it.  If we knew what a number of people are actually dead and what a number of  these dead people govern our lives, we should go mad with horror. And indeed people often do go mad because they find out something of this nature without the proper preparation, that is, they see something they are not supposed to see. In order to see without danger one must be on the way. If a man who can do nothing sees the truth he will certainly go mad. Only this rarely happens. Usually everything is so arranged that a man can see nothing prematurely. Personality sees only what it likes to see and what does not interfere with its life. It never sees what it does not like. This is both good and bad at the same time. It is good if a man wants to sleep, bad if he wants to awaken."

Of course, this is probably a "side issue" as far as the Work is concerned - it is more benefit to focus on learning our machine. However, I am so curious about anything to do with souls, and so on.

_Breton_

 

[anart]

I logically understand what has been said, but as in all things within this "reality", I just cannot accept that "that one CANNOT KNOW such a thing". I think within the potential billions of people on this BBM, at least one(1) person does or can know. I now gotta ask, where is the problem with this thought?

edited for clarity because my typing sometimes is the opposite of my thoughts... Strange how one can think one thing and yet type/write exactly the opposite. Seems like some unseen force just intercedes to mess things up...

Al, seriously? You're seriously going to make this statement in this way? I would suggest that you are very emotional right now and for good reason - you've just been through a very difficult time and because of that your thinking (and typing) is not as clear as it will be once you have moved through this time.

As far as your statement that that 'at least 1 person can know' - what is this based on? What is your definition of a 'person' in this context - do you mean a normal 3D STS human being on planet earth in 2009? I have no doubt that anything is possible, but the way you've phrased this is a twist and I think that you know that when I say that one cannot know such a thing, I mean that as it applies to the vast majority of humanity.

Furthermore, you cannot know what it is you picked up about these people that you think was evidenced in their funerals as having a soul or not. You see, just because a person lives a wretched life does not mean they have no soul. They can have a soul on the downward path, they can have a soul in struggle, having, for this lifetime, lost that struggle. They could have a soul that turned away in bitterness from all that they found to 'be' in this world or their soul expression could have been twisted and stunted through mental illness - or any other number of possibilities - you cannot know!

The person who you think is souled and had such a turn out at the funeral could be an OP who never bothered anyone, was not in struggle and was well-liked - like that special family dog people talk about years after its death - you cannot know. They could, of course, also be souled and advanced enough to make others feel good - you cannot know.

The point is, Al, that there are so many variations and possibilities of human experience (souled, not souled, somewhere in between (yes, there are those who are somewhere in between) ) - that to make such a statement about anyone as 'they're an OP' or 'they have no soul' is nothing more than a reflection of your own limited understanding and really has very little to do with the person being discussed. Just because we find someone 'to our liking', or a lot of people find them 'to their liking', does not mean - in any way - that they have a soul.

I really think that people need to get a grasp on this OP hypothesis and understand that there is no discernible difference between and OP and a human with the seed of a soul - none. The differences that are present are subtle, very well hidden and discernible only after long observation by someone who is capable of truly objective understanding - and those people are vanishingly rare.

Also, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, and I sincerely hope that you are gentle with yourself as you move through your grief - take care of you.

 

[Al Today]

Than You anart. Yep, I am emotional right now. I can cry like a baby one moment and then seethe with hate within seconds. I know I just gotta cool down and let things take their course. Gotta say though, this last two weeks have been the most stressful of my life. Quite the rollercoaster ride. I do know these feelings will pass. They'd better.!.!.! I just wish this adrenaline would dissipate quickly. Thanks again, I appreciate your words.
Weird thing is the nightmares I've been having the last three nights in a row. Never experienced that before. I'll just let "time" pass and try to think objectively. Last couple days I've been restraining myself. I've hugged sooo many people lately and am in "HUG" mode. I laugh at myself here at work cause I gotta remain professional...
I gotta keep my humor and keep on :) :) :)...
Again, THANKS