Church " miracle "

Konstantin

Konstantin

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It all happened yesterday in Skopje - Macedonia> In the church of st.Dimitri
On the news i saw on interesting thing. The priest said that all the icons in the church start to " rejuvenating " ( to look like they are new) one morning when he opened the church. The most important was that the golden color in all places of the church start to look like its put there today.It starts to look so bright and clean.Also after that they notice that the red color start to pop up. They called it miracle and a lot of people are coming to see it. To be honest i dont know what to call this. I want to try to find some logical explanation first.Like the ingredients in those colors ( especially the golden color) and the possible reaction of that color with something in the air , in the atmosphere, or anything else. Not because i denied this but because i want to know the truth. What you think? Here are some pictures of this icons. They were all dull before, and very old. They also said that the same happened only once in church in Russia.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/531445_10150633075086560_143484006559_9962953_2079317449_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/531445_10150633075091560_143484006559_9962954_1415576643_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/531445_10150633075121560_143484006559_9962956_321066416_n.jpg
 
I guess it's hard to assess the situation without seeing what everything looked like before the "miracle". Otherwise, we'd have to assume people who are telling this story are being objective and honest - not the best assumption to make, considering religion is involved. Did you see any pre-miracle pictures?

Gonzo
 
No i have never seen the icons before. But from the reports of the people and by the fact that they were more then 100 years old i think that they were pretty damaged.

here is one link
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Macedonia+capital+faithful+flock+miracle+icons/6429990/story.html
 
Christian Orthodox church, eh? Coming from a country where so called icon miracles appear here and there all the time, I am very skeptical regarding this one too. Perhaps there is something in the atmosphere that interferes with the chemical composition of the colours like you say?

From the article you posted:

"Since this morning I have observed the phenomenon, half of the icons are already cleaned. First a red colour appears which turns golden (..) You can see the icons clearing up from top to bottom," Father Malinov said. {That's the particular church's priest of what I understand, such miraculous rumors seem to start by priests, not anyone else who just happened to be there and see them}

An AFP journalist on the scene said that it did look like the icons were getting brighter as she observed them. {perhaps a case of seeing what she expected to see?}

The leader if the Macedonian Orthodox Church (MPC), Archbishop Stefan of Ohrid, came to the Sveti Dimitrije church on Monday to see the icons but would not comment.
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Regarding icon "miracles" here's a couple examples from Cyprus, where the phenomenon happens quite a lot, for a few days people start flogging the churches and listen to doom and gloom predictions about why the icon (often the Virgin Mary on the icon) cries, etc. After a while it all goes to normal, no scientific investigation ever taking place. But the churches come out richer because the people who go to church leave some money every time.

Anyhow, here's the examples, with my emphasis:

Cyprus, February 1997

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/1997/feb/10/weeping-icon-draws-thousands-tears-seen-as/

Thousands of pilgrims led by the head of Cyprus’ Greek Orthodox Church gathered Sunday at a mountain monastery to pray before an icon of the Virgin Mary and the child Jesus that reportedly has begun to weep.

Many Greek Cypriots regard the 400-year-old icon’s tears both as a miracle and a sign from God that a major calamity is impending. {Nothing really horrible happened to the island at the time. But with all the horrible things happening all over the world, the icon should be crying all the time}

Monks at the 11th-century Kykko Monastery first reported last weekend that they noticed tears forming in the eyes of both the Virgin and Jesus and flowing slowly down the icon.

Hundreds of pilgrims have since traveled to the monastery, but Sunday’s congregation, estimated at 2,000, was by far the biggest in a single day. More than 20,000 stopped at the icon throughout the day, said Nikiforos, the monastery’s abbot.

Sunday’s pilgrims braved snowy weather to travel to Kykko Monastery, 60 miles southwest of Nicosia, to join Archbishop Chrysostomos in a supplication for forgiveness.

Chrysostomos is the head of the Mediterranean island’s Greek Orthodox Church. Wearing gold vestments and a heavy golden crown, he knelt before the icon to lead the congregation in prayer and to venerate the icon.

“We pray to you Holiest Virgin to save us from all evil and to support our just struggle for the liberation of our enslaved and occupied country,” the white-haired archbishop said while monks chanted Byzantine hymns.

The archbishop was referring to the Turkish occupation since 1974 of the northern third of the island. Turkey invaded Cyprus then, ostensibly to protect the small Turkish Cypriot minority in the wake of a failed coup by supporters of union with Greece.

Some 180,000 Greek Cypriots, or one-third of the island’s population, left their homes in northern Cyprus and fled to the south in the wake of the invasion. Some were forcibly expelled.

“We pray and beg you to assist our refugees to return to their homes and to enable them to pray once more in their abandoned churches which have been desecrated by the infidel invader,” the archbishop said.

Reports of such icon-related “miracles” are not uncommon in Cyprus and often attract hundreds of pilgrims. Icons occupy a special place in the lives of most Greek Cypriots, who keep them at their homes, in their cars and offices and even in their purses.

None of the pilgrims saw tears on Sunday, but some onlookers said they noticed a faint, reddish stain below the icon’s eyes.
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December 2000: different town, different church, same story

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/cmnews/2000/00-12-31.cmnews.html

Weeping skies keep the faithful away from "crying" icon
By George Psyllides

REALITY or hoax? Visitors who have seen the Virgin Mary's "tear tracks" running down the 1,500-year-old icon in the church of Arakapas in the Limassol district are undecided.

But Father Demetrios, caretaker of the small but impressive 19th century church in the remote village, did not try to offer any explanation of the phenomenon yesterday.

"We should not try to explain the tears," he told the Sunday Mail. "Our human minds cannot possibly comprehend such a phenomenon." {So let's take his word for it and say it's a miracle...}

Father Demetrios was the first to spot the "tears" as he prepared for a Christmas morning service; he says they have been running on and off since then.

The icon is very old: it was brought to Cyprus from Constantinople in around the sixth or seventh centuries, to prevent its destruction. It was rolled up like a papyrus, wrapped in fig leaves to protect it from moisture.

It was later placed on wood and placed in the church where it has been ever since.

Limassol Bishop Athanassios visited the church this week, but was non- committal. He would say only that God loved humankind and would not try to hurt people.

No expert is understood to have seen or examined the icon, leaving the phenomenon open to speculation.

Some say the "tears" could be the Virgin's disapproval of the sinful lives people are living, or even tears joy at the restoration of peace in the Church of Cyprus after it was dragged through the mud earlier this year in a volley of accusations between the Limassol and Paphos Bishops and their supporters.

Sceptics say the "tears" come from the wood on which the icon is mounted. But why they appear to come from the Virgin's eyes no one can explain.

Father Demetrios says that many people, including Bishop Athanassios, have seen the tears flow on the icon "like rivers".

Yesterday only the tracks of "tears" could be seen. And apart from Father Demetrios, the church was empty, as a downpour of a more explainable kind kept people away.

The priest said yesterday that it was the third time this particular icon of the Virgin had been seen to weep. The previous times were in 1922 and 1974, he said, two years associated with the persecution of the Greeks of Asia Minor by Turkey and before the 1974 invasion of Cyprus. {He sez, but I haven't found any proof of that...}

Paphos Bishop Chrysostomos, however, has warned people not to be gullible, arguing that the "miracle" could be serving personal interests.

"I have heard they are building a new church there," he said this week.

Although there were no signs of any major construction work yesterday, it was obvious that the church's exterior was being repaired.
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And there you go....

I mean seriously, what kind of miracle is it IF icons cry and frescoes renew themselves? What is the message, from whom and why?
 
It wouldn't be an absurd notion to consider 4-d STS trickery trying to further entice new, vulnerable recruits, looking to find meaning in their lives, into their monotheistic trap through "miracles" and planting thoughts of how to interpret the signs into the minds of church leaders and pious followers.

However, before even considering 4-d STS, a less supernatural explanation should probably be pursued, IMO. It seems every one who is quoted as witnessing this "miracle" has both a vested interest in increasing the church's reputation, thus providing motive, and an inability to perceive objectively (or at least skeptically) by virtue of their faith and need for validation.

Personally, I'm waiting for crying Madonna that tells the masses she's sad because God quit in disgust and her son's not so sure he really wants the job - after 2000 years on hearing prayers from both sides of a conflict asking to smite their enemy, he's just not feeling the love. I think that would be a more realistic message that the ones we've been fed over the years from those who claim to be in the know, who profess things like earthquakes and floods are the result of God's anger over man's sins.

Gonzo
 
Well everything is possible. From some reaction between paint and atmosphere or wall, from some Electromagnetic reaction of some ingredients in the paint or the wall or the atmosphere , to some kind of 4-D STS manipulation. I know just one thing and that is that there is no supernatural powers and thing its all natural but we cant explain that, we don't have a clue, the right answer. Here are some pictures of the icons before and after.

http://tvpaket.com.mk/index.php/2012-04-08-18-18-28/341-2012-04-09-13-39-42
 
Not sure if you've seen the case of St. Joseph Staircase:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENjjspf2tN0

Also

_http://funtripslive.com/santa_fe/miracle_staircase/staircase.htm

Details the story:

Architects will tell you it should have crashed the moment someone set foot on it. Scientists will say it defies the law of gravity. Lumber specialists disagree on the type of wood used. Carpenters said it was impossible in such a small space. The church is silent.

But the Sisters of Loretto know. It was a miracle.
...
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This is controversial; might be worth while reading the article because there was mention of a murdered old man who was a carpenter with exotic tools - but who really knows. The stairs themselves are quite remarkable.
 
And here is one amateur video from the church. Notice the small thing flying in front of camera.They are not flies or some bugs i thinh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oBnPpZmTY0A
 
Maybe i`m on someting about this ICON luminescent. The oreols are made from Golden leaf. And they are shining.

http://archive.sciencewatch.com/nov-dec97/sw_nov-dec97_page6.htm

from the above link:

"Another reason is the interest in using gold compounds as chemical sensors because of their luminescence, rather than their drug application," Fackler continues. "The rare-metals suppliers Johnson Matthey now advertise luminescent gold compounds for this purpose." Fackler first reported the luminescence of gold thiolates in Inorganic Chemistry (33[13]:2790-8, 1994), and with Zerihun Assefa and Jennifer Forward he has written a major review on the subject, which should appear later this year in Plenum's Modern Inorganic Chemistry series. Assefa now works at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee, and Forward is with Procter and Gamble in the U.K.


then this about Luminescent cyclometalated gold(III) complexes

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2011/dt/c1dt10636h

and this about Photoluminescence of noble metals

http://iopscience.iop.org/1402-4896/38/2/012;jsessionid=E117FE02B805B7D2E303CDE2BEF2DBDA.c3

maybe some conditions made this happened. Like radiation, like some chemical factors in the environment, or something else

This is just a try to understand what is really going on. Maybe i`m totally wrong . I dont know
 
jovichmk said:
And here is one amateur video from the church. Notice the small thing flying in front of camera.They are not flies or some bugs i thinh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oBnPpZmTY0A
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I think the particles might actually be reflections of light bouncing off the crystal chandeliers.

Gonzo
 
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