Can I start the Work if I'm not yet an obyvatel?

Andrey

Andrey

Jedi
Hello.

I'm working on putting my life together and the model of the good obyvatel is something I am aspiring towards. It has been said that the Work cannot begin on a level lower than an obyvatel.

I was wondering if this is a hard and fast rule. I am/was under the impression that it is, so I have not really begun any kind of esoteric work. I have even been holding off on reading many of the threads on this subsection of the forum and focusing solely on getting my life together. It's got to the point I've even sort of subconsciously abandoned the idea of esoteric development and only care about becoming a better person.

With all that being said, I am starting to recognize the need to do and read about some Work related topics in order to assist me in putting my life together.

So ironically, what started me off on this path has become the reverse... adding Work elements in my life to help me become a good obyvatel.

So to keep it really short here, I was wondering if this has to be done in a linear fashion... becoming a good obyvatel first, then and only then begin the Work, or are we allowed to be more flexible here, and if so what should we be cautious about if we prematurely begin some aspects of the Work.

Personally, I feel it's OK to do both. But that's just how I feel right now. Correct me if you think this isn't a good idea and why. And if there is some wiggle room here, what do you think we should prioritize? I figure don't do the top shelf aspects of the Work right off the bat, but focus on just reading and absorbing the information first, and do some more or less harmless stuff. Or am I being too paranoid? Anyways, I'll stop right here. Thanks for reading.
 
Andrey said:
I have even been holding off on reading many of the threads on this subsection of the forum and focusing solely on getting my life together. It's got to the point I've even sort of subconsciously abandoned the idea of esoteric development and only care about becoming a better person.

With all that being said, I am starting to recognize the need to do and read about some Work related topics in order to assist me in putting my life together.
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Thank you for sharing your troubles and reaching out.

I'd say that you've already been doing the Work just by putting your life together and working on becoming better person. By seeing the need to read and learn about other, maybe more formal aspects of the Work, it seems you've been preparing yourself to step up a bit in, what seems, a right direction for you. In short, take it what comes naturally for your growth and development, i.e. what brings you closer to the kind of person you want to see yourself become.

And don't be too harsh on yourself if you 'fail' sometimes, it's only human thing to do so, plus that's probably the best, and maybe only and quickest way to really learn and grow. And try to have fun on the journey. :flowers:
 
Andrey said:
I figure don't do the top shelf aspects of the Work right off the bat, but focus on just reading and absorbing the information first, and do some more or less harmless stuff.
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Some old man on the forum should answer you here who will surely be an expert in this thing called work.

Just comment to you about your annotated paragraph, that in my personal experience, first came life with its experiences and events and then came reading about truth and knowledge.

Having lived these experiences, the understanding of the concepts is complete and immediate.

That is why readings on truth (like almost everything here) reveal new revelations in successive readings of the same texts, since new life experiences allow us to understand what was previously confusing or somewhat confusing.
 
Andrey said:
I was wondering if this is a hard and fast rule. I am/was under the impression that it is, so I have not really begun any kind of esoteric work. I have even been holding off on reading many of the threads on this subsection of the forum and focusing solely on getting my life together. It's got to the point I've even sort of subconsciously abandoned the idea of esoteric development and only care about becoming a better person.
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Unlike other ways, In the 4th way, 'work' happens in the real world. Life itself shows the path and teach lessons. It is different for each person. In a interesting way, C's mentioned that 'Simple karmic lessons' are qualification for 4D though they won't tell what that means. So I think you can do work while trying to be obyvatel.

Probably, G's statement is for the people who wants to run away from real life lessons and think of doing 'work'.
 
As Laura once told me “Forget about esoteric knowledge, focus on simple karmic understandings!” this is The Work for most of us, to clean our machine, to become the best version of who we can be, to ”gather knowledge on a continual basis” (paraphrasing the Cs).

So my best advice to you would be “keep on doing what you already do” …
 
T.C. said:
What do you mean by “esoteric work” and “work related topics”?
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Hello T.C.,

I'm glad you asked this question because I've been meaning to start a thread something along these lines for a while. What exactly is "the Work?" To be honest, I'm not so sure. I've always thought of it as a sharp divide between working on regular life stuff like paying the bills and esoteric Work with a capital W, which according to me at least are highly specialized techniques to facilitate awakening. That was the initial impression when I first came here. I also noticed this forum's resonance with the teachings of Gurdjieff, and assumed it is a modified version of a Fourth Way School. Everything else (castaneda, diet, psychology, the C's, EE, christian principles, etc) revolved around the cornerstone which is the teachings of gurdjieff. Again, this was my initial impression.

But the more I read, I realized this assumption is not very true. Everything is equally important it seems and it's all part of "the Work." This left me a bit confused in some aspects but also made more sense in other aspects. Confused because when I read Gurdjieff, the way the information hit my psyche, maybe my impressions of what esoteric work means was a bit off. I think my mistake was I took the idea of man as a machine way too literally to the point where I felt literally everything and anything I do is mechanical and there is nothing I can do that is conscious unless specifically directed by a 4th way teacher. I've even made a thread regarding this topic. I assumed there is "machine" work and then there is "conscious" work, and any "machine" work is a waste of time and won't get me anywhere. As you can see, there is this idea of a sharp divide between regular mechanical life actions and I guess there are times when I can say to myself that I'm officially doing "esoteric work." I still subconsciously hold this belief. What esoteric work even means, I'm not sure. I figured some awakened mind has a better idea.

This along with the idea that one cannot do the work without being a good obyvatel. Again, I got the impression that I have to approach formal official "esoteric" work step by step in a linear fashion.

So what is "the Work?" I honestly don't know. At this point, it seems to be almost everything on this forum and I suppose I can start, and or probably have already started.

To be more specific regarding my idea of it at this moment, I guess part of the Work to me is reading and applying the information on this subsection of the forum specifically. Going through the 'important threads' section, etc.

But what do you think is meant by the idea that you can't do the work without being a good obyvatel? That statement again contains implications of a sort of divide between normal life and a life where one is doing the official Work with a huge W stamped on their wrist.

Maybe I need to stop romanticizing esoterica so much. I'm a sucker for the mystical, the occult, magical, artistic, poetic and all that. I've been reading some history, but as Marc Bloch said in his book, I think I'm more of an antiquarian than interested in real history because I romanticize the cultural aspects of ancient and medieval history more than more recent history. Not really into the modern world so much. And I gravitate towards old history and occult texts merely because I like the artistic elegance of these things. It's a matter of aesthetics I guess. Maybe this is where I get some of my ideas of Work from. It somehow has to be "magical" and appealing to my subjective universe. And when all the magical and mystical fluff is stripped off, the Work sometimes seems boring. I guess it's called WORK for a reason. Sometimes, I realize it is in fact quite fascinating... the idea of Work as explicated by this forum, but I get distracted. Anyways, enough blabber.

Maybe if I could get a clear explanation/definition of what exactly is the Work, I could get a better handle on it.

Thanks for reading
 
I think the simplest way to view it is that there can’t be Work without an aim.

When we try to achieve an aim, we’ll find all the parts inside us that don’t want to put in the effort to achieve it and that try to stop us.

This proves to us our mechanicalness, and it proves to us the concept that we have many different i’s that are not fused together into a single individuality.

We also discover all the things outside of us that act against us and prevent us from achieving our aim, and this proves to us the concept of the general law and the constant actions of A influences and their suppressive influence on our lives.

So by attempting to achieve an aim, we attain self-knowledge of our programs, what we like and don’t like, where we’re strong and where we’re weak, and we learn about reality as a whole and how it is set up to prevent us from achieving anything of real value.

It’s in working against these things that we are pursuing actual esoteric work, building our Will, fusing an individuality that is capable of really Doing something.

For someone who is not a good obyvatel, who hasn’t got their life in order, then becoming a good obyvatel is The Work.

There are many reasons why one must be a good obyvatel first. The aims of the obyvatel are totally tangible and realistic and definite. The obyvatel isn’t trying to discover the secrets of the universe, or navigate the imaginal realms of angels and demons. The obyvatel is trying to fight against laziness, disorganisation, maintain their composure, have a positive effect on their immediate environment and their own life and the lives of those they interact with on a daily basis.

The efforts required to achieve this and the lessons learned during the process are the foundations for anything else to be built upon. It’s like, one can’t stand firm without truly knowing where the ground is.

But all of the above doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t pursue subjects that one is interested in. We should just always ask ourselves how whatever it is we’re doing is getting us closer to our aim, or if it’s a dissociative distraction, or worse.
 
T.C. said:
I think the simplest way to view it is that there can’t be Work without an aim.

When we try to achieve an aim, we’ll find all the parts inside us that don’t want to put in the effort to achieve it and that try to stop us.

This proves to us our mechanicalness, and it proves to us the concept that we have many different i’s that are not fused together into a single individuality.

We also discover all the things outside of us that act against us and prevent us from achieving our aim, and this proves to us the concept of the general law and the constant actions of A influences and their suppressive influence on our lives.

So by attempting to achieve an aim, we attain self-knowledge of our programs, what we like and don’t like, where we’re strong and where we’re weak, and we learn about reality as a whole and how it is set up to prevent us from achieving anything of real value.

It’s in working against these things that we are pursuing actual esoteric work, building our Will, fusing an individuality that is capable of really Doing something.

For someone who is not a good obyvatel, who hasn’t got their life in order, then becoming a good obyvatel is The Work.

There are many reasons why one must be a good obyvatel first. The aims of the obyvatel are totally tangible and realistic and definite. The obyvatel isn’t trying to discover the secrets of the universe, or navigate the imaginal realms of angels and demons. The obyvatel is trying to fight against laziness, disorganisation, maintain their composure, have a positive effect on their immediate environment and their own life and the lives of those they interact with on a daily basis.

The efforts required to achieve this and the lessons learned during the process are the foundations for anything else to be built upon. It’s like, one can’t stand firm without truly knowing where the ground is.

But all of the above doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t pursue subjects that one is interested in. We should just always ask ourselves how whatever it is we’re doing is getting us closer to our aim, or if it’s a dissociative distraction, or worse.
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Thank you. This post has cleared up some of the confusion I felt regarding this topic. Guess I've been kind of doing the Work all along!
 
Hi Andrey, I think you had some good answers already. One thing I would add is that Gurdjieff had a good awareness of the psychological differences between human beings. This may be one of the reasons for his comments about the level of the obyvatel. He used different terminology to us, but people we would describe as narcissists or personality disordered would be examples of people who often make very poor obyvatels. They would also be poor candidates for the Work because they would be too satisfied with themselves as they already are.

Being a good obyvatel is also a solid foundation for the more difficult aspects of the Work. If your finances, health, household, relationships etc. are in good order then you will be in a better state of mind and have the energy for more difficult things (including research into the more esoteric). Sustained self observation and building will are just really hard. The world provides many opportunities to practice them but is also always ready and willing to provide the perfect lullaby to induce sleep.

So to answer your original post, they are both parts of the same process and intrinsically linked to each other. We focus on what is before us to do and network about it, and everyone has a unique set of challenges, skills and weaknesses.
 
I wanted to add if you are making honest improvement every day by
putting sirious effort in what you know is right thing to do
and see yourself how can you do it even better - that's it.
Without lying and making excuses.
Or how JP would say if you are making order from chaos by learning, accepting things and making the best of it.
Life always provides us many opportunities to push forward and grow in different areas.
But you got many great answers here already ;-)
 
Andrey said:
Hello.

I'm working on putting my life together and the model of the good obyvatel is something I am aspiring towards. It has been said that the Work cannot begin on a level lower than an obyvatel.

I was wondering if this is a hard and fast rule. I am/was under the impression that it is, so I have not really begun any kind of esoteric work. I have even been holding off on reading many of the threads on this subsection of the forum and focusing solely on getting my life together. It's got to the point I've even sort of subconsciously abandoned the idea of esoteric development and only care about becoming a better person.

With all that being said, I am starting to recognize the need to do and read about some Work related topics in order to assist me in putting my life together.

So ironically, what started me off on this path has become the reverse... adding Work elements in my life to help me become a good obyvatel.

So to keep it really short here, I was wondering if this has to be done in a linear fashion... becoming a good obyvatel first, then and only then begin the Work, or are we allowed to be more flexible here, and if so what should we be cautious about if we prematurely begin some aspects of the Work.

Personally, I feel it's OK to do both. But that's just how I feel right now. Correct me if you think this isn't a good idea and why. And if there is some wiggle room here, what do you think we should prioritize? I figure don't do the top shelf aspects of the Work right off the bat, but focus on just reading and absorbing the information first, and do some more or less harmless stuff. Or am I being too paranoid? Anyways, I'll stop right here. Thanks for reading.
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You are on the right path if you are asking this question. Good luck 👍
 
If I recall, I don't know where the exact quote came from (what book or talk or meeting) but I believe G said "proper" "correct" or another word like this - WORK starts when one is a good Obyvatel.

To me that's like saying you can tell how someone performs during the game/contest however in order to prepare for the game/contest one has to train, learn and prepare. Getting to Obyvatel and maintaining Obyvatel and progressing past Obyvatellevel all requires aspects of THE WORK. It also requires WORK to get to the Obyvatel "Status" once there, the knowledge and wisdom gained prior to that point is used to maintain and progress farther. I guess I liken it to you can't just "get the job" you have to learn how to read, write, math, industry specifics to be hired. being hired is when the career starts but is it? Learning and intent and progression toward the career is when it starts. So to not split hairs here I would say The Work starts when one is conscious of it and themselves and their intent to learn and interact with the work.

If one has a goal in mind and stops doing something "harmful" to themselves that takes them away from that goal that is improvement as they have improved their intellectual and or their emotion and or their physical centers to first become conscious that this "thing" is hampering their doing and then to enact action to not do the "thing" takes "WORK" thus "The Work" has started on your machine to get it under proper working conditions for proper action/thinking. If you have now made a 7% improvement or or a 50% improvement you are currently doing "The Work" and just because you improved in a single or multiple area's of your life it does not mean you are yet Obyvtale.

This question and this post contains black and white thinking (which is fine) like a painting there are many impressions colors and brush strokes that create the topic that we are all talking about here "Can I start the work when".... in essence you have starting The Work in a way by posing this question
 
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