Biodynamic Agriculture: inquiry into food as spiritual medicine

Little exercise suggestion for @benkostka and @iamthatis. In your recent exchanges on this topic, reread through each others' and your own contentious posts, make an effort to understand what the other was trying to convey and where you misinterpreted it, and then summarize the others' central point.
Joe,

I walked away and didn’t respond, then he brought me back in so I escalated. I went back through the thread before you suggested this as I always do. Additionally he did the same thing on the mud flood thread with Stellar where he accused her of having some sacred cow. It ain’t at the point where anything between me and him can be done over a forum, we’re in the closed door situation between two men. I have more thoughts that aren’t fit to type on the open forum.
 
Thanks for the suggestion, I've been thinking about the exchange over the past few days.

I see him saying that he's not interested in this approach and gave his reasons why. He's coming from a pragmatic (ie. 3D material) approach that is wary of food growing techniques that make reference to energies, higher realms, etc. He's also advocating eating meat, grass-fed beef or other livestock using regenerative practices. As such, there's also a critique of growing or eating of any veggies as an STS trap.

My misinterpretation of what he said was to take this preference of his and see it as a personal flaw with him, instead of seeing it as just an expression of one preference among many. It's a case of interpreting differences of opinion as a matter of right and wrong. I think this comes from my inability to put myself in his shoes and see that we all have our preferences, and it's not up to me to decide that for anyone else. As he said, I did not realize (and probably should have realized) that he had left the conversation long ago. I had the growing sense that he was posting to troll, when perhaps in reality he was just asking leave the conversation.

For what it's worth, @benkostka, my apologies if I caused you any undue stress. I let my emotions get the better of me.
 
For what it's worth, @benkostka, my apologies if I caused you any undue stress. I let my emotions get the better of me.
I don’t understand your answers so I don’t respond. I don’t really understand why Joe wanted us to review things like we’re kids. You’re a member of FOTCM and can work out whatever emotional stuff you need to in the privacy of the closed forum. I am not a member so I abide by the rules of the forum, and typically people get agitated with me because perhaps things aren’t nice. I have absolutely no problems with direct confrontation and would prefer a face to face chat.

It’s also a bit passive aggressive to call me a troll at this point without examples.

I see regenerative Ag as more than pragmatic, it’s a system that honors all of creation if done correctly so there’s more spiritual principles there than Steiner. It’s the Cain vs Abel story for me.

I didn’t “ask to leave” the conversation either. I left it, then you posted again without my reply.

There’s also something bizarre to me with anyone who prefaces an apology with “for what it’s worth”. You’re the one who determines the worth of your apology and the sincerity.

You don’t cause me undue stress, it’s more aggravating than anything because this has dragged out far longer than necessary.
 
I don’t understand your answers so I don’t respond. I don’t really understand why Joe wanted us to review things like we’re kids.

Maybe because you were both acting like kids rather than adults. And you seem to be continuing in that vein in your response.

You’re a member of FOTCM and can work out whatever emotional stuff you need to in the privacy of the closed forum.

This isn't about "working out emotional stuff", it's about ALL members making an effort to properly understand their own as well as others' perspectives and how and where they might intersect towards a better and more complete understanding of any given topic.

I am not a member so I abide by the rules of the forum, and typically people get agitated with me because perhaps things aren’t nice.

An implied rule (or necessary requirement) of the forum is for ALL members to make efforts to properly understand their own as well as others' perspectives and how and where they might intersect towards a better and more complete understanding of any given topic. In fact, that latter part is perhaps the main point of the forum.

It’s also a bit passive aggressive to call me a troll at this point without examples.

He didn't call you a troll. Read it again.

There’s also something bizarre to me with anyone who prefaces an apology with “for what it’s worth”. You’re the one who determines the worth of your apology and the sincerity.

Really? So the person receiving the apology has no input or interest whatsoever in how an apology is perceived?

You don’t cause me undue stress, it’s more aggravating than anything because this has dragged out far longer than necessary.
Aggravation causes stress.

In your responses here, you come across as defensive, and 'nitpicky' and seem to almost deliberately misinterpret what someone else is saying. Do you think that's conducive to a useful experience on this forum, both for yourself and others?
 
Thanks for all the input here., I haven't finished reading yet. I'm on the quest for healthy, nutrition rich soil that will produce gorgeous, abundant veggies. Last year I had my first garden.....I wont say it was a failure as I learned a lot and did grow some vegetables but my BIG problem was I was so ignorant of the soil quality. I bought bags of "compost" from different stores and many where basically just wood chips and I only added a small amount of worm casings and liquid fish fertilizer here and there ,so I've been learning. Over the winter the plan was to start a good compost pile that would be ready for this spring garden. With 2 households involved, me and my daughter, our intentions where good but we slacked off considerably and our compost pile is rather small at this point.

I have several raised beds and intend to add more. I was also using grow bags. I want to grow winter squash to store for one and I'm considering the mound method right on the ground. The squash that where planted directly into the ground last year, without anything else did much better then all the work I did in the raised beds! So the soil here is pretty good but has a fair amount of clay.

One thing I have going for me for the new garden is a lot of rabbit manure. I also bought a 50lb. bag of this fertilizer which my son had fabulous results with his tomato plants.
71XhqEX7wyL._AC_SL1500_.jpg


A few weeks ago I attended a two day seminar in New England US on regenerative agriculture. I bought a few books from the presenters while there: Nigel Palmer's The Regenerative Grower's Guide to Garden Amendments (making biologically diverse inoculants and mineral-rich amendments using leaf mold, weeds, eggshells, bones, etc.) and Bryan O'Hara's No-Till Intensive Vegetable Culture.. To be honest, I haven't read the books yet, although I am experimenting with Palmer's home-made soil tinctures and was about to look into Rudolph Steiner's techniques which O'Hara lauded as contributing significantly to the success of his ventures. All the speakers at the seminar emphasized "Listen to your plants......they will tell you what they need." At the end of O'Hara's presentation, he spoke of loving the land and the life you are nurturing; and being tuned to the spiritual processes of womb, birth, growth, maturity, fruition, and harvest.

Whenever I note that a kale seed (that is smaller than the proverbial mustard seed) can (a) (OMG) turn into a plant, and (b) provide kale salads all summer, I am in awe.

I am glad to be reminded to look more closely into Steiner's work, so I'll buy his agriculture book. Will it be the end-all for gardening? Doubtful. I haven't met the 'perfect somebody' as yet in my lifetime, but I have found much to be learned from a large number of 'imperfect' nobodies over time. Likewise, I've read some of Steiner and a bunch of his cohorts, and have been exposed to some interesting and unusual ideas; but I wouldn't join a cult and be their follower. If Steiner can offer ideas to enhance a spiritual union with the soil and plants and to "Listen and hear them speak" more astutely, that could enhance my garden, my dinners, and my life.

The Organic Grower website has an interview with O'Hara. A few excerpts are below.
[Bryan O'Hara] Book details biodynamic grower’s 30 years of no-till practices (Organic Grower)

"Since biodynamic growing techniques have been such a help at his own farm, O’Hara said it’s unfortunate that school of thought isn’t better understood. “Biodynamic is much more based on more spiritual concepts,” O’Hara said. “It really has a lot to do with working with nature as a living entity as God’s creation. It definitely is a more holistic view that incorporates the spiritual world into the work you’re doing on the farm.”

"While organic agriculture has respected the soil, he said, it’s been somewhat simplified through standardization.

"Biodynamics leader Rudolf Steiner’s ideas formed the basis for the biodynamic movement, but O’Hara notes that Steiner himself was quite flexible. “He talked tremendously about how what he was putting forth wasn’t dogmatic, and you need to continue to develop your ideas and how to work with natural systems in order to have effective agricultural systems,” O’Hara said. “Biodynamics is really strong on understanding how natural systems work, just how water works on the earth, or air, and how all the living systems on the earth work.”


I have to read the books soon, since spring is here, and will take some notes and copy and paste them here (e.g., some soil tincture recipes) maybe.
Thanks, these books look helpful.

“Biodynamic is much more based on more spiritual concepts,” O’Hara said. “It really has a lot to do with working with nature as a living entity as God’s creation. It definitely is a more holistic view that incorporates the spiritual world into the work you’re doing on the farm.”

I'm all about this. Some people have an ability to tune into nature and its a spiritual experience for them, I'm like that.

I can't get to technical with all this, just the basics for me. I follow a homesteader on youtube and she says she's had good results with planting with the phases of the moon. I want to look into that, fits with Steiner I believe.

Also, if you just want to eat fat and meat, consider throwing some fermented veggies in there. Just a little every day will be good for gut health during "lean times of survival". Its a good way of preserving your garden harvest that retains and adds to the nutritional quality.

I'm open to any advise :-D.
 
Maybe because you were both acting like kids rather than adults. And you seem to be continuing in that vein in your response.



This isn't about "working out emotional stuff", it's about ALL members making an effort to properly understand their own as well as others' perspectives and how and where they might intersect towards a better and more complete understanding of any given topic.



An implied rule (or necessary requirement) of the forum is for ALL members to make efforts to properly understand their own as well as others' perspectives and how and where they might intersect towards a better and more complete understanding of any given topic. In fact, that latter part is perhaps the main point of the forum.



He didn't call you a troll. Read it again.



Really? So the person receiving the apology has no input or interest whatsoever in how an apology is perceived?


Aggravation causes stress.

In your responses here, you come across as defensive, and 'nitpicky' and seem to almost deliberately misinterpret what someone else is saying. Do you think that's conducive to a useful experience on this forum, both for yourself and others?
The problem is none of these things should be discussed in soundbites over text. It’s absolutely unbecoming for men. Get it?
 
The problem is none of these things should be discussed in soundbites over text. It’s absolutely unbecoming for men. Get it?

No, I don't, and I'm pretty sure you see how that's not an option either. However, if you insist on any disagreements here being sorted out in person - when you know that's not possible - rather than on the forum where the disagreement started - then the only solution to keeping the forum as free of 'pissing contests' as possible is that you commit to refraining from getting defensive, nitpicky and willfully misinterpreting what other say in your posts. Seems an unreasonable approach for you to take, but it's up to you.
 
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I also bought a 50lb. bag of this fertilizer which my son had fabulous results with his tomato plants.

Bio-Live: I looked it up. Bio-Live (Fish bone meal, Fish meal, Alfalfa meal, Crab meal, Shrimp meal, Langbeinite (K,Mg,S), Humic acid, Kelp meal. ENDOmycorrhizae Glomus Intraradices. ECTOmycorrhizae Rhizoposon Villosulus. R. Tricoderma. Trichoderma Harzianum). It has really good reviews. It's available in very few places where I live, and it's quite pricey, but I may try it. It has an expiration date due to the microbes, so I should buy only enough to use in the short term.

One never knows how one suggestion or idea can change things dramatically. I went to a garage sale once and exclaimed at the owner's flamboyant, prolific vegetables. "What's your secret?" I asked. He told me he used 'Soilutions' (which costs about $12-$15/bag) in his soil. I tried it with vegetables which had never been able to grow in my garden. I mixed a cup of 'soilutions' in the hole dug for each seedling, and, lo and behold, every plant grew tall and productive. It was amazing.

Nonetheless, I feel slightly idiotic offering any kind of gardening insights, since I know very little. Explaining what I've learned from experience is ok, but reading a book by an expert is probably better. I've gardened since I was a kid, just for fun, and I'm still a novice, not scientific at all. I rely more on "feel" and the generosity of the earth than I do on any interventions on my part. I'm not sure that's very intelligent. But if a plant is hurting, or I'm interested in growing something that fails to thrive, then it's a motivation to do some research and make some changes or try some ideas that come to me and seem suitable.

Over the years, I've tried:

**Fresh cow manure: by the truck load.....it's my absolute favorite. Most excellent! But the milk farms here have all closed up shop and it has not been locally available for years.
Bull and horse manure: not bad, but it introduced a plethora of new and unwanted weeds. I wouldn't do it again.
Bone meal: it invited garden predators -- a raccoon or possum somehow got over the fence and dug up all the plants to get at the bone meal.
**A broken egg placed in each transplant hole: this worked really well until a possum discovered what I was doing. I know it was a possum this time because I bought an outdoor camera to catch the culprit at work.
Liquid fish fertilizer: it worked better in the greenhouse than in the garden. Some people ferment their own. There are some sophisticated recipes on-line. Other people I know keep things simple and simply throw fish parts in a bucket with water and some dried leaves and let it rot. If you leave it outside in the lawn it can attract unwanted animals.
**Kelp and seaweed collected at the beach. I've put buckets of raw seaweed (entangled with shells and sand) on the garden for years, and just let it deteriorate. It seems to have made a big difference over time, but it requires a lot of lifting and carrying (wet seaweed is heavy and it's a long walk from the beach to the car).
**Kitchen compost aged 6-18 months: Priceless! With a bonus: A lot of kitchen scraps have seeds (like pepper or cantalope seeds), which get lost in the mix. However, some composted seeds (particulary tomato seeds, winter squash seeds, and avocado seeds) are different; they must LOVE being composted and frozen over the winter. In late spring, if I put some mucky kitchen compost in a wheelbarrow and keep it watered, dozens of tomato plants and several squash plants will sprout (like spontaneous generation) and grow beautifully. All I have to do is pull them up and transplant them.
Manure Tea: my grandfather would put manure in a trash can, fill it with water, let it sit for some time, then put a bucket of the tea on each plant every week or two. So I've copied his 130 year old technique. It's become popular and more scientific now.
Egg Shell and Bone tinctures: There are many recipe alternatives on-line. I'm experimenting with Palmer's recipes now, because I met the man and he was kind, funny, and interesting.

My potting soil comes from grass clippings, green plants, and leaves piled up and left to deteriorate for 1-2 years. It's worked out nicely. I've learned that I must NOT put any plants that have gone to seed in that pile (especially crabgrass, smartweed and mugwort). I've heard that the heat generated by a normal compost pile will kill any unwanted seeds, but this pile never gets very hot, so the seeds survive and can reek havoc even years later.

Weeds are a problem. Some years ago, I planted only seedlings -- no seeds -- then sprinkled organic corn glutin all over the garden to prevent weed seeds from growing. The corn glutin was sprinkled twice -- spring and mid summer. (Three or four sprinklings would have been even better.) It was just an experiment. It worked very well. It made life so easy. It reduced weeds by probably 70%. But I never tried it again and went back to pulling the weeds up. Corn glutin shouldn't be used in the garden if you grow plants from seed (though it CAN be used if you plant with seeds if you are willing to deal with the tricky timing issue, but it is safest to use it only when you plant established seedlings, not seeds).

I can't always plant to the phases of the moon for lots of obvious reasons. However, both my father and I have both discovered that, in our neck of the woods (New England), pole beans and green peppers really must be planted according to the almanac or most of the seeds will just rot in the soil. Odd. All other plants have been far more flexible and forgiving.

Rabbit manure is reputed to be fabulous, but no one sells it around me. It should do wonders for you. I'm told it does not have to be composted like chicken poop, but can be used in the garden right off the hutch. Lucky you!

I'd love to replicate the ancient methods of biodynamic agriculture, but that's just not going to happen - well, not this year, anyway. It needs too many exotic ingredients and requires too much dedication for now. But I love reading about it and appreciating the wisdom of people who communicated more intimately with nature and the cosmos.

As an aside, my mother was a free spirit with a good heart and a quiet but shrewd intuition. She planted things. She did almost nothing to her garden or her plants except water them -- and she didn't water them very often; just when she remembered or felt like it. Yet every plant she touched thrived, blossomed, lived long, prospered, had many children and provided plentiful good fruit. I was humored by this, and also perplexed. So much output from so little input. But I think she was onto something. Spirit may very well be the greatest gardener.
 
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Well I was looking for an inspiration what to do this year with the farm, thinking about the new direction and here come this thread as a great inspiration!

Books mentioned in this thread are ordered and on the way.

I will be dry-planting corn in a newly cleared small area 10 by 20 feet which is pretty much 1-2 feet of dirt on top of slate (mountain rock) underneath. Hopi`s might have been onto something. There is nothing to lose. If it works, there will be an extra food for live stock.

Right on. According to one dry farming guide I've read, it turns out a lot of different crops can grow without any irrigation. It makes sense, too - an older lady from Saskatchewan let me know that her Grandmother never watered anything, and they always had a full garden. It's so weird for me to think of irrigation as a modern luxury.

Some dry farmed crops are fetching a higher price, apparently tasting better than conventionally grown stuff. When I did an apprenticeship farming medicinal herbs, I learned that the herbs create more healing juice if they grow in poor soil. Maybe it's kinda like humans - things go off if we're too pampered, but if there's a challenge in life, then we produce more flavour and medicine.

Here's an intro dry-farming pdf that I found to be good for newbs like myself:


Last summer I did an experiment, and seeded some carrots in the greenhouse in August, which is pretty late for Zone 6b/7a. The tops got to about 4-5 inches tall from what I remember, and then the agricultural water to my spot got turned off in October. They hibernated all winter, which got down to -25C, and I haven't watered them since then. So this experiment was a mix of dry farming and overwintering. They seem to be doing pretty good, considering what I put them through!

IMG_0014.jpg

I should mention that George the scarecrow and his pet, Tweety Bird - seen seated at the back - also spent all winter with them. Although I can't be too sure, I get the sense that these two also helped in their own strange and mysterious way...

I am not entirely dismissing the cow horn manure and silica, but it is an awful amount of extra work.
The horn manure thing sounds like fermenting fresh manure for a period of time. Since the horn is natural product and somewhat porous, I am wondering if it works as a catalyst between the manure and the soil and either speeding up/slowing down or even strengthening natural chemical reactions in the final product.
Horn silica gets me puzzled. Quartz, SiO2 is natural glass right? So when is gets ground to a dust then mixed with water and burried inside that horn, it may again thru this media "attract" soil nutrients otherwise hard obtainable? This will be an interesting project to see thru.

My understanding is that all the potions like the horn manures attract vibrations, which maybe are a kind of nutrient? I still don't really know what to make of it. I remember Gurdjieff talking about vibrations, and I've seen videos of cymatics where sound can shape sand and stuff like that, I feel put off by night club music playing in the grocery store - but poop buried in a cow horn for a year is a recipe for 'good vibes'?

Regenerative grazing sounds like something we are already doing, but with our heard growing, I am always on the lookout to do things better in the long run. Back in the day we started with 4 sheep and a ram and later this year if all goes well we are looking at close to 30 animals. Since we cannot "extend" our land without significant expense, learning how to make things more self-sufficient is one of our top priorities.

Make use of vertical space?

il_794xN.2244900478_6f3o.jpg


Will be reporting progress based on the ideas expressed.

All the best with your farm this year!
 
Thanks for all the input here., I haven't finished reading yet. I'm on the quest for healthy, nutrition rich soil that will produce gorgeous, abundant veggies. Last year I had my first garden.....I wont say it was a failure as I learned a lot and did grow some vegetables but my BIG problem was I was so ignorant of the soil quality. I bought bags of "compost" from different stores and many where basically just wood chips and I only added a small amount of worm casings and liquid fish fertilizer here and there ,so I've been learning. Over the winter the plan was to start a good compost pile that would be ready for this spring garden. With 2 households involved, me and my daughter, our intentions where good but we slacked off considerably and our compost pile is rather small at this point.

I have several raised beds and intend to add more. I was also using grow bags. I want to grow winter squash to store for one and I'm considering the mound method right on the ground. The squash that where planted directly into the ground last year, without anything else did much better then all the work I did in the raised beds! So the soil here is pretty good but has a fair amount of clay.

One thing I have going for me for the new garden is a lot of rabbit manure. I also bought a 50lb. bag of this fertilizer which my son had fabulous results with his tomato plants.
71XhqEX7wyL._AC_SL1500_.jpg



Thanks, these books look helpful.

I'm still in the process of understanding soil quality and proper compost making as well. One stellar vid that really opened my eyes was a beginner's soil biology class on YouTube with Dr. Elaine Ingham. She literally wrote the textbook on the soil food web, or soil ecology. For the longest time, I was directly at odds with Lobaczewski's great advice - 'never treat what you don't understand'. I didn't understand soil, and so I was doing all kinds of things I thought was okay, which in the end may have just been adding stress to plants that are already stressed out. Ingham's video gave me a baseline understanding for what healthy soil might look like, which then gave me a better sense of diagnosis of various issues, and also presents reasonable solutions. Here's the first vid in the series, which I found super accessible, in no small part because she's also a really entertaining speaker.


Based on what I learned from Dr. Ingham, when I hear about your squash success on the ground as opposed to the raised beds, I would guess that this may be because the ground soil still had some structure, ie. there was an intact, functioning community of of micro-organisms. She says that it's this balance of relationships that effectively cycle nutrients (N,P, K and dozens of others) and change them into forms that are available to plants.

She has other vids about making compost properly as well.
 
iamthatis, please stop trying to push Benkostka's buttons and just have a civil discussion please. Well, maybe you aren't TRYING to do that, but that IS what you are doing.
 
It's interesting seeing how many things that cartesian, materialistic science overlooks have been found to influence things in ways we may not fully understand.

While this is not the same thing as biodynamic farming, I was wondering if you've encountered much literature about "electroculture?" I randomly encountered some information on it on Instagram and Facebook, and I see online spaces devoted to sharing information about apparatuses they build to harness electromagnetism to improve the health and yields of crops. Most of these are apparatuses of copper and sometimes zinc or crystals, which act as a conductor of atmospheric electricity into the earth, with orientations with respect to the magnetic field seeming to help move the electricity to where it needs to go.

One particular book I was directed to was called Electroculture by Monsieur Justin Christofleau (Archive.org link). To read the preamble it's interesting to think the use of these was much more common in the 19th century. I'm not sure my 4 square meters of garden would be efficiently serviced by a pile 5 feet deep and 20 feet high, but it might work for a larger farming operation.

Here's some images I found while skimming which caught my eye:

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I was wondering if you've encountered much literature about "electroculture?"

In a post from the "pyramid power" thread, you can find this link to a site dedicated to electroculture, in wich there's several others pdf resources downloadable on this subject :







justin_christofleau_-_electroculture_1927_-_doc_yannick_van_doorne.pdf
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matteo_tavera_-_sacred_mission.pdf
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the_pyramid_1978_book_les_brown.pdf
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magnetoculture_layout_1.pdf
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7_page_summary_electroculture_yannick-_06-2011.pdf
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This site's intro :

"

Electroculture, good vibrations for plant growth.
Magnetoculture - Energetic agriculture or Electro agriculture


Electroculture, Natural energetic forces to increase fertility of the land
Earth and Cosmic energies
Electricity & Magnetism
Agricultural applications for soil fertility, healthy crops and increase yields.​

Picture



This english electroculture website is not so up to date as my french website. You can visite my french website and easely translate by pushing the translation button on the pages. You will also find lots more products on the pages and I send all over the world;
You will find also a lot more up to date information on my original french website : electroculture et magnetoculture

Electroculture is a group of techniques that uses electricity and magnetism to assist plant growth. Plants are sensitive to electricity and magnetism. Improved plant growth, quality and increased yields, are some of the noticeable effects. The technology can also be used to protect plants from pests and diseases.

Electroculture synonymous with magnetoculture are generic terms used to describe an assortment of techniques designed to amplify and focus magnetic and natural electric forces of nature to boost soil fertility, and plant growth. In Nature magnetic and electrical forces always manifest conjointly. Magnetoculture refers more specifically to magnetic influences and electroculture to electric influences on plant growth and soil fertility.
Electroculture and magnetoculture are based on a synthesis of recent discoveries in the field of Agriculture encompassing cosmic and telluric energies, electricity and magnetism.

Photo : Giant Sunflowers growing in my garden in 2009. This garden has magnetic bees wax capacitors dug in at several places around them to increase the magnetism and earth electricity locally to benefit the plants and soil."

Plants/2D world have yet to be fully understood by us 3D dwellers...!
 

The Effects of Biodynamic Farming on Environment and Food​

Story at a glance:
  • Food quality is determined by how it was grown. Certified organic food helps you avoid pesticides. But even organic foods may be lacking in important nutrients if grown in nutrient-poor soils
  • Biodynamic farming is a spiritual-ethical-ecological approach to agriculture initially developed by Rudolf Steiner in the 1920s. It’s an approach that can provide far superior harvests while simultaneously healing the Earth
  • The Biodynamic view is that a farm is a living organism — self-contained, self-sustaining, following the cycles of nature, and able to create its own health and vitality out of the living dynamics of the farm
  • The organic standard is the base of the Demeter standard, which then goes much further, taking into account the core idea of the farm as a closed system; solutions to disease, pest and weed control comes out of the farm system itself
  • Demeter is a global Biodynamic certification agency. Formed in 1928 in Germany, it’s the oldest ecological certification organization in the world. In Germany, 10% of the organic farmland is Biodynamic
 

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