Battery-Fueled Car / Tesla motors

Tigersoap

The Living Force
Here is the beginning of an article from WIRE

Martin Eberhard holds the brake down with his left foot and presses on the accelerator with his right. The motor revs, the car strains against the brake. I hear ... almost nothing. Just a quiet whine like the sound of a jet preparing for takeoff 5 miles away. We're belted into a shimmering black sports car on a quiet, tree-lined street in San Carlos, California, 23 miles south of San Francisco. It has taken Eberhard three years to get this prototype ready for mass production, but with the backing of PayPal cofounder Elon Musk, Google's Larry Page and Sergey Brin, and ex-eBay chief Jeff Skoll, he has created Silicon Valley's first real auto company.

"You see any cops?" Eberhard asks, shooting me a mischievous look. The car is vibrating, ready to launch. I'm the first journalist to get a ride.

He releases the brake and my head snaps back. One-one-thousand: I get a floating feeling, like going over the falls in a roller coaster. Two-one-thousand: The world tunnels, the trees blur. Three-one-thousand: We hit 60 miles per hour. Eberhard brakes. We're at a standstill again -- elapsed time, nine seconds. When potential buyers get a look at the vehicle this summer, it will be among the quickest production cars in the world. And, compared to other supercars like the Bugatti Veyron, Ferrari Enzo, and Lamborghini Diablo, it's a bargain. More intriguing: It has no combustion engine.

The trick? The Tesla Roadster is powered by 6,831 rechargeable lithium-ion batteries -- the same cells that run a laptop computer. Range: 250 miles. Fuel efficiency: 1 to 2 cents per mile. Top speed: more than 130 mph. The first cars will be built at a factory in England and are slated to hit the market next summer. And Tesla Motors, Eberhard's company, is already gearing up for a four-door battery-powered sedan...
The full article is here: http://www.wired.com/news/wiredmag/0,71414-0.html?tw=wn_index_18

And the link to the Tesla motors website : http://www.teslamotors.com/


In these time of oil scare I am wondering if this will be really available for the mass market as they seemed to be prepared to do.
 
Tigersoap said:
Here is the beginning of an article from WIRE

The Tesla Roadster is powered by 6,831 rechargeable lithium-ion batteries -- the same cells that run a laptop computer. Range: 250 miles. Fuel efficiency: 1 to 2 cents per mile.
Lithium-ion batteries that run laptop computers are very expensive. The small pack that runs my laptop costs over $100. So, someone must be joking here. :lol:
 
Maybe that's why it's so expensive

the sports car class lets Eberhard price it on the high end -- in the range of a Porsche 911 Carrera S, roughly $80,000
I never get the scientific jokes though :|
 
I don't think Li-ion batteries have a very long life, either - that 1-2 cents per mile must not take into account replacing the batteries in 3-6 years (or less) -
here's the wikipedia blurb on battery life -

"A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This drawback is not widely publicized.

At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that's full most of the time at 25 degrees Celsius, will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. This capacity loss begins from the time it was manufactured, and occurs even when the battery is unused. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0
 
When a good idea goes wrong.



  • Altering its course, Toyota has announced heavy investments in EV production, including three new batteries and entirely reworked production lines.
  • Solid-state batteries as well as NCM Monopolar technology with a claimed 621 miles of range make up the future of Toyota's BEVs.
  • In the footsteps of Tesla, Toyota will employ giga casting as well as autonomous production lines overseas, while the company simultaneously builds a North American battery research facility in Michigan.
Toyota hasn't exactly jumped on the electric vehicle bandwagon. With one dedicated EV crossover on the market and a few new hybrid models, it's loosely keeping up with broad industry standards while remaining wedded to the hybrid sector it pioneered. In fact, the brand lost its former CEO and public EV skeptic, Akio Toyoda, earlier this year in a corporate restructuring focused on electrification, replacing Toyoda with former Lexus branding officer Koji Sato.

The months since Sato's appointment have been markedly different, as Toyota softens its EV stance and even hints at an impending new electric architecture. But Toyota is taking it one step further this week, confirming an overhaul of its electric-vehicle production and parts processes.

Unveiling a sort of technology road map, Toyota confirms it will launch a more durable, energy-dense nickel cobalt manganese lithium-ion battery by 2026, with 621 miles of range and a fast-charge time of 20 minutes. These bZ4x-adjacent NCM batteries will be reserved for performance vehicles or high-end luxury models, though Toyota has a plan for its lower-end units as well.

Using the bipolar structure battery (found in the Japanese-market Aqua and Crown hybrid vehicles), Toyota will expand this LFP technology to new BEV models, with the company claiming a 20 percent increase in cruising range and a 40% reduction in cost compared to the current bZ4x.

EV enthusiasts can also expect a high-performance version of Ni-series bipolar lithium-ion batteries, indicating the possibility of low-cost, high-performance EVs to come from Toyota. These batteries will feature a high-nickel cathode, increasing range by 10 percent while lowering costs 10 percent, and are set for practical use by 2028.

Meanwhile:

June 14, 2023 8:47 am ET
Twitter has taken action against two accounts linked to a frequent critic of Tesla TSLA –0.52% and its CEO Elon Musk.

As of Tuesday afternoon, the Twitter accounts of PlainSite, @plainsite, and its founder Aaron Greenspan, @aarongreenspan, were suspended, according to Greenspan and those accounts’ status pages on the social-media site. They remained unavailable Wednesday.

PlainSite is an information service that posts documents, often obtained via Freedom of Information Act, or FOIA, requests, from federal and state courts, as well as regulators.

“I do not know what I did,” Greenspan told Barron’s, acknowledging he has been a critic of Musk in the past. Greenspan, a short seller of stocks, has also been involved in litigation with Musk, who controls Twitter as its largest investor.

The Tesla CEO, who has also headed Twitter, said in mid May that he had hired a new chief executive who would take over in about six weeks. Musk said he would serve as executive chairman and chief technology officer.

Short selling involves borrowing stock not owned and selling it in hopes of replacing the shares by buying them back at a lower price. It is a bearish bet because the short seller profits if the buyback price is lower than the initial sale price.

Short sellers typically do a lot of detailed research to identify stocks that could fall. Greenspan said FOIA requests are part of his research process, and that while he has shorted Tesla stock in the past, he isn’t short Tesla stock now.

Twitter’s email PR contact responded with a poop emoji when asked about the suspensions. The response appeared to be generated automatically. Musk didn’t immediately respond to a tweet asking him about the move. Tesla didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Several behaviors can lead to a suspension, according to Twitter rules, including sharing personal information. In December, Twitter suspended an account that tracked Musk’s jet, @ElonJet, for potentially disclosing information about Musk’s whereabouts in close to real time. The account was still suspended as of Wednesday morning.

Tesla shares have been on a run lately, rising for 13 consecutive trading sessions. That is the longest winning streak for the stock ever, according to Dow Jones Market Data.

Shares added 3.6% in Tuesday trading, closing at $258.71, while the S&P 500 SPX +0.85% and Nasdaq Composite COMP +0.59% rose 0.7% and 0.8%, respectively.

Write to Al Root at allen.root@dowjones.com
 
It looks like diesel and oil cars will be ban inside big cities. Does rural areas will survive without diesel - no, but they will use other fuels like natural gas or biofuels. My concern is how this electric cars will impact human health. The only solution I see is to have your own driver and sit inside a trailer.

Hydrogen is highly explosive and I don't think it will be use anyware except factories.
 
Translated to English 06/13/2023 at 09:55
With the future ban on thermal vehicles for sale, the State and the regions will deprive themselves of the manna of the TICPE levied on fuels. The idea could be to tax electric car models, while the sector currently benefits from numerous aids.

For several years now, electric cars have benefited from numerous aids in France. Buyers of 100% electric vehicles are at an advantage because the government, with the transition to clean mobility, wants to do away with combustion vehicles. However, fewer thermal vehicles in circulation represent less tax revenue with the internal consumption tax on energy products (TICPE), underlines Capital . Should electric vehicles be taxed?

500 billion euros to fill

The TICPE is a godsend. In 2019, this fuel tax brought in 37.7 billion euros. The state took 17 billion while the French transport infrastructure financing agency recovered 1.6 billion euros per year over the period 2013-2017 and 3 billion euros in 2020. Regions and the departments received 12.9 billion euros in 2019.

The transition to clean mobility has a cost: by adding the cost of installing charging infrastructure, the subsidies granted and the loss of revenue from the TICPE, 500 billion euros will soar over 20 years. according to a 2019 report by the Parliamentary Office for the Evaluation of Scientific and Technological Choices (OPECST). The penalties on thermal cars can slow down the deadline. "But since the objective is to no longer sell them from 2035, the State will have to substitute the current tax mechanism with another" , explained to our colleagues Paul Malliet, economist at the French Observatory of Economic Conjunctures. (OCFE).

A tax per kilometer?

In Australia, two states have introduced a kilometer tax on electrified vehicles (electric and plug-in hybrids) since 2021. In Norway, which has a large fleet of 100% clean vehicles, the country would like to tax luxury cars up to 25%, i.e. over 60,000 euros, whether thermal or electric. For the moment, in France, each recharge is taxed like electricity at home with the internal tax on final consumption of electricity (TICFE), local taxes, VAT and the tariff contribution for routing (CTA) . But nothing prevents the government from imposing the equivalent of the TICPE.

Even if electricity consumption will increase by 43% from 2020 to 2050 according to RTE figures, this will never compensate for the tax losses of the TICPE. In the OPECST report, it is recommended to apply “road pricing”, a tax per kilometer, rather than per electric kilowatt hour.

France shows interest in Chilean lithium
Video
France intends to "contribute to the Chilean adventure of the extraction and exploitation of lithium", affirmed in Santiago the French Minister in charge of Foreign Trade, Olivier Becht. Chile has the largest reserves in the world of this essential mineral for the manufacture of batteries for electric vehicles. Chilean President Gabriel Boric wants to take over the exploitation of this new white gold, with new public-private partnerships. A measure that still needs to get the green light from Congress where Gabriel Boric's party is not in the majority.

 
It looks like diesel and oil cars will be ban inside big cities. Does rural areas will survive without diesel - no, but they will use other fuels like natural gas or biofuels. My concern is how this electric cars will impact human health. The only solution I see is to have your own driver and sit inside a trailer.

Hydrogen is highly explosive and I don't think it will be use anyware except factories.
Nateral gas is an option for rural areas but it brings back all the problems of running petrol (gasoline). Its voletile (as in a spark is enough to ignite it including static electricity) Its requres a spark ignition engine which dosn't have the thermal efficancy od a compression ignition engine plus with a gaseous fuel ya can't just fuel from a tank or drum (that means special tanks/pumps etc = $$$). As for bio fuels ya might as well use horses like the Amish do because pasture and hay is a lot less procesing and cheaper to produce (that won't happen though because too slow to move machinery around and not fast enough for freight plus a lot of extra work ).
 
EVs are very inefficient compared to internal combustion engines (ICE). There are better forms of EVs (and water powered cars, rotary engines, air powered, aither, aluminum-air..) but they are kept off the markets.

Also keep in mind, the WEF wants 94-97% of the population dead. In 1992 Ted Turner put a global population target at 250-million (hybrid slaves) and the Guidestones have a SURGE amount of 500-million listed.

You'll be locked inside 15 minute prison districts, each one will have one EV. There won't be private ownership of anything and to use one would require enough MOBILITY credits (watch for mobility scores to start showing up soon), carbon credits, social credits.

The whole lockdown bit on only being allowed outside for 15-minutes (which will become permanent), only being able to walk a few miles was basically training the 'dogs'.

So the whole EV scam is done wrong on purpose - it's smoke and mirrors - you won't be allowed to drive for the most part. Also if you read up on the WEF Carbon-Zero (pdf) 'cars' will be restricted to 1000 kg - about the weight of a touring motorcycle. The ones being tested in Canada are limited to 35 kph, 3-wheels.
^- This is what they will have along with 1-sausage a month rations and 3-new items of clothing a year allowances.


Now in terms of EV/ICE consider many points. You want to examine the whole process (start to end) and the weather.

Gasoline/deasil is very high in terms of power transfer efficiency - from the cracking towers/refinery to end-use. Aside from a small amount used by the tanker truck it's close to 100% - no gasoline is wasted and there's processes used which capture vaporized fuel as well.

Lets take electricity -
- you loose 10% of the fuel in the combustion process used in electrical generation (obviously not the case with hydro).
- steam turbines are at best 40% efficient (Carnot's efficiency law) - this applies to coal, solar, oil, n. gas and nuclear.
- electrical GRIDs efficiencies range from below 30% efficiency to over 95% depending on the nation and location. They are also very polluting (EMF) and require much in the way of ores and materials (copper for example).
- and then there are loses every-time you convert - for example AC (plug) to DC (battery) plus there's loses in the battery and electronics.
.. so by the time the electricity gets into the battery most of it has already been lost.


.. now in terms of climate in many colder areas a EV can loose up to 60% of their range - running a cabin heater inside, defroster, heated seats and below certain temperatures a battery may not recharge.

With an ICE the waste heat is NOT waste - it's used to heat the cabin, defrost the ice/snow on the windshield, remove fog on the inside and more. So in a way the efficiency increases in colder temperatures with an ICE and lowers with an EV.


Batteries I'll cover another time - the EVs use Li-ion which is complete BS.
btw - a battery pack is used to store the energy - compare that to an ICE gas tank which stores energy in the form of gasoline. My ICE car is 22-years old, the gas-tank is still working at 100% - what's the efficiency on a 22-year olf battery pack? It's very cheap to replace (few hundred dollars versus a new battery pack as listed in an earlier post - if they still produce one for that car), uses very little materials to make (some stamped metal and rubber), doesn't loose capacity as it ages and can be recycled.

A battery versus a gasoline tank - what a joke.
 
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Reuters Total Views: 6417 July 27, 2023 By Lisa Baertlein and Anthony Deutsch
LOS ANGELES/AMSTERDAM, July 27 (Reuters) – Electric vehicles are crisscrossing the globe to reach their eager buyers, but the battery technology involved in the zero-emission automobiles is exposing under-prepared maritime shippers to the risk of hard-to-control fires, industry, insurance and emergency response officials said.

That risk has been put under the spotlight by the burning car carrier drifting off the Dutch coast. The Dutch coastguard said the fire’s cause was unknown, but Dutch broadcaster RTL released a recording in which an emergency responder is heard saying, “the fire started in the battery of an electric car.”

While all logistics companies deal with the risk of EV lithium-ion batteries burning with twice the energy of a normal fire, the maritime industry hasn’t kept up with the developing technology and how it creates greater risk, maritime officials and insurers said.

A Brief Look Back at Recent Car Carrier Fires

There were 209 ship fires reported during 2022, the highest number in a decade and 17% more than in 2021, according to a report from insurer Allianz Global Corporate & Specialty (AGCS) ALVG.DE. Of that total, 13 occurred on car carriers, but how many involved EVs was not available.

The European Maritime Safety Agency said in a March report the main cargo types identified as responsible for “a large share of cargo fire accidents included … lithium-ion batteries.”

There were 3,783 new cars on board, including 498 electric battery vehicles, a spokesperson of ship chartering company “K” Line said on Friday. Initial reports had put the number of electric vehicles at just 25.

Shipping Losses Hit Record Low in 2022, But New Challenges Emerge

Japan’s Shoei Kisen, which owns the ship, said it was working with authorities to get control of the fire.

The cause of the fire, while still officially undetermined, has raised questions about “what blind spots there are when transporting electric cars powered by batteries – which when they catch fire can’t be extinguished with water, or even by oxygen deprivation,” said Nathan Habers, spokesperson for the Royal Association of Netherlands Shipowners (KVNR).

“The first question that comes to mind is: Does the current code stack up against the risk profile of this type of goods?” he added.

One hazard in lithium-ion batteries is “thermal runaway,” a rapid and unstoppable increase in temperature that leads to fires in EVs that are hard to extinguish and can spontaneously reignite.

Fire extinguishing systems on the massive ships that haul cars weren’t designed for those hotter fires, and shipping companies and regulators are scrambling to catch up, said Douglas Dillon, executive director of the Tri-state Maritime Safety Association that covers Delaware, Pennsylvania and New Jersey.

Recent fire-related losses are resulting in increased insurance costs for automakers shipping cargo and costs are likely to increase for vessel owners as well, said John Frazee, a managing director at insurance broker Marsh. As ship owners seek to limit losses by legally pursuing automakers whose vehicles are determined to have caused a fire, automakers are buying additional liability protection, he said.

Exacerbating the risks is the business model used by the companies that includes tightly packed ships. Auto carriers like the burning ship are known as RoRos, which stands for roll-on/roll-off – the way cars are loaded and unloaded.

RoRos are like floating parking garages and can have a dozen or more decks carrying thousands of vehicles, industry officials said. Unlike parking lots, however, cars are parked bumper-to-bumper with as little as a foot or two of space overhead.

Firemen typically put out EV battery fires on roadsides by clearing the area around the burning vehicle and flooding the underside with water, something difficult to do on a RoRo, Dillon said.

“There’s no way for a firefighter in protective gear to get to the location of a fire” on a ship, he said, adding the cramped conditions increase the danger getting trapped.

While trains and trucks also transport EVs, isolating and extinguishing fires is easier as workers can unhook a rail car and a trucker can pull over, said Frazee.

Frazee expects insurers to lead the charge on strengthening safety systems on ships. Options being worked on include new chemicals to douse flames, specialized EV fire blankets, battery piercing fire hose nozzles and proposals to segregate EVs.

“I see no quick solution,” Frazee said.

The International Maritime Organization, which sets regulations for safety at sea, plans to evaluate new measures next year for ships transporting EVs in light of the growing number of fires on cargo ships, a spokesperson told Reuters.

That could include specifications on types of water extinguishers available on boats and limitations on the amount a battery can be charged, which impacts flammability.

With EVs here to stay, KVNR’s Habers said his group is discussing tightening regulations to account for the additional safety risks.

“There is already a whole lot of communication underway about this,” he said, “but with this incident it becomes apparent we might need to speed up the process, especially when you consider that the number of this sort of cars is only going to rise.”

Global auto sales last year totaled 81 million vehicles, 9.5% of which were EVs, according to EV-Volumes.com. China and Europe have been the most aggressive regions in pushing automakers to shift to EVs, and U.S. President Joe Biden’s administration has proposed rules that could result in as much as two-thirds of the new vehicle market shifting to EVs by 2032.

(Reporting by Lisa Baertlein in Los Angeles and Anthony Deutsch in Amsterdam, additional reporting by Victoria Waldersee in Berlin, editing by Ben Klayman and Diane Craft)


 
"EV Poverty" - this guy has many serious points, ignored as usual, although he did it from a place of humour mixed in (UK focused):

The New Poll Tax? What is "EV Poverty" and Why We Should All be Concerned​


 
Totally crazy story


A driver has told how he was "kidnapped" by his runaway electric car and forced to dodge red lights and roundabouts.
Brian Morrison, 53, from Glasgow, said he was heading home from work on Sunday night when he said his brand new MG ZS EV became stuck at 30mph.
The brakes would not work and he had to dial 999 from inside the car.
Police were forced to stop the runaway car by allowing it to slowly crash into their police van.
He added: "It might not sound like it is very fast, but when you have no control over the speed and you're completely stuck inside, it's terrifying."
Mr Morrison initially called his wife in a panic to ask her to warn vehicles ahead of him that he could not stop his car.
He called 999 when he grew concerned about crashing into pedestrians and navigating more roundabouts and traffic lights.
"The car was just running away on its own, there was nothing I could do," he said.
"When I dialled 999, they sent police to help and put some engineers on the line to try and solve the problem, and they were asking if it was a self-driving car.
"It was the first time that the call handlers had experienced the issue, and they had no idea what to do."

30mph is plenty fast enough if you hit something, or someone! Thankfully this turned out ok.

The really scary part is that the brakes didn't work. You should always be able to rely on the brakes whatever malfunctions occur. I had a bike stuck in gear once and the brakes saved me. Old fashioned hydraulics with limited electronic control are best until they figure this out.
 
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