"Sluggish" Liver issues.

[Gaby]

a fast intestinal transit will leave the bile not all processed, so feces are commonly green (could be interpreted as yellowish-green); if there is insufficient bile, the feces may be clay colored or pale. The longer the transit time, the more processing time for the bile, so the more dark brown the feces will become.

Thanks for clarifying, I was probably typing too fast or doing something else at the same time :/ :)

 

[nicklebleu]

I just ran across the following article on bile acids and colon cancer here:

Bile Acids Link High-Fat Diet to Colon Cancer

Bile acids could be the missing link between a high-fat, Western-style diet and colon cancer, UA researchers and their collaborators have discovered.

Bile acids could be the missing link between a high-fat, Western-style diet and colon cancer, University of Arizona researchers and their collaborators have discovered.

Seventeen out of 18 mice fed a standard diet topped off with bile acid developed colon tumors after eight or 10 months, the scientists report in the journal Archives of Toxicology.

"It has been known for a while that a diet rich in fat poses a risk for colon cancer," said Carol Bernstein, a research associate professor in the UA College of Medicine's department of cell biology and anatomy and lead author of the study.

"But until now, it wasn't known exactly why."

Her husband and co-author, Harris Bernstein, added: "Since the 1970s, people in the field have suspected that bile acids play a role, but they were thought to act merely as promoters, enhancing the cancer-causing effect of some other substance. Our findings show that bile acids themselves cause colon cancer."

Harris Bernstein is a professor of cell biology and anatomy.

Over the past 25 years, the Bernsteins have collected evidence suggesting that bile acids cause changes in the cells lining the walls of the colon, sending them down a path toward becoming cancerous.

"The bile acids cause damage to the cells' DNA, leading to mutations," explained Carol Bernstein. "Those mutations then cause changes in the activity of cancer-related genes."

Encouraged by their findings in mice, the Bernsteins are submitting a grant proposal to investigate the bile acids' role in cancer formation in more detail and how it compares to the situation in humans.

Bile acids are the body's own "dishwashing detergent." Produced by the liver and stored in the gall bladder, they are released into the intestinal tract to emulsify fat in food once it is passed on from the stomach to the intestine.

"Because it has been known for a while that bile acids such as deoxycholic acid, or DOC, play a key role in the formation of colon cancer, we wanted to know whether DOC alone is enough to trigger tumor formation," said Carol Bernstein.

To test their hypothesis, the scientists divided wild-type mice into four groups and fed them a standard diet for eight to 10 months, either with or without DOC added. DOC levels were assessed in the study animals' excrements. To make the experiments relevant to the human condition, the Bernsteins added DOC to the point where it showed up at the level found in previous studies in humans who were eating a high-fat diet.

"Obviously, there is still a difference in that mice are much smaller than humans," Carol Bernstein said, "and the exposure is much longer in humans. We get colon cancer mostly after the age of 50."

Of the 18 mice that received DOC in addition to the standard diet, all but one (94 percent) developed colon tumors, including 10 animals whose tumors had progressed to full-blown cancers. In contrast, no tumors were found in mice eating a standard diet without DOC.

Previous work done by the Bernsteins and other scientists showed that bile acids lead to the formation of additional reactive oxygen species, molecules that can damage cells. Also called free radicals, these molecules are normal by-products of metabolism. They are highly reactive, and if they encounter another molecule such as a protein or DNA, a chemical reaction occurs in which the target molecule is damaged.

The Bernsteins believe that DOC could increase reactive oxygen species to a level beyond the ability of a cell to repair all the damages they cause, ultimately leading to cancer.

"Even the average human cell that is not exposed to excess bile acids accrues about 10,000 damages over the course of a day through normal metabolism," Harris Bernstein said. The cells in our bodies depend on specialized enzymes to repair these average levels of damage."

Could bile acid cause colon cancer by ramping up the levels of the destructive free radicals? To address this question, the researchers fed mice with a standard diet containing bile acid, but also chlorogenic acid, an antioxidant found at high levels in blueberries, coffee and eggplant. Antioxidants are known to protect cells from damage by oxygen radicals.

Only 64 percent of mice in this category developed tumors, suggesting that chlorogenic acid offsets some of the cell damage inflicted by the bile acid.

Again, no colon tumors were found in any of the mice belonging to the control group fed with a standard diet plus antioxidant.

The Bernsteins are now beginning to measure the levels of excess DNA damage caused by increased DOC in the colons of mice. They are also starting to find reductions in DNA repair enzymes caused by addition of DOC to the diet.

Their new work could further explain the mechanism of how bile acids cause progression to cancer in the colon.

I am not sure how to interpret this, so I was wondering if anyone has feedback about it -- they are not saying that there is a link between a high-fat diet and colon cancer per se, just that it is mediated by high levels of bile acid.

Just a few thoughts to the study mentioned earlier in this thread:

I find the study setup entirely artificial.

First they use DOC, one of the secondary bile acids for their study. Probably because it is available cheaply in industrial quantities (see here).

The other point is, that they fed the mice a fixed amount of fat (their "standard" diet) and variing amounts of bile acid. This is not a physiological situation, because the gallbladder actually adjusts the amount of bile secreted into the gut according to the load of fat. If you don't eat any fat at all - or are on a low-fat diet - the amount of bile secreted will be minimal, the bulk of it will be stored in the gallbladder (provided you still have it!). So it is not the normal situation that you have too much bile acids traveling down your gut that haven't been "used". Maybe if you had your gallbladder surgically removed, then the body cannot store the bile in the gallbladder anymore and has to eject it into the duodenum as it is unable now to store it.

And other have already pointed out, that we don't know what their "standard" diet looks like (it most probably follows the USDA food pyramid).

In conclusion, I am not sure if one can deduct any useful information from that study - except that you should try to avoid to loose your gallbladder ...

 

[clearmiddle]

Just a few thoughts to the study mentioned earlier in this thread:

I find the study setup entirely artificial...

Starting with erroneous assumptions it's hard to go anywhere useful. The starting assumption here seems to be that "high fat" is unhealthy and causes colon cancer, rather than that many common foods (processed fat & carbohydrates, etc.) are unhealthy and cause cancer and all kinds of other problems.

What does the result mean if the assumption was false? What can be shown about the "link" between high fat and colon cancer if high fat wasn't the cause to begin with?

 

[Mr.Anderson]

Liver Problem?

For the last few months I have had a very strange skin irritation above my right hip. I just want to scratch. A holistic health practitioner said I may have a sluggish liver. I have been taking Milk Thistle, Dandelion etc. for two months with no relief. I have also quit glueton, dairy and cut way back on carbs in the last two months. The last two weeks I have cut back even more on carbs.

I didn't eat much meat in the 70 & 80's, then started eating more after around 2000. Maybe my problem started way back and I need more time to adjust to a high fat/protien low carb etc diet?

Any suggestions?

 

[RyanX]

Re: Liver Problem?

Any suggestions?

Hi Mr. Anderson,

I merged your question about a sluggish liver with the Sluggish Liver thread here. You might want to look back on this thread to see if there are any helpful tips.

 

[Mr.Anderson]

Thanks. I found lots of great advice.

 

[Seamus]

I've been taking 12 capsules of milk thistle (600mg each) per day, plus 1000 - 1200 IU of vitamin E, plus vitamin D (2000 - 4000 IU), plus alpha lipoic acid (200 - 400 mg/day), plus magnesium citrate and vitamin C according to my own needs, and it really does seem to help with my sluggish liver issues.

I'm having trouble finding any soy free sources of vitamin E. Any suggestions?

 

[Gaby]

I'm having trouble finding any soy free sources of vitamin E. Any suggestions?

If you can't find any locally, you'll probably have to order it online. At _iherb.com there are several brands available and you can make a search by "vitamin E soy free" as well.

 

[Seamus]

Thanks psyche, I found one on iherb.

 

[Nienna]

After doing just fine on a high fat/low carb diet since we started this diet, just within the last few weeks I have noticed that I am having, what looks like liquid fat in my stools. Every great once in a while that is all that comes out.

I am wondering if I have blocked bile ducts? Or could it be something else? I do have regular stools and only every so often this happens. I eat a small amount of green beans for a very small amount of sweet potato every other day or so, with fat. I am taking MegaEnzymes and Betaine HCI. When I was taking the ox bile, I had a lot of diarrhea and gas so stopped them.

Any suggestions?

 

[SeekinTruth]

Nienna, it sounds like it might be blocked up bile ducts. I recently posted about the liver cleanse again this morning. Betaine HCl is really good, but I think it's more for protein digestion, but I'm not positive. Bile is needed to digest fat (and protein, if I remember correctly). So if there isn't enough bile being excreted into the intestines when fat is consumed, there's going to be undigested fat coming out in the stools. And other problems can also develop.

Maybe someone else will chime in with more info.

Here's the thread (The Amazing Liver and Gallbladder Flush) I posted in this morning with a link to a post in this thread giving Hulda Clark's (she says she doesn't take credit for it, it was developed by others over many years, she just "perfected" it) liver cleanse protocol. http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,13804.0.html

 

[Nienna]

Nienna, it sounds like it might be blocked up bile ducts. I recently posted about the liver cleanse again this morning. Betaine HCl is really good, but I think it's more for protein digestion, but I'm not positive. Bile is needed to digest fat (and protein, if I remember correctly). So if there isn't enough bile being excreted into the intestines when fat is consumed, there's going to be undigested fat coming out in the stools. And other problems can also develop.

Maybe someone else will chime in with more info.

Here's the thread (The Amazing Liver and Gallbladder Flush) I posted in this morning with a link to a post in this thread giving Hulda Clark's (she says she doesn't take credit for it, it was developed by others over many years, she just "perfected" it) liver cleanse protocol. http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,13804.0.html

Thank you SeekinTruth, I read your post there and that's what made me think that the cleanse may be what I need. I am wondering, though, about eating nothing but carbs for the day and the following morning, how hard it will be to get back on the ketogenic diet, etc. These are my only concerns as I don't do well on a high-carb diet. I have a lot of pain when I do. And eating fruit is not what I want to do. I was wondering if steaming some veggies would be as good? Like green beans and sweet potato, or summer squash, as these don't bother me as much as other things do.

 

[RedFox]

I had something similar happen a few weeks ago (although, it could have been trying boat butter). Two things that have helped is reducing my fat intake and upping my protein a little, also taking magnesium on an empty stomach before breakfast (which may suggest its a bile duct thing too - magnesium will help the bile duct open).

 

[SeekinTruth]

Yes, RedFox, that's what the Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) do -- open the bile ducts so the stuck gallstones come out. So magnesium probably WILL do that.

Nienna, that's what the problem is with me thinking about doing the cleanse too. I made my mother a little bit of sliced carrots and beats boiled in very little water and she ate small portions twice couple of hours apart until 2 PM after which you can't eat anymore. So she didn't get knocked out of ketosis as far as I could tell. She was in excruciating pain and she HAD to do it to get relief. I had an attack like that in the early 2000's and I KNOW how painful the spasms are.

So if you eat small portions of cooked veggies you might be able to get through. Also the next day when you start eating. My mother had chicken broth with very little fat in it (skinned chicken) and more carrots and beats couple of hours after the last Epsom salt dose. And then she went back to eating fatty pork by dinner time. So you can probably do it carefully and NOT get knocked out of ketosis. Just avoid fruits, obviously, or too much carbs in each portion. I think you might be able to get through without going over 40 or 50 grams of net carbs for either the first or the second day.

Just want to reiterate, if this kind of acute gallstone attack happens, you can get immediate relief from the pain by mixing a tablespoon of Epsom Salts in 3/4 cup of water. Then do the liver cleanse as soon as you can.

 

[Nienna]

Yes, RedFox, that's what the Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) do -- open the bile ducts so the stuck gallstones come out. So magnesium probably WILL do that.

Nienna, that's what the problem is with me thinking about doing the cleanse too. I made my mother a little bit of sliced carrots and beats boiled in very little water and she ate small portions twice couple of hours apart until 2 PM after which you can't eat anymore. So she didn't get knocked out of ketosis as far as I could tell. She was in excruciating pain and she HAD to do it to get relief. I had an attack like that in the early 2000's and I KNOW how painful the spasms are.

So if you eat small portions of cooked veggies you might be able to get through. Also the next day when you start eating. My mother had chicken broth with very little fat in it (skinned chicken) and more carrots and beats couple of hours after the last Epsom salt dose. And then she went back to eating fatty pork by dinner time. So you can probably do it carefully and NOT get knocked out of ketosis. Just avoid fruits, obviously, or too much carbs in each portion. I think you might be able to get through without going over 40 or 50 grams of net carbs for either the first or the second day.

Just want to reiterate, if this kind of acute gallstone attack happens, you can get immediate relief from the pain by mixing a tablespoon of Epsom Salts in 3/4 cup of water. Then do the liver cleanse as soon as you can.

Okay, thanks st. That helps a lot.