Kaleah LaRoche - Narcissism Expert or Another Sam Vaknin?

[durabone]

Thank you anart. Here's some fleshing out of the terms that you provided:
_http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/cluster_b_personality_disorders

This helped, appreciate. It is interesting that I came to understand the wounded from
personal experience with myself and others healing. Thus my initial understanding of
Narcissism was based on the wounding paradigm. I have seen the psychopathic thing
at a level that convinced me the person was in that state for "this fore-seeable lifetime"
but I guess I need now to think over some examples of non-wounded Ns. I also want
to discuss this wounding thing more with my LMFT friend. So far, she thinks that the
wounding paradigm is as you put it: "they cannot be cured, though they can pretend to
be cured to serve their purposes." AKA she thinks it's bunk. She also has not read any
of the big 5. Our common dialog about N behavior is based on "Help I'm in love with a
Narcissist," and her iron flattening of all Ns comes both from her training and her years
of listening to every trick out there with her patients. If I could pick one of the big 5, if
I only had one recommendation I could make to her, which one presents the wounding
and the disorder theories, which one would we here choose? Again, thanks.

 

[Laura]

The wounding is best represented in "The Narcissistic Family" by the Pressmans. Also, "Trapped in the Mirror." Most of the clinical descriptions of NPD strike me as being a description of an "ambulatory psychopath."

 

[durabone]

Thank you Laura; I'll order it, we'll see.

That is an interesting phrase "ambulatory psychopath." I am in complete agreement that Ps exhibit N characteristics at times. I grew my understanding of a very successful psychopath by observing that he was in intense self-dislike, but he was in denial about that. So as his skill set widened, he progressed from simply grooming himself in the mirror, to extracting admiration from others, to doing so with extreme urgency, to firing off multiple destructive rounds at us on many levels in a single day. (He was sodomized daily as a child by his 33rd degree freemason Dad, so he was wounded deeply to boot, and he ended up killing himself because to have a doctor look at the festering tumor he had, would've revealed to himself and us how much he was lying, so he never went).

This expansion of his took place concurrently with him inserting himself onto a larger social podium than he had ever experienced. Thus Lobaczewski's notion of a psychopath's scope of reach taken together with Snakes in Suits, and my experience with many mid-level managers in Silicon Valley suggest that a very key time to explore whether someone is a psychopath may be during/after their promotion. There may be a period of them being so enamored with how important they are that they stop focusing on you long enough that their guard is dropped. Then also after, they re-scope themselves to their new office, and their elevate whole level of damage, access to food, etc. Good time to use your nose?

 

[Guardian]

The wounding is best represented in "The Narcissistic Family" by the Pressmans. Also, "Trapped in the Mirror." Most of the clinical descriptions of NPD strike me as being a description of an "ambulatory psychopath."

Do you think being given up for adoption could result in a form of "Narcissistic wounding?"

 

[purplehaze]

Looks like Kaleah has some competition

_http://www.lisaescott.com/2010/07/18/8-steps-relationship-recovery_

another one with music CDs

her blog posts say she's using Subconcious Restructuring to cure victims?
she quotes Vaknin as an "eminent narcissism expert"

And the members are talking openly about a meeting in Chicago? On a public forum?

Does anyone else smell trouble here?

 

[Mateo]

Hi folks, newbie here and glad to have stumbled on your group. FYI, having been formerly married to a clinically diagnosed NPD/BPD, have also acquired an ongoing interest in this area. I like the "ambulatory psychopath" moniker (LOL!), although since all the Cluster B disorders share the same characteristic absence of empathy, I suspect the the differences (for example "psychopathic" vs "sociopathic") have more to do with how messed up their basic emotional drives may be (due to possible childhood abuse, etc.). And in that sense, I like psychotherapist Alexander Lowen's model, that Narcissism is basically a denial of the true (emotional) self. Lowen was very big on how the body’s needs and feelings can be consciously denied and betrayed, studied the origins of this split, and how how the division between mind and body effects personality.

While it's easy to demonize these folks (who are capable of no small bit of harm), I'm also interested to see how we can view this increasingly common "condition" in a more "human" and compassionate way. From that standpoint, I appreciate this description by Lowen,
"Narcissism is partly a reactive formation, a complex of intertwined defense mechanisms, a network of survival tactics. One develops narcissism because the alternative is death (slow or fast). Death from emotional starvation, pain, abuse, and trauma. These negative emotions coupled with the negative events that fostered them sink and accumulate in one's spiritual veins, a sediment leading to the emotional infarct called "narcissism".

Without my narcissism, I am not only naked - I am a fetus. I am exposed to bursts of hurt that stand an excellent chance of eliminating me altogether, emotionally, perhaps physically. My narcissism is functional, it is adaptive, it helps me breathe. By denying and repressing my SELF, I deny and suppress my biggest enemy. I have seen the enemy - and it is I."

BTW, speaking of all the various Narcissism "experts", etc., dunno whether any of you have had any experience with the forum "Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group", a site that purports to provide support for recovering partners of N's. Of course if I had bothered to investigate it beforehand, I would have also seen all the online complaints, that it basically seems to be run by N's (including Vaknin), and IMHO is actually using the more "drama-oriented" participants for their Narcissistic supply ("here, let me give you my expert advice on your problem... and the more needy you are, and the more needed I am, the better")!

 

[Jacques]

Hi Mateo,

Welcome to our forum. :)

We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read.

You can have a look through that board to see how others have done it.

 

[ana]

Hi folks, newbie here and glad to have stumbled on your group. FYI, having been formerly married to a clinically diagnosed NPD/BPD

Hi Mateo,

How did it affect yourself?

 

[Mateo]

Thanks folks, understood and will try to put something up on the Newbie/intro section.

That's a good question re: how Narcissists affect us personally, and especially after being in an intimate relationship with one. And as I've told friends, if you want to learn more about yourself (including all your vulnerabilities & needs), then get involved with a Narcissist. Because in a real sense, when you're struggling with them, I think you're also struggling with yourself & your own weaknesses, which they're only too willing to exploit. My other personal "takeaways" from the experience include the recognition of Narcissism in all of us to some degree or another (including myself), along with of course the "antennae" to help detect it now.

It's obviously becoming a media buzzword these days, and is increasingly being analyzed and written about (as well as "cashed in on", as folks have noted here). But aside from Lowen's therapeutic writings, I think the cultural aspects have still been best covered by Christopher Lasch in "The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in an Age of Diminishing Expectations".

Since acquiring an appreciation for how common it is in the general population, especially in modern western culture, I've also formed this "theory" that Narcissism is closely linked to the modern phenomenon of Right Wing Extremism (aka "Right Wing Authoritarianism" as coined by social psychologist & researcher Bob Altemeyer). Although it's really not about any political party, or as Altemeyer says, "The right wing authoritarian personality has less to do with a political view than it does with a psychological personality structure". Arguably Democrats were coopted by their own Authoritarian extremists back in the 60's & 70's, and Altemeyer concludes that the Authoritarian types may simply find a more hospitable climate for their values now within the Republican party.

In any case, it seems to me that there's a pretty remarkable match between the classic symptoms of clinical Narcissism, and the behaviors of Right Wing Extremists (and no offense intended to anyone, but I include the religious extremists in that category as well). To quote the symptoms from Potamus' link:
- Feels grandiose and self-important;
- Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);
- Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);
- Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favourable priority treatment;
- Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;
- Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with, acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others;
- Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly (i.e. "conspiracy theories");
- Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, "above the law", and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy.
- Solipsistic thinking ("it's so because I think it is"), is "Entitled", and Denies any personal responsibility (my additions)

What's more, even aside from the politics, I have the sense that by cultivating the ongoing "Rage du Jour" (ala Beck, Limbaugh, Colter, etc.), I believe that Right Wing media is actually catering to the unique psychological and emotional needs of this peculiar "niche market".

 

[anart]

Hi Mateo,

From what you've written, I think it's vitally important for you to understand the difference between 'garden variety' narcissism and pathological narcissism. What is discussed here, for the most part, is pathological narcissism. Confusing the two can cause issues, since pathological narcissism is not curable, is not normal, is not to be confused with the norm of human behavior.

There is a recommended reading section on the forum under the Books heading that you might want to check out since many of the books in the psychology section will help you understand the difference between 'garden variety' narcissism and pathological narcissism.

 

[Mateo]

Gosh, how many Administrators are there here! ;D

"Anart"... not sure your point, but sounds like you think I don't understand the distinction and if that's so, can you be more specific about what gives you that idea (and also how's it relevant here)? Especially as I've already specifically mentioned that I was married to someone who was clinically diagnosed with NPD (with BPD co-morbidity) and the symptoms I refer to are the same clinical symptoms also referenced by others here?

BTW, for the sake of current discussions and just so we're "on the same page", specifically which of the (many) current theories and/or research re: Narcissism do you personally ascribe to, and what's your own understanding of the distinction(s)? Do you think there's actually a "dividing line" anywhere between the so-called "garden variety" and "clinical " (aka "pathological") types of Narcissism (and what is it)?

 

[anart]

Gosh, how many Administrators are there here! ;D

"Anart"... not sure your point, but sounds like you think I don't understand the distinction and if that's so, can you be more specific about what gives you that idea (and also how's it relevant here)? Especially as I've already specifically mentioned that I was married to someone who was clinically diagnosed with NPD (with BPD co-morbidity) and the symptoms I refer to are the same clinical symptoms also referenced by others here?

BTW, for the sake of current discussions and just so we're "on the same page", specifically which of the (many) current theories and/or research re: Narcissism do you personally ascribe to, and what's your own understanding of the distinction(s)? Do you think there's actually a "dividing line" anywhere between the so-called "garden variety" and "clinical " (aka "pathological") types of Narcissism (and what is it)?

It's this line that has me questioning your understanding of the difference between pathological narcissism and garden variety:

While it's easy to demonize these folks (who are capable of no small bit of harm), I'm also interested to see how we can view this increasingly common "condition" in a more "human" and compassionate way.

There is no need for a more 'humane and compassionate' view of pathological narcissism. It is what it is, which is a Cluster B personality disorder. Cluster B personality disorders do not get 'cured'. Blurring the definition and distinction, by equating it with what you define as 'this increasingly common condition' serves no one but the pathological individual.

My point is merely that part of understanding pathological narcissism is not projecting ones hopes and desires onto it - but seeing it as it is, which is a pathology, pure and simple - not a normal state of human behavior. Hopefully this clarifies.

 

[Mateo]

Anart... first, if I answer someone's questions here, just as a courtesy I'd sure appreciate it if they would answer mine in return. For example if you're going to take issue with me about making some "distinction" ("garden variety" vs "pathological"), that's fine, but I did ask exactly what you think that distinction is (and if so, is there a "line" somewhere)?

Yes, I can see you've already indicated here (several times and quite strongly) that you feel Narcissism is "incurable".
Butt the fact of the matter is that while some authorities agree on this, others do not (including Kohut himself, and Schema and Object Relations Therapists, among others):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2678027
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a904836617
http://www.apa.org/pubs/videos/4310804.aspx

Or perhaps you simply disagree with Gurdjieff's, “A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour.”

But even if Narcissism (or anything else) is "incurable", I'm still not sure why even Narcissists should deserve any less "humane and compassionate" approach than any other malady (alcoholism, drug addiction, OCD, ADHD, Asperger's, etc.). Aren't they still human beings, whatever the "risks" of dealing with them? And don't we all have some responsibility, besides simply labeling folks as "monsters" or psychological "pariahs"?

Actually I'm kinda surprised at your lack of empathy about this, and considering the number of ideas I've raised here, am curious that this is apparently the only one that seems to grab your attention.

BTW, I checked out the link to your website (www.SOTT.net), and apologies if my comments about political extremism caused any offense.

Cheers, -m.

 

[anart]

Anart... first, if I answer someone's questions here, just as a courtesy I'd sure appreciate it if they would answer mine in return. For example if you're going to take issue with me about making some "distinction" ("garden variety" vs "pathological"), that's fine, but I did ask exactly what you think that distinction is (and if so, is there a "line" somewhere)?

Hi Mateo, I am not 'not answering' your questions. I simply don't have the time to re-write everything that has been written on the forum and associated web pages regarding pathological narcissism. If you would please take the time to get up to speed on the subject, that would be a big help.

Yes, I can see you've already indicated here (several times and quite strongly) that you feel Narcissism is "incurable".
Butt the fact of the matter is that while some authorities agree on this, others do not (including Kohut himself, and Schema and Object Relations Therapists, among others):

It, as always, depends on what you define as an 'authority'. Again, if you could take the time to get up to speed with the information on the forum, the recommended reading and the associated web pages, that would be fantastic.

Or perhaps you simply disagree with Gurdjieff's, “A man is never the same for long. He is continually changing. He seldom remains the same even for half an hour.”

Gurdjieff wasn't referring to pathological disorders when he wrote this.

But even if Narcissism (or anything else) is "incurable", I'm still not sure why even Narcissists should deserve any less "humane and compassionate" approach than any other malady (alcoholism, drug addiction, OCD, ADHD, Asperger's, etc.). Aren't they still human beings, whatever the "risks" of dealing with them? And don't we all have some responsibility, besides simply labeling folks as "monsters" or psychological "pariahs"?

If you could get up to speed on the information presented here and on the associated web pages, that would be great. There is a big difference between understanding something as it is without emotional content and blurring of definitions and 'labeling' anything as a monster.

Actually I'm kinda surprised at your lack of empathy about this, and considering the number of ideas I've raised here, am curious that this is apparently the only one that seems to grab your attention.

BTW, I checked out the link to your website (www.SOTT.net), and apologies if my comments about political extremism caused any offense.

Cheers, -m.

My comments don't betray a lack of empathy, Mateo - they have to do with objective definitions and understanding. I'm not sure what you mean by your comment that this is the only thing that grabbed my attention. I am simply trying to point out that blurring the lines between pathology and normal human wounding and behavior serves no one but the pathological person. We see this happen time and time again and it simply serves to deflect from a true understanding of the pathology and its effects. I am not even slightly offended by anything you've written, I'm just trying to point out that there appears to be some clarity currently missing in your definitions, and when dealing with pathological disorders, a lack of clarity is not only really easy to have, but quite detrimental.

 

[ana]

Thanks folks, understood and will try to put something up on the Newbie/intro section.

That's a good question re: how Narcissists affect us personally, and especially after being in an intimate relationship with one.

May i also ask, why did your relationship end?