Zoroastrianism a Paleolithic Religion, Origin of Monotheism, Salvation Theology?


Padawan Learner
My post above - Not much stuff on the Rig Veda

Okay, so i searched instead for 'Vedas' and got a partial answer in session of 12 Aug 1995:-

August 12, 1995
Direct Channeling with Frank, Laura, SV

The usual caveats about the direct channeling sessions apply though this was one of the better ones.

Trance induced.

Q: Are you ready to receive questions?

A: Yes.

[Suggestions given for clarity of communication.]

Q: (L) Do you have any messages to give S or myself at this time?

A: No.

Q: (L) Okay. Then we’ll get to our questions. My first question is: What is the source of the Vedas? The Hindu system of philosophy?

A: There is more than one source.

Q: (L) What is the general source, positive or...?

A: A very vague question.

Q: (L) Was it a group of people that put them together over centuries, or was it channeled information, or...?

A: It came into being as a result of meditation.

Q: (L) And what race of people was responsible for this information?

A: Caucasian.

Q: (L) What period of time were the Vedas received.

A: Varying bits and pieces of information which later was organized into packages labeled as it is.

Q: (L) From what realm did this meditated information issue?

A: The realm of the subconscious mind.

Q: (L) Are any of the Vedas information that was given to man by extra-terrestrials?

A: Not as you would define it.

Q: (L) From what types of beings, or what level of density did this information issue from?

A: Third.

Q: (L) Can you give us anything more on that in a general sense?

A: If you ask.

Q: (L) What is the percentage of accuracy of the information given in the Vedas? Overall?

A: Accurate at what level?

Q: (L) Third Density.

A: Accurate to what extent and in what way?

Q: (L) Well, in a general sense, as a way of living one's life and perceiving the universe.

A: That's an extremely difficult question to answer as accuracy in determining such things as perceiving the universe and living one's life is entirely open to interpretation as anyone can resolve accuracy by relating to the parallel universe which is appropriate for the information given. And, as we have stated in the past, it is possible to create parallel universes through thought energy, and once they are created naturally, they correspond naturally to the interpretation given for them.

Q: (L) Is there any benefit to be obtained through the use of mantras?

A: Especially when the mind says there is. Remember, most all power necessary for altering reality and physicality is contained within the belief center of the mind. This is something you will understand more closely when you reach 4th density reality where physicality is no longer a prison, but is instead, your home, for you to alter as you please. In your current state, you have the misinterpretation of believing that reality is finite and therein lies your difficulty with finite physical existence. We are surprised that you are still not able to completely grasp this concept.

Q: (L) Well, I think I have a good grasp of this concept, but I am asking questions to obtain answers for others to comprehend.

A: That is not being completely honest.

Still, the C's need to be probed further . . . including the Vedic-Zoroastrian link . . .


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Since Laura is now interested in following this Zoroastrianism research, I thought I should mention one interesting thing. Several years ago, one person recommended to me that I should read a book 'God Speaks' by Meher Baba. I started reading it and quickly realized that it's the worst piece of literature I saw in my life, to say the least.

But one thing that made me very curious was his description of evolution of the soul, which sounds very similar to the description that Laura got from C's, except that he was not describing it in hyperdimensional terms. I wondered about that and came to the conclusion that he most probably got it from somebody else. Supposedly, he had several teachers which you can find on Wikipedia. But I never investigated that further because I was too busy reading other things.

Well, in the meantime, somebody made an article on Wikipedia, so you can see what I'm talking about. There is even a graphical presentation of his theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involution_(Meher_Baba)



FOTCM Member
FWIW, Equivalence of Mithraic Tauroctony and Cippus of Horus scenes

Image Above - Mithraic Tauroctony (Roman, circa 0 AD, left) and Cippus of Horus scene (Egyptian, New Dynasty, 1st millennium BC and earlier)

The Mithraic Tauroctony scene (above left) has fascinated scholars for hundreds of years (see here). The origin of Mithraism and the meaning of its symbolism has proven to be a tricky problem. Early ideas centred on its origin in Persia in the 2nd or 3rd millennium BC, because of the dress-code of Mithras and because bull-slaying is a known theme of Persian Zoroastrianism (the primordial bull is slain by Ahriman, who perhaps becomes Mithras in ancient Rome).

However, more recently the astronomical interpretation of David Ulansey, an American Professor of comparative mythology at Princeton, has gained favour. He interprets the scene as a change of age, from the age of Taurus into the age of Aries. Therefore, the scene displays knowledge of precession of the equinoxes. Familiar symbols support his view, as the Tauroctony scene normally includes a serpent (interpreted as hydra) and a scorpion (obviously Scorpius, representing the autumn equinox). Accordingly, the date referenced is around 2000 BC, to within a few hundred years, when Taurus represents the spring equinox. However, to make this scheme work, Ulansey suggests the equatorial constellations, rather then the usual zodiacal constellations, are used. Therefore, Hydra represents the summer solstice. To ensure the serpent is reliably identified as the Hydra constellation, a crow (representing Corvus) is often present.

Ulansey takes the conventional view that Hipparchus discovered precession, and therefore Mithraism follows this discovery chronologically. This also influences his interpretation of Mithraism as a relatively modern Roman mystery religion born in the 1st or 2nd century BC. Accordingly, Mithras is seen as an all-powerful creator god who controls time, and he doubts the link to any earlier (e.g. Persian) religion.

While I agree with much of Ulansey's thesis, his assumption about the discovery of precession by Hipparchus, and therefore the relatively modern status of Mithraism, is now known to be incorrect. Indeed, I suspect both these earlier views of Mithraism are largely correct and can be combined, i.e. Mithraism is an adaption of a much older religion that also used precession of the equinoxes symbolically to represent a golden age circa 3000 to 2500 BC.

In fact, I have previously shown how the Cippus of Horus scene (above right) essentially describes a similar scene, or at least a similar date, using precession of the equinoxes. This scene was popular in later dynasties of Ancient Egypt. However, the Cippus of Horus scene uses zodiacal, rather than equatorial constellations, and all four of the constellations are used. Therefore, we can equate the Mithraic bull with the Egyptian crocodile (Taurus, spring) and the Mithraic serpent with the Egyptian lion (hydra/Leo, summer). The scorpion (autumn) is the same in both scenes.

Finally, the Cippus of Horus scene includes an ibex/gazelle, representing Aquarius for the winter solstice. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent symbol in the Tauroctony, unless, that is, we re-interpret the dog as a fox, which we know from Gobekli Tepe can represent the northern part of Aquarius. But this looks to be too much of a stretch in most cases.


FOTCM Member
Mary Settegast presents a case for putting the time of Zarathustra around 6300BC, which she says was the time of the agricultural revolution. Within a short period of time a vast region turned towards sedentary life and that of farming. She says that Zarathustra got rid of the warrior class and that to worship God was to cultivate the land and make it fruitful. The role of the priests/followers of Zarathustra was to bring knowledge about plant breeding, animal husbandry, irrigation techniques etc.

It sounds as if he was a reformer like Paul after him, who was trying to right the wrongs and put the human cosmic connection in focus.

According to Settegast then some of the problems of dating Zarathustra might have arisen due to it also becoming a title like a high priest (p. 214). If that was the case, then Pythagoras might well have been taught by a person going by the name/title Zarathustra, as was mentioned earlier in the thread without it being the founder of the religion.

Below a few excerpt from Plato, Prehistorian:

The historical situation of Zarathustra, on the other hand, called for the healing of the Good Creation itself, for restoration of faith in the inherent sanctity of the material world. He too saw the cosmos as the work of the divine architect, but Zarathustra advocated the perfecting of the earth as well as the individual, through man’s collaboration with that creator. The way to God for his own inner circle of disciples is therefore likely to have been rather more active than contemplative, and centered on an intimated knowledge of the transformative possibilities in all nature, not merely one’s own. Historians of religion have in fact commented on the emphasis the prophet placed on the religious value of accurate knowledge of this world: (Pay attention to objective reality and gain knowledge and awareness).

To be sure, it is not a matter of abstract science in the modern sense of the term, but of a creative thought that discovers and at the same time creates the structures of the world and the universe of values that is their correlative.
(p. 268)

Midway in the course of history Zarathustra came to offer (or to remind men of) the opportunity to collaborate in the work of redemption, in the restoration of perfection toward which all creation is striving.(222)

The prayer, “may we be those who will renew this existence,” is seen as an indication that Zarathustra’s followers also believed that the crisis would come in their own time, allowing them personally to contribute to the triumph of Ahura Mazda over evil. (223)

The following sentence made me think of Paul and the book “Paul’s necessary sin”:

“He who cultivates corn cultivates righteousness”(p. 259).

It is likely that Zarathustra had an awakening experience like Paul and thought of ways to pass it on so that others would also start to gain this awakening of consciousness that then would guide them. Creating an active relationship with God via being a good steward of the land and making it fruitful was perhaps his way towards awakening people to this inner guiding feeling and to develop virtues. As I read the word “righteousness” in the sentence above, I thought of Timothy Ashworth and translation. Was something lost in the translation from the original language into English due to the lack of words in the English language regarding such words as righteousness?

In any event, the prophet is generally credited with being the first to teach that each man must bear the responsibility for the fate of his own soul, as well as share in the responsibility for the fate of the world. (or as JP would say, clean up your room, do something with your life, take responsibility, become a better person).

Faithful to this vision of man as God’s ally, and to the basic monotheism of the Gathas, was Zarathustra’s replacement of personified gods by qualities of the person. The Entities or Amesha Spentas (Holy Immortals) that surround Ahura Mazda are at once divine and human: Vohu Manah (Good Thought), Asha(Right Order), Khshathra (Sovereign Power), Haurvatat (Immortality), Ameretat (Wholeness or Integrity), and Armaiti (Right-Mindedness or Humility). Aspects of Ahura, they are also virtues of the perfected man. By cultivating these qualities in himself, the individual could realize his own likeness to the divine, and, as each Entity was to be associated with the protection of some particular aspect of creation (Haurvatat, water; Ameretat, plants), his commitment to the stewardship of the earth – one of the principal tenets of the Zoroastrian religion – was secured as well. (p.221)

As one scholar saw it, Zarathustra “abolished the worship of Time or Fate,” concentrating instead of man’s active participation in the struggle between the creative and destructive spirits. (p.216)

This ties up with the idea from the C’s that the struggle is through us, that we are not separate from this but that it is played out in us.

Zarathustra did not believe in cyclical time but in linear time (p.222). Perhaps a reaction to the times he was living in.

Settegast does a great job in her two books on the subject and documenting all the movements and and changes in the region. She would have benefitted from some insight into catastrophism and cometary impacts, where Sweetman does a better job regarding the subject. That knowledge was not that known or accepted at the time when she wrote the first book.


FOTCM Member
We got to delve into Zoroaster's times, teachings and great influence in the latest MindMatters show, with a follow-up and fleshing out of this subject in a part 2 show coming next week.

And we'd like to thank you all for tuning in as the MindMatters YT channel continues to grow, bit by bit, with all the great support we've been receiving from you!

MindMatters: Zoroastrianism: The Ancient System of Values That Sought to Change The World, And Did

More than several millennia ago, a spiritual leader in Persia had a very high vision and ideal for humanity that he labored to preach and spread. In what is now known as Iran, this priest and reformer - who we know as Zarathustra (or Zoroaster) - began with a strong conception of both good and evil, and man's choice to be a manifestation of either. He saw this choice, and the awareness of it as a choice - as not only crucial to the future of his tribe and his countrymen, but to the well being of the world at large. Along with this very basic but essential concept was Zoroaster's advocacy for man's connection and respect for nature, a cohesive society, and reverence for a higher cosmological order.

Considering Zoroastrianism's huge influence and widespread appeal, and the two thousand or more years that it helped lift up the ancient world, what can be said of its impact on other of the world's ancient religions? And perhaps more importantly, what religious, social and cultural ideas does Zoroastrianism teach that we may benefit from today? This week on MindMatters we discuss these and several other features of this ancient religion, that though mostly lost to this time, could not be more timely.



FOTCM Member
Here's the part 2 show on Zoroastrianism. We hope ya'll enjoy it!

MindMatters: Zarathustra Returns! What We Can Learn From The Persian Prophet

Everything old is new again. Or it can be, if we let it. Though several thousand years old, the teachings and guidance for making the right decisions - in all things - can be seen in the words and ideas of Zoroaster, and the writings that grew out of his movement. Seeking to give individuals a view of their place in the grand scheme of life, and acknowledging the part that man has in manifesting a higher order of thought and action - was the 'mission' of the profoundly influential prophet.

In MindMatters' continued discussion of Zarathustra and the religion known as Zoroastrianism, we examine just what this leading figure of antiquity sought to do. And just how far-reaching and relevant his concepts became. We also take a look at Zoroaster's pre-Christian eschatology or his take on what an 'end times' was really about - among several other concepts that informed the world's great monotheistic religions to come. Sometimes we have to look back at things to take a step forwards; what things might we take in about this ancient teaching that would assist us in just such an effort? It turns out there is a lot to learn from Zoroastrianism's cosmology and its framework for the moral uplifting of the world.


Tuatha de Danaan

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I really enjoyed the presentation.
Thank you very much. Having read IN SEARCH OF ZARATHUSTRA and WHEN ZARATHUSTRA SPOKE. your inclusion of other books on the prophet really opened up and fleshed out my understanding. It becomes so obvious. that certain essential truths have, seemingly, always existed. These truths,although certainly always present, became bogged down and hidden under dogma and plain human ignorance.

Really looking forward to your show on ST. PAUL. I have read PAUL'S NECESSARY SIN. I've read it on Kindle so struggled with that format. I'm going to buy the book as I feel much more comfortable with a book in my hand.
I also found Ashworth's comparisions with 2 other translators a bit too much information for me and really distracted me and just seemed to break up the flow. No one else has complained of this so just shows my failings as a reader. When I get the book I'm going to miss these sections out and stick to his reasonings. which are so revealing.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
While reading From Paul to Mark I was intrigued by a footnote Laura entered with regard to the particular Essene practices of covering oneself when relieving oneself outside and burying one's waste so that it does "not affront the divine rays of light" (pg 43):
A Zoroastrian-Enochian idea which will be discussed in full in a future volume.

I became intrigued by this topic so I ended up looking for more information in the Book of Enoch itself and a book on the Zend Avesta, searching specifically for the word "light" and it came up with some pretty interesting passages.

CHAP. 38.—First Parable. When the congregation of the just shall appear, and the sinners are condemned because of their sins, and expelled from the face of the earth, 2. and when the Just One shall appear in the presence of the just who are chosen, whose deeds hang on the Lord of the spirits, and the light shall appear to the just and to the chosen, who dwell on the earth,—where will be the habitation of the sinners, and where the resting-places of those who have denied the Lord of the spirits?

Chapter 58.—And I began to speak the third Parable concerning the just and concerning the chosen. 2. Blessed are ye, the just and chosen, for your portion is glorious! 3. And the just will be in the light of the sun, and the chosen in the light of everlasting life; and there will be no end to the days of their life, and the days of the holy will be without number. 4.And they will seek the light and will find justice with the Lord of the spirits; there will be peace to the just with the Lord of the world. 5. And after that it will be said to the holy, that they should seek in heaven the secrets of justice, the portion of faith [fidelity], for it has risen like the sun on the earth, and darkness has disappeared. 6. And there will be an unceasing light, and in the number of days they will not enter, because darkness will be destroyed first, and the light will be mighty before the Lord of the spirits, and the light of rectitude will be strong in eternity before the Lord of the spirits

CHAP. 71.—And it came to pass after this that my spirit was hidden, and it ascended into the heavens; there I saw the sons of the angels stepping on a flame of fire; their clothes were white and also their garments; and the light of their faces was like crystal. 2. And I saw two rivers of fire, and the light of that fire flamed like hyacinth, and I fell on my face before the Lord of the spirits. 3. And Michael, an angel from among the chiefs of the angels, took me by the right hand and lifted me up, and led me out to all the secrets of mercy and to the secrets of justice. 4. And he showed me all the secrets of the ends of heaven, and all the repositories of the stars and of the luminaries, and whence they proceed into the presence of the holy ones. 5. And the spirit moved Enoch into the heaven of heavens. And I saw therein the midst of the light how there was something which was built of crystal stone, and between these stones tongues of living fire. 6. And my spirit saw how a fire surrounded this house, on the four sides rivers full of living fire, and how they surrounded this house. 7. And around about were Seraphim and Cherubim and Ophanim; these are they who do not sleep,but guard the throne of his glory. 8. And I saw angels who could not be numbered, a thousand times thousand, and ten thousand times ten thousand, surrounded that house, and Michael and Rufael, Gabriel and Fanuel, and the holy angels who are in the high heavens enter and leave that house. 9. And Michael and Gabriel, Rufael and Fanuel, and many holy angels without number came out of that house; 10. And with them the Head of days, his head white and clean as wool, and his garments beyond description. 11. And I fell on my face, and all my flesh melted, and my spirit was changed; and I cried with a loud voice, with the spirit of power, and I blessed and honored and exalted. 12. And these blessings, which proceeded from my mouth, were pleasing before that Head of days. 13. And that Head of days came with Michael and Gabriel, Rufael and Fanuel, and with thousands and with ten thousand times thousand angels without number. 14. And that angel came to me and greeted me with his voice and said to me: “Thou art a son of man who was born to justice,and justice dwells over thee, and the justice of the Head of days will not depart from thee.”15. And he said to me: “He calls ‘Peace’ unto thee in the name of the world which is to come, for thence peace proceeds since the creation of the world, and thus it will be to thee to eternity and from eternity to eternity. 16. And all who will continue to walk in thy path (thou, whom justice does not leave in eternity), their dwelling-places will be with thee, and they will not be separated from thee in eternity and from eternity to eternity. 17. And so long life will be with that Son of man, and peace will be to the just, and his right path to the just,in the name of the Lord of the spirits to all eternity.

CHAP. 96.—Hope, ye just, for the sinners will be destroyed suddenly before you, and the power over them will be to you as ye desire. 2. And in the day of the trouble of the sinners your children will mount and rise like eagles, and your nest will be higher than the hawk, and ye will ascend and go like the squirrels into the recesses of the earth, and into the clefts of the rock to eternity, before the unjust; but they will lament over you, and cry like satyrs. 3. But fear not, ye who suffer, for a healing will be to you, and a brilliant light will shine for you, and ye will hear the voice of rest from heaven.

So light in Enoch seems associated strongly with a positive bestowal from cosmic forces. "Light of everlasting life," "light of rectitude." And then there is the celestial hierarchy replete with names and functions. It's really odd, how we as westerners have been raised with this intuitive understanding of the light being the good, truth, knowledge, beauty, et cetera. But we never consider where that idea comes from. There's some justification for thinking it's innate, when we associate the sun with seeing, the fire with warmth and safety and seeing in the dark, and so on. There's also a lot of other apocalyptic elements the quotes doesn't capture, like a void or pit where 7 stars which broke God's commands have been bound in punishment. Seems like there's two types of lights: light and fire, and they are one at the throne. Further out, the good receive the beneficent light while the evil suffer in fire.

Some of the more orthodox or traditional takes on the Fire of Pentecost and the Fires of Hell is that they really have the same source ultimately, and it's the composition of our own soul that determines how we perceive it. I remember an earlier Mind Matters episode on Stoic metaphysics talking about how everlasting fire was the primal element out of which (in descending order) air, water, and earth were composed. In alchemical texts earth was equated with the senses, water with emotion, air with thought, and fire with creativity. So telling a carnal person they were going to hell wasn't seen as some punishment but more as an observation that their own psychic world was composed of baser elements, which would be dissolved rather painfully when the wheel turned and the universe began to dissolve back into primordial fire again.

Anyway, now onto some quotes I found in a book on the Zend Avesta Part I The Vendidad, Sacred Books of the East Volume 4:

Ahura is all light, truth, goodness, .and knowledge; Angra Mainyu is all darkness, falsehood, wickedness, and ignorance 2• Ahura dwells in the infinite light ; Angra -Mainyu dwells in the infinite night.

The serpent, Ari Dabaka, let loose, takes hold of the world again. As the temporary disappearance of the light was often mythically described either as the sleeping of the god, or as his absence, or death, its reappearance was indicative of the awakening of the hero, or his return, or the arrival of a son born to him. Hence came the tales about KeresAspa awakening from his sleep to kill the snake finally 1; the tales about Pesh6tanu, Aghra~ratha, Khumbya, and others living in remote countries till the day of the last fight is come 2; and, lastly, the tales about Saoshyant, the son who is to be born to Zarathustra at the end of time, and to bring eternal light and life to mankind, as his father brought them the law and the truth. This brings us to the question whether any historical reality underlies the legend of Zarathustra or Zoroaster.

This view (of the sacrilege of burning or burying corpses) originated from the notion of the holiness of the elements being pushed to an extreme. The elements, fire, earth, and water are holy, and during the Indo-Iranian period they were already considered so, and in the Vedas they are worshiped as godlike beings. Yet this did not prevent the Indian from burning his dead; death did not appear to him so decidedly a work of the demon, and the dead man was a traveler to the other world, whom the fire kindly carried to his heavenly abode 'on his undecaying, flying pinions, wherewith he killed the demons.' The fire was in that, as in the sacrifice, the god that goes from earth to heaven, from man to god, the mediator, the god most friendly to man. In Persia it remains more distant from him ; being an earthly form of the eternal, infinite, godly light 3, no death, no uncleanness can be allowed to enter it, as it is here below the purest offspring of the good spirit, the purest part of his pure creation. Its only function is to repel the fiends with its bright blazing. In every place where Parsis are settled, an everlasting fire is kept, the Bahram fire, which, 'preserved by a more than Vestal care 1,' and ever fed with perfumes and dry well-blazing wood, whichever side its flames are brought by the wind, it goes and kills thousands and thousands of fiends, as Bahrim does in heaven ll, If the necessities of life oblige us to /employ fire for profane uses, it must be only for a time an exile on our hearth, or in the oven of the potter, and it must go thence to the Right-Place of the fire (DAity~ GAtu), the altar of the Bahram fire, there to be restored to the dignity and rights of its nature.

The Commentary has here the following Zend quotation : ' All uncreated light shines from above; all the created lights shine from below.'

On Mithra/Mitra:

Mitra means literally "a friend" it is the light as friendly to man (Orm. Ahr. §§ 59--61).....

§ 8. In the lndo-Iranian religion, the Asura of Heaven was often invoked in company with Mitra 3, the god of the heavenly light, and he let him share with himself the universal sovereignty. In the Veda, they are invoked as a pair (Mitra-Varona), which enjoys the same power and rights as Varuna alone, as there is nothing more in Mitra-Varuna than in Varuna alone, Mitra being the light of Heaven, that is, the light of Varona. But Ahura Mazda could no longer bear an equal, and Mithra became one of his creatures : ' This Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, I have created as worthy of sacrifice, as worthy of glorification, as I, Ahura Mazda, am myself.' But old formulae, no longer understood, in which Mithra and Ahura, or, rather, Mithra-Ahura, are invoked in an indivisible unity, dimly remind one that the Creator was formerly a brother to his creature.
So Mithra to the Persians was a personification of the beneficent light or faces of God. The light as friendly to man. Compare that to the beneficient lights in Enoch bestowing wisdom and immortality and the like. More interesting was the idea of this personification being at one point an equal to Ahura Mazda. This reminds me in some ways of the myth of Castor and Pollox in Greek myth. Two twins were half brothers, one being a demigod son of Zeus and the other of a Spartan king. When the mortal Castor eventually died, the demigod Pollox prayed to Zeus to bring him to Olympus. In exchange for granting this wish Pollox had to give up half his immortality, and so like Persephone the brothers spent half the year in heaven on mount Olympus and the other half in the Elysian fields of the underworld. I bring this up because others before have commented on its similarity to the story of Jesus descending into Hell as a ransom for the souls of the human race.

This Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, I have created as worthy of sacrifice, as worthy of glorification, as I, Ahura Mazda, am myself......
He preserved, however, a high situation, both in the concrete and in the abstract mythology. As the god of the heavenly light, the lord of vast luminous space, of the wide pastures above (cf. § 16), he became later the god of the sun (Deo invicto Soll Mithrae; in Persian Mihr is the Sun). As light and truth are one and the same thing, viewed with the eyes of the body and of the mind, he became the god of truth and faith. He punishes the Mithra-drug, 'him who lies to Mithra' ( or 'who lies to the contract,' since Mithra as a neuter noun means • friendship, agreement, contract') ; he is a judge in hell, in company with Rashnu, • the true one,' the god of truth, a mere offshoot of Mithra in big moral character (Farg. IV, S<f).

On battles between "weather gods" or STS vs STO:
§ 11. The war in nature was waged in the storm. The Vedas describe it as a battle fought by a god, Indra, armed with the lightning and thunder, against a serpent, Ahi, who has carried off the dawns or the rivers, described as goddesses or as milch cows, and who keeps them captive in the folds of the cloud. This myth appears in a still simpler form in the Avesta: it is a fight for the possession of the light of hvareno between Atar and Azi DahAka 1• Atar means ' fire ; ' he is both a thing and a person. He is sometimes described as the weapon of Ahura 2, but usually as his son 3, as the fire that springs from heaven can be conceived either as flung by it, or as born of it 4• Azi DahAka, 'the fiendish snake,' is a three-headed dragon, who strives to seize and put out the hvareno: he takes hold of it, but Atar frightens him away and recovers the light.
What is this hvareno? Modern translation is Kvaranah. From the Zend Avesta:
The hvareno, Persian khurrah and farr, is properly the light of sovereignty, the glory from above which makes the king an earthly god. He who possesses it reigns, he who loses it falls down ; when Yima lost it he perished and Azi Dahaka reigned ; as when light disappears, the fiend rules supreme. Vide infra, § 39; and cf. Yt. XIX, 32 seq.

The light for which the storm god struggled was often compared, as is well known, to a fair maid or bride carried off by the fiend. There was a class of myths, in which, instead of being carried off, she was supposed to have given herself up, of her own free will, to the demon, and to have betrayed the god, her lover. In another form of myth, still more distant from the naturalistic origin, the Pairikas were 'nymphs of a fair, but erring line,' who seduced the heroes to lead them to their ruin. Afterwards the Pari became at length the seduction of idolatry 8

These passages above gave me goosebumps. Good and evil battling over the "light of sovereignty" within each human soul. With the second bolded passage one cannot help thinking of the female energy consorting with the 4D STS, and that this feminine energy is construed as a light/fire in itself is all the more interesting. Makes me wonder if this was the reason behind all those redheads painted by the Preraphaelites.

Wikipedia also had some clarifying things to say about Kvaranah:
Kvaranah is an Avestan word for a Zoroastrian concept literally denoting "glory" or "splendour" but understood as a divine mystical force or power projected upon and aiding the appointed. The neuter noun thus also connotes "(divine) royal glory", reflecting the perceived divine empowerment of kings. The term also carries a secondary meaning of "(good) fortune"; those who possess it are able to complete their mission or function.

....Avestan khvarenah is probably[1] derived from Proto-Avestan *hvar "to shine", nominalized with the -nah suffix. Proto-Avestan *hvar is in turn related to Old Indic svar with the same meaning, and together descending from Proto-Indo-Iranian *súHr̥ "to shine", ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *sóhr "to shine". Other proposals suggest a linguistic relationship with Avestan xᵛar- "to eat".
So light in the Zoroastrian tradition in some context also denotes a capacity for a particular type of embodiment or manifestation in the world, perhaps in some sort of archetypal fashion. In Kvaranah, having the same root as shine, glory, and so on, is also quite interesting.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
After some comments about Zoroastrianism being potentially perverted early on it spurned in me the memory of Hermes Tismegistus in the Cassiopaean transcrips:

Q: (L) Who was Hermes Trismegistus?

A: Traitor to court of Pharoah Rana.

Q: (L) Who is Pharoah Rana?

A: Egyptian leader of spiritual covenant.

Q: (L) In what way was Hermes a traitor?

A: Broke covenant of spiritual unity of all peoples in area now known as Middle East.

Q: (L) Who did Hermes betray?

A: Himself; was power hungry.

Q: (L) What acts did he do?

A: Broke covenant; he inspired divisions within ranks of Egyptians, Essenes, Aryans, and Persians et cetera.

Q: (L) What was his purpose in doing this?

A: Divide and conquer as inspired by those referred to as Brotherhood in Bramley book you have read.

Q: (L) Is this the Brotherhood of the snake Hermes formed in rejection of unity?

A: Hermes did not form it; it was long since in existence.

Q: (L) Who was the originator of the Brotherhood of the Serpent as described in the Bramley book?

A: Lizard Beings.

Q: (L) I would like to know the approximate years of the life of Hermes Trismegistus.

A: 5211 approx. (Years ago or B.C.?)

Q: (L) Previously when I had asked a question about Hermes Trismegistus, you remarked that he was a 'traitor to the court of Pharoah Rana.' Who was this Pharoah Rana? Was he prior to the Pharoah Menes?

A: Much prior.

Q: Was the Pharoah Menes the same as King Minos of Crete?

A: No.

Q: What was the relationship between the Cretans and the Egyptians?

A: All were the same originally.

Q: So they were Egyptians who left Egypt and moved to Crete and set up their version of the Egyptian culture there? Is that it? Or did they develop independently?

A: Former is closest.

Q: Was Abraham, the founder of the monotheistic covenant, Hermes?

A: No.

Q: Was Akhenaten Moses?

A: Only through the eyes of the themes.

Q: What happened to Akhenaten? He also brought about the monotheistic worship and was apparently so hated that any mention of him, his very name, was stricken from buildings and statuary; his tomb was defaced and there was tremendous turmoil in the land. He essentially disappeared from the landscape, erased by the people who must have really hated him. What was the deal with Akhenaten?

A: Is not that enough? Must one endure anymore?

Q: Endure anymore what?

A: Vilification.

Q: Why was Akhenaten portrayed in images as a rather feminine individual? Did he have a congenital disease? Was he a hermaphrodite? Was he an alchemical adept who had gone through the transformation?

A: None of these.

Q: What was the reason for his strange physical appearance; his feminine hips and belly and strangely elongated face...

A: Depictions.

Q: So this was NOT how he really looked?

A: Not really.

Q: Did he choose to be depicted this way?

A: No.

Q: Was he depicted this way later as an insult?

A: Closer.

Q: Well, Abraham was the father of Ishmael who was the 'father of the Arabs' according to the Hebrew texts. Hermes was supposed to have been the father of Arabus who was also called the 'father of the Arabs.' This Arabus was the legendary father of Cassiopeia, which is almost a parallel development with just some name changes. It seems as though Arabus and Ishmael were comparatively the same in type and function and there are further comparisons to be made. But, the essential thing here is that Cassiopeia would then have been a granddaughter of Hermes and daughter of Ishmael, and we have talked before about the bloodline of the Ishmaelis as the true 'royal line.' Can you comment on this?

A: You are doing well in your analysis.

Q: But, just a few minutes ago you said that Hermes was NOT Abraham, and Abraham was clearly an adept...

A: What we are saying is... it is time for Arkadiusz to ask questions.

The timeline and location for the activities of Hermes seems to coincide with what could be construed as corruptions of Zarathustra’s original message. Hermes is given great reverence in alchemical literature and in secret societies, but was not an original founder. Perhaps he is elevated on a pedistal for his role in corrupting Zoroastrian religion and society in the ancient world?

The original 2016 C session that spurred this thread had some the following exchanges:
So, I guess my question is: Are we talking about the same religion or religious ideas or perceptions that were common to the cultures that produced the cave art in Western Europe?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And they came up with these ideas of infinite time and space that far back?

A: And so much more. They were "connected".

Q: (L) So in other words, what we are looking at here through a probably distorted survival via Zoroaster or Zarathushtra is that the Aryan religion was based first of all on a supreme principle of infinite time and infinite space from which was born essentially "good mind" and "evil mind" as Zoroaster put it?

A: Yes. STO and STS duality.

Q: (L) And this same religion, either in its older form or its later elaboration by Zarathushtra, was the origin of the ideas of free will?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Of savior gods?

A: Yes

Q: (L) The Six Bounteous Immortals, or I guess what we could say archetypes or sixth density?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Basically, it almost seemed as though it was a religion about information. Everything emerges from information, but there are some other very particular things about it that are very advanced. They were talking about things that physicists talk about nowadays.

A: Yes

Q: (L) It also seems to be the closest religious exposition of anything that I've come across to what we have received via these transmissions.

A: Yes

Q: (L) I'm just saying "close", because obviously there are some distortions and so forth. So did Zarathushtra modify this original religion because he had a vision, or...?

A: The ideas had already been corrupted, and Zarathushtra sought to recover the truth.

Q: (L) So it had already been corrupted, and he was trying to bring it back in line. He got close, but didn't quite make it. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And what had it been corrupted to?

A: The Indian Vedas will give clues.

Q: (L) Maybe he wasn't wrong when he said that the daevas were demons. Were the daevas like STS beings?

A: Close

Q: (L) Were they like 4th density STS?

A: Yes

From what I remember in reading what I had of Zoroastrianism, Zurvanism was seen as a heretical or blasphemous belief. It’s ironic that Zarathustra sought to repair Zurvanism of its corruptions but instead became the purported head of a faith that totally consumed and disregarded it. If we go with he notion that the spread of Zoroastrianism was either cause of various Neolithic “innovations,” what exactly did Zoroaster succeed in preserving of Zurvanism? Definitely not the parts that were instrumental in having a healthy diet and civic relations. Agriculture was a horrid influence as Lieree Keith had written.

I remember from the book Coming Home to the Pleistocene the notion that pastoral peoples regularly invaded and conquered agricultural peoples. Even in the early modern era you had European aristocrats still carrying on the vestiges of such a life in fox hunting, glorifying horseback rides and martial discipline (as high-ranking officers of course) and eating lots of meat in their diets compared to the agricultural peasants. This culminates in the British fights against the Zulu, where 6’1 Zulu warriors who ate lots of meat and dairy their whole lives face off against 5’8 British officers who eat meat almost every day of their lives growing up, commanding herds of common soldiers who were all 5’4 and just eating grains and suffering all sorts of evidenced malnourishment even in their physical appearance and bone structure. No wonder the Zulu fought as hard as they did, seeing what they did with their disposable workforce class.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I finished reading Zoroastrianism by John W. Waterhouse, and am about half way through Philosophy Before the Greeks by Marc Van De Mieroop.

The purpose of the book Zoroastrianism seemed to be to try and address the question of how much Judaism influenced Zoroastrianism. This is handled mostly in the last chapter of the book “Developments and Contacts,” where he laid out his own reasons for believing Judaism may have received influence during the “exilic period” where the Jews were purported to be in exile. He concludes there was a “mutual indebtedness” between the two religions, including beliefs about a Messiah, Monotheism, and so on. Given Mary Setagast’s views on the genuine antiquity of Zoroastrianism (even the reformed versions) it seems much more plausible that Zoroastrian heavily influenced Judaism but not vice versa.

What stands out is that Cyrus the Great is one of the few “pagan” individuals to be deemed honored and blessed in the Old Testament for allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple. It definitely seems like some kind of homage was paid by this saying, “yeah you’re pretty alright but you were only doing it out of respect for our God and not yours.”

Another tie-in with Judaism/Christianity is of course also the story of the Magi (which were a priestly caste associated with Zurvanism/Zoroastrianism, which tended to be fatalistic and heavily involved in astrology and divination). In the book of Matthew, three magi came from the east and bore gifts to the messiah, after reading the stars and concluding a great king was to be born. What stuck out for me was that the book of Matthew was for a Jewish audience, and Levitical law explicitly condemned astrology.

What type of rhetorical or narrative work was the tie-in with the Magi doing in this situation?

One possible reason for the exclusion of astrology from the Torah, I think, could be from “lessons learned” from Babylon, where astrology and diviniation was a major obsession of the priestly class, but also scribes in general as well as lay people (by which I mean those not formally employed or involved in priestly activities or administration). Someone could pay an individual to read the omens of an animal you were slaughtering. It was like going to the butcher and the newspaper stand at the same time. A part of me wonders if the move away from astrology in the compilation of the Torah was an attempt to reel back the ability of the laypeople to interact with the divine, and instead relegate that prerogative of divine communication to the rabbis, through kabbalah and other script-based magical practices. Just a hypothesis.

What’s also of note was Magi belief that the body becomes physically resurrected after their bodies were given up to be eaten by birds (practicing sky burials instead of burial in the earth or by fire). I thought this was an interesting tie-in with the Matthew/Peter theology, which also necessitated a belief in a physical resurrection.

On the whole this book was a great crash-course in Zoroastrian beliefs. It ended up making me a lot more curious about Zoroastrianism, Zurvanism, and the Magi.

I looked up the Magi on Wikipedia (just as a starting point) and it seemed that some did not have high opinions of them.

The oldest surviving Greek reference to the magi – from Greek μάγος (mágos, plural: magoi) – might be from 6th century BCE Heraclitus (apud Clemens Protrepticus 2.22.2[9]), who curses the magi for their "impious" rites and rituals.[10] A description of the rituals that Heraclitus refers to has not survived, and there is nothing to suggest that Heraclitus was referring to foreigners.

Better preserved are the descriptions of the mid-5th century BCE Herodotus, who in his portrayal of the Iranian expatriates living in Asia Minor uses the term "magi" in two different senses. In the first sense (Histories 1.101[11]), Herodotus speaks of the magi as one of the tribes/peoples (ethnous) of the Medes. In another sense (1.132[12]), Herodotus uses the term "magi" to generically refer to a "sacerdotal caste", but "whose ethnic origin is never again so much as mentioned."[8] According to Robert Charles Zaehner, in other accounts, "we hear of Magi not only in Persia, Parthia, Bactria, Chorasmia, Aria, Media, and among the Sakas, but also in non-Iranian lands like Samaria, Ethiopia, and Egypt. Their influence was also widespread throughout Asia Minor. It is, therefore, quite likely that the sacerdotal caste of the Magi was distinct from the Median tribe of the same name."[8]

As early as the 5th century BCE, Greek magos had spawned mageia and magike to describe the activity of a magus, that is, it was his or her art and practice.[13] But almost from the outset the noun for the action and the noun for the actor parted company. Thereafter, mageia was used not for what actual magi did, but for something related to the word 'magic' in the modern sense, i.e. using supernatural means to achieve an effect in the natural world, or the appearance of achieving these effects through trickery or sleight of hand.[13] The early Greek texts typically have the pejorative meaning, which in turn influenced the meaning of magos to denote a conjurer and a charlatan.[14] Already in the mid-5th century BCE, Herodotus identifies the magi as interpreters of omens and dreams (Histories 7.19, 7.37, 1.107, 1.108, 1.120, 1.128[15]).[16]

Another interesting story involving the Magi surrounds the ascension of Darius I to the Persian throne. The short version is the Persian King Cambyses II died on campaign in Egypt and his brother Bardiya ascended the throne. Darius, Cambyses II’s sword bearer, returns from campaign and with a cadre of others accuses Bardiya of in fact being a Magi named Gautama who is impersonating Bardiya (who, if we are to believe Darius, was secretly slain by Cambyses II (:rolleyes:) after dreaming of his brother supplanting him). Darius and others then slay the king in a coup d’etat and he becomes king.

Most scholars today can see this as clearly Machiavellian maneuvering by Darius, but it is interesting to see how his wanton smear of the priestly class in charge of providing omens and portents for him just seemed to be taken in stride.

Reading history can be quite a rabbit hole.
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