What is the nature of the Power behind certain Vedic mantras?

Chaitanya Krishna das

The Force is Strong With This One
I have several questions that I'm extremely curious as to all of your ideas about. I've been studying and practicing off and on for the last 20 years Krishna Consciousness, as popularized by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and as taught by the guru I recently took initiation from, Bhaktiratna Sadhu Swami Gaurangapada. I've been searching these forums for hours and have come up with nothing similar to the questions I have.

Basically, the idea behind the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition that I follow that was originally taught by Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in the 1500's is that certain mantras, mainly the Hare Krishna mantra, is actually Krishna Himself manifested as sound vibration. The Vedas teach that everything in the material universes came into being as a result of sound vibrations in the forms of mantras, and that in the present age of Kali Yuga, the only way to escape the cycle of reincarnation is to immerse oneself in the sound vibration of Krishna's Names, which are non-different from Krishna Himself.

Swami Prabhupada also introduced in the West the process of Deity worship, where Krishna is invoked into a marble or metal statue of Himself, and once invoked, these Deities are fully Krishna Himself, just like the mantra is.

Now, I don't know if anyone here has ever involved themselves with group chanting (kirtan) or private chanting (japa) of the Hare Krishna mantra, and/or have ever spent time around the Deities in one of the Temples, but there is most certainly a very strong presence and power that manifests within both the Deities and the mantra. At times, the Deities, which are carved from marble usually, can be seen to actually move, both their bodies, and their eyes will sometimes look around the room. Devotees are taught that being able to see the Deities dance and move is a symptom of high spiritual attainment.

My main question is, is this force/energy/power that manifests in the Deities, and which basically possesses the entire roomful of chanting devotees, is it truly God, Krishna, Himself? Or is it a manifestation of the Lizzies, taking over these statues and minds of devotees who are inviting them to control them?
 
Chaitanya Krishna das said:
My main question is, is this force/energy/power that manifests in the Deities, and which basically possesses the entire roomful of chanting devotees, is it truly God, Krishna, Himself? Or is it a manifestation of the Lizzies, taking over these statues and minds of devotees who are inviting them to control them?

I don't know if it is the Lizzies or not, but I think inviting some 'higher power' to take over and possess in search of a way to escape the cycle of reincarnation is inviting disaster. I think it is giving up ones free will and energy and would seem to only feed those entities invited in to possess.

edit added: You might want to look into and read 'Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans' and other such sources and literature to get an idea about what might be out there waiting to possess someone. I think there is info about the book, etc on the forum.
 
Chaitanya Krishna das said:
My main question is, 1) is this force/energy/power that manifests in the Deities, and which basically possesses the entire roomful of chanting devotees, is it truly God, Krishna, Himself? 2) Or is it a manifestation of the Lizzies, taking over these statues and minds of devotees who are inviting them to control them?

1) most probably not.
2) possible.

Question not asked: "what can it be?"
Answer: group self hypnosis, vagal nerve stimulation, and limbic resonance.
 
Also, you might find this worth reading:

'Michael Topper on Stalking'
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/stalking.htm
 
Thanks for the replies. I have just been really curious about this because several weeks ago I spent a whole week at a Temple in West Virginia, and not only witnessed, but was completely swept up in the total frenzied possession/ecstasy of over a hundred people at once. And there was a very tangible presence there, far beyond a group hysteria, which I have experienced before at concerts. Pondering this experience after I returned home, and then reading your "High Strangeness" book, Laura, made me seriously question how "divine" this presence was.
 
It sounds quite similar to what many experience in charismatic Christian faiths (eg. Pentacostal), where the congregation begins speaking in tongues.

There's certainly a possibility of self and group hypnosis occurring, since members are told ahead of time that, if they are lucky and sufficiently advanced, they might experience such things as divine possession and seeing statues move. If one has a grand desire to attain spiritual growth and has a belief system as to how that growth would manifest, they're perfectly set up for a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If I wanted to feed off of humanity, I would create a bunch of religions that cater to the unique cultural characteristics of the many cultures on the planet. And I would manipulate circumstances to create validations of my divinity to several of the religions' members.

The questions I always have to ask, when trying to discern the righteousness of a path are, what good has this religion done for humanity?, what harm has it done?, and is it possible that, no matter how well intentioned the followers and even some of the leaders might seem, they are being mislead. If there is harm, if the good is limited to its followers or if there's a chance the faith is supported by illusions and/or deception, then I would steer clear. Our mind is well wired to make connections that don't belong together to bolster our belief structures and cater to our wishful thinking.

My $0.02, FWIW.

Gonzo
 
Well, if you read about the history of ISKCON, it's certainly not pretty. Prabhupada's own senior disciples poisoned him to death, made themselves gurus, became a bunch of drug smuggling, gun trafficking, pedophiles, and created scandal after scandal for the past 40 years, which is precisely why I did not take initiation from a guru in that corrupt organization. My attraction to the intensity of the mantra meditation is probably, if I really sit and analyse it, simply due to my irresistible attraction to altered states of consciousness. When I was younger, I was a heavy psychedelic drug user, and have never lost my perverse attraction to extreme altered states. It's just that after reading Laura's writings, and some of the posts on this forum, I'm seriously wondering just how benevolent the entities that are fueling these experiences are, or if they have sinister intentions hidden behind a mask of love.
 
Chaitanya Krishna das said:
or if they have sinister intentions hidden behind a mask of love.

You may have noticed that most macro scale evil (and a lot of micro scale) on this planet is carried out behind a mask of good intentions, including love. As above, so below.
 
Chaitanya Krishna das said:
My attraction to the intensity of the mantra meditation is probably, if I really sit and analyse it, simply due to my irresistible attraction to altered states of consciousness. When I was younger, I was a heavy psychedelic drug user, and have never lost my perverse attraction to extreme altered states.

Yes, these states feel good. There is a veritable industry out there to generate these feel good states in a variety of ways. Chanting works by entraining brain waves through auditory method. When a bunch of people chant together, in addition to the higher amplitude of the base frequency, the slightly off key effect due to the input from many people can generate beats and this probably has interesting effects on the brain waves.

Altered states help escape from the reality and pain of daily life. When continued at the expense of increasing knowledge, will and skill to see and act in life as it is, as a matured adult is supposed to do, it appears like a regressive step in the spiritual development for a human being. But it is a choice that each one of us makes - whether consciously or unconsciously.
 
Having spent quarter century in India, I have seen lot of drama of bhajans, many trance dances, some bhajans combined with exorcism from different denominations. Some of their work, often interrupted by some sort of scandal, money, sex, influence or crime.

As a child I used to fascinated by one my Sanskrit pundit teacher and used to sing at home sanskrit slokas to the point of ridicule from everybody. It used to be so sweet, so I continue to sing. This got interrupted shortly later when that pundit died from misery of her daughter’s accidental death that resulted his entire family living on streets. He couldn't control his emotions. What a shock we all went through as 10 year old’s.

You can find lot of examples in this thread. New age cointelpro

One of the most popular one in india now a days based on mantras, bahajans is oneness movement which was exposed as drug induced trance.

There is another group very famous in our area called ayyappa, which is purely based on bhajan, intense months long physical discipline which culminates in visit to a temple in kerala. Since we see and hear numbing bahajans in tents that crop up at street corner (during the season) and some of my relatives also take part in them, I visit them out of curiosity. During the bhajan session, these dancing disciples see a lamp in sky on a specific day/specific direction, but none who are watching outside the circle can see except to laugh.

Bottom line is none seems to have benefitted long term from these type of things. At least the people I know.
 
Chaitanya Krishna das said:
I'm seriously wondering just how benevolent the entities that are fueling these experiences are, or if they have sinister intentions hidden behind a mask of love.

If it looks like a duck, if it sounds like a duck and if it feels like a duck, then it is very likely ......
 
Curiously, I just tonight was reading the Caitanya Caritamrita, and came across a verse in the Adi Lila that states that Sri Krishna is a 4th Dimensional Being. Now, are 4th Dimensional Beings exclusively the Entropic entities like the Lizzies, or are there benevolent 4th Dimensional entities as well? Because if the 4th Dimension is where only the Forces of Entropy dwell, that would confirm my suspicions about Krishna and His entourage being malevolent.
 
I also would like to say that I really appreciate all of you being so respectful of what I'm sure you see as my folly in exploring a religious path so deeply. One thing you should know about me is, I'm a very non-dogmatic person, and I'm always completely willing to discard old ideas when confronted with new information to the contrary. I am, and always have been, driven by a sincere quest for Truth, and I realize on this quest that to stagnate in old ideas to to spiritually atrophy. Reading Laura's books has been a real eye-opener for me, for like I said before, they resonate deeply with me. I'm going to start The Wave series today, for I'm eager to dive deeper. But I thought I should thank all of you for tolerating my questions and exploration. It really is much appreciated!
 
seek10 said:
Having spent quarter century in India, I have seen lot of drama of bhajans, many trance dances, some bhajans combined with exorcism from different denominations. Some of their work, often interrupted by some sort of scandal, money, sex, influence or crime....

One of the most popular one in india now a days based on mantras, bahajans is oneness movement which was exposed as drug induced trance.

There is another group very famous in our area called ayyappa, which is purely based on bhajan, intense months long physical discipline which culminates in visit to a temple in kerala. Since we see and hear numbing bahajans in tents that crop up at street corner (during the season) and some of my relatives also take part in them, I visit them out of curiosity. During the bhajan session, these dancing disciples see a lamp in sky on a specific day/specific direction, but none who are watching outside the circle can see except to laugh.

Bottom line is none seems to have benefitted long term from these type of things. At least the people I know.

I've been reading the thread you linked to about this "Oneness movement". It sounds like they're using the same techniques as the Gaudiya Vaishnavas to impart "enlightenment", with the distinct difference that, with the guru I took initiation from, the goal is not exclusively oneness, for this oneness is viewed as a misconception common to what Vaishnavas call "Mayavadi" philosophy. Lord Caitanya, the founder of the Krishna Consciousness movement in the 1500's in India, taught that the Ultimate Truth is Achintya Bhedabheda-Tattva, inconceivable Oneness and Difference, meaning basically that we while we all as jivas are eternally One with Krishna, we never at any time lose our individuality in this Oneness, for the goal is to gain an eternal place in the pastimes of Sri Krishna and His entourage.

I have realized in the past that this concept of inconceivable Oneness and Difference can be not only applied to our relationship with God, but also to our relationship with each other. Now, I'm open to the fact that I may be drastically wrong here, because this realization came as a result of psychedelic drug trips I've had many years ago in conjunction with the influence of personal interaction with devotees of Krishna during ecstatic kirtans and classes. The more I'm reading on these forums about the new age cointelpro, the more I think that perhaps my psychedelic drug-addled mind may have been deeply deceived by some sort of malevolent entities working through the medium of the gurus and devotees that I've had contact with. It just is starting to seem to me like it all reeks of a deep conspiracy to gain the allegiance and souls of people for a purpose I can't quite discern yet.

I'm going to start the Wave series today, and continue my studies here, for I'm eager to get to the bottom of all of this.
 
Chaitanya Krishna das said:
I'm open to the fact that I may be drastically wrong here, because this realization came as a result of psychedelic drug trips I've had many years ago in conjunction with the influence of personal interaction with devotees of Krishna during ecstatic kirtans and classes. The more I'm reading on these forums about the new age cointelpro, the more I think that perhaps my psychedelic drug-addled mind may have been deeply deceived by some sort of malevolent entities working through the medium of the gurus and devotees that I've had contact with.

I think it’s pretty straight forward and a standard trap that so many of us have fallen into along the way here, myself included. We are lured by our brain chemistry and a weak will, along paths that promise experiences that will light up our brains like Christmas trees, make us feel good. We imagine that said experiences confer some kind of speshul powers, mean that we are truly ‘on our way’ - if only we can attain the next higher and more super-speshul state that will magically show us all we need ever know in one endlessly ecstatic mega download. Chasing the “Whoa, I know kung-fu” neo moment.

It‘s a pretty neat loop when you think about it, a quite efficient fence that is not a fence. Just give folk enough of a good time, convince them that they are achieving something or have acquired super powers in the process and they’ll happily stay right where they are pushing the feel good do-it-again button. Or as Gurdjieff put it:

[quote author=gurdjieff]

There was an evil magician. He lived deep in the mountains and the forests, and he had thousands of sheep. But the problem was that the sheep were afraid of the magician because every day the sheep were seeing that one of them was being killed for his breakfast, another was being killed for his lunch. So they ran away from the magician's ranch and it was a difficult job to find them in the vast forest. Being a magician, he used magic.

He hypnotized all the sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned, that, on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it.

He then told different sheep...to some, "You are a man, you need not be afraid. It is only the sheep who are going to be killed and eaten, not you. You are a man just like I am." Some other sheep were told, "You are a lion -- only sheep are afraid. They escape, they are cowards. You are a lion; you would prefer to die than to run away. You don't belong to these sheep. So when they are killed it is not your problem. They are meant to be killed, but you are the most loved of my friends in this forest." In this way, he told every sheep different stories, and from the second day, the sheep stopped running away from the house.

They still saw other sheep being killed, butchered, but it was not their concern. Somebody was a lion, somebody was a tiger, somebody was a man, somebody was a magician and so forth. Nobody was a sheep except the one who was being killed. This way, without keeping servants, he managed thousands of sheep. They would go into the forest for their food, for their water, and they would come back home, believing always one thing: "It is some sheep who is going to be killed, not you. You don't belong to the sheep. You are a lion -- respected, honored, a friend of the great magician." The magician's problems were solved and the sheep never ran away again.'

[/quote]

Chasing experiences and ‘higher states’ brings this session snippet to mind to. Slightly different context but seems to fit with the 'chasing the higher’ / matrix theme:

11 November 1995

Q: (L) And where are you from?

A: The translation point of focus is Cassiopaea.

Q: (L) Is there a reason you use the term "translation?" Is it because the information is translated from one density to another?

A: Close.

Q: (L) Is that the point where the energy "shifts" densities?

A: Close.

Q: (L) I noticed that in the beginning of these transmission that the language was very formalized, and that as time has gone by, the language used has become more colloquial. Why is this?

A: Formalized? Colloquial? Define your judgements, please!

Q: (L) Well, what I meant was, that in the beginning it seemed that certain colloquial expressions that we are accustomed to were unclear to you. And now, not only is there great familiarity with our expressions, but you seem to often come up with rather clever and original witty sayings.

A: Familiarity breeds contentment!

Q: (L) Okay. I want to get on with the questions for tonight...

A: Do you not wish to reflect upon our witticism?

Q: (L) [Laughter] Yes! I thought that was a very clever witticism!

A: It seemed as if you were not impressed?!? Give us a break, Laura?!? We're only sixth density!

Q: (L) As we say, "I love a sixth density light being with a sense of humor!" Now, the main thing I wanted to ask about is the references I come across in tons of reading, that the number 33 is somehow significant. Could you tell us the significance, in esoteric terms, or in terms of secret societies, of the number 33. There is the cipher of Roger Bacon, based on the number 33, the 33rd degree masons...

A: As usual, we do not just give you the answers, we help you to teach yourself!! Now, take 11 and contemplate...

Q: (L) Well, three times eleven is thirty-three.

A: Yes, but what about 11?

Q: (L) Well, eleven is supposed to be one of the prime, or divine power numbers. In Kaballah, 11 is the power number...

A: Yes...

Q: (L) Eleven is 10 plus 1; it is divisible only by itself and by 1. I can't think of anything else. In numerology, I am a an 11 in numerology... I am also a 22. What else is there to the number 11?

A: Astrology.

Q: (L) Well, in astrology, the eleventh sign is Aquarius, my name is an eleven, my birthday is a 22 which is twice eleven, and I am an Aquarian. The eleventh house is friends, hopes, dreams and wishes, and also adopted children. Aquarius the Waterbearer, the dispenser of knowledge. Does 11 have something to do with dispensing of knowledge?

A: Now, 3rd house.

Q: (L) Gemini. Okay. Gemini and Aquarius. Third house is how the mind works, communication, relations with neighbors and siblings, education, local travel, how one speaks. Gemini is known as the "consummate man." Somewhat shallow and interested in the things of material life. It is also the divine number of creation. So, what's the connection here?

A: Matrix.

Q: (L) Is there something about this in the Matrix material?

A: No.

Q: (L) This IS a matrix. The third house and the eleventh house create a matrix?

A: Foundation.


Q: (L) In terms of cosmic things, Gemini is in June, Aquarius is in February... (S) Isn't the third house also about teaching? And, we are friends here and we are being taught...

A: This is not about you.

Q: (L) Okay. This is not about us. I am just trying to relate it. Gemini is in June, Aquarius is in February.Gemini is the physical man, and Aquarius is the spiritual man?

A: Yin Yang.

Q: (L) So Gemini is the physical man and Aquarius is the spiritual man... yin yang... is that the...

A: Yes...

Q: (L) So 33 could represent the transformation of the physical man to the divine man through the action of secret or hidden teachings... and those who have gone through this process represent themselves with the number 33, which means that they started out oriented to the flesh and then became...

A: Medusa 11.

Q: (L) Medusa 11? What does Medusa have to do with it? (S) What about spinning 33 times? (L) Please tell me how Medusa relates here?

A: Heads.

Q: (L) Heads. Medusa. 11. Were there eleven snakes on the head of Medusa or eleven heads? This is really obscure... you need to help me out here.

A: We are.

Q: (L) Do I need to read the Medusa legend to understand?

A: No.

Q: (L) Medusa. Heads. 11. Is there something about the mythical Medusa that we need to see here?

A: 11 squared divided by phi.

Q: (L) By pi. 11 squared divided by pi. What does this result bring us to?

A: 33.infinity.

Q: (L) Well, we don't get 33 out of this... we get 3.3166 etc if we divide the square root of 11 by pi. Divided by phi... what in the heck is phi? Okay, if we divide pi into 11, we get 3.5infinity, but not 33.

A: 1 times 1

Q: (L) Oh. You weren't saying 11 times 11, you were saying 1 times 1.

A: No.

Q: (L) 1 times 1 is what? 1.

A: 5 minus 3.

Q: (L) Okay, that's 2.

A: 2 minus 1.

Q: (L) Okay, that's 1. I don't get it. A math genius I am NOT. What is the concept here?

A: Look: 353535.

Q: (L) What is the 35 sequence?

A: 5 minus 3.

Q: (L) Okay, we have strange math. But, you can do anything with numbers because they correspond to the universe at deep levels...

A: Is code.

Q: (L) What does this code relate to? Is it letters or some written work?

A: Infinite power.

Q: (L) How is infinite power acquired by knowing this code? If you don't know the correspondences, how can you use a numerical code?

A: Lord of Serpent promises its followers infinite power which they must seek infinite knowledge to gain, for which they pledge allegiance infinitely for which they possess for all eternity, so long as they find infinite wisdom, for which they search for all infinity.

Q: (L) Well, that is a round robin... a circle you can't get out of!

A: And therein you have the deception! Remember, those who seek to serve self with supreme power, are doomed only to serve others who seek to serve self, and can only see that which they want to see.

Q: (L) The thought that occurs to me, as we are talking here, is that the STS pathway consists of an individual who wants to serve themselves - they are selfish and egocentric -they want to impel others to serve them; they want to enslave others; and they find ways to manipulate others to serve them. But, they end up being impelled by some higher being than they are. Because they have been tricked into believing that by so doing, they are actually drawing power to themselves through the teachings, including the popular religions which promote being "saved" by simply believing and giving up your power. And, then, you have a whole pyramid of people TAKING by trickery and deception, from others. The taker gets taken from in the end. A pyramid where all those on the bottom, the majority, have no one to take from, so they get absorbed into the next level higher, until you get to the apex and everything disappears. In the STO mode, you have those who only give. And, if they are involved with other STO persons, everyone has and no one is at the bottom or at the top, in a void. In the end, it seems like everyone ends up serving someone else anyway, and the principle is the INTENT. But in STO, it is more like a circle, a balance, no one is left without.

A: Balance, yin-yang.

Q: (L) Obviously the 33 represents the Serpent, the Medusa, and so forth...

A: You mentioned pyramid, interesting... And what is the geometric one-dimensional figure that corresponds?

Q: (L) Well, the triangle. And, if you have a triangle point up you have 3, joined to a triangle pointing down, you have 3, you have a 33. Is that something like what we are getting at here?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Is there a connection between the number 33 and the Great Pyramid in Egypt?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) And what is that connection? Is it that the builders of the pyramid participated in this secret society activity?

A: Yes. And what symbol did you see in "Matrix," for Serpents and Grays?

Q: (L) You are talking about the triangle with the Serpent's head in it?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Are we talking in terms of this 33 relating to a group of "aliens," or a group of humans with advanced knowledge and abilities?

A: Either/or.

Q: (L) Is this what has been referred to in the Bramley book as the Brotherhood of the Serpent or Snake?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Is this also what you have referred to as the Quorum?

A: Close.

Q: (L) So, we have a bunch of people who are playing with mathematics, and playing with higher knowledge, basically as a keep busy activity to distract them at the human level from the fact that they are being manipulated at a higher level. Is this what is going on? Or, do they consciously know what they are doing? Is it a distraction or a conscious choice?

A: Both.

Q: (L) If I were to name some names, could you identify if named individuals were involved in this secret group?

A: It would not be in your best interests.

Q: (L) Is there anything more on this 33 number that I should look at now?

A: No. You need to contemplate.

As the C’s often say, ‘Knowledge protects’, so I guess it’s up to us to question what - if any - knowledge we are acquiring.
 
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