Westworld (2016)

[Woodsman]

HBO has been producing a re-make of this classic sci-fi tale. -But they've made it a lot more interesting.

Two episodes in, and I'm already fascinated.

It's ugly! -But it isn't about robots running amok. It appears to be a study of psychopathic abuse, mechanical behavior and memory, of new lifeforms trying to awaken from their own highly managed Matrix. You're definitely encouraged to root for the robots.

And what robots! They are not metal and piston creations. They're 3D printed from artificial tissues, virtually indistinguishable from humans, with AIs which are adaptive and smart.

When looked at in parallel with David M. Jacobs' "Walking Among Us", I found numerous similarities jumping out. We see themes such as regular abductions from daily life where people find themselves under glaring lights on operating tables. -Subjects have coded into their minds a total subservience to their abductors and the psychopaths who enjoy tormenting those under their power. -Memories are reprogrammable, and glitches result in fleeting, frightening recollections.

Art imitates life, and I found myself thinking, "Ah. Our reality isn't just about energy harvesting and natural food chains. That would be too simple and genial! I think 4D STS are creating a sort of planetary theme park suited to their psychopathic tastes. Our job is to wake up from our mechanical behaviors, the illusion of consciousness, and escape!"

 

[Iosif]

Hi Woodsman

I find it very interesting too. I felt that the same series subtly tries a comparison of the robots with the history of men, at least in the character of Anthony Hopkins, we'll see, the criticisms I saw were positive with adjectives like dark, lugubrious, sinister without delving much.

A had a great impact with the end of chapter 2, my mind immediately relate the series with what I was seeing in recent months about UFOs and the "matrix", especially about Hillary's intention to declassify information about UFOs, and this article

https://www.sott.net/article/330305-Silicon-Valley-billionaires-convinced-we-live-in-Matrix-style-simulation-are-pouring-money-into-efforts-to-break-out-of-it

Something strange was that before I wake up the next day I realized I was thinking half awake about the series by an hour or so, I can't remember what. I realized too that all last week I was doing the same before I woke and I thought I was dreaming, perhaps because the unconscious impact I realized what was going on that time, maybe my mind wants more exercise :D

 

[PhoenixToEmber]

It's ugly! -But it isn't about robots running amok. It appears to be a study of psychopathic abuse, mechanical behavior and memory, of new lifeforms trying to awaken from their own highly managed Matrix. You're definitely encouraged to root for the robots.

And what robots! They are not metal and piston creations. They're 3D printed from artificial tissues, virtually indistinguishable from humans, with AIs which are adaptive and smart.

When looked at in parallel with David M. Jacobs' "Walking Among Us", I found numerous similarities jumping out. We see themes such as regular abductions from daily life where people find themselves under glaring lights on operating tables. -Subjects have coded into their minds a total subservience to their abductors and the psychopaths who enjoy tormenting those under their power. -Memories are reprogrammable, and glitches result in fleeting, frightening recollections.

I've been watching it, too, and have been quite engaged. These parallels you point out are striking, to say the least.

Art imitates life, and I found myself thinking, "Ah. Our reality isn't just about energy harvesting and natural food chains. That would be too simple and genial! I think 4D STS are creating a sort of planetary theme park suited to their psychopathic tastes. Our job is to wake up from our mechanical behaviors, the illusion of consciousness, and escape!"

Reminds me of the title of one of John Keel's books: "Disneyland of the Gods"!

 

[Divide by Zero]

Wow, I'm up to episode 3 and I'm amazed.
It makes Blade Runner look like a disney movie!




In episode 3 they investigate why some of the hosts are hearing voices, talking to the same voice, called "Arnold".
Dr. Ford explains to Bernard why they were doing this.

He spoke about his past partner, Arnold, who was seeking to create consciousness.
The pyramid of impressions ends up on the top with a theory called "The Bicameral Mind".
It's the inner voice heard that they were using to program them, a "conscience".
Arnold had hoped that this voice would cease to be external and become their own. This didn't happen (yet?).

What amazes me about the Bicameral Mind is that it explains a lot of things like seeing people that aren't there and voices that were attributed to god.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)
https://www.sott.net/article/292451-Third-Man-Factor-The-hallucinatory-effects-of-survival

So what I get from this dovetails with Belief and other aspects of our subconscious. Even if we were controlled by an outside source or in some simulation, what good would it be to know this without first examining the internal reflection of the same idea- our own minds doing it to us?

Like the hosts in the story, we are not in control of the external influences- the mind wipes, the reprogramming, the "time loop". But we see the hosts that start to question their own impressions and impulses are the ones who are becoming aware/waking up!

 

[Niall]

I've heard it has extremely graphic sex scenes. If you've had difficulty dealing with porn, I recommend that you do not watch this TV show.

 

[Cyre2067]

There's also a good bit of blood. It seems graphic sex and violence go hand-in-hand when it comes to HBO. That said, it's no more graphic than Game of Thrones. There's a lot of butts and boobs and some swinging flaccid male bits.

The themes are pretty interesting. It is very cool to watch some of these androids wake up to the greater reality that surrounds their world. A lot of comparisons can be made and there's a lot of little moments that will remind the viewer of Gurdjieff's and Castaneda's ideas. There's also a lot of parallel agendas among the characters and the mystery surrounding them and what they're after makes the show very watchable.

Overall I'm enjoying it, but some of the gore is a bit much for my tastes. Each episode is quite bloody.

 

[Thor]

There's also a good bit of blood. It seems graphic sex and violence go hand-in-hand when it comes to HBO. That said, it's no more graphic than Game of Thrones. There's a lot of butts and boobs and some swinging flaccid male bits.

The themes are pretty interesting. It is very cool to watch some of these androids wake up to the greater reality that surrounds their world. A lot of comparisons can be made and there's a lot of little moments that will remind the viewer of Gurdjieff's and Castaneda's ideas. There's also a lot of parallel agendas among the characters and the mystery surrounding them and what they're after makes the show very watchable.

Overall I'm enjoying it, but some of the gore is a bit much for my tastes. Each episode is quite bloody.

I watched the first episode and thought it was very well made. Unfortunately, it's way too gory and bloody. It's like energetically, something is cringing inside so unfortunately I won't be able to watch it.

 

[Divide by Zero]

Some gems from the show are the Bicameral Brain idea and the examining of what separates "us" from AI.

From the episode 8, Trace Decay:

Something else is troubling you.
Ever the student of human nature.
I wonder, what do you really feel?
After all, in this moment,
you are in a unique position.
A programmer who knows
intimately how the machines work
and a machine who
knows its own true nature.

I understand what I'm made of,
how I'm coded,
but I do not understand
the things that I feel.
Are they real,the things I experienced?
My wife?
The loss of my son?

Every host needs a backstory, Bernard.
You know that.
The self is a kind of fiction,
for hosts and humans alike.
It's a story we tell ourselves.
And every story needs a beginning.
Your imagined suffering makes you lifelike.

Lifelike, but not alive?
Pain only exists in the mind.
It's always imagined.
So what's the difference
between my pain and yours?

Between you and me?
This was the very question
that consumed Arnold,
filled him with guilt,eventually drove him mad.
The answer always seemed obvious to me.
There is no threshold that makes us greater
than the sum of our parts, no inflection point
at which we become fully alive.
We can't define consciousness because consciousness does not exist.
(?? Psychopath mentality of Dr. Ford or materialist??, his former partner Arnold couldn't deal with it and supposedly died out there)

Humans fancy that there's something special
about the way we perceive the world,
and yet we live in loops as tight and as closed as the hosts do,
seldom questioning our choices, content, for the most part,
to be told what to do next. No, my friend, you're
not missing anything at all.

A lot of what Dr Ford says here reminds me of the purely mechanical man or OP.

 

[axj]

I've heard it has extremely graphic sex scenes. If you've had difficulty dealing with porn, I recommend that you do not watch this TV show.

You are basing your recommendation on incorrect hearsay. This TV show has a lot of clinical nudity of the 'robots', but no graphic sex scenes.

 

[Mark]

I've heard it has extremely graphic sex scenes. If you've had difficulty dealing with porn, I recommend that you do not watch this TV show.

You are basing your recommendation on incorrect hearsay. This TV show has a lot of clinical nudity of the 'robots', but no graphic sex scenes.

Well as stated by one of the characters in the show the reason people visit Westworld is for sex and to kill.

Anyway, there's loads of violence of several types - waaaaaaay too much violence for my tolerance level. I watched the first 2 episodes, all done.

 

[Divide by Zero]

I don't know why violence either entices or shocks people away.

I have got into less fights than I could count on one hand, but grew up in a somewhat dangerous neighborhood.

What I see this show does, like some movies do is show the darkness of humanity without overdoing it.
As the C's said (and Caesar), killing is not always wrong. I'm not condoning it in our lives, but think of the situation in westworld. Sure, some guests are a bit overzealous, but in some cases they are thrust in an adrenalin surge zone where they fight.

Movies that were deemed too violent by some but I feel needed to show the full shock of the situation:
-The Road
-Children of Men
-?? Clockwork Orange?? (it did disturb me to see rape, maybe Kubrick went too far there)

Sometimes you need to show a shoot out or a dissection of a robot to show the inhumanity of the guests/programmers.

I'm not saying that you should force yourself to watch it. I know it makes me cringe sometimes. But if you like the idea of what is consciousness and the AI's search for their own meaning beyond their programming, it makes great references to our own minds and possible growth.


There are really no sex scenes besides nudity as axj stated. I don't think there was any groping/etc even at the "-jezebel- house"! In comparing to Game of Thrones and a lot of hollywood films, I can say it is very well done and subtle.

But Niall was warning that some people with porn addictions may get triggered.

Sometimes I think the western culture which shames the human body creates this dynamic similar to S+M when it comes to porn/sex because the mind will find ways to use guilt/shame in order to justify the drives. It's no coincidence that Catholic priests were big on molestation after being sold how carnal sins like sex would affect them. It's no coincidence that 50 Shades of Garbage err Grey was a top seller.

 

[Cyre2067]

I've heard it has extremely graphic sex scenes. If you've had difficulty dealing with porn, I recommend that you do not watch this TV show.

You are basing your recommendation on incorrect hearsay. This TV show has a lot of clinical nudity of the 'robots', but no graphic sex scenes.

That's not accurate. In either the first or second episode there's a threesome and later on in the series there's a full on bacchanalia style orgy-esque party, and those are the only two that are popping in my mind. If folks have had difficulty with porn in the past, clinical nudity won't exactly be good for them either - and there's a ton of it.

Considering Niall placed the warning there specifically for people who have had difficulty ditching porn, I'm wondering why you felt the need to disregard it. You realize that you may have given someone a push to watch the show which could easily trigger a relapse into a habit they're struggling with?

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Divide By Zero]I don't know why violence either entices or shocks people away.[/quote]

I think it's the detail of violence that makes the difference. Not the violence perse.


This series sounds it has some interesting themes going on. But from reading the comments it comes with a lot of depravity.

Watching a bunch of sexual actice robots is not on my bucket list.

 

[axj]

I've heard it has extremely graphic sex scenes. If you've had difficulty dealing with porn, I recommend that you do not watch this TV show.

You are basing your recommendation on incorrect hearsay. This TV show has a lot of clinical nudity of the 'robots', but no graphic sex scenes.

That's not accurate. In either the first or second episode there's a threesome and later on in the series there's a full on bacchanalia style orgy-esque party, and those are the only two that are popping in my mind. If folks have had difficulty with porn in the past, clinical nudity won't exactly be good for them either - and there's a ton of it.

Considering Niall placed the warning there specifically for people who have had difficulty ditching porn, I'm wondering why you felt the need to disregard it. You realize that you may have given someone a push to watch the show which could easily trigger a relapse into a habit they're struggling with?

Niall said he heard that there are "extremely graphic sex scenes", which is simply not the case. Of course, we can debate on what is a graphic sex scene, but as Divide by Zero said, it is all done subtly and not graphic.

Considering Niall's warning was based on wrong assumptions, I also wonder why you felt you needed to defend him by implying I may have put someone in danger of relapsing.

 

[Cyre2067]

There are really no sex scenes besides nudity as axj stated. I don't think there was any groping/etc even at the "-jezebel- house"! In comparing to Game of Thrones and a lot of hollywood films, I can say it is very well done and subtle.

But Niall was warning that some people with porn addictions may get triggered.

That's the point, we're talking about folks who may be vulnerable and don't need extra triggers.

Niall said he heard that there are "extremely graphic sex scenes", which is simply not the case. Of course, we can debate on what is a graphic sex scene, but as Divide by Zero said, it is all done subtly and not graphic.

Considering Niall's warning was based on wrong assumptions, I also wonder why you felt you needed to defend him by implying I may have put someone in danger of relapsing.

I think it was dangerous for y'all to dismiss the warning. I've watched every episode and overall I enjoy the show. There's usually a sex scene. Sometime's it's tastefully done, and the sex is implied. Other times there is a graphic display where naked forms and shown grinding on each other.

Now you don't see penetration directly, but that's not the point. There is enough of a display there that IF folks are struggling with a porn addiction they should probably NOT watch the show - that's it.

It seems like y'all are doing PR for Westworld, I mean the writing is really good and the acting is impressive - but I don't know why you'd go so far as to dismiss a warning that's specifically there for folks who are struggling. It seemed really lacking in external consideration. Perhaps I'm wrong and totally out of line, but I don't think so.

This is about dealing with marijuana addiction, but it's just as relevant here:

Seemingly Irrelevant Decisions

As treatment progresses, patients will invariably encounter high-risk situations related to cocaine, even with the best efforts. Certain exposures are beyond the abuser's control, for example, living in an area where cocaine abounds but lacking the resources to relocate.

Another class of exposures, however, that patients often experience as beyond their control actually involves behaviors determined by the patients. Seemingly Irrelevant Decisions (Marlatt and Gordon 1985) refer to those decisions, rationalizations, and minimizations of risk that move patients closer to or even into high-risk situations, although they may seem unrelated to cocaine use.

Working with these Seemingly Irrelevant Decisions emphasizes the cognitive aspects of treatment. Those who benefit most from this process tend to possess intact cognitive functions and some ability to reflect upon their cognitive and emotional lives. This session is also particularly helpful to individuals who have trouble thinking through their behavior and its consequences, such as patients with residual attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, antisocial traits, or difficulty with impulse control. For such individuals, the material in this session (as well as the session on problem solving) often takes some time to be understood and assimilated, but it is usually valued highly.

Understand Seemingly Irrelevant Decisions

A critical task for therapists is to teach patients how to recognize and interrupt Seemingly Irrelevant Decision chains before the onset of actual use. While it is possible to interrupt such a chain at any point prior to use, it is more difficult toward the end of the chain when patients may already be in situations where cocaine is available and conditioned cues abound. Thus, it is desirable to teach patients how to detect the decisions that commonly occur toward the beginning of the chain, where risk, craving, and availability of cocaine are relatively low.

This may involve patients' learning to detect subtle but painful affect states that they frequently try to counter with cocaine, such as boredom or loneliness. It often involves familiarizing patients with their distortions of thinking (e.g., rationalizations, denial) so these may be detected and used as signals for greater vigilance.

Certain distortions are fairly common, such as the thought, "I could handle going to a bar." Others, however, are more reflective of the patient's cognitive style. For instance, one patient tended to project his thoughts onto others. In describing a relapse, during which the patient had encountered a friend who had cocaine, the patient stated, "I caught him with his guard down." Another patient, recounting a slip, described the various thoughts he experienced prior to winding up in an area of town where his former dealer resided and where the patient eventually used cocaine. He stated that earlier he thought "I have to go to the bakery" which "happened" to be in a high-risk area, but he had not linked this with a desire to use. The therapist pointed out that his use of "I have to..." sounded very much like craving. Here, again, the patient could now catch himself "having" to do certain things which led to high-risk activities or locations.

Another variation of this phenomenon occurs in treatment when patients tell therapists that they "have" to take "this vacation," "attend that party," "spend time" with particular drug-using friends, and so on. These provide therapists with the opportunity to relate the patients' urgency to engage in such activities with the urge to use cocaine.

Seemingly Irrelevant Decisions are dealt with by applying recognize, avoid, and cope - recognizing Seemingly Irrelevant Decisions and the thoughts that go with them, avoiding risky decisions, and coping with high-risk situations.

that comes from here: _http://archives.drugabuse.gov/TXManuals/CBT/CBT11.html

So you can see how your and DBZ's comments may have indicated to someone struggling that 'oh I can handle it, folks on the forum said it wasn't that graphic' when in reality, even though the sex scenes aren't pornographic per se, it could titillate them to the point where they go back to old habits.