Were 460 years added to the official chronology?

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Sorry for going slightly off-topic, but all of this medieval (pseudo-) history is really fascinating and makes you wonder... One of the things I'm trying to do for a while is tracing intellectual currents and figure out just where and when there are "markers" that got intellectual life derailed - the hypothesis being that there was some kind of manipulation going on over time that put certain puzzle pieces in place in order to, over a long time span, produce the intellectual mess we find ourselves in, while, on the other hand, not derailing progress on certain fronts.

I'm currently reading the fantastic book "The Idea of Nature" by Collingwood, and his reconstruction of Aristotle struck me as interesting; his cosmology seems to have some similarities with the Cs' cosmology, for example. And it seems that the idea he was against the Platonic conception is wrong, and that he actually developed it further and refined it. Anyway, I looked a bit into how his works actually came to be, and how they supposedly reached us, and oh boy! What a mess! Again, some medieval monasteries seem to be at the forefront and it's hard to know what they redacted, suppressed, reshuffled, or just made up. Supposedly there were some original manuscript in Byzantine that were used by some scholars in the late middle ages, but nobody seems to know about those and it's not even clear what they were. Some things seem to have come down via Irish monks, which makes sense in light of what Pierre said above about the Irish having been spared from cataclysm to some extent. Some ideas came down via the Arabs, via multiple translations, but many things got mixed up (or not?), such as Aristotelian and Platonic ideas. And according to official scholarship, all we have from Aristotle is part of his "esoteric" work, claimed to be lectures to his students, while none of his supposed published ("exoteric") work survived. So yeah, what a mess. Where do you even begin!? Western history really seems to have been turned into chaos pretty good!
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
I'm currently reading the fantastic book "The Idea of Nature" by Collingwood, and his reconstruction of Aristotle struck me as interesting; his cosmology seems to have some similarities with the Cs' cosmology, for example. And it seems that the idea he was against the Platonic conception is wrong, and that he actually developed it further and refined it. Anyway, I looked a bit into how his works actually came to be, and how they supposedly reached us, and oh boy! What a mess! Again, some medieval monasteries seem to be at the forefront and it's hard to know what they redacted, suppressed, reshuffled, or just made up. Supposedly there were some original manuscript in Byzantine that were used by some scholars in the late middle ages, but nobody seems to know about those and it's not even clear what they were. Some things seem to have come down via Irish monks, which makes sense in light of what Pierre said above about the Irish having been spared from cataclysm to some extent. Some ideas came down via the Arabs, via multiple translations, but many things got mixed up (or not?), such as Aristotelian and Platonic ideas. And according to official scholarship, all we have from Aristotle is part of his "esoteric" work, claimed to be lectures to his students, while none of his supposed published ("exoteric") work survived. So yeah, what a mess. Where do you even begin!? Western history really seems to have been turned into chaos pretty good!

Discussion of texts and transmission of texts is certainly NOT off topic here! In fact, it is part of the crux of the matter. History cannot be done if there is nothing to work with and so texts must be examined - I call it 'interrogated' - in order to determine what is or is not a good witness. I did this in "From Paul to Mark" and explained why some texts were rejected as being non-historical fiction, and others were tentatively accepted as being at least partly historical and partly propaganda, others were given a bit higher value, and some texts are only useful for what they can tell you about the author and his/her audience.

It seems to me that there were quite a number of agendas in the re-writing of history, in different times and places, and that is part of why it is such an abominable mess. Yet, from what I have seen, the ancient writers usually did not invent things out of nothing; they always had something real to work off of and it seems they may have justified what they were doing by retelling things the way they thought it SHOULD have been. And generally, when they do that, they give themselves away now and again. Consider Paul's war with the Jerusalem Christians and the way Acts depicts this. The author of Acts had to somehow explain Paul's antagonism and yet still get him into the fold. So, he told a story about how Paul was a persecutor of Christians who then had a dramatic conversion experience. He used bits and pieces of information from Paul's letters to construct this story so that there were just enough echoes of Paul's words to suggest to the non-discerning reader that, yeah, it really must have happened this way!

Indeed, some of the ancient writers were pretty darn good with what they were doing - rhetoric and persuasion were, after all, the bedrock of controlling the masses - so we should be alert to how they worked. And this was not something that was just confined to the NT - it was ubiquitous. In fact, to those with their eyes open, it is pretty much status quo even today: control of information is control of the masses.

So, when examining the texts, all of these issues come into play. I spent a couple of years reading studies/books about texts and transmission, and how the experts make their judgment calls. I was not happy with the results, but I proceeded with caution anyway. As poor Walter Goffart said when hit in the face with evidence of the fraud of Gregory of Tours, "... is there anywhere else to go?"

What I want to make clear here is that sorting this mess out is not a task for a single person or a single lifetime: the mess is too big and the work burden too great. I dealt with one small slice of history in one small area of the world and the labor was freaking enormous!
 

Jtucker

Jedi
Discussion of texts and transmission of texts is certainly NOT off topic here! In fact, it is part of the crux of the matter. History cannot be done if there is nothing to work with and so texts must be examined - I call it 'interrogated' - in order to determine what is or is not a good witness. I did this in "From Paul to Mark" and explained why some texts were rejected as being non-historical fiction, and others were tentatively accepted as being at least partly historical and partly propaganda, others were given a bit higher value, and some texts are only useful for what they can tell you about the author and his/her audience.
It's so difficult to even crack the surface. I delved into a superficial search for exactly where and when some of the most famous late Classical texts and Roman statues were first unearthed. Good luck! Most of them appear between the 13th and 16th century of unknown provenance. I don't even know if these statues were in a private collection, sold or donated to a museum and the "experts" at the time assigned a name to them based on some false history they thought was accurate? So do any of the late, major Roman statuary that wasn't found in situ - have classical latin inscriptions on them (that isn't "Vulgate") naming the personage? Think of how long the looting trail could be for 800 years between the fall and early medieval Europe?

After going through the thread on Gregory of Tours, his anachronisms seem to put him at the forefront of a insertion of medieval theology into late antiquity hundreds of years later.

It may be possible that a Carolingian "recension-ist" in the 9th century helped create the late Roman empire just enough to pepper it with Christian references from Nero forward building to Constantine. And then Gregory created the timeline for the "Patristic Tradition" on top of that centuries later. From what Laura posted above - there are many sources for what happened under Justinian (Procopius + John the Syrian et. al) - too many to fake or revise in my opinion. So you have a detailed snapshot of the end. There is already a Christian controversy and there are legalistic issues involving a populace of Jews and Christians.

From what I've read from Procopius, Justinian's not really a Christian? Or is he "politically" a christian - possibly exactly like Constantine is portrayed? All those heavy edicts he levels point towards a politicization of Christianity that must have survived in some form after the cataclysm to re-emerge as medieval Christianity. My impression is that from Paul to Justinian some form of Christianity has grown substantially, but it is still just a part of the ancient "inclusive" empire multi-religion mosaic. Gregory re-creates the patristic tradition within a faked Carolingian timeline of the late empire maybe centuries after the first recensions/insertions were made.

One thing I found very interesting about Suetonius - whom is by what I can tell - a very major original source of the empire timeline from Caesar to Domitian - is where the oldest "Suetonian" manuscript resides and its reported age:

"The oldest surviving copy of The Twelve Caesars was made in Tours in the late 8th or early 9th century AD, and is currently held in the Bibliothèque nationale de France. It is missing the prologue and the first part of the life of Julius Caesar, as are all other surviving copies of the book."
 

Jtucker

Jedi
"The oldest surviving copy of The Twelve Caesars was made in Tours in the late 8th or early 9th century AD, and is currently held in the Bibliothèque nationale de France. It is missing the prologue and the first part of the life of Julius Caesar, as are all other surviving copies of the book."
Another figure that needs to be "interrogated" in my opinion is, St Jerome. He purportedly wrote the "Vulgate" bible in the 5th or 6th century. If as the C's say, Vulgate is not a language of the late empire, than my suspicion is that the official name of the oldest text may contain its more accurate date:

Codex Sangallensis 1395​


Even if you just go through the superficial Wiki page on St. Jerome - he reads like the 4th century inventor of medieval Christianity. What a huge amount of writings of his have survived luckily. And the Oldes manuscript is in Verona. Not far from Ravenna - which I think may be a link between the conflation of Byzantine histories and the re-creation of the late Western Empire before Justinian. I think the "Ravenna Exarchate" under another "Gregory" has something to do with this.
 

Human

The Living Force
Another figure that needs to be "interrogated" in my opinion is, St Jerome. He purportedly wrote the "Vulgate" bible in the 5th or 6th century. If as the C's say, Vulgate is not a language of the late empire, than my suspicion is that the official name of the oldest text may contain its more accurate date:

Until 19th century, Glagolitic script was called "St. Jerome's script", which means that, if Glagolitsa was made for the Slavs, Slavs were there on the Balkans in 4th century of St. Jerome, just a bit after the official time of Constantine the Great, and at the similar time with the Goths.

On the other hand, if also St. Brothers had something to do with creating Glagolitsa, then through this "St. Jerome" link we can move them from 9th century to 4th century, which more or less amounts to interestingly 470 years. :-)

The tradition that the alphabet was designed by Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius has not been universally accepted. A once common belief was that the Glagolitic was created or used in the 4th century by St. Jerome (Latin: Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus), hence the alphabet is sometimes named Hieronymian.

Until the end of the 18th century, a strange but widespread opinion dominated that the Glagolitic writing system, which was in use in Dalmatia and Istria along with neighboring islands, including the translation of the Holy Scripture, owe their existence to the famous church father St. Jerome. Knowing him as the author of the Latin Vulgate, considering him – by his own words, born on the border between Dalmatia and Pannonia (remembering that the Dalmatian borders extended well into Istria at that time) – presumed to be an Illyrian, the self-styled Slavic intellectuals in Dalmatia very early began to ascribe to him the invention of glagolitsa, possibly with the intention of more successfully defending both Slavic writing and the Slavic holy service against prosecutions and prohibitions from Rome's hierarchy, thus using the opinion of the famous Latin Father of the Church to protect their church rituals which were inherited not from the Greeks Cyril and Methodius but unknown. We do not know who was the first to put in motion this unscientifically-based tradition about Jerome's authorship of the Glagolitic script and translation of the Holy Scripture, but in 1248 this version came to the knowledge of Pope Innocent IV. <...> The belief in Jerome as an inventor of the Glagolitic lasted many centuries, not only in his homeland, i.e. in Dalmatia and Croatia, not only in Rome, due to Slavs living there... but also in the West. In the 14th century, Croatian monks brought the legend to the Czechs, and even the Emperor Charles IV believed them.[25]
— Jagić, Vatroslav, Glagolitica. Würdigung neuentdeckter Fragmente, Wien, 1890
 

Voyageur

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
From the Historical Events Database thread, and speaking above of coins, and below of suspicions, a couple of Charlemagne things came to mind.
The Huns/Avars mentioned in event 2278 could be in year 630 or the same event as in 623 or it could be later and filling my gap. Around 610 Fredegar stops to mention events like eclipses, prodigies, etc. and there are only stories about Frankish elite and elite from other countries (most probably propaganda or maybe made up or maybe redacted history). The book ends with its continuation with young Charlemagne. There are a lot of parts, which you could set to another year easily with just changing a few words. There are gaps (years without any description) and parts where stories from several different years are mentioned. And some of the stories between ca. 610 and Charlemagne looks very suspicious to me. I included them in the database.

Hesitant to add this, yet there is something about coins (and forgeries) over the ages. Here we have a Likeness of Charlemagne in coins (not saying it is a forgery, however...):

On 09 December 2020, by Caroline Legrand

This extremely rare denier struck in 813-814 features a bust of Emperor Charlemagne. Only 45 coins of any kind bearing his likeness are known.​

A Likeness of Charlemagne
Aachen, 813-814, denier with the bust of Charlemagne, diam. 1.93 cm (approx. 0.76 in).
Estimate: €15,000

Emperor Charlemagne is featured on this coin’s obverse side. He is facing right, without his legendary flourishing beard but with a moustache and a laurel wreath on his head, in a still very Roman fashion, with the inscription “KAROLUS IMP(erator) AVG(ustus)”. A temple appears on the reverse side, with the words “XPICTIANA RELIGIO” replacing the name of the place where the coin was issued. From 805 most of Charlemagne’s coinage was struck in the imperial palace in Aachen in order to avoid counterfeiting. Since Pepin the Short, the Carolingian kings had abandoned Roman coinage to mint their own currency, but this silver denier was only in circulation for a very short time. It was struck during the last phase of the emperor’s reign, when Charlemagne, who died on January 28, 814, was officially recognized as emperor, entitling him to have his likeness affixed to his coinage, just as his peers in the East did. The temple’s presence indicates that he also held power over the spiritual realm. Specialist Mr. Kluge says this coin was probably struck to mark the crowning of his son Louis the Pious as co-emperor in September 813. Coming from a former French private collection, the point under Charlemagne’s bust sets it apart from those previously known.​

His likeness (and no famous beard)? Adorned with a laurel wreath?

There is also that bit about being struck in the imperial palace to "avoid" counterfeiting, which suggests there was counterfeiting; well suppose that is a given, and perhaps this coin was intentionally counterfeited (to impress a memory for a time) or, it was struck earlier and not of Charlemagne at all? Only 45 of them are known?

The coin that "features a bust" seems to be rather hypothetical as far as busts go. You can see a depiction of a bust of him from 1350, based upon examination of his skull from Aachen's Cathedral.

The Bust of Charlemagne (de: Karlsbüste) is a reliquary from around 1350 which contains the top part of Charlemagne's skull.[2] The reliquary is part of the treasure kept in the Aachen Cathedral Treasury. Made in the Mosan region (the valley of the River Meuse), long a centre of high-quality metalwork, the bust is a masterpiece both of late Gothic metalwork and of figural sculpture.

The Bust of Charlemagne, as a masterpiece of Mosan goldwork, initiated a height of silver-gilt naturalistic reliquary busts.[3]

That is an interesting forensic guess, and with a beard to boot and yet not for the coin.

So, the Cathedral in Aachen is said to contain Charlemagne's remains (the initial Cathedral was also said to have been started by Charlemagne in 796, and it was Frederick Barbarossa who canonized him in 1165). The wiki page states of the chapel:

The construction is credited to Odo of Metz {possible Armenian - which further states: "The architect was Odo of Metz, and the original design was of a domed octagonal inner room enveloped by a 16 sided outer wall.[4] The span and height of Charlemagne's Palatine chapel was unsurpassed north of the Alps for over two hundred years.} The exact date of completion is unclear; however, a letter from Alcuin, in 798, states that it was nearing completion, and in 805, Pope Leo III consecrated the finished chapel.[4] A foundry was brought to Aachen near the end of the 8th century and was utilized to cast multiple bronze pieces, from doors and the railings, to the horse and bear statues.[5][nb 1] Charlemagne was buried in the chapel in 814.[1] It suffered a large amount of damage in a Viking raid in 881, and was restored in 983.

Regarding the octagonal design, this was, more or less, a Roman (later borrowed for Byzantine) style under Constantine - see here and here, apparently copied over in the above by Odo for Charlemagne's "centre of power." This cathedral was said to have been
consecrated (805) by then Pope Leo III "in honour of the Virgin Mary."

Fulcanelli in "Dwellings of the Philosophers" (first chapter) suggests that the dating of cathedral buildings is an anomaly. So I asked myself if they were much older than one might think. It is enough to observe the Romanesque abbeys, churches and abbeys in France and elsewhere in Europe to realize that they are much more "pagan" than Christian. I am referring here to the symbols inscribed in the stone and not to the various artifacts introduced later. I did the exercise this summer and they are indeed filled with Celtic symbols without any trace of Jesus imagery and they are all dedicated to Our Lady. Have we ever wondered why the name of Jesus is almost totally absent in the names of our old so-called Christian buildings?

Don't know what to think on these buildings, and then there are their foundations being later added upon, too. Somewhat related ("symbols" on stone), had further had a look to the country of Andorra (happened to have been there once) as it, at a point, looked to the Visigoths and Carolingians: the legend of Charlemagne. Notice something else that was noted when reading up on Andorra, where some of the churches (some old structures depicted to the VI century), and yet the most interesting, not a church, was what is called Roc de les Bruixes that shows etchings (symbols) carved on rock, such as what looks like a Kite and Pentacles (there is a YT of the rock here, and one wonders, due to hidden/wooded location, if there are not yet many more). Of the latter pentacles, it states:

It is the pentacles however which particularly capture one’s attention, and several can be found on the rock. A fascinating discussion of the meanings behind pentacle symbolism in Western rock art (Coimbra, 2011) provides us with some potential interpretations as to their meaning/function. One particular interpretation which Coimbra applies to a site at the Coll de la Font Roja (Caixas, East Pyrenees, France) is of extreme interest, as it describes a pentacle in relation to a ‘figure composed of ten rays with a central cupmark and a kind of tail that may represent a meteor or comet.’ (Coimbra, 2011, 125). This is suggested to be a recording either of an astronomical event, and another carving on the same rock of a rayed figure, although this time with no tail, is interpreted by Abelanet as a solar symbol (1990). On the Roc de Bruixes, one finds three of these ray-like figures, often with pentacles nearby, so could this indeed be a representation either of the sun, astronomical events or perhaps even a form of religious symbolism, seeing as in prehistory we find a close kinship between astronomy and religion?

1642025545547.png

1642025569653.png

1642025589488.png

As is so often the case with rock art, the truth as to the meanings of the carving may never be known concretely. However, comparative studies with other sites of a similar date such as Val Camonica reveal a curious set of potentially ‘universalist’ symbols that tend towards those above and those below. The need to inscribe representations of ourselves, the world around us, and very possibly the stars, points towards a common and ancient desire to place ourselves, through art, in a relationship with the cosmos. Linking this into folkloric tales of the supernatural, of witches influencing storms and otherworldly beings appearing in broad moonlight, it is easy to see how sites such as Roc de les Bruixes can become symbols of man’s desire for influence over nature, and for knowledge of his position in the grander scheme of things. Whilst the rock may or may not have featured in genuine acts of witchcraft in the parish Canillo (although it certainly does in its folk memory), it seems very likely to have occupied a position of importance for observances in the archaic past. For that reason, it is perhaps a blessing that it remains relatively hidden in the deep woods, watching over the valley, accessible only to those who have a knowledge of the land.

Works cited:

Abélanet, J. 1990 ‘Les roches gravées nord catalanes’ in Terra Nostra 5, 101–209. Centre d’Etudes Préhistoriques Catalanes, Université de Perpignan, Prada.
Campmajo, P & Crabol, D. 2009. Les gravures rupestres de Cerdagne (Pyrenees Catalanes). Quelques elements pour la chronologies et une approche smbolique. Archeo, Vol. 66, no. 24, 61 – 78.
Campmajo, P & Ferrer i Jane, J. 2010. Le nouveau corpus d’inscriptions Iberiques rupestres de la Cerdagne (1): Premiers resultats. Serta Palaeohispanica J. de Hoz Palaeohispanica 10. 249 – 274.
Canturri, P. 2003. Els gravats prehistórics de les Valls d’Andorra, in Gonzalez-Perez, J (Ed) Actes del Ier Congrés Internacional de gravats rupestres i murals : homenatge a Lluís Díez-Coronel. 23- 27 November 1992, Lleida. Institut d’Estudis Iler- dencs, Lleida. 619-634.
Coimbra, F. 2011. ‘The symbolism of the pentagram in West European rock art: A semiotic approach.’ In Papers from the XXIV Valcamonica Symposium.122 – 129. Donwloadable here: http://www.ccsp.it/web/INFOCCSP/VCS storico/vcs2011pdf/coimbra.pdf
Mas, D. 1977. ‘El Roc de les Bruixes: Noves aportacions als gravats rupestres andorrans’ in Quaderns d’ Estudis Andorrans. No. 2, 5-31
Patlapin, J. Sorcieres et Sorciers dans le Pyrenees: Recits et Legendes. Urrugne: Editions Pimientos.
More (and better!) photos of these carvings can be found here: NiruDia.com is for sale | HugeDomains

The article dose not fix a date for this rock's carved art, other than being Bronze Age (above article):

The comparison to the carvings found on the ‘Peyro Escrito’ (‘Written Stone’) of Olargues is interesting, these being Bronze Age in date, which helps to place the activity of the Roc de Bruixes in an historical context. Both feature an extensive series of incised lines, radiating lines from a central point, pentacles (rough) and the peculiar ‘hopscotch’ carvings. French archaeologist Pierre Campmajo has proposed that some of the carvings on the Roc de Bruixes may be remnants of an Iberian script, similar to those found in the Cerdanya, and when one examines the carvings studies in the Cerdanya there are certainly some similarities between certain carvings (Campmajo & Ferrer i Jane, 2010). Another site nearer to Andorra is that of Tossal de Cava in the Alt-Urgell region, which has a number of carvings which are extraordinarily similar to those found on Roc de les Bruixes.

As for Tossal de Cava (Alt-Urgell), they do look very similar as can be seen in this paper, with the point made as follows:

Post-Palaeolithic Filiform Rock Art in Western Europe.

Finally, it was considered that regarding chronology there’s still a lot a work to be done about Post- Palaeolithic filiform rock art. Indeed, there are known examples dating from Late Neolithic, from all the Metal Ages, and even from historical periods, until the Middle Ages and more, reaching some examples the 20th century.

The Andorra wiki page adds further:

La Balma de la Margineda {very interesting Roman bridge}, found by archaeologists at Sant Julià de Lòria, was settled in 9,500 BC as a passing place between the two sides of the Pyrenees. The seasonal camp was perfectly located for hunting and fishing by the groups of hunter-gatherers from Ariege and Segre.[31]

During the Neolithic Age, a group of people moved to the Valley of Madriu (the present-day Natural Parc located in Escaldes-Engordany declared UNESCO World Heritage Site) as a permanent camp in 6640 BC. The population of the valley grew cereals, raised domestic livestock, and developed a commercial trade with people from the Segre and Occitania.[32][33]

Other archaeological deposits include the Tombs of Segudet (Ordino) and Feixa del Moro (Sant Julià de Lòria), both dated in 4900–4300 BC as an example of the Urn culture in Andorra.[32][33] The model of small settlements began to evolve to a complex urbanism during the Bronze Age. Metallurgical items of iron, ancient coins, and relicaries can be found in the ancient sanctuaries scattered around the country.

The sanctuary of Roc de les Bruixes (Stone of the Witches) is perhaps the most important archeological complex of this age in Andorra, located in the parish of Canillo, about the rituals of funerals, ancient scripture and engraved stone murals.[34][33]

It might be a big leap to suggest that the Bronze Age date for this rock is incorrect - "regarding chronology there’s still a lot a work to be done," yet the suggested bronze age etchings seem to have survived very well in all that passage of time, with erosion and weathering being what they are), thus could they possible depict something that happened later in time when things went dark?

Further along in time, then there appear to be those oddities of painting in the life of people like Charlemagne in select time periods (elites of the Franks?) - accounted for from surviving texts and decrees, such as being canonized some 350 years later from the date in which it was said Charlemagne had died after commissioning that centre of power.

Don't know how one unravels these odd times when it is known that there were such gaps, forgeries - counterfeiting, while inventing texts that write over history. Coins, rock foundations, etchings and textual inconstancies are all a part of it.
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
When discussing the official chronology: I can think of three stages, and we are at point 2, and 3:
1. Accepting the current timeline of the fall of the Roman Empire and early hundreds of Christianity, as taught in main stream sources.
2. Doubting or rejecting the current timeline.
3. Proposing improvements to the timeline.

It is more doable to counter the lie that our history is true, since this can be done by pointing out glaring inconsistencies, than it might be to repair the timeline itself. There is also the question if it is worthwhile, beyond a certain point, to fix what is broken, since even modern history is being meddled with, and false flags and sneaky deals are presented as if they were not.

The first mention of the approximate numbers of missing years I could find, occurs in the Caesar Session from July 12 in 2014. It began with a question and the answer was: "There were years added so often, that it will take some hard work to sort it out!"

Here is the context:
Session 12 July 2014
A: Christianity was a series of developments over a very long period of time and thus your question does not approach any possibility of being answered as you have asked it.

Q: (L) I think that the final putting together of Christianity was...

(Perceval) More recent.

(L) Way more recently, like the 9th or 10th century. I mean, everything that was going on before then was just a variety of Caesar myths and Caesar worship.

(Perceval) The initial development of Christianity, was it done or made in its initial form - its first development, let's say after Caesar - was that in a response to the deification of Caesar by the people, and his values?

A: Yes.

Q: (Chu) If it was glorified, then...

(Perceval) So that was the start of it.

A: Carotta is very close in his analysis of how language issues affected the transmission and distortions. If there are any villains it would be the Flavians and the Carolingians.

Q: (Pierre) So Carotta was right. The Flavians creating the Christian myth... And then the Carolingians after the collapse of the empire recreating the 2.0 version of Christianity.

(Perceval) Is the time scale that we have for the kind of Dark Ages, fall of Rome, is that more or less correct...?

(L) What do you mean? You mean is our time line...

(Perceval) In terms of our timeline, from the fall of Rome back to Caesar's death... from the cosmic disaster, those 500 years or whatever it is...

A: There were years added so often that it will take some hard work to sort it out!

Q: (L) Am I right in my idea that we can date the segments of the timeline by Halley's Comet? Is Halley's Comet regular enough back into those times that it can be relied on?

A: Yes


Q: (L) So, when they have Halley's Comet coming at these vastly expanded periods, then those are the periods where years have been added?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) And in some cases they're added, and in some cases they're subtracted. It's very strange. Like they can add 10, and then subtract 5. Overall there's a definite, I think that... I think that enough has been added that we're off by 200 or...

(Pierre) Maybe you can ask this question. Caesar was born roughly 2,114 years ago according to our official calendars. In reality, how many years ago was Caesar born?

A: 1635. {Difference of 479 years}
I thought of the reasons for the messed up chronology and the possibilities of an improved timeline from the perspective of what is said in the session that introduced Paleochristianity:
Q: (L) Okay. Were the Bogomils and the Cathars - as I have surmised - close to understanding this original reality?

A: They had some very close approximations, but they were still influenced by many of the distorted religious ideas of the time.
And:
Q: (L) In other words, there's no hope for our planet or our species if normal human beings do not come together and get over these varied pathological belief systems and religions and "your truth" and "my truth" and all that sort of thing?

A: Yes. All of that was created and spread by pathological types under the influence of their hyperdimensional masters for the purpose of turning this planet into a "hell on earth" with them as the masters.
The context is here:
Q: (L) What's next?

A: How about "Paleochristianity"?

Q: (laughter) (L) Well since you brought it up... (J) You should respond with, "Now that's an interesting question!" (laughter) (L) What do you mean by Paleochristianity? (laughter) (L) Would you define Paleochristianity for us?

A: The knowledge of realms that all men comprehended before the "fall".


Q: (L) Why is it called Christianity? Isn't Christianity strictly related to Christianity as we know it?

A: Oh no! The word was co-opted and everything you know of as Christianity is distorted. For example, the earliest "Christ" was a woman.

Q: (L) Okay. Were the Bogomils and the Cathars - as I have surmised - close to understanding this original reality?

A: They had some very close approximations, but they were still influenced by many of the distorted religious ideas of the time.


Q: (L) Okay, what is the importance of Paleochristianity?

A: The only hope for the survival of your realm and species.

Q: (L) In what sense do you mean that?

A: Unification of aim: survival and avoidance of the destruction hanging over your heads as a consequence of the machinations of psychopathy.


Q: (L) So in other words, some of the thoughts and discussions that we've had over the past week or two {about the global situation} are pretty much on the money?

A: Yes. More or less. There has also been some nudging from this side. Time is getting "short" even though there really is no time. Remember what we said about being wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

Q: (L) How many questions do you have left Joe? (J) Given the end of the world scenario, all my other questions pale into insignificance. (laughter) (L) What questions do you have? (Ark) They would not fit this session. (L) They belong to a different sessions with Joe's questions? (laughter) (L) Okay. What is the most essential thing for us to know about Paleochristianity, about what people need to know?

A: People need to know about pathology as you call it. In former times it was often referred to as demonic possession. In some cases, they were right.

Q: (L) But clearly not in all cases, and that needs to made absolutely clear because there are some people who are just sick.

A: Yes. Hyperdimensional influences are often the cause of pathology. This can be due to influences at this level of reality including dietary and nurture.

Q: (L) Okay, what else?

A: Just as detoxing the body can lead to abundant health, so can detoxing the mind and environment lead to abundant life and happiness for all. But as was the "fall", it must be a group decision and the differences and pathological blocks to objective understanding must be removed.

Q: (L) In other words, there's no hope for our planet or our species if normal human beings do not come together and get over these varied pathological belief systems and religions and "your truth" and "my truth" and all that sort of thing?

A: Yes. All of that was created and spread by pathological types under the influence of their hyperdimensional masters for the purpose of turning this planet into a "hell on earth" with them as the masters.
They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. What is needed is for many people to begin to make direct connections with their higher centers. This has been done via the "work" up to now, but there are other methods to accelerate the process and obtain the needed assistance.
Pointing out the inconsistencies of the official chronology could be one element when "the differences and pathological blocks to objective understanding must be removed."
 

Aeneas

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
So, the Cathedral in Aachen is said to contain Charlemagne's remains (the initial Cathedral was also said to have been started by Charlemagne in 796, and it was Frederick Barbarossa who canonized him in 1165).
Interestingly the cathedral in Aachen is not the only church allegedly founded by Charlemagne. In Zurich, there is a church which everybody talks about with Charlemagne in mind. It is called Grossmünster and it is built where an allegedly Carolingian church stood.
According to legend, the Grossmünster was founded by Charlemagne, whose horse fell to its knees over the tombs of Felix and Regula, Zürich's patron saints.

Another story gives more details of this myth and this is where it gets interesting:
Felix and Regula are said to have been members of the Thebaic Legion which had been massacred in Canton Valais at the end of the 3rd Century as a result of it's Christian beliefs. Felix and Regula fled to Zürich where they were subsequently executed. According to the legend, they picked up their decapitated heads and walked 40 paces to the place where they wished to be buried. Later, Charlemagne, on a hunting expedition, pursued a stag from Aachen (in Germany) to Zürich. At the graves of Regula and Felix, Charlemagne''s horse stumbled and so Charlemagne decided to found a church which would later become Grossmünster at this site.
(Aachen to Zurich is by road just over 600km, so he probably stayed overnight somewhere on this long cat and mouse play, changing horses as well. The stag too, might have taken a few rest along the way before obligingly playing the hunted as the next day dawned. In those times a fit horse and rider would cover 80-100km per day according to some sources, so at least a week for this legendary journey.)

More of interest is why Charlemagne or the scribes who concocted the story would found a church there so as to play homage to Regula (female soldier?) and her brother Felix, who had escaped a massacre which had taken place allegedly in year 286AD in Saint Maurice 250km south of Zurich? Seriously would he or any of the audience to such a story know of something which happened almost 500 years earlier and where throughout these 500 years hardly any written records were available for people to read. It would have been much more believable if this was done by Constantine a couple of decades after the event. At least the listeners or people at the time would have known what it was about. And somehow the legend of Felix and Regula is still strong to this day, which could indicate a memory of a real event even if the true nature of that event is obscured and lost.

The Theban massacre is itself interesting as it was a legion which was intensely loyal to Ceasar, yet were all devoutly Christian:
The Theban Legion contained 6,600 men from the ancient town of Thebes near Luxor and Karnak, Egypt. These Egyptian youths were known as a fierce group of fighters with an allegiance to Caesar. And they were, also, all Christians.

At Saint-Maurice, Switzerland, then called Agaunum, the orders were given to kill all in the Theban Legion. The Legion had refused to obey an order from the Emperor to kill local Christians. The other legions’ soldiers were given orders to “decimate” them by putting to death a tenth of its men. This act was repeated over and over again until the entire Theban legion was put to death.

In command of the Theban Legion was a man named Mauritius—now designated Saint Maurice.
There are a couple of accounts of this massacre and voices have been raised as to whether it happened. The year 286 was when Diocletian and Maximian were emperors and before Constantine took over in 306 supposedly.

The story about the alleged Theban massacre appears to have come from Eucharius, Bishop of Lyons (c. 380-449), who chose to write about this event some 120+ years later and addressed to the "bishop of the Helvetians",
““From Eucherius to the Lord Holy and Most Blessed Bishop in Christ, Salvius (Bishop of Octodurum).
And the sources which Eucharius had:
I have sought the truth of this very matter from suitable sources…from the holy Isaac, Bishop of Geneva, who had learned these things in turn from the most blessed Bishop Theodore, a man of an earlier time….I offer these writings of mine, if they are deemed worthy of support.”
When one looks up Bishop Theodore, one gets the feeling that some fake one's have sneaked in as there are 3 contenders:
It is possible that three distinct historical bishops with the name Theodulus or Theodorus are venerated as a single saint.

  1. The first would be the late 4th-century bishop recorded as Theodorus (fl. c. 350–400).
  2. The second Theodorus/Theodulus is recorded for the year 515. It was at this time that the seat of the bishopric was moved from Martigny to Sion and the remains of the first Theodorus were transferred there.
  3. A third and possibly legendary Theodore is recorded only in Acts written by a monk called Ruodpertus in the c. the 12th century; he is said to have been installed as secular ruler of the Valais by Charlemagne in 805. The byname "of Grammont" properly only applies to this third Theodorus, who "in certain propria" is said to be a member of thae baronial family of this name.[2] The existence of the third Theodorus/Theodulus, "of Grammont", was first questioned in the Swiss Reformation, by Johann Stumpf (1546).[3]
Again perhaps one or two are fake or perhaps some are the same, they just forgot to update all their calendars. In the above 1) and 3) could be the same.
In this story of the alleged Theban massacre, I almost get the feeling that it is story concocted to create a strong Christian settlement in Switzerland (though it didn't exist as such then) and to have a local saint/martyr for the locals to venerate and to gather around. In this case Saint Maurice, the leader of the Theban Legion, whose tomb, bishop Theodorus apparently stumbled on after which a monastery was created at that place. Perhaps there was a need to stamp out a rival faith in that place and to show the Christian supremacy with a gory tale of Christian valor and suffering.

The further one looks, the more questions and inconsistencies one finds. More could be added to this story, but I will stop here as it might lead to distraction.
 

PERLOU

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Rimiquen et 2 autres ont aimé



Joëlle B.

@Jolle67632617

·
22 janv.

L’hôpital de Toulon a arrêté la vaccination sur les enfants suite à un sondage effectué auprès du personnel soignants ou la majorité d’entre eux ont refusé d’injecter les enfants. Source: Info collectif 83 Reaction19

The hospital of Toulon has stopped the vaccination of children following a survey carried out with the nursing staff where the majority of them refused to inject the children. Source: Info collective 83 Reaction19

the Sword a retweeté




Non Mais Dis Donc

@Non_MaisDisDonc

·
10 avr. 2021

Panneau d'avertissement
ÉNORME INFO La Fabrication de vac.. on ne sait pas trop ! Amine Umlil, docteur en pharmacie et pharmacologue au CTIAP « le plus gros problème, après ce que je viens de découvrir pour les 4 vaccins, n’ont pas finit de caractériser les substances ! »

HUGE INFO The Manufacture of vac. we do not know too! Amine Umlil, Doctor of Pharmacy and pharmacologist at CTIAP "the biggest problem, after what I just discovered for the 4 vaccines, have not finished characterizing the substances!"

 

Alejo

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
I must admit that I have not been following this thread as closely as I should have. But as I was dong my daily news round up, I came across this article that I think may be helpful.

It's about an event, a cometary event that took place 1500 years ago, I think it may add an extra piece of the puzzle.

The Hopewell airburst event, 1699–1567 years ago​

Abstract

Meteorites, Fe and Si-rich microspherules, positive Ir and Pt anomalies, and burned charcoal-rich Hopewell habitation surfaces demonstrate that a cosmic airburst event occurred over the Ohio River valley during the late Holocene. A comet-shaped earthwork was constructed near the airburst epicenter. Twenty-nine radiocarbon ages establish that the event occurred between 252 and 383 CE, a time when 69 near-Earth comets were documented. While Hopewell people survived the catastrophic event, it likely contributed to their cultural decline. The Hopewell airburst event expands our understanding of the frequency and impact of cataclysmic cosmic events on complex human societies.


Here's the one in Spanish that describes the article in Nature:

A group of scientists found evidence of a cosmic event that occurred 1,500 years ago and may have caused the abrupt cultural decline of an important North American Indian group. This theory is based on physical evidence, cultural clues and accounts from the descendants of these tribes.

Thus, researchers from the University of Cincinnati studied 11 archaeological sites in the regions formerly inhabited by the Hopewell (Virginia, USA), and it was there that they found an unusually high concentration of meteorites. According to the research, this event could have contributed greatly to their decline.

Falling debris from a comet created a huge explosion that left a large area of archaeological sites. The sites span three North American states and were home to the ancient Hopewell culture.

The meteorite fragments were identified by the telltale concentrations of iridium and platinum they contained.

"These micrometeorites have a chemical fingerprint. Cosmic phenomena, such as asteroids and comet explosions, leave behind large amounts of a rare element known as platinum," explained University of Cincinnati anthropology professor Kenneth Tankersley.

Tankersley revealed that in addition to platinum they also found iridium, another rare element found in events of this type. Precisely the presence of the latter was revealing, because thanks to it it has been possible to rule out the volcanic origin of the platinum. They also found a layer of charcoal that suggests that the area was exposed to fire and extreme heat.

In fact, these elements were also found in the jewelry worn by the Hopewells. Another evidence of this cosmic event can be observed near the town of Hopewell in Ohio, where a comet-shaped monument was built.

Aside from physical evidence, oral histories were also obtained, accounts from various Algonquin and Iroquois tribes descended from the Hopewell tell similar stories of the event, even today.
"The Miamis tell of a horned serpent that flew through the sky and dropped rocks on the earth before plummeting into the river. The Shawnee refer to a 'sky panther' that had the power to topple the forest. The Ottawa tell of a day when the sun fell from the sky. And the Wyandot tell of a dark cloud that crossed the sky and was destroyed by a dart of fire," Tankersley recounted.
The professor compared their accounts with the Russians' description of Tunguska, which was an explosion over the eastern Siberian taiga in 1908 that flattened approximately 80 million trees over an area of 2,150 km². According to new hypotheses, it was a large iron asteroid that entered the atmosphere at a relatively low altitude and then exited the atmosphere again.

Clearly, if the Hopewell experienced something similar to what happened in Russia the natives would have lost nut trees such as walnut trees, which provided a good source of food for the winter.

"When your corn crop fails, you can usually rely on a crop of trees. But if they are all destroyed, it would have been incredibly disruptive," opined David Lentz, professor of biology at the University of Cincinnati.

The researchers, whose study was published in the journal Nature Scientific Reports, are currently analyzing pollen trapped in layers of sediment to see if the comet burst changed the botanical landscape of the Ohio River Valley.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 
Top Bottom